Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Ike in the same boat as all high tiers. Does well overall.

Loses to the real characters that actually matter.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike in the same boat as all high tiers. Does well overall.

Loses to the real characters that actually matter.

idk about that. We beat Sonic, several of the top Ikes believe we beat Rosalina, we're split on if we beat Luigi or not, we have at least one top level Ike that suspects we beat ZSS, same goes with Pika, Diddy, and possibly Fox...

The problem is that Ike's playstyle can actually vary quite a bit. Leads to a lot of varying opinions as certain playstyles do well against certain characters and its not necessarily easy to change up your playstyle. Pretty much the only character we all agree that we lose to is Sheik, at 40-60.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uh huh.

And Olimar?

Ike doesnt beat Diddy or ZSS btw.

**** outta here. He prolly beats Rosa and Sonic.

The others are simply too strong at disadvantage and put Ike in disadvantage far easier then he does to them. His disadvantage state isnt horrid, but he does have one. Where is ZSS disadvantage? Or Pikachu?

 

[Nabbitnator]

I know ike is a good character and all but if he could beat zss/diddy/pika/fox. He wouldn't be considered high tier anymore. I'd like to know how ike beats these four characters...

 

[Tainic]

I'm pretty sure he gets murdured by Fox, who just has to play the keepaway laser game and do a 40% combo at the slightest error Ike makes.

 

[Rhus]

Fox 100% wins the Ike matchup (not drastically, but he does win it), but it's demanding that Fox doesn't slip up and then it starts to look like the MU is obviously in Ike's favour, when it isn't.

Ike's a really strong character now, and I'm seeing how he can beat Rosa and Sonic, but not at all seeing how he beats McCloud small monkey and Pika.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Uh huh.

And Olimar?

Ike doesnt beat Diddy or ZSS btw.

**** outta here. He prolly beats Rosa and Sonic.

The others are simply too strong at disadvantage and put Ike in disadvantage far easier then he does to them. His disadvantage state isnt horrid, but he does have one. Where is ZSS disadvantage? Or Pikachu?

This isn't us randomly guessing. This is based on our collective results and who struggles with who where and where they don't struggle with them in other places.

Diddy is either neutral or Ike's advantage, I'd personally guess neutral. ZSS is varying opinion between -1 and +1, admitedly bouncing more between -1 and 0 which is why I said "one Ike suspects". Pika has always struggled a bit more against sword characters, and in this case has one that can play virtually laglessly.

Olimar we haven't really had that much of a problem with either. Fox is a case of "both characters are killing each other insanely quickly", but from what we've tested Fox can't confirm into a KO on Ike as quickly anymore with the jab changes (jab 2 can still lead into Usmash and stuff yes but it does so later. Fox boards has yet to given us exact numbers, our testing shows it being fairly late). Before the patch it was sitting at -1 most likely, but now we're killing him sooner (Like 70% anywhere off of a grab, potentially as low as 40-50% off of a grab by the ledge) and he's killing us most likely a tad later.

We're not saying that we crush those characters, and as I said before opinion bounces all over the place which makes it really difficult to put any solid numbers down on anything. Pretty much every top level MU though is in the 45:55 to 55:45 range, with a few poking into 60:40 and Sheik being 40:60. Next closest thing we have to an agreed upon MU number is Mario, with somewhere between -1 and 0.

Trust me, its a headache to try to figure. There's a reason why I didn't post a spread for Ike's top level MUs when people were doing that here a while back: there would have to be like "-1, -1 OR 0, -1 OR 0 OR +1, 0, 0 OR +1, +1" as our category spread and it just looks messy. Too much much in the way of variation in how people play Ike to nail down much of anything. One person's -1 is another person's +1.

Even Ryo, who is considered the best Ike by a lot of people, has things we can point out as being rather sub-optimal. Way too much Usmash, not nearly enough Uair, doesn't go for the Eruption edgeguard enough, doesn't space with Nair against shield optimally, sub-optimal throw follow up choices...

 

[Man Li Gi]

Ike's reward will always make him seem better than he actually is. Same goes for DK. For similar reasons, they can never be "high tier" just because of their design. DK and Ike have almost Ness-levels of grab reward but that won't change how bad their disadvantage and neutral states are. I don't believe they are high tier but they have the tools to work. It's hard to get in but once you do you can hit like a truck, which keeps you in the game. When Ike can do in 1 hit what Sheik can do in 5, you're never really out of the game. The problem is that Sheik can get 5 hits very easily. So where does that leave Ike? Mid tier.

