Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Kami~]

@ Kami~ Is the TO not going to upload it just because Zero requested that he not? Are TOs in other regions that spineless?

This was not in tourney. Was an unofficial set in a hotel, lol. Someone recorded it but zero requested not to upload, it's his right. Nothing wrong with that

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Zero requested that he doesn't want practice sets uploaded so no one will be seeing it ;-;. I played one of the best sets I've ever played though

I remember someone on youtube commented on a ZeRo vs Nairo casual set, saying that ZeRo obviously only uploaded his wins. But then ZeRo responded and said that he uploads all sets that he records. Huh. Interesting.

 

[DanGR]

This was not in tourney. Was an unofficial set in a hotel, lol. Someone recorded it but zero requested not to upload, it's his right. Nothing wrong with that

That's way more understandable than it taking place at the venue. Thanks for the follow-up.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I would still like a buff to the endlag of lasers. You can't have Brawl lasers without having some stupid matchups but a bit of speedup wouldn't be bad. That or a bit of run speed would be nice. He's pretty good now. With a slight push he's up to serious freaking threat territory.

 

[Langston777]

kami i love you *paws u

 

[Ffamran]

Try to remember how it was in Brawl for a second.

...it should be pretty obvious then.

Falco could easily sideB through his opponents ALL THE TIME without someone being able to react to it (and get hit) while being pretty safe afterwards even if he didn't hit / it got shielded. I mean yeah the lasers helped, but still. In Smash4 I sometimes had Falco sideB through me and it kinda feels good not to get hit, lol. Though it does seem a little wierd. They could give the latter part a non-spike hitbox, then it could combo into aerials like Fox', but that could be super annoying, so maybe just low hitstun on it.

I know and I think PM Falco has the same Brawl Falco Phantasm. It was fast and it was ridiculous. Fox and Falco can still do IAI/P (instant aerial Illusion/Phantasm), but they're nowhere near this fast. Seriously, look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Ifo7uiIsg. Also, apparently, Fox Illusion and Falco Phantasm were intangible, but I don't know where... Startup, maybe? If so, then they were Smash 4 Sheik's Vanish, but linear and much more spammable.

In Smash 4, no intangibility frames from what I know and they don't travel as fast. Falco Phantasm's end lag was also changed from 50 total frames to 61 total frames. Yeah... Let's sum up Brawl Falco as bad ideas upon bad ideas... For Falco, it's worse in a sense that it was changed and I think it resembles Melee Falco Phantasm where it's not as stupid; it's slightly slower with 61 total frames instead of Melee's 59 and both are more reasonable than Brawl's. The major difference is the hitbox which is more of an issue with safety and function rather than let's make this Brawl Falco Phantasm. No. Of all the moves Falco has, only Blaster and Falco Phantasm pales in comparison to Brawl, but for good reason since Brawl's were just utterly broken. Compared to Melee, they're worse, but closer and less abusive. For normals such as jab, tilts, Smashes, and aerials, that's up to you, but I prefer Smash 4's since he feels so strong and they function and work together well. Dair? Well, it was broken in Melee - programming error - and left as is in Brawl. Frame 5 spike that you couldn't tech because of a programming error in Melee and it was just stupidly fast for how strong it is. If it was like Ryu's where it was fast, didn't have a lot of range or active frames, and was a weak spike, that would be fine, but frame 5?

As of right now, Falco Phantasm has 3 hitboxes: a ground hitbox, a ground target hitbox, and an air target hitbox. The ground and ground target both do 7% with the ground target doing more knockback and the air target is the one that spikes. What they could do is put a late hit that does say, 2% just for safety. So half the move is sweet-spot and where you want to aim for damage, comboing - Falco can setup a Bair using Falco Phantasm on the ground and grounded opponents - and spiking if you manage to land it while the late hit is just there for safety which this move doesn't really have compared to Fox Illusion. At the same time, it wouldn't change that Falco Phantasm trails behind Falco which lets him do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffJebEF8dQs.

