Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Speaking of wavebouncing/B-Reversing specials, how do you feel Chef works as a B-Reverse move? It's a decent commitment but Game & Watch's high air speed allows him to bounce out of situations a good distance while throwing out a hitbox close to the body and a wide-arcing, slow projectile for protection. It sounds great in theory but sadly air haven't been able to play for a few months to put it into practice.

Judge can also be wavebounced IIRC.

It's kinda good imoimo.
The frying pan hitbox just seems to "always work", and it then hits them into another bacon that then allows me to a get a free SOMETHING. It's great.

Full hop retreating back air hits low enough from the start and auto cancels and is pretty safe. If you see a silly movement towards you, rocketing into them is great.
You can also try facing forward (so threatening with forward air), and while retreating slightly above their head wave bounce as a cross over into the ground.

Also ironically (it's probably what they meant by the momentum mojo in the official guide), you can go flying away with wavebounced bucket and reverse momentum during it too. I think only crazy shaya would try it as a "get away" while moving towards something off the ledge to then edge cancel away back into a jump fair or something.

 

[TriTails]

I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. But do not ever go there saying that, because it's a straight up lie.

Luigi has a decent enough kill throw, a combo throw, and the other 2 options that he has are good for getting his opponent off-stage or ready for some small setup, his overall throw options are FAR from bad compared to some characters like Zelda, which has none of these options at all, and have to suffer even more to get them.

I get it that it's not the greatest set of throws, but saying that they arent "all that great" it's going too far when you consider how horrible the grab game of some other characters is.

B-throw doesn't KO until like 200% in the middle of FD. While admitedly it kills dececntly enough near the edge, it's pretty laggy (Easy to DI) and is situational. Though, it has its uses. But D-throw B-air is almost always the superior option.

F-throw literally has no use aside from just throwing people off-stage without it killing to like 180% at the edge, throwing people during walk-offs, comboing to DA (lol) at 0%, and some more little insignificant uses.

U-throw doesn't kill until like 160%. Kinda leads into rev. U-air to B-air tho..

D-throw is obviously the best throw.

Despite of those tho, yes, I agree Luigi has decent enough throws, but seeing on how his other throws are just outshined by his D-throw is kinda... uhm. Perhaps I should've rephrased that better. I just... want his throws to have some uses. Sure. U-throw airdodge bait + Nado kills Sheik at like 55% with 130% rage, but nobody who knows the MU will ever airdodge against Luigi. Sure. B-throw is strong enough to kill near the edge. But compated to his D-throw those are all just... flat out nothing.

I just kinda want them to have their uses too.

But my babblings aside, yeah. Luigi has good throws. It's just we have little reasons to use them when we have the D-throw. It's kinda a good thing since staled D-throw allows for easier follow-ups... I guess his D-throw is too strong for them to buff Luigi's other throws. I suppose I'll just shut up about them then.

And also. A lot of things can look good when compared to Zelda. This isn't neccesarily the aforementioned things' problem, it's Zelda's.

Speaking of Zelda, has this character gotten better or what? I see buffs everywhere but I don't know if they actually help the princess.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

and luigi once again fails to reach top8 in a relevent tournament, how many times already?
luigi is good character but not top10, you won't be seeing them in the very high skill bracket until a legendary luigi mains comes to town.

I can agree with this. He most likely just misses the cut.

Also were there no good wario players? I feel like wario is at risk of being the next Luigi: overhyped cp char that ends up losing to both characters and players who learn the matchup. He needs some more results soon or he's gonna drop in people's eyes just like Luigi.

 

[MVD]

So if I'm not mistaken, a Duck Hunt Dog (DandyPenguin) got 13th at SSC (I think MVD has dropped him?). Apparently beating Poke and Mr. E along the way.

And there's the Top 8.

Did not and will not drop duck hunt

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

B-throw doesn't KO until like 200% in the middle of FD. While admitedly it kills dececntly enough near the edge, it's pretty laggy (Easy to DI) and is situational. Though, it has its uses. But D-throw B-air is almost always the superior option.

F-throw literally has no use aside from just throwing people off-stage without it killing to like 180% at the edge, throwing people during walk-offs, comboing to DA (lol) at 0%, and some more little insignificant uses.