But when was the last time you were hit by a truck? People say when you get in, but that's taking into account that your opponent makes a mistake. To me, to be high tier+ means that you can approach, land, and can throw out hitboxes with minimal consequence and since no heavy has that option they will always have that stigma. Playing heavies like those means you have to be smarter than your opponent, be calm at all times, never thirsty, but opportunistic, and think far in advanced. The payoff is the same hopefully, but it's just more satisfying due to the work put in and possible shattering of one's confidence (easily the top reasons I love to play heavies). If you become impatient l, well you've lost.

 

[Minordeth]

I don't normally talk about Lucina because Marth, but I have this sneaking suspicion that she has the advantage on Roy. Roy's uh, "hilter" put him in a weird place against Lucina's sword. Her constant, high damage, and superior range seem to make it an uphill battle for Roy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They both stomp Roy.

Where have you been?

 

[Minordeth]

I know Marth does, but I forget Lucina is a thing that exists.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Ike's disadvantage stage is below average, not terrible. Bair hits more than behind him and is frame 7, and he also has both counter and aether as ways to get out of some of those situations as well. His aerial speed is pretty great. His dash -> shield is one of the better ones in the game (every character has a different timing for when they can shield out of a dash). His recovery is also pretty decent and not as bad as people think. Quick Draw is fairly hard for people to realistically punish: we can aim above the stage and just slide along with no landing lag, aim for the ledge, aim for a platform, or aim below the ledge and still grab it. If you're trying to stop it, you're basically playing a guessing game with the odds in Ike's favour most of the time. Aether likewise can either poke into the stage to punish people trying to edgeguard us, or grab the ledge from farther than most people realize: I'd say roughly a whole another spinning sword length away in both directions.

Projectiles frankly aren't that big of a deal. The moment you're in dash attack range you basically have to stop using them otherwise you're going to get punished: potentially taking 24% damage if you time it just wrong so that dash attack hits you and the projectile at the same time as it makes it hit twice. Any chip damage you tacked on's advantage will be removed within a hit or two. His neutral game overall is actually pretty good: the moment he enters mid range you're forced to respect him, Bair/Fair both auto cancel, Nair is -2 on shield, and you have to fear Dtilt/Jab/Grab and all that they can lead into. And everyone and their mother keeps picking Smashville and while I hate the stage personally... it also means that if you're using projectiles you have even less space to be outside of Ike's Dash Attack range.

Eruption frankly, is quite possibly OP'd at edgeguarding. Best onstage edgeguarding move in the game by a country mile. 7 frames to hit somebody trying to grab the ledge OR go over it, with super armour, and most likely KOing if they're off stage in the first place? We're just getting better and better at the timing on recoveries. Sheik is almost free to hit with it if she has to use Vanish, the timing is too obvious.

SM was literally 1 win away from top 32 at EVO. And he's not one of the top 3 Ikes. And he ended up against somebody who had been housed by an Ike player for the tournament and practiced against him a whole bunch. And this was before the Uair buff which puts it on absolutely insane levels and its KOing a good 20-30% sooner than before. Ryo is absolutely crushing his region right now, constantly beating Static Manny and does well when he travels outside of his local area. San is just starting to get back into SSB4 and is consistently winning his tournaments. We have an Ike in the UK that is starting to go on a tear as well.

Ike simply has too good of an advantaged state and a "not quite as bad as you think" disadvantage state to not be high tier. You're free to argue where in high tier he is, but he's undeniably there now. We have both the theory and the results to prove it.

Doesn't he also have the best Jump Cancel Glide Toss in the game? I've always thought that was kind of random, seeing as he can only do it against a character who creates items. (Diddy, Peach, Mega Man, Pac Man, Toon Link, Link, Bowser Jr., and ROB. And Wario? Not sure if you can do that with an item like his motorcycle. Plus Robin, although he doesn't really produce them at will.) I have to imagine that helps in those match-ups. That's 8 match-ups, not including Robin and Wario. That's a lot. He has that as a terrifying punish option against about 15% of the cast, considering how amazing his up-smash is.

And side-b's combo potential is terrifying.

