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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Apeirohaon

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One on hand, I hope ESAM wins because who doesn't?

On the other hand, if ESAM wins his ego may grow larger than both Mango's and Leffen's =/
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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Goddamn, so goddamn close
So can we stop pretending that Pikachu isn't top 5?
 
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Fatmanonice

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. For a character as relatively flimsy as Palutena, who doesn't have the virtue of a reliable kill setup outside of her grab or a decent chance to capitalise on an opening due to the time it takes to land any of her smashes, it just seems an unnecessary complication.
I agree with this entirely because her basic design concept doesn't make a lick of sense and she was arguably the worst character in the game when it first game out. WFT is weird but you can see what the developers envisioned for her: someone who may not get kills easily on sheer strength but can easily wrack up damage, is threatening off stage, and is likely going to stick around for a while because of great recovery options and the fact that she can heal herself. Aside from the healing parts, it's largely the same basic concept behind Sheik, Metaknight, and Fox. As things stand, she's not as good as them but I don't feel like her concept betrays her.

For Palutena, on the other hand, I don't really know what they were trying to go for. The closet character she resembles is Zelda but, from a basic standpoint, Zelda has better kill and defensive options. Zelda's design makes sense (although isn't very good) because she's slow and usually forces characters to come to her. With Palutena, this doesn't work because she doesn't hit as hard plus she's much faster so she really doesn't need to camp. In a weird way, Vanilla Palutena plays like a mix of :4dk::4falco::4zelda: which is just... just... I mean... that's a weird combination, ain't it? She's like the Turducken of Smash. I feel like they tried to make her too unique for her own good because she feels like bits and pieces of other characters but doesn't excel at any of their traits. The way her customs are, however, make me wonder if they intended her to be a sort of dress up doll of a character and wanted the player to ultimately make her how they saw fit. Perhaps the developers didn't want the player to use her in her standard form but wanted them to experiment, thus making her standard specials underwhelming.
 

Cassio

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ESAM is cool but thank goodness he didnt win (yet). Id hate to see bandwaggoners and unneeded calls for nerfs.
 

Asdioh

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So when Pikachu got hit by Sheik's Dthrow->Upair, isn't he supposed to just jump away, instead of airdodging? Isn't that combo not guaranteed at kill %? Or am I wrong?
 

Blobface

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So when Pikachu got hit by Sheik's Dthrow->Upair, isn't he supposed to just jump away, instead of airdodging? Isn't that combo not guaranteed at kill %? Or am I wrong?
I do know that you can act out of hitstun at different times for different things. Airdodge first, then attack, then jump. I don't know if it can hit before you can jump though.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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ESAM is cool but thank goodness he didnt win (yet). Id hate to see bandwaggoners and unneeded calls for nerfs.
You will be disappointed. Nobody got as close as he just did. There will be a flood of awful pocket Pikachus just like with ZSS.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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No matter how this ends, we have an interesting top 4 of characters to talk about.
Falcon out of nowhere. Pikachu guaranteed top 3. Only one Sheik for once. Great stuff.
 
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bc1910

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Nothing nerf-worthy has jumped out at me for Pikachu besides the obvious Quick Attack which we can all agree is stupid. But ESAM was playing amazingly and using Thunder really, really well.

I was actually thinking how dumb Sheik still is, not Pikachu. Her Fair is just straight up bonkers. I'm starting to think needles are a convenient thing we can blame and nerfing them won't do as much as we think because Sheik is just amazing. Fair, Bouncing Fish, Fthrow, 50/50 kills from grab, I'm finding it harder and harder to blame needles for this character's dominance.

So when Pikachu got hit by Sheik's Dthrow->Upair, isn't he supposed to just jump away, instead of airdodging? Isn't that combo not guaranteed at kill %? Or am I wrong?
Guaranteed combo if they try to jump out (it registers as a true combo in training mode). They can airdodge out though because, in general, you can airdodge out of hitstun earlier than jumping, though not as stupidly early as Brawl.
 
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DanGR

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So when Pikachu got hit by Sheik's Dthrow->Upair, isn't he supposed to just jump away, instead of airdodging? Isn't that combo not guaranteed at kill %? Or am I wrong?
It's a 50:50 for the first ~20% or so (depending on rage/character) as dthrow->upair enters kill percentages.

