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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
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Ikes
Smash Journeyman
dont see how people are still putting Luigi low when he's still "Press B to take neutral" and his advantage is still arguably one of the best (maybe number 2 to sheik)
sure his disadvantage isnt great but he has such an easy time avoiding disadvantage
sure his disadvantage isnt great but he has such an easy time avoiding disadvantage
Illuminose
Smash Ace
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- Mar 6, 2015
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- 671
I'm not really interested in posting a full, order tier list here, but I actually do think there's a pretty good line for where we can determine what the best characters are. Not necessarily in order.
Top 3 indicated by results (and theory):
---small drop---
Other top characters:
---small drop---
Remaining heavily viable/'high tier' block:
Other high tiers (high mid? no point in semantics):
Characters that are on the cusp of high tier:
Not all of these are characters in placings where people would normally put them, so I'll explain my thoughts. When I think of top/high tiers, I think of characters that have real potential (and results). As in, characters that can actually make it at the top, characters that can achieve high placings at higher events. A lot of the characters that players will traditionally place in high tier or high mid tier, whatever, aren't really capable of pulling results at a higher level.
Sheik + Pikachu + ZSS is pretty clearly our top 3 at this point. Recent results point toward it and so does most theory. Sheik's matchup spread is pretty much unmatched, boasting even or positive matchups against every character in the game outside Lucario, who is a niche soft counter. Her safe, dominant neutral including the best zoning projectile in the game transitions fluidly into her great damage racking combos and an advantageous position (her edgeguarding is really good while it's very difficult to edgeguard her). The best player in the world (ZeRo), the best player in Europe and top 5 overall (Mr R), arguably the best player in Japan (Rain), and various other top/high level players have achieved great results with the character. Pikachu doesn't have a wide playerbase of results, but ESAM has achieved incredible enough results at top level to make players respect the character (and we saw a great showing from Nakat's Pikachu at Smash Con as well). Pikachu's matchup spread is second only to Sheik. Loses to Luigi, but that matchup isn't even too bad in itself and he does really well against Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus, as well as an even matchup vs Sheik and even or positive matchups against pretty much every other character. ESAM was recently within a hit of taking a set off ZeRo, placing second at Smash Con and Top 8 at both CEO and EVO including taking out players like Nairo and Dabuz. Zero Suit Samus struggles with Pikachu but does fine or better vs pretty much everyone else. The most threatening part about Zero Suit Samus is that you can truly never count her out. Her neutral is awkward to learn at first, but once you do her pressure becomes really scary and difficult to deal with. Her grab is limiting, but she can confirm into grab with her zair and neutral air. Her reward off grabs is really huge too, and she can pressure regardless so holding shield only gets you so far. This is a character that does not struggle remotely with killing; dthrow or falling up air -> up air -> up air -> up b can kill early, nair -> down b and dsmash -> down b are both true combos into an incredible powerful spike, bair can be set up off a dthrow or dsmash and kill...bottom line, Zero Suit Samus converts hard and is a really scary character. We have Nairo, top 5 in the world with top 3 placings at all of the summer nationals, and Choco, top 3 in Japan having taken sets off players like Rain and Ranai.
The other characters I put in the top group are mostly intuitive. Characters that we've seen results from, characters that we know from our theorycrafting and use of logic belong in this group. Some might be quick to point out Luigi, but I don't think Luigi belongs any lower. Luigi does have issues with Sheik and Rosalina, but he does well against most other characters, including characters like Pikachu, Fox, Diddy Kong, Mario, and Captain Falcon. His neutral is really good and his reward is difficult for much of the cast to keep up with. You can't really put him with characters like Falcon and Wario either. Meta Knight I feel has proven that he belongs within the top tier fold. You can't have that good of a matchup spread (his only losing top tier matchup is Zero Suit Samus and maaaaaaaybe Sonic) and not be a top tier. He has a top tier matchup spread and he belongs in top tier.