Before it starts, my thoughts on Falco lasers:

I don't know why everyone keeps suggesting Falco get better lasers, when the rest of his moves (aerials, smashes, tilts, [non neutral B] specials) are all pretty good. Every single move doesn't have to be good in this game. This isn't PM, where they failed to notice that Ganon's up tilt and Olimar's chain recovery were purposefully designed to be bad (and had to fix it). There are moves in this game, that just aren't good. We should honestly focus on how the character, as a collection of moves works, instead of wanting old gimmicks back (without offering valid reasoning why Smash 4 Falco needs buffed lasers). He can't chaingrab or have hyper defensive auto canceling lasers, because this game functions differently than Brawl. Something like that just wouldn't work in this game. The closest thing that would, is Mega Man's 2/1% non auto canceling pellets. They travel half the distance of lasers, MM has less aerial speed than Falco, and MM sacrifices his jab, ftilt, and nair to use them. Buffed lasers would be insane, and would completely invalidate characters like Robin (Falco vs Robin already sounds rough as it is. Just imagine Falco had a way to safely harass one of the slowest characters in the game).
As an occasional poster/lurker, this bi-weekly "give Falco his old lasers" topic is getting a tad annoying. He's completely different to Brawl Falco, which was completely different to Melee Falco.

A lot of people want Brawl Falco back and a lot of people want Melee Falco back. Reason why PM was created and a reason why people did not like Smash 4 Falco. It doesn't help that Falco is a different character in each game including PM despite how close that Falco is to Melee Falco. ZeRo suggested that Falco get his auto-cancel lasers back, people want his old Dair back, people want his shine back, and people want all sorts of things back for Falco, but few people think about the consequences of those tools. Case in point: people hated Brawl Meta Knight because he was broken and wanted him banned in Brawl and nerfed in Smash 4. Well, he was "nerfed" or toned down in Smash 4 and people refuse to play him because he isn't Brawl Meta Knight. Hypocrites. The consequences of a Brawl Meta Knight in Smash 4 would be extreme and Meta Knight already proves he's a dangerous character, but what if he was much more overwhelming? Do we want another #1 character who overwhelms the entire cast?

Define "better". When I ask for Falco's Blaster to be "buffed" or changed, I'm not asking for auto-cancel back or severely reduced end lag that lets Falco mimic auto-canceling or following projectiles like Guile and King can do with Sonic Boom and Venom Strike. Those options are "better", but in a way that would significantly hurt other characters as we all know from Melee and Brawl. What about PM? Every character there was made significantly stronger than in other games, so their options are much stronger, but even still, you can see PM Falco interrupting your actions heavily by using Blaster. So, I don't want what Luigi's Fireballs, Mega Man's lemons, or Sheik's single Needle do, but some people do. What I want is something similar to Kyo's Yamibarai where getting hit by 1 of Falco's laser only puts you at most, 0 frames of advantage at max range. 0 frames means it's a guessing game of what Falco and the other character will do. Right now, it's negative on hit regardless of where Falco fires and it's made worse by Fox having reduced end lag on all of his Blasters. It's not just a bad projectile, but a bad projectile overall where its reward is just pathetic compared to every projectile in the game.

While I agree with that not all moves should be good, but you can define that differently as well. Take Ganondorf's Up Tilt, the Volcano Kick, and Captain Falcon's Knee. Are they good moves? No. You cannot throw these moves out willy-nilly like with their Uairs or Nairs. At the same time, they are good moves. Why? Punishment. These moves punish the hell out of people and they serve that function well. We've seen this countless times when people air dodge Captain Falcon and people who misjudge the timing of Ganondorf's Volcano Kick. PM's philosophy while deeply influenced by Melee is very much different than 64, Brawl, Smash 4 and other games and developers' philosophies. You can't really say they "fixed" Ganondorf's Utilt when they changed it to function differently and work with a different Ganondorf, a Ganondorf who is more of a brutal brawler than a meticulous counter-fighter. Their ideas of what Ganondorf should be is different from what Sora Ltd. and Nintendo think and what other people think. Some people want a sword-wielding Ganondorf, so want him with a trident and be more magically-inclined, and some want him to be an evil rainbow lobbing madman who uses capoeira. Fixing for me is when something clearly doesn't work as intended such as Wolf's 60 frame meteor cancel compared to everyone's which was around 25. That's something that seems really off or something like Smash 4 where multi-hit moves could spike people when they shouldn't like Meta Knight's Bair and Falco's Fair, especially when those two can go really deep off stage.