:4greninja:'d
 
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NachoOfCheese

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I really don't care about what happens as long as ZeRo doesn't win. Don't get me wrong I like ZeRo but please it's like whenever he enters a tournament he isn't a variable. He's a constant.
 

bc1910

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Why on God's green Earth would you pick YOSHI?!

Yoshi's a BOTTOM TIER CHARACTER!
 
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Fatmanonice

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Why on God's Green Earth would you pick YOSHI?!
In a way, he's already proven his point. He took off two games off someone who swept EVO so he has absolutely nothing to lose by dropping these finals. He could purposely bomb the final game as Nolimar and people would still agree that it was a fantastic run.
 
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bc1910

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In a way, he's already proven his point. He took off two games off someone who swept EVO so he has absolutely nothing to lose by dropping these finals. He could bomb the final game as Samus and people would still agree that it was a fantastic run.
I guess you don't get the reference?

Hope the edit makes it clearer lol

In other news, the dream is dead. I really thought ESAM was gonna clutch WF though.
 
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Rashyboy05

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Welp, ZeRo won again. I honesty felt that Esam had more chances to reset the set if he had stick with Pikachu. That switch to Yoshi just sealed the deal imo.
 
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|RK|

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Welp, ZeRo won again. I honesty felt that Esam had more chances to reset the set if he had stick with Pikachu. That switch to Yoshi just made it obvious that he will lose imo.
I feel like ESAM just gives up all the time, and decides "**** it, I wonder how X would do?"
 

Aunt Jemima

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He should have gone Kirby and Popstar Shuffle his way to the blast zone imo.

Being serious though, does he switch all the time if he loses game 1?
 
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zeldasmash

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Zero wins a major = Surprise of the Year -_-

I have no qualms with how he plays, but it's just clear that he is just head over heels above everyone else when it comes to Smash 4.
 

Amadeus9

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Welp, ZeRo won again. I honesty felt that Esam had more chances to reset the set if he had stick with Pikachu. That switch to Yoshi just sealed the deal imo.
I think he thought it was over anyways. I don't think he thought he could repeat how he played in the Winners Finals, that it was a one time thing.

Zero wins a major = Surprise of the Year -_-

I have no qualms with how he plays, but it's just clear that he is just head over heels above everyone else when it comes to Smash 4.
Nope, it's now proven, he's not infallible.
 
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Illuminose

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can we just agree that pikachu is top 3

demonstrated to go even with sheik, kinda wrecks zero suit, good matchups against pretty much everyone else except luigi...is it really a question?
 

Cassio

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Since we're on the subject, here's my thoughts on Pikas MU's w/ notable characters. Let me qualify by explaining this a bit

+1/-1 would be what most people consider 60:40. These MUs are managable but disfavor one character.

0 is a catch all even, from 55:45 to 45:55 its hard to tell, I put "|" dividers where I think they land but its not that important.

+1:rosalina::4zss::4diddy::4yoshi::4rob::4villagerf::4falcon::4sonic: (not ordered)
0 :4sheik::4olimar::4fox::4lucario:|:4darkpit::4pit::4wario2::4mario::4luigi:|:4ness:
-1: :4metaknight:

I think this covers all MUs that could be considered -1 or 0 aside from characters I may not know too well and
:4lucina::4marth::4gaw: who are probably evenish

Other sword characters + little mac + falco also do ok vs pika. Heavy hitters can do well vs pika. Characters with good grounded tools can do well vs pika though I think I covered most already. He's a glass canon so honestly its not a hard task to beat one youre better then.
 
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Asdioh

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The Pikachu matchup with Sheik looked pretty even, except for the fact that Sheik had an easier time sealing stocks, regardless of reads/outplays. Lagless move->Bouncing Fish confirms work so often, and Pikachu has nothing quite that good. And Sheik's Fair/needles are dumb. I still don't understand what exactly was nerfed about Sheik's Fair this patch... the damage got nerfed by decimals, the knockback was increased a tiny amount to keep it similar due to the damage nerf... but "Sour spot hitbox now overlaps sweet spot hitbox (previously vice versa)" I don't understand what change this makes? Doesn't look like anything..
 

