Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[A_Kae]

Okay thanks guys. So my memory was wrong, Ganon's Fsmash did end up finishing (no wonder I didn't remember getting punished).

This means everything still followed the rules of priority. My jab was overpowered by his Fsmash and because my hurtbox wasn't there to get hit I went through the recoil.

Now I want to know: what is the formula for determining the exact amount of recoil (in frames)? I doubt we know this one.

The amount of recoil lag is the same for both characters, and is based on the total damage of both moves (even if one out-prioritizes the other). Beyond that, we don't know.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

So what's the deal with Lucas? There's just no love for this kid. He's the least talked-about DLC character by far, which I think is weird because he's my favorite of the bunch.

Anyway, is he viable? Can he handle the top-tier? Why doesn't anybody play as him?

 

[warionumbah2]

Meta knight in the top 8 of a major... Oh how far we have come

The journey...has just begun.

 

[Smog Frog]

So what's the deal with Lucas? There's just no love for this kid. He's the least talked-about DLC character by far, which I think is weird because he's my favorite of the bunch.

Anyway, is he viable? Can he handle the top-tier? Why doesn't anybody play as him?

he struggles against top tiers, but they're all winnable. i know for a fact i hate and the most when i'm playing . also **** in general.

 

[TriTails]

So what's the deal with Lucas? There's just no love for this kid. He's the least talked-about DLC character by far, which I think is weird because he's my favorite of the bunch.

Anyway, is he viable? Can he handle the top-tier? Why doesn't anybody play as him?

Well, I have heard his Z-air is crazy. His recovery is also much better than Ness simply on how he can recover from abyss with just PK Thunder and still make it back. There's this one thing about Ness' PKT2 that when you get hit by it, it slows down and as a result, he gains lesser distance and possibly gimp himself (So I guess body-blocking Ness' PKT can go either way). Lucas' has nothing like that.

Aside from that, I do know his PK Fire is annoying, but I main Luigi so meh. Either I shield and get in patiently or I tomahawk over them. Fail to to either = Grab.

I feel that he is viable. He is a spacing monster and his throw game is really really gud. But I can see his tether holding him back... I think he's solid high tier tho.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So what's the deal with Lucas? There's just no love for this kid. He's the least talked-about DLC character by far, which I think is weird because he's my favorite of the bunch.

Anyway, is he viable? Can he handle the top-tier? Why doesn't anybody play as him?

All characters are viable.

 

[Smog Frog]

strikes me as "viable with secondary". he struggles against some metagame staples( mostly), but overall his matchups are winnable. now, winning his matchups? that remains to be seen. but he definitely has a strong keepaway game, and a strong anti-zoning game. pk fire stuffs out other projectiles and replaces them with its fire burst hitbox, zair eats projectiles, he can absorb energy projectiles, and he can reflect projectiles, which is strong anti-zoning if i do say so myself. his neutral is pretty simple yet effective by virtue of being a strong zoner and anti-zoner. his disadvantage is unique. pk fire and magnet momentum shenanigans can be confusing when trying to catch his landing. his advantage state is pretty good, too. offstage, he has a lingering dair that can cover the edge and generally beat all recoveries without a hitbox, and he can cover the ledge with a lingering dsmash. if he grabs you(which now doesnt require a hard read as he has setups into it), he's getting a large amount of %/ending your stock. his combos/strings are pretty long and damaging(nair *3->dair is my preferred nair string and does 40ish % if all hits connect), and often leave him in a good spot.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Where did you hear this? I've definitely seen moves beat other moves.

Well, I've experienced it quite frequently cuz I play heavies. Most of the time when disjoint to disjoint connect, I experienced what you've did. Why? There's no hurtbox on the disjoint, so out prioritizing in terms of % just causes clank. Similar thing happened in Brawl where I land Fsmash as Ganon on Marth's non tipped fsmash. It clanked.

Edit: 'd by DanGR.

 

[Tainic]

All characters are viable.

No.

So what's the deal with Lucas? There's just no love for this kid. He's the least talked-about DLC character by far, which I think is weird because he's my favorite of the bunch.

Anyway, is he viable? Can he handle the top-tier? Why doesn't anybody play as him?