The next group of characters is what I think most people would put. One after that is prolly weird to some, but I think there are strong cases for each character. Most would put Greninja in high tier, most would probably put Pac around there, so I won't say much about those. I think G&W is easily a high tier. He goes even with Sheik and has generally good or even matchups against every top tier except Rosalina (including pretty solid matchups against ZSS, Luigi, and Ness). It's that simple. Songun has strong results against Sheiks in Japan (beat both Rain and Nyanko at the most recent Umebura) that indicate this matchup being even btw. Peach is a character that a lot of people consider to be sleeper high tier. Not amazing results (Umeki has great results in Japan, not too much in the US outside SlayerZ some), but it's clear that she has that potential. Toon Link is an interesting case because there are no notable Toon Links in the US. Like, at all. However, there have been great placings from Toon Links in other regions. Hayato recently took a set from Rain at Umebura 18 (I keep bringing up this tournament because a lot of players did well at this tournament and it's the most recent one), and Hyuga brought Mr R to game 5 in Mexico. These are clear indications that Toon Link can perform at a top level. His projectile zoning is really good; his bomb confirms give him really good kill options (this is a character with little issue killing you at 80 if he hits the bomb); he has a kill throw. Toon Link is actually just a good character.
Below this level, there are some characters that can perform well, but they have more crippling bad matchups/flaws that prevent them from being as viable. This is basically the group of characters I'd call 'tournament viable' and rough groupings of them.
Top 3 indicated by results (and theory):
---small drop---
Other top characters:
---small drop---
Remaining heavily viable/'high tier' block:
Other high tiers (high mid? no point in semantics):
Characters that are on the cusp of high tier:
Not all of these are characters in placings where people would normally put them, so I'll explain my thoughts. When I think of top/high tiers, I think of characters that have real potential (and results). As in, characters that can actually make it at the top, characters that can achieve high placings at higher events. A lot of the characters that players will traditionally place in high tier or high mid tier, whatever, aren't really capable of pulling results at a higher level.
Sheik + Pikachu + ZSS is pretty clearly our top 3 at this point. Recent results point toward it and so does most theory. Sheik's matchup spread is pretty much unmatched, boasting even or positive matchups against every character in the game outside Lucario, who is a niche soft counter. Her safe, dominant neutral including the best zoning projectile in the game transitions fluidly into her great damage racking combos and an advantageous position (her edgeguarding is really good while it's very difficult to edgeguard her). The best player in the world (ZeRo), the best player in Europe and top 5 overall (Mr R), arguably the best player in Japan (Rain), and various other top/high level players have achieved great results with the character. Pikachu doesn't have a wide playerbase of results, but ESAM has achieved incredible enough results at top level to make players respect the character (and we saw a great showing from Nakat's Pikachu at Smash Con as well). Pikachu's matchup spread is second only to Sheik. Loses to Luigi, but that matchup isn't even too bad in itself and he does really well against Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus, as well as an even matchup vs Sheik and even or positive matchups against pretty much every other character. ESAM was recently within a hit of taking a set off ZeRo, placing second at Smash Con and Top 8 at both CEO and EVO including taking out players like Nairo and Dabuz. Zero Suit Samus struggles with Pikachu but does fine or better vs pretty much everyone else. The most threatening part about Zero Suit Samus is that you can truly never count her out. Her neutral is awkward to learn at first, but once you do her pressure becomes really scary and difficult to deal with. Her grab is limiting, but she can confirm into grab with her zair and neutral air. Her reward off grabs is really huge too, and she can pressure regardless so holding shield only gets you so far. This is a character that does not struggle remotely with killing; dthrow or falling up air -> up air -> up air -> up b can kill early, nair -> down b and dsmash -> down b are both true combos into an incredible powerful spike, bair can be set up off a dthrow or dsmash and kill...bottom line, Zero Suit Samus converts hard and is a really scary character. We have Nairo, top 5 in the world with top 3 placings at all of the summer nationals, and Choco, top 3 in Japan having taken sets off players like Rain and Ranai.
The other characters I put in the top group are mostly intuitive. Characters that we've seen results from, characters that we know from our theorycrafting and use of logic belong in this group. Some might be quick to point out Luigi, but I don't think Luigi belongs any lower. Luigi does have issues with Sheik and Rosalina, but he does well against most other characters, including characters like Pikachu, Fox, Diddy Kong, Mario, and Captain Falcon. His neutral is really good and his reward is difficult for much of the cast to keep up with. You can't really put him with characters like Falcon and Wario either. Meta Knight I feel has proven that he belongs within the top tier fold. You can't have that good of a matchup spread (his only losing top tier matchup is Zero Suit Samus and maaaaaaaybe Sonic) and not be a top tier. He has a top tier matchup spread and he belongs in top tier.