U-throw doesn't kill until like 160%. Kinda leads into rev. U-air to B-air tho..

D-throw is obviously the best throw.

Despite of those tho, yes, I agree Luigi has decent enough throws, but seeing on how his other throws are just outshined by his D-throw is kinda... uhm. Perhaps I should've rephrased that better. I just... want his throws to have some uses. Sure. U-throw airdodge bait + Nado kills Sheik at like 55% with 130% rage, but nobody who knows the MU will ever airdodge against Luigi. Sure. B-throw is strong enough to kill near the edge. But compated to his D-throw those are all just... flat out nothing.

I just kinda want them to have their uses too.

But my babblings aside, yeah. Luigi has good throws. It's just we have little reasons to use them when we have the D-throw. It's kinda a good thing since staled D-throw allows for easier follow-ups... I guess his D-throw is too strong for them to buff Luigi's other throws. I suppose I'll just shut up about them then.

And also. A lot of things can look good when compared to Zelda. This isn't neccesarily the aforementioned things' problem, it's Zelda's.

Speaking of Zelda, has this character gotten better or what? I see buffs everywhere but I don't know if they actually help the princess.

I dunno man, from a design standpoint I can understand your arguments, useless throws could be not there at all and the difference would be minuscule. Thing is, how would you balance it? I think Luigi and ZSSamus are the best examples here. Imagine those characters that have amazing dThrows to have even more usable throws. Every other character would need to have amazing throws as well and balance would result in every character being the same.
I think it's fine for characters with one amazing throw to have useless throws to balance it out.

 

[TriTails]

I dunno man, from a design standpoint I can understand your arguments, useless throws could be not there at all and the difference would be minuscule. Thing is, how would you balance it? I think Luigi and ZSSamus are the best examples here. Imagine those characters that have amazing dThrows to have even more usable throws. Every other character would need to have amazing throws as well and balance would result in every character being the same.
I think it's fine for characters with one amazing throw to have useless throws to balance it out.

That's where I met my stop sign. Unless we nerf Luigi's D-throw (Please don't without some huge compensations), his other throws could just be let as they are as Luigi already has a F6 grab, F8 dash grab, and F9 pivot grab, the fastest in the game, along with the best D-throw in the game. ZSS is kinda undertandable because she has a bad grab, but she's already Top 5 so IDK if we should buff her.

Yeah... perhaps it's fine. But if his throws can be possibly buffed in such ways that he has other options but don't make him OP please do.

Anyhoo, I'll just ask this again. Is Zelda still bad? Buffs are coming but do they really lend a hand to Zelda? Or will she require more buffs to pull her out of 'bottom tier' spot? I'm curious.

 

[Tainic]

Luigi is balanced enough as he is tbh : Strengths in an excellent combo potential & good enough KO/Edgeguarding, good projectile, decent ground speed, but glaring weaknesses in his difficulty to deal with camping, short range, (Sorta mitigated by Fireballs.) exploitable recovery, and so on, the plumber has a ****ton of power to boast but he isn't perfect, he's one of those characters who have distinct assets and flaws, and are pretty well balanced imo. (You could compare him to Falcon, who has power, weight, speed, but exploitable recovery and comboable to balance him out, they're both fine and don't need anything really.)

 

[Jabejazz]

Did not and will not drop duck hunt

You da man.

Yeah... perhaps it's fine. But if his throws can be possibly buffed in such ways that he has other options but don't make him OP please do.

There's not much point in buffing other throws to give him more options, when DThrow still is optimal. Or nerfing DThrow and buffing others so that another throw becomes optimal at specific % thresholds / weight categories is merely giving the illusion that you have a lot of good throws.

I feel the situation in which you put your opponent after a throw is generally sufficient to be deemed useful. There are many ways to capitalize on it, without being a guaranteed follow-up.

 

[Kaladin]

Luigi has a really good Dthrow, that's his 'thing' in this game. I'd say it's comparable to Ness' Bthrow: it wouldn't be sm4sh Luigi without stupid Dthrow combos (this coming from someone whose mains lose to Luigi, so no bias.)