So yeah, it's undeniable that he's theoretically high tier. He has a better claim to that than Yoshi, who most consider to be high tier with comparatively little justification. But he certainly doesn't have the results of a high tier character just yet. He will though. People just haven't realized how good he is yet.

 

[DanGR]

Confirming that Ike most likely beats Rosalina. It's not fun.

 

[bc1910]

I think Ike is in that "solid but not top tier" group with Yoshi, Pit and friends. It's a big group, where the characters are pretty much equal in terms of ranking but have differing strengths and weaknesses against top tiers.

Whether Ike is high tier or not is down to each person and barely matters. Depends on whether you have qualms about saying 20+ characters are at least "high tier". Even though Ike is "high tier" by traits and results he's still not better than the 21 characters on this thread's front page. A couple of arguable exceptions but it's trivial. Ike hovers around the #20 mark. There are too many characters as good or better than him for him to be higher.

Point being he's in that maybe-sorta-kinda-viable group below the top tiers. The "we'd be killing it if Sheik didn't exist" group.

 

[Illuminose]

I think Ike is in that "solid but not top tier" group with Yoshi, Pit and friends. It's a big group, where the characters are pretty much equal in terms of ranking but have differing strengths and weaknesses against top tiers.

Whether Ike is high tier or not is down to each person and barely matters. Depends on whether you have qualms about saying 20+ characters are at least "high tier". Even though Ike is "high tier" by traits and results he's still not better than the 21 characters on this thread's front page. A couple of arguable exceptions but it's trivial. Ike hovers around the #20 mark. There are too many characters as good or better than him for him to be higher.

Point being he's in that maybe-sorta-kinda-viable group below the top tiers where every member would be better if Sheik didn't exist.

except yoshi is actually a top tier and pit is an actual high tier. key difference here is that Ike is invalidated by sheik, yoshi/pit are not (even or relatively even matchups).

 

[Ikes]

That's where I met my stop sign. Unless we nerf Luigi's D-throw (Please don't without some huge compensations), his other throws could just be let as they are as Luigi already has a F6 grab, F8 dash grab, and F9 pivot grab, the fastest in the game, along with the best D-throw in the game. ZSS is kinda undertandable because she has a bad grab, but she's already Top 5 so IDK if we should buff her.

Yeah... perhaps it's fine. But if his throws can be possibly buffed in such ways that he has other options but don't make him OP please do.

Anyhoo, I'll just ask this again. Is Zelda still bad? Buffs are coming but do they really lend a hand to Zelda? Or will she require more buffs to pull her out of 'bottom tier' spot? I'm curious.

if we're talking about fastest overall grab, thats mega man

IIRC his standing grab is frame 5 and im not sure about pivot and dash but im pretty sure its faster than 8 and 9

I can agree with this. He most likely just misses the cut.

Also were there no good wario players? I feel like wario is at risk of being the next Luigi: overhyped cp char that ends up losing to both characters and players who learn the matchup. He needs some more results soon or he's gonna drop in people's eyes just like Luigi.

pretty much no one plays wario tbh
If jeepysol attended bigger tourneys we'd probably see more placements, that guy is a legend

 

[Minordeth]

Eh, Ike has both good theory behind him and is actually getting results. If/when, he pulls some regionals, that will pretty much cement him being viable. Ike, currently, has more going for him than Yoshi, or Pit, and friends. Who is a top player that spanks their region with Pit?

EDIT: This isn't a rhetorical question, btw.

 

[A_Kae]

if we're talking about fastest overall grab, thats mega man

IIRC his standing grab is frame 5 and im not sure about pivot and dash but im pretty sure its faster than 8 and 9

It's F6. Dash and Pivot are 8 and 9, respectively.

No grab comes out earlier than F6.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ike isn't high tier

He's good, and easily the strongest of the FE clan. But high tier? I just don't see it.

 

[Minordeth]

We have no idea where the high/top tier demarcation is in this game. We know Sheik is the best character. That's about it.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I think Ike is in that "solid but not top tier" group with Yoshi, Pit and friends. It's a big group, where the characters are pretty much equal in terms of ranking but have differing strengths and weaknesses against top tiers.

Whether Ike is high tier or not is down to each person and barely matters. Depends on whether you have qualms about saying 20+ characters are at least "high tier". Even though Ike is "high tier" by traits and results he's still not better than the 21 characters on this thread's front page. A couple of arguable exceptions but it's trivial. Ike hovers around the #20 mark. There are too many characters as good or better than him for him to be higher.