The idea I want when it comes to "buffing" and "nerfing" is refinement. What does Falco's Blaster do? In Melee, Brawl, and PM, it forced approaches and was used to approach... heavily and overwhelmingly alongside quick, chipping damage that interrupted you, sometimes followups, and edgeguarding by messing with your momentum. In Smash 4? Approaching? Nope, too much end lag. Force approaches? Too much end lag. Damage? Yes. Followups? Yes. Edgeguarding? Sometimes, but mostly through gimping by abusing the 30 frame can't grab ledge after getting hit. Here's the thing, almost every projectile can do the last 3, damage, followups, and edgeguarding and some more like Triple D's Gordos are traps and Zelda's Din's Fire and Sheik's Burst Grenade kills if you manage to land them. Falco's doesn't do any of that and does them worse compared to Fox's default and Impact Blaster. Falco's Burst Blaster even does them worse than Fox's default Blaster. There's a difference between having a bad move and a move that is just strictly under-performing compared to everything else. What I want is refinement of what Falco's Blaster does. Force approaches by making you think you have to approach like Ryu's Hadouken and Kyo's Yamibarai? Hell yes. Forcing approaches and approaching like Sheik's Needles and King's Venom Strike? Hell no, especially when you consider that a lot of characters have issues with projectiles compared to other fighting games. Approaching like Leona's Earring Bombs would be fine since there's a ton of startup letting you see her use it, proceed to approach, and you can think of a plan to stop it, but Sheik and King's projectiles come out quickly, so that's not much room to think other than, "Great... Sheik stuff".

That idea of refinement can be applied to every character. Diddy, Fox, and Marth's jab, Charizard's U-throw and D-throw, Dr. Mario's Up Smash, Fox's Blaster, Robin's Thunder, and Ike's almost everything. The idea is not "let's make this character super powerful", but "let's make this character or move work better under its role if it has one and if not, then let's define one". You could look at Ganondorf's jab and think about it. What does it do? Well, it's a jab, but more often then not, Ganondorf players will use Ftilt and Dtilt to push people back and measure space. And for quick attacks and get off me options, Ganondorf players will be inclined to use Nair and Uair instead. Ganondorf's jab is good since you can get decent damage and it has decent range, but bad in a sense that it doesn't do anything better that his other moves do. So, relative to his moveset, it's okay, but relative to other characters, it's not good. It's like people saying pre-patch Diddy's jab was bad. Relative to his moveset, it was bad, but relative to other characters, it was probably decent. Now, it's good since it links better. It was refined to work better by linking to rapid jab better. So, what do we do with Ganondorf's jab? Not by making it frame 3 like in Melee, but perhaps doing something about the end lag, damage, or startup, so something like frame 5 or making the end lag short enough where Ganondorf can jab, measure space quickly, challenge you quickly, and bait you quickly, but not so fast where he can start jab chaining people which wouldn't work since the knockback is fairly strong on his jab.

 

[Minordeth]

Honestly, Nintendo isn't going to buff something as fundamental as the movement speed of a character. Increasing the dash/walk/whatever speed is a massive buff that has far more unpredictable results than changing a single hitbox or buffing frame data on select moves. Changing Falco's speed noticeably would probably make him a broken character. He already has a fast initial dash, couple that with increased movement speed, and you have (maybe) a slightly slower Fox with absolutely suffocating strings and high damage output.

I could see them changing his laser endlag, but that seems to go against what they are pushing Falco toward - which seems to be a deliberate CQC-combo-string based fighter.

I do think that effectively utilizing his lasers is largely unexplored, which is to be expected when you almost completely revamp a character.

 

[oldkingcroz]

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a video on how to beat Sheik from Zero, in the likes of his how to beat Luigi video. I'll be sure to comment that on his next vid'.
Kami~ sounds a little modest, perhaps a little more modest than Leo the Meta Knight main, but still I can see more benefits to posting the video (opposed to not). Zero will be able to see his mistakes (and improve as a player), and the community will be able to more easily understand countering Sheik. Mr R's set with Leo helped me (and a lot of other players, I assume) understand Sheik & MK a little bit better. It's sometimes embarrassing to lose (I know that feeling), but everybody loses, so there is no shame in that.