You know what would be cool? One smash game, just one, where Zelda isn't bottom tier. In smash 4, she has one of the best panic buttons in the game with her neutral B, and one of the best OoS kill options with her up B. Other than that, what does she really have going for her? Moreover, what could they do to Ike her? Cuz an Ike'd Zelda is something I'd like to see. Give, like, all her normals 2-3 frames less startup and 1-2 frames less end lag would be a place to start, so she isn't outframed as badly. Make Din's fire no longer induce helpless, and give her a kill throw, and you have a decent character.

Thoughts?

 

[Routa]

But Zelda is top tier in Melee.

Get it???

But anyways Zelda is in odd position. She is atm most Zelda-like character atm. Making her faster would make her less of a Zelda. Tough choices eh?

 

[TriTails]

I still hold on that 'aerials are Luigi's 'thing'' in this game. Boss struggled against Hart's Sheik in Xanadu, and from what I can observe, he doesn't abuse SHFF F-air/B-air/N-air/D-air enough. And fished for grabs too much. When I can't get a grab, I do tons of tomahawks to mess with people's minds thinking I would go for aerials but instead I go for a DA or dash grab. Or keep doing SH aerials. It's a fine strategy on my end.

 

[Kaladin]

But Zelda is top tier in Melee.

Get it???

But anyways Zelda is in odd position. She is atm most Zelda-like character atm. Making her faster would make her less of a Zelda. Tough choices eh?

Melee Zelda has the best move in this history of smash: her Down B .


Really though, I don't think giving her some fast spacing options makes her un-Zelda.

 

[Ghostbone]

Melee Zelda has the best move in this history of smash: her Down B .

Fox's down-b is still better

 

[Tainic]

> Not Mewtwo's Down B.

 

[Smog Frog]

down b was the best because it literally guaranteed you a win once you were in the lead, it was so strong that there had to be rules implemented against it

 

[NachoOfCheese]

When people say "x isn't a kill throw! It doesn't kill until 250% at the center of FD!" I get so mad. WHY are you using it in the middle of FD? The base knockback on many throws are so high that they're literally designed to kill near the ledge and NOT the center of FD.

 

[C0rvus]

Zelda is just a poorly designed character for a movement-based platform fighter like Smash. If her projectiles were actually good then I could see her being a bit more of a threat. But as it stands she is a very defensive character who gives her opponent few reasons to ever approach. That and her moves have little coverage; fair and bair are good, but they require essentially a read AND god spacing to be effective. Plus, no autocancel worth talking about. Maybe if her jab wasn't really bad she could box a little bit. Isn't her grab kinda slow too?

 

[Routa]

When people say "x isn't a kill throw! It doesn't kill until 250% at the center of FD!" I get so mad. WHY are you using it in the middle of FD? The base knockback on many throws are so high that they're literally designed to kill near the ledge and NOT the center of FD.

Unless it is a U-throw.

 

[Vipermoon]

Even Uthrows need rage to do some work. Rage is the reason why my Uthrow kills in the low 100s vs. 160+

 

[Kaladin]

Even Uthrows need rage to do some work. Rage is the reason why my Uthrow kills in the low 100s vs. 160+

Really? A 60% difference? I thought max rage was only a x1.15 modifier...

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Even Uthrows need rage to do some work. Rage is the reason why my Uthrow kills in the low 100s vs. 160+

Rage and the stage. I don't think I've ever been killed by it on FD, but I have on Dreamland and Town and City.

 

[Smog Frog]

i also remember reading that moves with higher bkb were more affected by rage.

 

[A_Kae]

Really? A 60% difference? I thought max rage was only a x1.15 modifier...

It's 1.15x at max, yes. But he said low 100s, not 100. Marth's uthrow can kill around 120-130ish with rage.

 

[PUK]

And also. A lot of things can look good when compared to Zelda. This isn't neccesarily the aforementioned things' problem, it's Zelda's.

Speaking of Zelda, has this character gotten better or what? I see buffs everywhere but I don't know if they actually help the princess.