The next group of characters is what I think most people would put. One after that is prolly weird to some, but I think there are strong cases for each character. Most would put Greninja in high tier, most would probably put Pac around there, so I won't say much about those. I think G&W is easily a high tier. He goes even with Sheik and has generally good or even matchups against every top tier except Rosalina (including pretty solid matchups against ZSS, Luigi, and Ness). It's that simple. Songun has strong results against Sheiks in Japan (beat both Rain and Nyanko at the most recent Umebura) that indicate this matchup being even btw. Peach is a character that a lot of people consider to be sleeper high tier. Not amazing results (Umeki has great results in Japan, not too much in the US outside SlayerZ some), but it's clear that she has that potential. Toon Link is an interesting case because there are no notable Toon Links in the US. Like, at all. However, there have been great placings from Toon Links in other regions. Hayato recently took a set from Rain at Umebura 18 (I keep bringing up this tournament because a lot of players did well at this tournament and it's the most recent one), and Hyuga brought Mr R to game 5 in Mexico. These are clear indications that Toon Link can perform at a top level. His projectile zoning is really good; his bomb confirms give him really good kill options (this is a character with little issue killing you at 80 if he hits the bomb); he has a kill throw. Toon Link is actually just a good character.
Below this level, there are some characters that can perform well, but they have more crippling bad matchups/flaws that prevent them from being as viable. This is basically the group of characters I'd call 'tournament viable' and rough groupings of them.
David Viran
Smash Lord
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Sheik does not have the best advantage state imo. Killing is a factor and other characters are way better at it. Along with them having comparable damage racking.
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Ikes
Smash Journeyman
PUK
Smash Ace
It's actually been awhile that he plays Greninja, but he used to play PacMan and Falcon in his serious matches. I think he felt like he need to find something against ZSS as she becomes more and more popular in France. But his choices created some other vocation, so we have now 3 greninja (mostly secondaries though) in our scene.
French tier list should look like this now
We don't believe in Fox
Marcbri
Smash Lord
Our results sure must be weird for people, I blame our Sheik players for being inactive. Our meta atm has these characters appearing in top 8 (only 1 rep usually, sometimes sheik gets 2):
And then whatever MaZzone (Joannett in Brawl) is playing, lately
I wonder what people think about DDD, in theory he's not good but there's so many players using him here and noone else in the rest in the world that it's weird.
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RedBeefBaron
Smash Journeyman
His neutral is not bad at all with the buffs to f tilt and shuriken on top of Nair, fair, ss, dash attack, dash grab, HP, and substitute. Nothing he has its sheiks fair or needles good but he had a lot of great tools that allow him to function just fine in neutral when used together while utilizing his mobility intelligently.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Wut.
Greninja's shurikens by themselves win neutral against a lot of characters that can't approach well. He has good spacing tools in F-Air, Hydro Pump and F-Tilt and his dash grab is one of the best in the game. All this on a character with some of the best mobility specs in the game.
His neutral is far from bad, much less god-awful.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm kind of curious, does Shulk actually get results in France?It's actually been awhile that he plays Greninja, but he used to play PacMan and Falcon in his serious matches. I think he felt like he need to find something against ZSS as she becomes more and more popular in France. But his choices created some other vocation, so we have now 3 greninja (mostly secondaries though) in our scene.
French tier list should look like this now
We don't believe in Fox
Woohoo982
Smash Apprentice
Imo this is what characters are competitively viable:
VIABLE:[customs on ]
Nearly Viable(A bit more rep and results needed)
Not Viable(<--read)[1111]
VIABLE:
[customs on ]Nearly Viable(A bit more rep and results needed)
Not Viable(<--read)
[1111]
ILOVESMASH
Smash Ace
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Since when did a character having a -2 matchup against other top tiers stop them from being viable? IIRC Falco in Brawl and Captain Falcon in Melee were considered viable characters despite having -2 matchups against Ice Climbers and Falco respectively.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Here's my top ten after thinking about it for like 5 minutes.