Nexin

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I agree with this entirely because her basic design concept doesn't make a lick of sense and she was arguably the worst character in the game when it first game out. WFT is weird but you can see what the developers envisioned for her: someone who may not get kills easily on sheer strength but can easily wrack up damage, is threatening off stage, and is likely going to stick around for a while because of great recovery options and the fact that she can heal herself. Aside from the healing parts, it's largely the same basic concept behind Sheik, Metaknight, and Fox. As things stand, she's not as good as them but I don't feel like her concept betrays her.

For Palutena, on the other hand, I don't really know what they were trying to go for. The closet character she resembles is Zelda but, from a basic standpoint, Zelda has better kill and defensive options. Zelda's design makes sense (although isn't very good) because she's slow and usually forces characters to come to her. With Palutena, this doesn't work because she doesn't hit as hard plus she's much faster so she really doesn't need to camp. In a weird way, Vanilla Palutena plays like a mix of :4dk::4falco::4zelda: which is just... just... I mean... that's a weird combination, ain't it? She's like the Turducken of Smash. I feel like they tried to make her too unique for her own good because she feels like bits and pieces of other characters but doesn't excel at any of their traits. The way her customs are, however, make me wonder if they intended her to be a sort of dress up doll of a character and wanted the player to ultimately make her how they saw fit. Perhaps the developers didn't want the player to use her in her standard form but wanted them to experiment, thus making her standard specials underwhelming.
I've actually been thinking about this recently, and I believe that they were originally planning on making her a zoner. It makes sense since considering she has defense oriented defaults, smash attacks with massive range and windboxes, and being below average in CQC. The main problem with her default however is that there seems to have been many bad design decisions that completelt prevent that gameplan from being effective, such as her overall miserable frame data, having no good ways to end a stock, and autoreticle being better at forcing approaches than stopping them.

That's what I think happened with her default moveset. If anybody disagrees, feel free to add anything.
 
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**Gilgamesh**

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:4sheik: vs :4pikachu:is slightly in Sheik's Favor. They both can combo each other hard while they both have a hard-time edge guarding off-stage. However sheik has an easier time killing then Pikachu while also having a projectile that is more convenient then Pikachu's. Just a short summary of the MU

PS: Let's not forget during Winner Finals that ZeRo SD'ed a game to Esam when he was in the lead.
 

ParanoidDrone

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The Pikachu matchup with Sheik looked pretty even, except for the fact that Sheik had an easier time sealing stocks, regardless of reads/outplays. Lagless move->Bouncing Fish confirms work so often, and Pikachu has nothing quite that good. And Sheik's Fair/needles are dumb. I still don't understand what exactly was nerfed about Sheik's Fair this patch... the damage got nerfed by decimals, the knockback was increased a tiny amount to keep it similar due to the damage nerf... but "Sour spot hitbox now overlaps sweet spot hitbox (previously vice versa)" I don't understand what change this makes? Doesn't look like anything..
In the area where the sourspot and sweetspot hitboxes overlap, Sheik used to get the sweetspot. Now she gets the sourspot, so to sweetspot she needs to tipper it.
Dabuz got pretty unlucky in this tournament at times. This was an anomaly performance for him, and top 12 is still amazing. Yet I can't help but think there were glimpses of the Melee Peach syndrome in Rosalina - can she really keep up with all these fast top tiers?
Eh, that's a tricky one. I don't think Rosalina will ever be bad as long as Luma is a thing (and provided its numbers aren't completely gutted) but I can definitely see her falling from grace as people figure out optimal anti-Luma strategies. She just requires a lot of matchup-specific counterplay so unless you have a Rosalina in your area odds are you won't have much practice.
 

Asdioh

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In the area where the sourspot and sweetspot hitboxes overlap, Sheik used to get the sweetspot. Now she gets the sourspot, so to sweetspot she needs to tipper it.
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I imagine sourspot Fairs are good for combos as well, sometimes even better maybe? Tbh my main gripes with Sheik, besides needles and Fair being too lagless, are that Fair and Bouncing Fish seem to have such crazy big hitboxes. I don't know for sure, but it seems like Fair is disjointed, and hits farther out than you would expect. I know BF is disjointed at the end, and usually when I see Fthrow->BF, it looks like it shouldn't connect, but it does because there's a gigantic arcing hitbox up top.
 
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