Point being he's in that maybe-sorta-kinda-viable group below the top tiers. The "we'd be killing it if Sheik didn't exist" group.

If Sheik didn't exist, everyone would be happier. There would be no war. And we could all live together peacefully.

 

[PK Gaming]

We have no idea where the high/top tier demarcation is in this game. We know Sheik is the best character. That's about it.

No, we have a pretty clear indication of the top and high tiers in this game.

You'd have to have a clear misunderstanding of the Smash IV meta to not know who the tournament staples (aka high tiers) are at this point. It's the edge cases that are a mystery at the moment.

 

[Tainic]

Ike isn't high tier

He's good, and easily the strongest of the FE clan. But high tier? I just don't see it.

idk about the strongest, Marth and even Robin got really big buffs this time around, they might be equal to him. (Marth, at least.)

 

[Minordeth]

Only one thing matters, and that is viability. We have over 50 characters in this game, and we have a handful of ideas outside of Sheik as to which ones are viable. In such a large cast, getting a sense of viability is going to rely on player interest, player skill, and the actual potential of a given character. It's going to take an inordinate amount of time to figure all this out, so instead of worrying about where a character sits on a tier list that we may never have, figure out if they can get results and play the damn game.

No, we have a pretty clear indication of the top and high tiers in this game.

You'd have to have a clear misunderstanding of the Smash IV meta to not know who the tournament staples (aka high tiers) are at this point. It's the edge cases that are a mystery at the moment.

Who is the first high tier character in the game outside of the top tier? What makes them meaningful different than the last character in top-tier? In this game, what is a meaningful difference between a high tier and a top tier, and who are those characters?

This is what I am addressing, and I don't really care about the frequency of character appearances, because the meaning of that data is ambiguous.

deleted double and merged.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

viability is just how many counters you have against you. if it's 1 or 2, then you're gonna have to pick up a secondary (some people would say just pick a better character, but why should i have to go to a less fun character to win with when i could pull another character under my arms) to cover those. you have more than 3, you're probably better off dual-maining, or keeping that character as a fun secondary.
plus, I would say that thinking sheik invalidates ike just because it's in her favor (idk by how much, but if it's a counter, then boo hoo, grab mario) isn't a really sound argument.

 

[Smog Frog]

everything was peaceful, until the sheikah nation attacked

but real talk, is it


(gap)
everyone else
or


everyone else

 

[PK Gaming]

Only one thing matters, and that is viability. We have over 50 characters in this game

Most of which aren't very viable, given the tournament results we've had thus far.

and we have a handful of ideas outside of Sheik as to which ones are viable.

(Strong) Tournament viable characters include: Sheik, Sonic, Mario, ZSS, Diddy, Captain Falcon, Luigi, Rosalina, Olimar, Villager, Wario, Fox, Yoshi, Ness and Pikachu.

Edge cases: (A handful of characters)

I didn't just pull this out of my ass. It's consistent with what we've seen so far in tournaments and the Japanese tier list (which isn't wholly representative of our own meta admittedly, but a decent baseline for sure).

getting a sense of viability is going to rely on player interest, player skill, and the actual potential of a given character. It's going to take an inordinate amount of time to figure all this out, so instead of worrying about where a character sits on a tier list that we may never have, figure out if they can get results and play the damn game.

We have the results and opinions from good players to make informed statements. Are they a 100% accurate? God no, but you're being willfully ignorant at this point if you think it's impossible to determine a character's viability at this point.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We have no idea where the high/top tier demarcation is in this game. We know Sheik is the best character. That's about it.

Best character is Sheik.
Top tier are those that lose no more than -1 to Sheik and generally don't lose anything more than -1 ... Fox, ZSS, Pikachu, Diddy, couple of others maybe.
High tier are those that have a -2 somewhere in their matchup chart [usually Sheik] but have generally favorable matchups overall ... Rosie, Sonic, Falcon, MK, Wario, Greninja, maybe Villager

Everybody else isn't high tier. Everybody else is unviable to different degrees including Ike, Luigi and Mario [who are all not bad by any means].

 

[Baby_Sneak]

wow..umm....
What is unviable? is it because you need a secondary? does that mean you're unviable?

 

[PK Gaming]

idk about the strongest, Marth and even Robin got really big buffs this time around, they might be equal to him. (Marth, at least.)