1-5
Sheik ZSS pikachu Diddy Mario
It could be 1-4 really but I decided to include Mario here. I know the Diddy nerfs killed him but realistically I couldn't put another character here. To sum up my logic here neutral advantage disadvantage mobility and recovery are the most important factors. Mario is lacking in recovery the most.
6-10
Fox Luigi MK Rosalina Ryu
These characters are a cut below all though MK is rising. People probably won't agree with the idea of Ryu being top ten. However, he's a ridiculously strong character and as his meta develops he's only going to be stronger. Rosalina is trending downwards dabuz can't top 8 anymore /sarcasm.
Characters who could've probably been in top ten but aren't are falcon and Sonic. After the nerfs to sonic he doesn't seem the same threat he used to be. Despite Falcon's nerfs he's still a threat.
That's basically my top ten ATM.
1-5
Sheik ZSS pikachu Diddy Mario
It could be 1-4 really but I decided to include Mario here. I know the Diddy nerfs killed him but realistically I couldn't put another character here. To sum up my logic here neutral advantage disadvantage mobility and recovery are the most important factors. Mario is lacking in recovery the most.
6-10
Fox Luigi MK Rosalina Ryu
These characters are a cut below all though MK is rising. People probably won't agree with the idea of Ryu being top ten. However, he's a ridiculously strong character and as his meta develops he's only going to be stronger. Rosalina is trending downwards dabuz can't top 8 anymore /sarcasm.
Characters who could've probably been in top ten but aren't are falcon and Sonic. After the nerfs to sonic he doesn't seem the same threat he used to be. Despite Falcon's nerfs he's still a threat.
That's basically my top ten ATM.
Ikes
Smash Journeyman
Top tens?
with at 11
with
at 11
PUK
Smash Ace
One does. Not glaring result, but top 8 in regional, 2nd or 3rd at locals.
And first at the official nintendo tournament lol
Smog Frog
Smash Lord
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ehm
nerfs aside from the bthrow nerf were largely irrelevant. the only reason people give a **** about the fsmash nerf is because it was found in the data mine. the bthrow nerf didnt affect where he would have been anyways; it barely affected his relevant matchups aside from some +2 maybe turning into +1. do nerfs affect her placement? because all of her nerfs were about as relevant as nerfs were.
nerfs aside from the bthrow nerf were largely irrelevant. the only reason people give a **** about the fsmash nerf is because it was found in the data mine. the bthrow nerf didnt affect where he would have been anyways; it barely affected his relevant matchups aside from some +2 maybe turning into +1. do nerfs affect her placement? because all of her nerfs were about as relevant as nerfs were.
**Gilgamesh**
Smash Ace
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- A character that gets next to no results at nationals or majors yet people theory-craft he's high tier / beats a decent amount of top tiers... [0-o]I think it's pretty safe to say that he's not HIGH tier at this moment. Also I really doubt that he does that well vs Top Tiers at high/top level. Have any top level Ike's even face other top level players that uses top tiers like Dabuz, Esam, Nairo, Mr.R Larry Lurr, Mr.Concon, J.Miller, Japanese players and win sets or even attempted, anyone?
If not then I really don't see any justifiable claim that he's a High tier character since not only does he gets no results at Nationals/Majors but he also have very questionable match-ups against Top Tiers atm with only people (apparently who don't even go to Nationals or majors) claiming they beat half of the top tiers or go even with them sorry but this is not credible in my eyes? Match-Ups can be seen very apparently at high level. Just look at Nairo vs Esam at Smash Con or Nairo vs Fatality or ZeRo vs Fatality at Smash Con and you can see how Match-Ups are.
Not trying to say Ike is a bad character, he's a solid character, but please don't overate your characters when they have no results that people consider highly about (Evo/CEO/Smash-Con/) Etc.
Even
placed top 32 at Smash Con by False who went Marth the entire tournament.
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Duplighost
Smash Ace
What makes Wario top tier? Or Meta Knight?Top tens?
with
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needs to beat Dabuz, Esam, Nairo, Mr. R, Larry, etc. to be considered high tier? That's a pretty high goalpost lol. Isn't Static Manny, VoiD, Zenyou, Zan, etc. enough?SM got right below 32nd at evo, whatever place that is.