 

[Minordeth]

Kami could also just describe the set, or his take-aways, without compromising the desires and goodwill of another player. I mean, this is a forum. We use our words here.

 

[|RK|]

This was not in tourney. Was an unofficial set in a hotel, lol. Someone recorded it but zero requested not to upload, it's his right. Nothing wrong with that

Well, can you talk about it a little? What do you think the Lucario/Sheik matchup looks like?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sheik, ZSS, Fox, ... and Villager are the only characters that win tournaments bigger than regional level at this point. This game isn't very balanced. If you can't beat Sheik then you're unviable by default ... and a lot of characters can't beat Sheik or have rather unrealistic chances to beat her - that includes "good" characters like Rosalina.

There are definitely more characters than that that have the ability to beat Sheik. It's just that most tourneys larger than regionals have Zero, and most players don't have the ability to beat him regardless of character. Sheik is a balance problem, but isn't an "I invalidate all but 4 characters" balance problem.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This was not in tourney. Was an unofficial set in a hotel, lol. Someone recorded it but zero requested not to upload, it's his right. Nothing wrong with that

There's actually a lot wrong with that. If it's just a friendly in a hotel room why wouldn't he want it uploaded? Seems like he doesn't want his loses to be shown. Not to mention the insight it would provide on the MU and could further the metagame.

 

[bc1910]

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a video on how to beat Sheik from Zero, in the likes of his how to beat Luigi video. I'll be sure to comment that on his next vid'.
Kami~ sounds a little modest, perhaps a little more modest than Leo the Meta Knight main, but still I can see more benefits to posting the video (opposed to not). Zero will be able to see his mistakes (and improve as a player), and the community will be able to more easily understand countering Sheik. Mr R's set with Leo helped me (and a lot of other players, I assume) understand Sheik & MK a little bit better. It's sometimes embarrassing to lose (I know that feeling), but everybody loses, so there is no shame in that.

I bet his analysis wouldn't even help. In that video, Zero's answer to "how to beat Luigi" was "pick a better top tier".

 

[Minordeth]

Sheik is the best character and Zero is the best player. We can't disentangle those two things from each other fully, so it's sometimes hard to tell what exactly works against Sheik, as opposed to what works against Sheik and Zero. We do get little glimpses of insight from high level play, though, especially recently, with ESAM. What we have with that WF set is a great case study in the Sheik/Pike MU, because both players are professional level. True, Zero did outplay ESAM in Grands, but in Winners, at the tail end, it was really anyone's game.

Actually, now that I watch it again, there are lessons in there for fighting against Sheik the character rather than Zero the player. Sheik is the best, but she is susceptible to tight strings, just like anyone else. I also haven't seen as much punishment of bouncing fish with airdodge to (insert aerial here) like ESAM pulled out. I don't know if it's a matter of players just thinking Sheik is safer than she is, or it just isn't well known?

 

[Ffamran]

Honestly, Nintendo isn't going to buff something as fundamental as the movement speed of a character. Increasing the dash/walk/whatever speed is a massive buff that has far more unpredictable results than changing a single hitbox or buffing frame data on select moves. Changing Falco's speed noticeably would probably make him a broken character. He already has a fast initial dash, couple that with increased movement speed, and you have (maybe) a slightly slower Fox with absolutely suffocating strings and high damage output

Falco with even Mario and Ryu's ground speed would be scarier... It's actually kind of funny how Falco hits like a heavyweight and moves somewhat like a heavyweight, but he hits as fast a lightweight. Oh, and his edgeguard game is almost floaty-level. Now, let's make him as fast a lightweight... There you go, game's over. If Falco ran as fast as Roy, he would be overwhelming when you consider how freaking hard he hits. There's a reason why Captain Falcon moves fast, but hits fairly average to slow speed to counter his strength. Roy and Little Mac have noticeable flaws, their recoveries, alongside "issues" with the game plans such as Roy's only go to hit hard if he's breathing on you and Little Mac's lack of an air game does hurt him, especially since Fair and Bair allowing him to extend combos isn't great when you consider that's all they do.

Anyway, Falco's initial dash may be fast, but his dash length is short compared to Fox and Marth's. If he had the same initial dash, but with faster running speed like Roy or Mario, then that would be a major problem. I could see Nintendo changing movement and weight specs, but in really stupid ways like Mewtwo's suddenly 1 unit heavier or Sonic runs 0.00001 units slower. They're probably not going to up or lower speeds drastically.