Marth's certainly a lot better, but I don't think he's quite at the level of Ike yet (who got some key buffs himself)

And take it from me, even with his various buffs, Robin is nowhere Ike's level.

wow..umm....
What is unviable? is it because you need a secondary? does that mean you're unviable?

Perhaps not in the strictest sense of the word (I mean any character can feasibly win...) but if you're talking consistent high level play, then yeah most of the cast is unviable.

 

[Rhus]

Yeah, I co-main Robin with Fox and...

The buffs were heavily appreciated but he honestly went from bottom tier to about the top of low. The highest he can probably ever get in his current state would be the exact middle of the cast, but that's pushing it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@DACIT comment: I don't know if its the best, but he does still have his from Brawl yes. Harder to pull off, but still amusing. Particularly against Diddy. DACIT -> Banana hitting -> Reverse Fsmash for the KO was a thing that happened in tournament back in Brawl.

@Sheik "invalidating" Ike: You should ask VoiD how he feels about that after he lost to SM's Ike. Its 40-60, that's not invalidating.

A super super simplified version of the how the MU plays is this: during Ike's first 80%, he's largely getting bounced around while tacking on a few random hits here and there. After 80%, Sheik's combos stop working so well against Ike, his combos are working perfectly fine, MU starts swinging towards him a bit. Within lets say, 3-4 hits, Sheik is in potential danger of dying because Ike is still at rage and not dead yet. Shortly after that point, it starts becoming "whoever can land the first solid move first takes the stock".

If Ike takes it, Sheik comes back but her combos still aren't working well against Ike so he's free to tack on extra damage until she finally kills him. If Sheik takes it, Ike has to quickly try to land a solid blow before Sheik tacks on too much damage. There is also a constant factor of "if Sheik ever has to use Vanish to recover while Ike is anywhere near the stage edge, she's most likely dead". If she gambles with recovering through bouncing fish and we read it, its a free Fsmash (has happened in tournament).

Its 40-60 because Ike's window where he can reasonably kill Sheik and she can't quite kill him yet isn't as large as we'd like it to be. She can also capitalize a bit better on taking the first stock better than Ike can. If she had a better recovery it might be a different story.

---

As it stands, Ike doesn't need a secondary. Some people might opt for one, but there isn't any MU you can point to and go "Ya you need somebody else to handle them". Every MU is reasonably winnable.

I know the MU range for Ike I suggested is hard to swallow, but just remember that when I initially said Ike beats Sonic there were some doubts going around. And then I posted that set of videos, which I think is further proven by Static trying to use Roy instead of Sonic against Ryo the following time.

We're not crazy. Just not enough coverage of what we can do as some people would like.

 

[Minordeth]

Most of which aren't very viable, given the tournament results we've had thus far.

(Strong) Tournament viable characters include: Sheik, Sonic, Mario, ZSS, Diddy, Captain Falcon, Luigi, Rosalina, Olimar, Villager, Wario, Fox, Yoshi, Ness and Pikachu.

Edge cases: (A handful of characters)

I didn't just pull this out of my ***. It's consistent with what we've seen so far in tournaments and the Japanese tier list (which isn't wholly representative of our own meta admittedly, but a decent baseline for sure).

We have the results and opinions from good players to make informed statements. Are they a 100% accurate? God no, but you're being willfully ignorant at this point if you think it's impossible to determine a character's viability at this point.

I'm aware of what characters are currently in the viability running. Out of 50 something there will (or will not) be more. You are shifting the goal posts. I responded to you noting Ike as not being high tier. What you, and others, are casually pulling out of your ass, is translating viability, which we have seen some of, into tier placement, which is a lot harder.

 

[Balgorxz]

Best character is Sheik.
Top tier are those that lose no more than -1 to Sheik and generally don't lose anything more than -1 ... Fox, ZSS, Pikachu, Diddy, couple of others maybe.
High tier are those that have a -2 somewhere in their matchup chart [usually Sheik] but have generally favorable matchups overall ... Rosie, Sonic, Falcon, MK, Wario, Greninja, maybe Villager

Everybody else isn't high tier. Everybody else is unviable to different degrees including Ike, Luigi and Mario [who are all not bad by any means].