Ikes don't travel. I know which Ikes go to which tournaments and have an idea how he will place. Ike had a pretty good chance at performing well at CEO but Ryo admittedly didn't do so well. Since then, Ike has received a major buff to his uair which is good since Ike struggled a bit with reliable vertical kill moves since the old uair was a little too weak. Look at some of my older posts and I mention uair's weakness quite often.
I'm not sure where I'd place Ike since I haven't seen how the new patch affected some characters. I feel quite a few of his MUs got better though.
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Tainic
Smash Apprentice
Fox just isn't that popular in France, I guess people aren't too fond of him. (I ain't either.)
PUK
Smash Ace
It's because we have a strong but home-loving scene. The result is that outside of the ones that will main X even if he's not the best, everyone plays the top tiers the bests players plays. Few top player put time into fox (it was the case befor, but then diddy and sheik happened), therefore few players use him. He's not unseen in tournament but it's often lost melee players lol
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
To emphasize this: Static Manny is considered the best Sonic and got 9th at APEX and EVO. If Ike needs to beat the best of a top tier character, depending on who's list you go by he's already done that. 3 times in the last 2 weeks.
SM got right below 32nd at evo, whatever place that is.
Ikes don't travel. I know which Ikes go to which tournaments and have an idea how he will place. Ike had a pretty good chance at performing well at CEO but Ryo admittedly didn't do so well. Since then, Ike has received a major buff to his uair which is good since Ike struggled a bit with reliable vertical kill moves since the old uair was a little too weak.
I'm not sure where I'd place Ike since I haven't seen how the new patch affected some characters. I feel quite a few of his MUs got better though.
Ikes
Smash Journeyman
results and their current state
Abadango got top 8 at both apex and EVO. Meta Knight has been seeing increasing results and use since his recent series of buffs and clearly has a lot of strengths to show for it.
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Cassio
Smash Master
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Ike Pikachu isnt too bad for ike, if the ike is better he should be able to beat pika. It becomes harder at higher levels mostly because pikachu has a wider array of options, but pika doesnt beat him for any specific reason. A solid hit on pika can take ike pretty far. Another part of what makes this comparatively harder at top level is that punish game efficiency has greater disparity between a low-high level pika then a character like mario or ZSS, etc.
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Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
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So, it's just like the treatment Ike gets in Japan. It would have been "funny" in a twisted way if Fox was neglected in England because of "McCloud". I should stop while I'm ahead...
Eh, I guess Fox's in the same position as Wolf was in Brawl; a good character few played. After Kain stopped playing, only Seagull was left as the notable Wolf for Brawl. Oh well, whatever I guess. I wonder who's the "Yoshi" of France. This unbeatable entity, but is actually a character around the low high to mid tier.
Illuminose
Smash Ace
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wait wait
how is ike having favorable or even matchups vs the two characters with the best edgeguarding in the game? doesn't really make sense.
how is ike having favorable or even matchups vs the two characters with the best edgeguarding in the game? doesn't really make sense.
Makes sense.
Top level Ike players really started to work on footstool combos, especially after CEO. We have dthrow->footstool down, but raw nair->footstool punishes have their potential to be pretty good, since subsequent nairs stale, allowing for a better punish. Ikes have started to optimize their strings as well, opting not to use the guaranteed attacks that knock opponents away sometimes and trap again with his numerous trapping aerials.
Problem with Ike's uair is that he needs to be near frame perfect if they DI away and it's difficult to tell when the true combo is barely out of reach due to rage. If they DI away at the cusp %, Ike needs to buffer a dash for it to combo. Luckily, Ike's uair doesn't need to combo since it lasts around 16 frames with full kill power. It also doesn't combo to kill % from the ground on floatier characters. Ike needs to get a grab on a platform for it to true combo to kill on floaties.
These are only tests vs CPUs, but it somewhat demonstrates what may be possible given the correct choice in tournament and better conditions, since it's far easier for me to just make these in a few minutes lol.
The good Ikes have little trouble with recovery.
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Illuminose
Smash Ace
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Ike's recovery is really linear. There's a lack of competent edgeguarding going on if Ike is recovering for free.
Nu~
Smash Dreamer
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And yes, this can start killing near the center of FD at 60%
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Cassio
Smash Master
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I think punish game optimization is one of the primary reasons its hard to judge where true viability lands now. Coming from melee I've realized how significant this is, especially in the last year as you've seen the swedes dig deep into fox's toolkit and not only maximize their punishment, but become consistent at executing it in tournament. You see this more and more with other characters in melee as well, and it didnt really exist in Brawl (had its own way of handling punishes). Not only that, outside top level melee you can see the huge difference a lack of efficiency and consistency can have on results even at a very high level.