I could see them changing his laser endlag, but that seems to go against what they are pushing Falco toward - which seems to be a deliberate CQC-combo-string based fighter.

I do think that effectively utilizing his lasers is largely unexplored, which is to be expected when you almost completely revamp a character.

Fox is also a CQC character and so are the Pits and somewhat of Greninja, but they had their projectiles' end lag or startup in Greninja's case reduced. Falco's more in a position where his end lag is really atrocious for the reward he gets. Ryu has the same end lag, but he can vary Hadouken's speed and the way it hits, Shakunetsu, along with Hadouken doing at minimum 5% and Hadouken has a larger hitbox.

Things you can do with Blaster is after a F-, B-, and D-throw is to fire it and get 3% or chance a lock and get about 9%. Except for the lock which requires Impact Blaster, Fox can do this too and much more safely because of the lower end lag. Off stage, you can mess with people's momentum, but not entirely destroy them so characters like Luigi and Little Mac aren't suddenly going to be dead if they get hit. If they're near the stage, hitting them means they'll slide down the ledge because of the 30 frame hit stun delay before you can grab the ledge. On stage, you better hope you're firing at max range and against Ganondorf to get something remotely positive since while you can mess with people's momentum, firing too many or committing to much means a free punish because of end lag. It's not even harassment on stage and more so an inconvenience compared to Fox's Blaster, Villager's Fair and Bair, Mega Man's lemons, and Luigi's Fireballs which are better harassment and annoyance projectiles.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

https://twitter.com/AeroLinkSSB4/status/630449855521886208

Seems it was a good weekend for Palutena, between Mr. R VS Chreest and this. Nice to see her doing well without customs.

 

[oldkingcroz]

@ Ffamran :
Yes, I completely agree with you and Antonykun on the grounds of "not every move must be good, but it should have a use". There are faults in some individual moves (such as Falco lasers/ phantasm), but just asking for buffs for characters willy nilly, kind if rubs me the wrong way.

Giving Kirby a combo throw seems pretty appropriate, seeing that he is a hyper offensive combo-er, but buffing Falco lasers will change the way he plays completely. Just there is a slight notion within the community that every move must be great, that reminds me of popular mods of the game. Every move being superb makes playing Brawl Minus so hilarious (insta-killing Warlock punch, disjointed hit boxes on Zelda kicks, misfires on every Luigi missile, Puff's sing having a hitbox half the size of FD) . The concept is in PM, as well. I love the game (for it's closest attempts at balance, advanced techniques, and emulation of Melee physics), but changing character archetypes [by buffing moves] to operate in different ways than their original intent, just to make them better is an odd way of balancing. It makes playing ROB a buzzkill for me in PM, while I love playing him in Brawl and Smash 4. He just operates differently and appeals to a different type of player. Balancing him in PM made him a better AND different character. Falco laser [heavy] buffs, despite popular demand would do the same.

I don't play Falco, but there are people out there that do, who's playstyles would either change drastically, or they would have to drop the character. That's why hearing the call for heavy buffs (or nerfs) is so annoying to hear. It changed the way the character operates, which harms the people that originally played said character. My rant wasn't aimed on anyone in particular, but the way the conversation was heading, another Falco laser discussion was going to happen.

I bet his analysis wouldn't even help. In that video, Zero's answer to "how to beat Luigi" was "pick a better top tier".

Ehh, you are kind of right in that regard, but he did talk about zoning and out-camping, which is probably the most optimal strategy to fight Luigi. While that wasn't news to me in theory craft land, a good "these characters do well against Sheik, and this is the best strategy against Sheik" would help me fight Sheik. I've had decent luck beating the local Sheik with Kirby (and Ike, if I get the right reads and play safe), but maneuvering and reading can only get me so far. An anti-Sheik guide from the best player would be great (even if his Luigi guide was somewhat character based).

 

[Blobface]

There are definitely more characters than that that have the ability to beat Sheik. It's just that most tourneys larger than regionals have Zero, and most players don't have the ability to beat him regardless of character. Sheik is a balance problem, but isn't an "I invalidate all but 4 characters" balance problem.