He has a strong zoning game but his awful grab severely hampers him, I can see him struggling against speedy threats who can just rush him down to death. Since he relies on zoning, waiting for a breach to grab and combo, his natural weakness are rushdowns who will just be all over him in a matter of seconds, making it very difficult for Lucas to zone properly and have an opening.

 

[Wintermelon43]

No.



He has a strong zoning game but his awful grab severely hampers him, I can see him struggling against speedy threats who can just rush him down to death. Since he relies on zoning, waiting for a breach to grab and combo, his natural weakness are rushdowns who will just be all over him in a matter of seconds, making it very difficult for Lucas to zone properly and have an opening.

Viable means a character who can win. ANYONE could win if they're skilled enough. This isn't melee or Brawl

 

[Wintropy]

Viable means a character who can win. ANYONE could win if they're skilled enough. This isn't melee or Brawl

In theory, any character can win. Context is important here: there is a distinct contrast between winning in a friendly free-for-all and 1v1 Grand Finals at a major.

Palutena could, in theory, win EVO with her default set, but it would be an incredibly difficult task. She would be crushed by more viable characters.

The theory therefore shouldn't be approached with the question, "Can this character win?"

The question should be, "Can this character win often and reliably?"

 

[PUK]

Viable mean can consitently win at high level (i mean more than local). To be viable you need to have no hard counter, or at least they have to be rare in the meta. Plus you need not o bad MU against most top tier. So tier are defined by viability and define viability.

 

[Smog Frog]

a skilled can beat any

dank memes aside, can hold his own up close. frame 2 jab, frame 3 disjointed dtilt, and frame 4 disjointed utilt all go a long way in helping him hold his space. dtilt in particular sets up a grab.

 

[Luigi player]

Now for something completely different... Well, it's Falco ranting, so nothing different there... Still, behold! Hitboxes! First time I ever did hitboxes and I don't have any means to capture stuff, so potato.

Let me ask you this question: are these moves abusable? No? Then why does Falco have no hitbox for the last half of his Falco Phantasm? This is more or less absolute BS considering that as a spike, Falco Phantasm is frame 19 and is missing 50% of its hitbox. Even without the ability to spike, Fox Illusion is so safe and it's frame 21 that does 3%. Seriously, you could give Falco Phantasm a full hitbox and Fox Illusion 4% more damage and they wouldn't be that much of a problem.

Try to remember how it was in Brawl for a second.

...it should be pretty obvious then.

Falco could easily sideB through his opponents ALL THE TIME without someone being able to react to it (and get hit) while being pretty safe afterwards even if he didn't hit / it got shielded. I mean yeah the lasers helped, but still. In Smash4 I sometimes had Falco sideB through me and it kinda feels good not to get hit, lol. Though it does seem a little wierd. They could give the latter part a non-spike hitbox, then it could combo into aerials like Fox', but that could be super annoying, so maybe just low hitstun on it.

 

[Jabejazz]

Annoying, maybe. But more combo setups for Falco isn't too much to ask, considering he has nothing else. If you ain't gonna fix his sub-par neutral, give him more and better rewards for getting in, like you're doing with MK.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Viable mean can consitently win at high level (i mean more than local). To be viable you need to have no hard counter, or at least they have to be rare in the meta. Plus you need not o bad MU against most top tier. So tier are defined by viability and define viability.

The last point actually don't matter. If it's just a disadvantaged MU, then it's just a disadvantage match up or it could be in your favor if your opponent doesn't know about it. Which is a valid variable to factor in due to 50+ characters to deal with.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Annoying, maybe. But more combo setups for Falco isn't too much to ask, considering he has nothing else. If you ain't gonna fix his sub-par neutral, give him more and better rewards for getting in, like you're doing with MK.

Have you been keeping up with the patches?

 

[Minordeth]

Yeah, Falco kinda gets crazy reward once he gets his slow self in. His string tree seems to be ever expanding.

 

[Jabejazz]

Yes, but the ways things are shaping, his laser is being completely ignored, or left as an off-stage poking tool, and they're instead focusing on increasing his rewards on getting in. A worse version of MK, if anything. Either they're planning on making a similarly polarised character with Falco, or they have no idea how to tune his laser. Admittedly it is a weak comparison.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

It could be "DK is combo food" bias but yeah Falco's combo game is crazy good.