Its why suddenly we see metaknight come from the depths of unviable to make a splash (I know the buffs are important, but his improved efficiency over the months has definitely served its part and MK is more straightforward in that department).
Oh yeah, its also a big reason why Zero and to an extent nairo are a step ahead of everyone else.
I actually forgot about footstools but depending on how deep the top level players go into the game Im sure that will play its part too.
Its why suddenly we see metaknight come from the depths of unviable to make a splash (I know the buffs are important, but his improved efficiency over the months has definitely served its part and MK is more straightforward in that department).
Oh yeah, its also a big reason why Zero and to an extent nairo are a step ahead of everyone else.
I actually forgot about footstools but depending on how deep the top level players go into the game Im sure that will play its part too.
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For me, Pacman is the only character in all of smash where he just does ****, and it's sooooo cooooool! Pac's nuetral is cool! His advantage is cool! His disadvantage is cool! Z-dropping is cool!
If I really have to go through this:
- Aerials beat out obvious direct aggression.
- Quick Draw on release has a hitbox on frame 2. This means that the burden is on the opponent and Ike can just react. Quickdraw has blind spots diagonally above and below. Ike won't die if hit with decent DI.
- Quick draw can be timed to autocancel on landing if he feels like it, or he can time a release when he wants and the opponent overcommitted to an action.
- Ike can perform any action after Quick Draw's swing.
- Ike falls fast, so he can fast fall into aether before many can catch him. Aether's hitbox and super armor triggers on frame 18 and the hitbox is quite large. Opponents that are hit by aether below the stage are vulnerable to an aether spike or 15-20 damage.
- Aether is vulnerable to spikes, so Ike needs to aim the aether sword at the opponent so they can't position themselves for spikes. Ike should also position aether at its maximum grab distance.
- If Ike DIs poorly, an immediate double jump goes higher than usual, allowing for a last ditch jump+QD recovery. This is vulnerable to attacks, but Ike is likely to survive and have another chance with DI.
Nu~
Smash Dreamer
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Indeed. But when you whiff a grab and die at 100 to a charged smash attack, you cry
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
Contributing to the discussion a page or two ago, tier lists actually only care about solo viability. That is why matchup charts are so much more relevant and interesting, although also a mess to make especially in a game with 55 characters.
Also food for thought, is everyone sure Sheik, Pika and ZSS are the current top 3 in the meta or is it rather Zero, Esam and Nairo? There aren't any more Sheiks, Pikachus or ZSS' taking tournaments than there are characters like Fox, Rosalina, Diddy, Luigi and Sonic. They just win majors because they're being used by godly players, although I'm still not saying they couldn't be the top 3 especially in the case of Sheik.
Also food for thought, is everyone sure Sheik, Pika and ZSS are the current top 3 in the meta or is it rather Zero, Esam and Nairo? There aren't any more Sheiks, Pikachus or ZSS' taking tournaments than there are characters like Fox, Rosalina, Diddy, Luigi and Sonic. They just win majors because they're being used by godly players, although I'm still not saying they couldn't be the top 3 especially in the case of Sheik.
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
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If Ike never has to leave the stage, then he doesn't need to deal with his bad recovery. It's the same theory Little Mac, Diddy, Melee and PM Falco work with. Hell, even Smash 4 Falco since as long as he never has to leave the stage involuntarily, he's fine.
That's the entire problem. Nobody goes out to edgeguard and if they do, it's a trainwreck. The fact people cite that ZSS players have ledge trumping down is a testament to the fact people are bad at the game. Basic skills like ledge trumping should be done by every player, but nope. You see it countless times where people just sit there and wait. Is it safe? Yes, but then you have savvy players like MVD and ZeRo launching Diddy's Rocketbarrel Boost right at you and you're dead. Recovering is free when practically everyone lets it happen. When I see Fox and Falco players use Fire Fox or Bird right next to the ledge even if it's during practice, I cringe. You see them do that and you spike the hell out of them and if you don't have a spike, then stage spike them, gimp them, kill them.
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