In addition, a lot of our top level players are considerably ahead skill-wise of our high level players, and top level players will always pick top tier characters.

 

[Ffamran]

Last post of buffs and stuff since it's not related to the topic.

@ Ffamran :
Yes, I completely agree with you and Antonykun on the grounds of "not every move must be good, but it should have a use". There are faults in some individual moves (such as Falco lasers/ phantasm), but just asking for buffs for characters willy nilly, kind if rubs me the wrong way.

There's a reason why Shaya does not like patch suggestion posts, especially if they're something like, 5% more damage on Zelda's Ftilt. Why? What is the purpose? Or something like, Ganondorf with better dash speed. Yes, turn a walking tank into a speeding train.

Giving Kirby a combo throw seems pretty appropriate, seeing that he is a hyper offensive combo-er, but buffing Falco lasers will change the way he plays completely. Just there is a slight notion within the community that every move must be great, that reminds me of popular mods of the game. Every move being superb makes playing Brawl Minus so hilarious (insta-killing Warlock punch, disjointed hit boxes on Zelda kicks, misfires on every Luigi missile, Puff's sing having a hitbox half the size of FD) . The concept is in PM, as well. I love the game (for it's closest attempts at balance, advanced techniques, and emulation of Melee physics), but changing character archetypes [by buffing moves] to operate in different ways than their original intent, just to make them better is an odd way of balancing. It makes playing ROB a buzzkill for me in PM, while I love playing him in Brawl and Smash 4. He just operates differently and appeals to a different type of player. Balancing him in PM made him a better AND different character. Falco laser [heavy] buffs, despite popular demand would do the same.

Does it matter if a character is different, but plays just as well or just differently? Case in point: Ganondorf in Melee vs. PM vs. Brawl and Smash 4, Falco in every game, Lucario in Brawl and Smash 4 vs. PM, or "classic", EX, or flames Iori Yagami vs. claw Iori Yagami.

I don't like PM Lucario since it's just Lucario with Ryu stuff, but does it really matter? The PM development team isn't an official development, but let's say Lucina is in Smash 5 and ends up as this multi-hitting swordswoman like Sephiroth in Dissidia. What was her "original" design? Does it even matter? Someone might not like that Luci's not a Marth clone anymore, but some might like that she's not a Marth clone. Some might not like her multi-hit mechanic now, but others might. Does it matter? People drop characters left and right and people stick with their characters through thick and thin. Let's say 100 people play Lucina, but after seeing Lucina in Smash 5, 75 of them drop her. So what? There's still 25 people playing her and possibly more to come. Lucina as hard as it to admit for people, is just a bunch of code with a voice actress giving her "character". That's it. If you, Tim, Gianna, or Ken don't like Lucina, it doesn't matter.

I don't play Falco, but there are people out there that do, who's playstyles would either change drastically, or they would have to drop the character. That's why hearing the call for heavy buffs (or nerfs) is so annoying to hear. It changed the way the character operates, which harms the people that originally played said character. My rant wasn't aimed on anyone in particular, but the way the conversation was heading, another Falco laser discussion was going to happen.

Depending on how his Blaster is changed which probably won't be drastic, it would or wouldn't affect his gameplay. The people who don't like Smash 4 Falco are the people who don't like Melee, Brawl, or PM Falco. They're the same people who either don't like that he can't overwhelmingly zone or isn't a character with a hit confirm with Reflector, doesn't have a single hit Utilt, a single hit Nair, fast Dair, etc., or just simply isn't Melee, Brawl, or PM Falco. That's different than not liking Street Fighter IV Sagat, but liking - I don't know if there were major changes - Ultra Street Fighter IV Sagat. It's not liking that Falco has never been the same or similar character in any game compared to Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Mario who are similar in each game, but do play differently. With Falco, you take 180's in each game.