Yeah a lot of things look good compared to zelda, except they don't. Zelda Bthrow and fthrow (and maybe uthrow too) are all better than luigi.
Pls i don't like seeing things like "zelda sucks therefore Ike's fsmash is better than all zelda moves put together" as it's wrong and bring nothing.
Zelda is not designed to be defensive, but her flaws condamned her to be played like this. Optimal zelda approachs, a bit like ganondorf, and she has his kill power and damage per hit, but approaching in his game is overall a terrible strategy when you don't have mobility. See: luigi at EVO
Some of zelda moves looks like they sucks, but only if you want to use it like you use another character move. Yes if you want to zone with zelda's aerial you're gonna be punished, but use it to capitalize on the opponent's defensive choice (and unlike Falcon fair they are fast enough to be used on reaction) and you will insta kill them (at high enough percent) or put them in disadvantage. If you use your jab to defend yourserlf you're gonne be screw. Use it to deny opponent options like sh aerial or rush in and grab/attack, because even if it whiff you won't be punish.
Basically her design is close to a sniper in a fps (heavy reward but need to take a lot of risk). It's why she works better in ffa (with time, not stock) and team.
But even in these modes she's not top tier, mostly because playing like a sniper in smash brings nowhere unless her reward completely overcome her weaknesses. Which means instakill with some moves, far from what she gets now. And balace wise, she would invalidate anyone that can't escape her.
Anyway zelda bashing on this topic is half fact half fantasy, but i don't understand why it's always come back.
Why you don't talk about the fact that some things like difference in percent inflicted/ kill percent, where it's basically clear that some character are ****ing blessed, while others like bowser, MSF, DK (and zelda) etc are cursed.
Let think about ness Uair that kill eariler than DK Uair, despite having the same damage, despite ness having a kill throw, a smaller head and less land and endlag, and being able to use it close to the ground.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What characters can give actual shield pressure? I only know sheik

 

[PhlipDarkRiot]

Unless it is a U-throw.

Not if it's Charizard's U-throw. You can DI it, dare I say, super effectively at center stage without platforms, because it's not completely vertical.

The difference between no rage center stage FD and side platform of T&C rage induced U-throw is insane. You're right, just Zard's might be the biggest exception ever.

 

[C3PO]

Maybe it's irrelevant to your list, but I got 33rd with Diddy - it was essentially a fluke that I didn't get top 32 (I 2 stocked the guy that sent me to losers when I actually used my main). Just more data

 

[Jabejazz]

What characters can give actual shield pressure? I only know sheik

Robin, to an extent. Arc Fire and Arc Thunder with Levin aerials are legit.

 

[Tainic]

Why you don't talk about the fact that some things like difference in percent inflicted/ kill percent, where it's basically clear that some character are ****ing blessed, while others like bowser, MSF, DK (and zelda) etc are cursed.
Let think about ness Uair that kill eariler than DK Uair, despite having the same damage, despite ness having a kill throw, a smaller head and less land and endlag, and being able to use it close to the ground.

The problem is not that Ness/x high tier has a bull**** asset that needs to be nerfed, the real problem is that the characters you mentioned all need a buff. (also the whole "ness can upb a grounded foe" is because he is small, tons of small characters can uair while taller ones cant.)

As for shield pressure, Marth/Lucina, Robin, perhaps Fox and Ryu can all shield pressure. Though the best way to pressure a shield is to have a command grab.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I mean, a move can be SAFE on shield, but then it's just a poke and probably a defensive one because 99% you're going to be retreating. There's like, no move where it grants you FRAME ADVANTAGE (sheik Fair is the only one I know) where you can throw out another move to create a block string to give some real offensive pressure.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

As for shield pressure, Marth/Lucina, Robin, perhaps Fox and Ryu can all shield pressure. Though the best way to pressure a shield is to have a command grab.

Samus and DK are two others with great shield pressure. Both have a lot of tools to break shields.