Yes, but the ways things are shaping, his laser is being completely ignored, or left as an off-stage poking tool, and they're instead focusing on increasing his rewards on getting in. A worse version of MK, if anything. Either they're planning on making a similarly polarised character with Falco, or they have no idea how to tune his laser. Admittedly it is a weak comparison.

Dude if it's that big of a deal go play Melee or Brawl or go main MK.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Before it starts, my thoughts on Falco lasers:

I don't know why everyone keeps suggesting Falco get better lasers, when the rest of his moves (aerials, smashes, tilts, [non neutral B] specials) are all pretty good. Every single move doesn't have to be good in this game. This isn't PM, where they failed to notice that Ganon's up tilt and Olimar's chain recovery were purposefully designed to be bad (and had to fix it). There are moves in this game, that just aren't good. We should honestly focus on how the character, as a collection of moves works, instead of wanting old gimmicks back (without offering valid reasoning why Smash 4 Falco needs buffed lasers). He can't chaingrab or have hyper defensive auto canceling lasers, because this game functions differently than Brawl. Something like that just wouldn't work in this game. The closest thing that would, is Mega Man's 2/1% non auto canceling pellets. They travel half the distance of lasers, MM has less aerial speed than Falco, and MM sacrifices his jab, ftilt, and nair to use them. Buffed lasers would be insane, and would completely invalidate characters like Robin (Falco vs Robin already sounds rough as it is. Just imagine Falco had a way to safely harass one of the slowest characters in the game).
As an occasional poster/lurker, this bi-weekly "give Falco his old lasers" topic is getting a tad annoying. He's completely different to Brawl Falco, which was completely different to Melee Falco.

 

[Cassio]

So I think one of the less talked about but very important mobility aspects of smash 4 is initial dash speed. Ive actually been hoping to see these numbers for smash 4, but so far they dont exist yet and I assume theyre hard to get. For comparison here's Brawl's, where theres usually correlation between the games on mobility traits.

Dash/Foxtrot Speed

1. Fox (2.10)
2. Captain Falcon (2.05)
3. Falco (1.90)
4. Samus (1.86)
5. Lucario (1.80)
5. Pikachu (1.80)
7. Meta Knight (1.75)
8. Diddy Kong (1.70)
8. Sheik (1.70)
8. Wolf (1.70)
8. Zero Suit Samus (1.70)
12. Donkey Kong (1.60)
12. Squirtle (1.60)
14. Ike (1.50)
14. Mario (1.50)
14. Marth (1.50)
14. Mr. Game & Watch (1.50)
14. Peach (1.50)
14. Pit (1.50)
14. Sonic (1.50)
14. Toon Link (1.50)
22. Ice Climbers (1.40)
22. Ivysaur (1.40)
22. Jigglypuff (1.40)
22. King Dedede (1.40)
22. Kirby (1.40)
22. Olimar (1.40)
28. Yoshi (1.33)
29. Charizard (1.30)
29. Ganondorf (1.30)
29. Link (1.30)
29. Lucas (1.30)
29. Ness (1.30)
29. R.O.B. (1.30)
29. Wario (1.30)
36. Luigi (1.28)
37. Zelda (1.25)
38. Snake (1.10)
39. Bowser (1.00)

Character emphasis mine. Im pretty sure in smash 4 all characters received a nice boost in their dash speed (its one of the first differences you notice between Brawl and Sm4sh), and exists as part of a characters "burst movement" package. In the past Ive talked about how important burst movement is for offense and I think its reflected in the characters we see in red. The characters in green I feel had an improvement in their initial dash compared to Brawl though didnt test this. And Sonic in Blue I think explains why its easier to play him as a more defensive character.

Of course the outcasts samus, falco, and lucario demonstrate that its not enough to have good burst speed, you have to have good options after the burst to take advantage. But perhaps its an area for potential growth.

I cannot speak for everyone, but the Meta Knight community has not had a history of underrating their character. In fact I think the community overall has had one of the more realistic set of expectations for their character. They're calling for buffs because generally players want a top tier character. Typically the Smash community outside of the Meta Knight circle is as dumb as a post when it comes to the character, so this disconnect is not surprising.

As for Meta Knight's recent success, especially against Sheik, I chop a lot of that up to match up ignorance. The only player who does well against Sheik who does not make crucial mistakes and go unpunished is Ito. Leo for instance was very unpolished and sloppy. Mr. R simply did not know how to handle him.