Melee and PM Falco were a balance between ranged and melee combat, Brawl was more ranged, and Smash 4 Falco is more melee-focused. That's like going from in terms of KoF XIII, EX Iori, Athena, and Claw Iori. 3 different characters. The people who stuck with Falco had to change their play style completely or adapt their play style to fit Falco. If Blaster was made more like Melee and Brawl or more like Guile's Sonic Boom, Falco would go from melee-focused to ranged like in Brawl. Maybe balanced if it doesn't change that drastically. If it's just slightly changed like reduced end lag from 58 to 48, Falco would be a bit more balanced as he could challenge from range better, but would still end up preferring to fight up close. It wouldn't be like Falco suddenly has a running speed of 1.8 and went from a cautious melee fighter to a rushdowner. It'd be like Greninja, Robin, and Fox having their projectile changes. Fox didn't suddenly become more trigger-happy, but he does use his Blaster more now.

 

[bc1910]

Ehh, you are kind of right in that regard, but he did talk about zoning and out-camping, which is probably the most optimal strategy to fight Luigi. While that wasn't news to me in theory craft land, a good "these characters do well against Sheik, and this is the best strategy against Sheik" would help me fight Sheik. I've had decent luck beating the local Sheik with Kirby (and Ike, if I get the right reads and play safe), but maneuvering and reading can only get me so far. An anti-Sheik guide from the best player would be great (even if his Luigi guide was somewhat character based).

Yeah, you're right.

"To beat Luigi, zone and out-camp him with Sheik."

 

[NachoOfCheese]

In addition, a lot of our top level players are considerably ahead skill-wise of our high level players, and top level players will always pick top tier characters.

aMSa? DK Will? Abadango? The post right below this one?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLzK_tivw9Y

Hey look, top level Lucina play exists! And Roy I guess.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

aMSa? DK Will? Abadango?

AMSa picked up pikachu (for customs) dkwill 2nds sheik and Abadango plays rosa.....

 

[FullMoon]

AMSa picked up pikachu (for customs)

aMSa played Greninja and only Greninja at EVO. He didn't go through with that idea.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

aMSa played Greninja and only Greninja at EVO. He didn't go through with that idea.

Yeah but we all know he has a pocket pikachu.

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah but we all know he has a pocket pikachu.

We do? Has he even shown himself playing Pikachu in any event?

He said in an interview that he's just focusing on improving his tech skill with Greninja, I don't think aMSa has a secondary at all.

 

[Zionaze]

Just wished falco lasers had the same endlag as fox lasers. Fast enough to shoot 1 but not spammable

 

[Man Li Gi]

I've been seriously out of the loop with Smash Con (didn't really have time to watch due to work and funeral). What happened outside the results (I can see for myself)? I heard something about kami and Zero.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

We do? Has he even shown himself playing Pikachu in any event?

He said in an interview that he's just focusing on improving his tech skill with Greninja, I don't think aMSa has a secondary at all.

Whatever you say man. It's not like you didn't think he was going pikachu at evo.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I've been seriously out of the loop with Smash Con (didn't really have time to watch due to work and funeral). What happened outside the results (I can see for myself)? I heard something about kami and Zero.

Esam and Zero had what was probably the best set played in Smash 4 so far.

 

[FullMoon]

Whatever you say man. It's not like you didn't think he was going pikachu at evo.

I'm not being a hypocrite here. aMSa stated he was going for Pikachu for customs and so I figured he would do so, Japan doesn't typically play with customs IIRC so it would be hard to know if he was actually going to do so until EVO happened and then he went only Greninja and I was legit surprised by that.

He didn't even bring Pikachu as a last resort so I think it's safe to assume aMSa is staying Greninja only at least for now.

 

[Speed Boost]

Esam and Zero had what was probably the best set played in Smash 4 so far.

OMG that was hype! ESAM was playing as good as I've ever seen him play and Zero still pulled it out. Smash 4 is here to stay!

 

[Trifroze]

Characters That Sheik Doesn't Murder:


I think it's unlikely that any of these are actually "even," but they're close enough that it really shouldn't be that big of a deal. I also think that a few other characters could join this grouping, though these are the only ones I am confident listing right now. While I do think all of them have plenty of room for growth in all aspects of their game, I'd be surprised if any of them manage to outstrip Sheik in that department (as she has, so far, been about nothing but growth). The best case scenario for some character(s) having an advantaged matchup against the ninja at this point is probably a nerf to needles, sad as I am to say it.

I have a hard time seeing how characters like Lucario and MK would not get murdered by Sheik. MK and Lucario have cool kill setups and power respectively but in the case of both, all of their options for killing are too committal and you're supposed to land them versus the safest character in the game meaning you have to fish for those for quite a while and most likely always get punished. Lucario and MK don't have a very good neutral game and that's a really important factor.