I kind of like the way this guy makes the tier list, based on sheik.
I'm pretty sure mario is one of the best characters in the game(top5) and has great results in tournamentss but if he can't beat sheik then its pointless, this game is really balanced so making tier lists like other smash games might not be the best option.
it's pointless having +2/+1 matchups against 80% of the cast when you have -2 with the 20% that matters(see luigi).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

wow..umm....
What is unviable? is it because you need a secondary? does that mean you're unviable?

I'm talking about a character's ability to hit the big time in a national tournament by himself. Not necessarily win the whole thing but at least can be expected to make it into the top 8 regardless of circumstances [such as bracket luck]. If you're -2 or higher against Sheik you're pretty much out of the question already. If you're -2 against Fox or ZSS you're pretty much borderline unviable because neither character is particularly hard for a top level player to pick up and do well with. Since the majority of the roster loses to at least one of those three characters -2 or worse there really aren't many characters that are solo-vable for tournament play on a level above local or regional.

I'm pretty sure mario is one of the best characters in the game(top5) and has great results in tournamentss but if he can't beat sheik then its pointless, this game is really balanced so making tier lists like other smash games might not be the best option.
it's pointless having +2/+1 matchups against 80% of the cast when you have -2 with the 20% that matters(see luigi).

Disagree with just about all of this.

Mario is not one of the best characters in the game, he does not have "great" tournament results at all and this game isn't anywhere near as balanced as a lot of people like to tell themselves.

 

[Zelder]

Gheb you still haven't explained why you think Mario is unviable or not top ten.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm aware of what characters are currently in the viability running. Out of 50 something there will (or will not) be more. You are shifting the goal posts. I responded to you noting Ike as not being high tier. What you, and others, are casually pulling out of your ***, is translating viability, which we have seen some of, into tier placement, which is a lot harder.

Uh, viability and tier placement pretty much go hand in hand. The top and high tiers consist of the tournament staples. The exact placements aren't important, but you can certainly get a general grasp who's high tier at this point. So when I say "Ike isn't high tier" i'm saying he isn't a tournament staple. This shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp.

 

[Minordeth]

Best character is Sheik.
Top tier are those that lose no more than -1 to Sheik and generally don't lose anything more than -1 ... Fox, ZSS, Pikachu, Diddy, couple of others maybe.
High tier are those that have a -2 somewhere in their matchup chart [usually Sheik] but have generally favorable matchups overall ... Rosie, Sonic, Falcon, MK, Wario, Greninja, maybe Villager

Everybody else isn't high tier. Everybody else is unviable to different degrees including Ike, Luigi and Mario [who are all not bad by any means].

Tiers aren't solely based around the MU with one character. Regardless, my main point is that there isn't a consensus on any of this, because we are less than a year into this game, and we can't accurately pin-point tier lists or placement. This community is placing way too much value into what tiers actually are and say.

Uh, viability and tier placement pretty much go hand in hand. The top and high tiers consist of the tournament staples. The exact placements aren't important, but you can certainly get a general grasp who's high tier at this point. So when I say "Ike isn't high tier" i'm saying he isn't a tournament staple. This isn't a hard concept to gasp.

Dude. "Top" and "high tier" are things that have meanings. Equating a "tournament staple" with being in a tier placement is not what referring to someone as "high tier" actually means. Your definition muddles the accepted meaning of what "high tier" represents.

 

[Pyr]

Tiers aren't solely based around the MU with one character. Regardless, my main point is that there isn't a consensus on any of this, because we are less than a year into this game, and we can't accurately pin-point tier lists or placement. This community is placing way too much value into what tiers actually are and say.

How can you say that tiers aren't solely based around a matchup when SSBB DDD exists? He was a legit gatekeeper lol.

And it's almost been a year. 10 months. We can accurately pin-point who's at the top and who's... Well... Not. At least for the current competitive state of the game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb you still haven't explained why you think Mario is unviable or not top ten.

The character simply isn't that good / others are better? Cover his usmash once you're at like 120% and this character will never kill you. His aerials are good but top tier characters can cover them with pivot tilts/smashes and his ground options aren't that great. From about 80% or so onwards [basically whenever he can't initiate combos through throws anymore] you can just shield camp the hell out of him because there's nothing he can really pressure you with and the reward from his throws starts to become very unimpressive.

Tiers aren't solely based around the MU with one character.

If you can't beat the best, most common character in a game - one that's not very hard to pick up and become good with - then you're not viable. I don't think that's a hard concept to grasp.