I definitely see Sheik having the match up in her favor. Barring any nerfs to Sheik, give it time.

As for the ZSS thing, I have been skeptical about that match up being bad for us, but that is one of the only things I generally disagree with from the majority.

That's understandable, I just thought it was weird someone was implied to have poor reasoning for believing the MU to be even. Maybe its not but its not that odd.

We'll find out more about the MU soon though, with great players like tyrant preparing to put more time into the game, and Mr. R dedicated to improving his MK.

 

[A_Kae]

So I think one of the less talked about but very important mobility aspects of smash 4 is initial dash speed. Ive actually been hoping to see these numbers for smash 4, but so far they dont exist yet and I assume theyre hard to get. For comparison here's Brawl's, where theres usually correlation between the games on mobility traits.

Is this what you've been looking for (the 'Dash Init' column)? http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Before it starts, my thoughts on Falco lasers:

I don't know why everyone keeps suggesting Falco get better lasers, when the rest of his moves (aerials, smashes, tilts, [non neutral B] specials) are all pretty good. Every single move doesn't have to be good in this game. This isn't PM, where they failed to notice that Ganon's up tilt and Olimar's chain recovery were purposefully designed to be bad (and had to fix it). There are moves in this game, that just aren't good. We should honestly focus on how the character, as a collection of moves works, instead of wanting old gimmicks back (without offering valid reasoning why Smash 4 Falco needs buffed lasers). He can't chaingrab or have hyper defensive auto canceling lasers, because this game functions differently than Brawl. Something like that just wouldn't work in this game. The closest thing that would, is Mega Man's 2/1% non auto canceling pellets. They travel half the distance of lasers, MM has less aerial speed than Falco, and MM sacrifices his jab, ftilt, and nair to use them. Buffed lasers would be insane, and would completely invalidate characters like Robin (Falco vs Robin already sounds rough as it is. Just imagine Falco had a way to safely harass one of the slowest characters in the game).
As an occasional poster/lurker, this bi-weekly "give Falco his old lasers" topic is getting a tad annoying. He's completely different to Brawl Falco, which was completely different to Melee Falco.

I like the "don't use that move" philosophy when it comes to this stuff.
It's pretty complicated. If a move is bad, don't use that move.

 

[Jabejazz]

As an occasional poster/lurker, this bi-weekly "give Falco his old lasers" topic is getting a tad annoying. He's completely different to Brawl Falco, which was completely different to Melee Falco.

That's of course assuming people suggest for AC lasers when there is a plethora of changes that could be applied to make his laser at the very least attractive. But regardless, I entirely agree with you.

Dude if it's that big of a deal go play Melee or Brawl or go main MK.

It was much more of an observation than a complaint, but your abrasive reply is duly noted.

 

[Routa]

I like the "don't use that move" philosophy when it comes to this stuff.
It's pretty complicated. If a move is bad, don't use that move.

Unless you want to bring hype and be badass.

 

[Cassio]

Is this what you've been looking for (the 'Dash Init' column)? http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333

Toomai is a god, my goodness. Thank you!

Fox -2.4
Little Mac - 2.05
Falco - 1.9
Samus - 1.86
Pikachu - 1.8
Lucario - 1.8
MK - 1.75
1.7-------
C. Falcon
ZSS
Sheik
Diddy Kong
1.6---------
Greninja
Brawler
Donkey Kong
Mario
D Mario
Pacman
Bowser Jr
Gunner
Zelda
----------
Duck Hunt - 1.55
1.5 --------
Sonic
Palutena
Marth
Lucina
T Link
WFT
Pit
D. Pit
Rosalina
G&W
Shulk
Kirby
Ike
Megaman
Peach
Villager
Robin
1.4--------
Olimar
DDD
Jiggs
-----------
Yoshi - 1.33
1.3---------
ROB
Swordfighter,
Wario
Ness
Link
Ganon
---------
Luigi - 1.28
Charizard - 1
Bowser - 1

Guess I was wrong about Yoshi and Luigi, and that initial dashes were universally improved.