 

[Asdioh]

Did anybody comment, during smashcon, on how people kept taking Sheik to Smashville? I'm sure that's something this thread appreciated

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

It's not liking that Falco has never been the same or similar character in any game compared to Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Mario who are similar in each game, but do play differently. With Falco, you take 180's in each game.

If it's just slightly changed like reduced end lag from 58 to 48, Falco would be a bit more balanced as he could challenge from range better, but would still end up preferring to fight up close. It wouldn't be like Falco suddenly has a running speed of 1.8 and went from a cautious melee fighter to a rushdowner. It'd be like Greninja, Robin, and Fox having their projectile changes. Fox didn't suddenly become more trigger-happy, but he does use his Blaster more now.

And yet I love every Falco. <3 (once he got his changes in this game at least. Early Falco was kinda fun but rough around the edges)

And yeah that's all I want. Laser doesn't need to lock you down or make some characters unviable by itself. Just a touch up to give it use and cover up a slight hole in his game. He's honestly pretty good as he is.

 

[Man Li Gi]

If ESAM tried less on reads with random smashes, he could won......but that's not the ESAM I know. We see near erratic game play from Esam and it seriously frazzled Zero and flustered his game. Legit, if Esam played in the most optimal ways, I believe he could be where Zero is. Thankfully, Esam knows how to make it hype so as not to make it pragmatic (though Zero has been known to do some unorthodox methods to make matches hype.

As much as we've seen from Nairo coming close, I never really thought he will take it due to Zero making sure he stays just outside of ZSS'S grab and Nairo does panic up b which is so exploitable. Esam has a better chance IMO, due to his volatile and mostly uncanny behavior in matches which, I believe Zero suffers against.

Esam= KDJ
Nairo= Azen
Zero= Ken

 

[Kaladin]

It

Esam and Zero had what was probably the best set played in Smash 4 so far.

This shows why ZeRo is the best: adaption. ESAM panic airdodged after the dthrow last game, instead of DI away/jump or mashing thunder. This mixup got him two or three times prior. If he had just seen it coming...

It would have been ZeRo's second tourney win from losers'.

 

[Djent]

I have a hard time seeing how characters like Lucario and MK would not get murdered by Sheik. MK and Lucario have cool kill setups and power respectively but in the case of both, all of their options for killing are too committal and you're supposed to land them versus the safest character in the game meaning you have to fish for those for quite a while and most likely always get punished. Lucario and MK don't have a very good neutral game and that's a really important factor.

I agree to a point, and so I'll admit those two are the most controversial inclusions. But MK cam abuse some of the things Pika can (low frame, sold rolls, and would probably do even better with airdodge-to-aerial punishes on Bouncing Fish). Lucario is the most controversial inclusion, though I think his weakness in neutral is slightly overstated. If Sheik can't set up a 50-50 he janks her to death, but otherwise suffers for the reasons you mention.

Esam= KDJ
Nairo= Azen
Zero= Ken

What is the largest number of tournaments that Ken won in a row? ZeRo might be unprecedented in the history of Smash.

 

[Ghostbone]

I bet his analysis wouldn't even help. In that video, Zero's answer to "how to beat Luigi" was "pick a better top tier".

He's right tho.
Luigi beats everyone else, except for niche mid/low tiers that aren't worth putting your time into because they suck vs most top tiers. If you're playing to win, Zero gave you the best advice on how to.

 

[Pyr]

I agree to a point, and so I'll admit those two are the most controversial inclusions. But MK cam abuse some of the things Pika can (low frame, sold rolls, and would probably do even better with airdodge-to-aerial punishes on Bouncing Fish). Lucario is the most controversial inclusion, though I think his weakness in neutral is slightly overstated. If Sheik can't set up a 50-50 he janks her to death, but otherwise suffers for the reasons you mention.

What is the largest number of tournaments that Ken won in a row? ZeRo might be unprecedented in the history of Smash.

Out of 37 major tournies, between 2003 and 2007, he didn't come first 9 times (singles). Out of those, he only lost doubles 5 times.

So... He still lost once in a blue moon in 4 years.