Yeah a lot of things look good compared to zelda, except they don't. Zelda Bthrow and fthrow (and maybe uthrow too) are all better than luigi.
Pls i don't like seeing things like "zelda sucks therefore Ike's fsmash is better than all zelda moves put together" as it's wrong and bring nothing.
Zelda is not designed to be defensive, but her flaws condamned her to be played like this. Optimal zelda approachs, a bit like ganondorf, and she has his kill power and damage per hit, but approaching in his game is overall a terrible strategy when you don't have mobility. See: luigi at EVO
Some of zelda moves looks like they sucks, but only if you want to use it like you use another character move. Yes if you want to zone with zelda's aerial you're gonna be punished, but use it to capitalize on the opponent's defensive choice (and unlike Falcon fair they are fast enough to be used on reaction) and you will insta kill them (at high enough percent) or put them in disadvantage. If you use your jab to defend yourserlf you're gonne be screw. Use it to deny opponent options like sh aerial or rush in and grab/attack, because even if it whiff you won't be punish.
Basically her design is close to a sniper in a fps (heavy reward but need to take a lot of risk). It's why she works better in ffa (with time, not stock) and team.
But even in these modes she's not top tier, mostly because playing like a sniper in smash brings nowhere unless her reward completely overcome her weaknesses. Which means instakill with some moves, far from what she gets now. And balace wise, she would invalidate anyone that can't escape her.
Anyway zelda bashing on this topic is half fact half fantasy, but i don't understand why it's always come back.
Why you don't talk about the fact that some things like difference in percent inflicted/ kill percent, where it's basically clear that some character are ****ing blessed, while others like bowser, MSF, DK (and zelda) etc are cursed.
Let think about ness Uair that kill eariler than DK Uair, despite having the same damage, despite ness having a kill throw, a smaller head and less land and endlag, and being able to use it close to the ground.

My least favorite thing about Ness's u-air is how ridiculous the hitbox is compared to Lucas's. It's insane. If Lucas wants to pull off a falling u-air opponent, his head has to be practically inside his opponent.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Just vs.ed two of NM's top 10 players (who just so happen to play Zelda) last night. Gonna set the record strait and say, Zelda does have a combo throw in this game. I don't know why people thought she didn't. D throw combos into nair at low-mid percents, and puts Zelda at a pretty good position at mid-high (and may or may not be able to set up 50:50s on double jump/air dodge punishes at rage/ character specific percents). Her down throw is not bad. It's not Luigi level, but then again, nothing is. As far as Zelda buffs went, her long acting hitboxes were tweeked to combo into each other/ final hit, damage on moves slightly increased (up tilt and up smash, among others if I recall), and her down tilt ('s angle?) was slightly buffed.

So what made Zelda good in PM? I think that's the big question here, because that's been the only standout "high tier" Zelda in the 4 major games she has been in. L canceling aerials certainly helped the character, and made her a lot less riskier to use. Right now, eating all that landing lagg off any aerial, using falore's wind as an offensive tool, and using Nayru's are all high risk/ high reward in smash 4, and that isn't really what the character is about in PM. Playing it safe with invincible Nayru/Falore, trapping opponent/forcing option with din's fire, and spacing and combo-ing to [safer] lightning kicks made her truly great. This contrasts her smash 4 incarnation quite a bit.

So I talked a minute with my Zelda buds and they said making her safer and give her the Ike treatment (less landing lagg on several moves and more kill power on several moves) would be the best way of making her good in this game. She would play differently than PM, but she would be decent at least, as a high risk/ high reward offensive/ defensive hybrid.

 

[Browny]

Lucas has overall the third strongest kill throws, taking the #3 spot for vertical kills and #2 for backthrows

Maybe it's irrelevant to your list, but I got 33rd with Diddy - it was essentially a fluke that I didn't get top 32 (I 2 stocked the guy that sent me to losers when I actually used my main). Just more data

What does your sig mean omg I cant figure it out >_<

 

[FullMoon]

What does your sig mean omg I cant figure it out >_<

Pretty sure that's the command for the Hoo-hah (Grab -> D-Throw -> Jump -> Up-Air)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I mean, a move can be SAFE on shield, but then it's just a poke and probably a defensive one because 99% you're going to be retreating. There's like, no move where it grants you FRAME ADVANTAGE (sheik Fair is the only one I know) where you can throw out another move to create a block string to give some real offensive pressure.

You would like Project M. That game is practically built around sheild pressure.

 

[Tainic]

Lucas has overall the third strongest kill throws, taking the #3 spot for vertical kills and #2 for backthrows

And a hoohah.

I'd say Lucas' throws and uair are fine as they are lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean, a move can be SAFE on shield, but then it's just a poke and probably a defensive one because 99% you're going to be retreating. There's like, no move where it grants you FRAME ADVANTAGE (sheik Fair is the only one I know) where you can throw out another move to create a block string to give some real offensive pressure.

Sheiks fair does not do this.

Zairs do this. Roys Nair does this. Other Nairs can but you gotta be frame perfect and do it the instant before you touch the ground like with Links for example.