 

[Antonykun]

Before it starts, my thoughts on Falco lasers:

I don't know why everyone keeps suggesting Falco get better lasers, when the rest of his moves (aerials, smashes, tilts, [non neutral B] specials) are all pretty good. Every single move doesn't have to be good in this game. This isn't PM, where they failed to notice that Ganon's up tilt and Olimar's chain recovery were purposefully designed to be bad (and had to fix it). There are moves in this game, that just aren't good. We should honestly focus on how the character, as a collection of moves works, instead of wanting old gimmicks back (without offering valid reasoning why Smash 4 Falco needs buffed lasers). He can't chaingrab or have hyper defensive auto canceling lasers, because this game functions differently than Brawl. Something like that just wouldn't work in this game. The closest thing that would, is Mega Man's 2/1% non auto canceling pellets. They travel half the distance of lasers, MM has less aerial speed than Falco, and MM sacrifices his jab, ftilt, and nair to use them. Buffed lasers would be insane, and would completely invalidate characters like Robin (Falco vs Robin already sounds rough as it is. Just imagine Falco had a way to safely harass one of the slowest characters in the game).
As an occasional poster/lurker, this bi-weekly "give Falco his old lasers" topic is getting a tad annoying. He's completely different to Brawl Falco, which was completely different to Melee Falco.

I personally disagree with the notions that ANY move must be bad. A move doesn't have to be good it just have to fulfill a purpose decently. Bad recoveries tend to be good Attacks, for example (there are of course many exceptions like duck hunt but even then the move can take the duo pretty far). Little Mac and Doc come to mind.

No Falco's Lasers are not bad. They serve its purpose of extending Falco's presence even beyond the tip of Reflector. It's not amazing but It serves its purpose. Buffing them to the point of "Bring Brawl Lasers" would turn Falco into Smash 4 Sheik, and Unholy master of CQC and Keepaway

I really REALLY wish @ Shaya would infract people who make baseless patch suggestions. No You do not play Falco so stop acting like you know him so much to the point you can actually balance him

 

[SpottedCerberus]

a skilled can beat any

Of course, the Roy would have to be a lot more skilled than the Fox.

 

[Kami~]

Edit: Also, is Kamicario vs ZeRo online yet? Whatever happened to that?

Zero requested that he doesn't want practice sets uploaded so no one will be seeing it ;-;. I played one of the best sets I've ever played though

 

[Baby_Sneak]

One change I would like to see for all characters is for them to had sheiks Fair to actually have block strings for pressure.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Did Mr. R pick up MK after losing to leo or has that been going on?

Also pikachu is top 3.

 

[DanGR]

@ Kami~ Is the TO not going to upload it just because Zero requested that he not? Are TOs in other regions that spineless?

 

[warionumbah2]

Did Mr. R pick up MK after losing to leo or has that been going on.

 

[Antonykun]

One change I would like to see for all characters is for them to had sheiks Fair to actually have block strings for pressure.

you really want sonic to be safer on shield?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

One change I would like to see for all characters is for them to had sheiks Fair to actually have block strings for pressure.

That's a big change.

 

[Minordeth]

Falco's lasers aren't bad, they are just far more contextual than they have been in previous iterations. I typically use them as "momentum interrupters" against faster characters. Of course, this means they are also more read based rather than, well, brainless. Being able to make a Fox or Falcon suffer a bit of hitstun as they try to maneuver into an advantageous position is actually rather valuable.

Strategically shutting down even just a dash from the Captain can pay dividends for Falco.

 

[Zorai]

Zero requested that he doesn't want practice sets uploaded so no one will be seeing it ;-;. I played one of the best sets I've ever played though

Just upload it IMO.

 

[Espy Rose]

Pikachu functions different from brawl so I'm not fond of the argument, half the cast could argue a strong MU with him using a similar line of thought. As for my assessment between his recent nerfs and a sense that sonic is overrated I'll admit to bias.

Of course Pikachu functions differently. He's worse. Sonic functions pretty much the same and he got better for it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Viable means a character who can win. ANYONE could win if they're skilled enough. This isn't melee or Brawl

Sheik, ZSS, Fox, ... and Villager are the only characters that win tournaments bigger than regional level at this point. This game isn't very balanced. If you can't beat Sheik then you're unviable by default ... and a lot of characters can't beat Sheik or have rather unrealistic chances to beat her - that includes "good" characters like Rosalina.