 

[Routa]

Hmm...I keep hearing that Ike is high tier. I just cannot see it. Yes he has one of the best punish and spacing games and he kills really early... But that is kinda it. I mean he cannot approach safely (if we don't count his custom side-b aka CC aka Close Combat). I mean any character can force him to approach with any kind of projectile which is a instant disadvantage for Ike. Also the fact that he is a combo food is kinda... Well you know... ****ty thing for him. He has no way to get out of combos(/strings) and he is heavy. Do I need to say more?

But then again... He has one of the best spacing and punish games. He gets % even with 1 hit so...

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Hmm...I keep hearing that Ike is high tier. I just cannot see it. Yes he has one of the best punish and spacing games and he kills really early... But that is kinda it. I mean he cannot approach safely (if we don't count his custom side-b aka CC aka Close Combat). I mean any character can force him to approach with any kind of projectile which is a instant disadvantage for Ike. Also the fact that he is a combo food is kinda... Well you know... ****ty thing for him. He has no way to get out of combos(/strings) and he is heavy. Do I need to say more?

But then again... He has one of the best spacing and punish games. He gets % even with 1 hit so...

Ike's reward will always make him seem better than he actually is. Same goes for DK. For similar reasons, they can never be "high tier" just because of their design. DK and Ike have almost Ness-levels of grab reward but that won't change how bad their disadvantage and neutral states are. I don't believe they are high tier but they have the tools to work. It's hard to get in but once you do you can hit like a truck, which keeps you in the game. When Ike can do in 1 hit what Sheik can do in 5, you're never really out of the game. The problem is that Sheik can get 5 hits very easily. So where does that leave Ike? Mid tier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's disadvantage stage is below average, not terrible. Bair hits more than behind him and is frame 7, and he also has both counter and aether as ways to get out of some of those situations as well. His aerial speed is pretty great. His dash -> shield is one of the better ones in the game (every character has a different timing for when they can shield out of a dash). His recovery is also pretty decent and not as bad as people think. Quick Draw is fairly hard for people to realistically punish: we can aim above the stage and just slide along with no landing lag, aim for the ledge, aim for a platform, or aim below the ledge and still grab it. If you're trying to stop it, you're basically playing a guessing game with the odds in Ike's favour most of the time. Aether likewise can either poke into the stage to punish people trying to edgeguard us, or grab the ledge from farther than most people realize: I'd say roughly a whole another spinning sword length away in both directions.

Projectiles frankly aren't that big of a deal. The moment you're in dash attack range you basically have to stop using them otherwise you're going to get punished: potentially taking 24% damage if you time it just wrong so that dash attack hits you and the projectile at the same time as it makes it hit twice. Any chip damage you tacked on's advantage will be removed within a hit or two. His neutral game overall is actually pretty good: the moment he enters mid range you're forced to respect him, Bair/Fair both auto cancel, Nair is -2 on shield, and you have to fear Dtilt/Jab/Grab and all that they can lead into. And everyone and their mother keeps picking Smashville and while I hate the stage personally... it also means that if you're using projectiles you have even less space to be outside of Ike's Dash Attack range.

Eruption frankly, is quite possibly OP'd at edgeguarding. Best onstage edgeguarding move in the game by a country mile. 7 frames to hit somebody trying to grab the ledge OR go over it, with super armour, and most likely KOing if they're off stage in the first place? We're just getting better and better at the timing on recoveries. Sheik is almost free to hit with it if she has to use Vanish, the timing is too obvious.

SM was literally 1 win away from top 32 at EVO. And he's not one of the top 3 Ikes. And he ended up against somebody who had been housed by an Ike player for the tournament and practiced against him a whole bunch. And this was before the Uair buff which puts it on absolutely insane levels and its KOing a good 20-30% sooner than before. Ryo is absolutely crushing his region right now, constantly beating Static Manny and does well when he travels outside of his local area. San is just starting to get back into SSB4 and is consistently winning his tournaments. We have an Ike in the UK that is starting to go on a tear as well.

Ike simply has too good of an advantaged state and a "not quite as bad as you think" disadvantage state to not be high tier. You're free to argue where in high tier he is, but he's undeniably there now. We have both the theory and the results to prove it.