Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

If I really have to go through this:

• Aerials beat out obvious direct aggression.
• Quick Draw on release has a hitbox on frame 2. This means that the burden is on the opponent and Ike can just react. Quickdraw has blind spots diagonally above and below. Ike won't die if hit with decent DI.
• Quick draw can be timed to autocancel on landing if he feels like it, or he can time a release when he wants and the opponent overcommitted to an action.
• Ike can perform any action after Quick Draw's swing.
  
• Ike falls fast, so he can fast fall into aether before many can catch him. Aether's hitbox and super armor triggers on frame 18 and the hitbox is quite large. Opponents that are hit by aether below the stage are vulnerable to an aether spike or 15-20 damage.
• Aether is vulnerable to spikes, so Ike needs to aim the aether sword at the opponent so they can't position themselves for spikes. Ike should also position aether at its maximum grab distance.
  
• If Ike DIs poorly, an immediate double jump goes higher than usual, allowing for a last ditch jump+QD recovery. This is vulnerable to attacks, but Ike is likely to survive and have another chance with DI.

If Ike properly saves his jump or DIs fine, he should be fine. Ike usually dies onstage when he gets punished by something.

To add to this, if Ike was knocked upwards and starts charging QD he can:

1) Aim for a platform on most stages, land with no extra landing lag
2) Aim fairly high above the main platform and still land with no extra landing lag due to how QD works
3) Have from fairly high up all the way to the stage level to aim for, landing with no extra lag
4) Aim for the stage ledge
5) Aim for under the stage ledge and still grab it
6) Aim for the opponent if they've over committed to something.

Is the recovery itself linear? Sure. But its not like Fox's Side B where once it starts you know exactly what he's doing and what he's aiming for. Once Ike starts charging QD, the opponent is stuck playing a guessing game with fairly bad odds.

@ Ffamran 's comments about edgeguarding: that's another reason why Ike's Eruption is so good. We have one of the most lethal and reliable edgeguarding methods... and its borderline risk free.

 

[PUK]

Oh well, whatever I guess. I wonder who's the "Yoshi" of France. This unbeatable entity, but is actually a character around the low high to mid tier.

Idk, mostly because i'm not sure of the meaning. But among french players that are showing really good result, pac man is the character the most outside the box, with bowser jr maybe. But elexiao, the pac man (and greninja/falcon) could at most being in the low top 8. Don't know if he has a wiiU yet, maybe he will show more upset.

 

[Kaladin]

Idk, mostly because i'm not sure of the meaning. But among french players that are showing really good result, pac man is the character the most outside the box, with bowser jr maybe. But elexiao, the pac man (and greninja/falcon) could at most being in the low top 8. Don't know if he has a wiiU yet, maybe he will show more upset.

Wait, people outside of Tweek get results with BowJow?

 

[Illuminose]

If I really have to go through this:

• Aerials beat out obvious direct aggression.
• Quick Draw on release has a hitbox on frame 2. This means that the burden is on the opponent and Ike can just react. Quickdraw has blind spots diagonally above and below. Ike won't die if hit with decent DI.
• Quick draw can be timed to autocancel on landing if he feels like it, or he can time a release when he wants and the opponent overcommitted to an action.
• Ike can perform any action after Quick Draw's swing.
  
• Ike falls fast, so he can fast fall into aether before many can catch him. Aether's hitbox and super armor triggers on frame 18 and the hitbox is quite large. Opponents that are hit by aether below the stage are vulnerable to an aether spike or 15-20 damage.
• Aether is vulnerable to spikes, so Ike needs to aim the aether sword at the opponent so they can't position themselves for spikes. Ike should also position aether at its maximum grab distance.
  
• If Ike DIs poorly, an immediate double jump goes higher than usual, allowing for a last ditch jump+QD recovery. This is vulnerable to attacks, but Ike is likely to survive and have another chance with DI.

If Ike properly saves his jump or DIs fine, he should be fine. Ike usually dies onstage when he gets punished by something.

Ike's aerials have pretty bad IASA frames. If he goes for an aerial he's commiting hard to it and may not even make it back. Ike has to get back to the stage. An aerial off-stage is a 55+ frame commitment. Let's just say you go for a forward air. Your hitbox isn't out until frame 12. It ends on frame 15 and then you can't act until frame 55. Quick Draw has a linear path and Ike has to release eventually. A projectile like Sheik's needles or a Luma ledge trap is eating that up. Any character that can challenge something horizontally without much commitment can deal with Ike's Quick Draw. You're overrating it. Then you knock Ike away from the stage and he's dead. This isn't a difficult edgeguard for a character with good edgeguarding tools.

'DI' doesn't beat everything. You live longer with DI. That's sort of what DI is. Good DI doesn't entirely rectify a recovery that is either straight horizontal or straight vertical. If you are hit down and away from the stage, Ike is dead.

 

[Wintropy]

Idk, mostly because i'm not sure of the meaning. But among french players that are showing really good result, pac man is the character the most outside the box, with bowser jr maybe. But elexiao, the pac man (and greninja/falcon) could at most being in the low top 8. Don't know if he has a wiiU yet, maybe he will show more upset.

When he says "Yoshi", he means a character that is ostensibly extremely good and widely hyped up to the max, yet is in reality quite flawed and mid to high-tier at best.

I think the Irish scene is quite diverse in our selection of characters. As I recall, there's only a single Sheik and Rosalina in the current Top 10, with a few distinct outliers that get results such as Mega Man and Peach.

 

[Ikes]

Side B is really fast, UpB has Super Armor and the sword throw to cover it.

That might be a linear recovery but you can't say it's easy to edgeguard.

it only has armor when he's not moving upwards.

 

[migul]

Ike's recovery is really linear. There's a lack of competent edgeguarding going on if Ike is recovering for free.

Ike's up b has super armor, helped by a top 15 air speed.

 

[Ffamran]

Gonna add onto my previous post, I may play a character known for his edgeguarding, but that's a sad thing to be known for. Countless characters have good edgeguarding and they don't make use of it. Ever dealt with a giant disjoint? Ike and Shulk would love to smack your *** away from the ledge. Ever kissed the toes of an evil, old man? Ganondorf has been doing that **** since Melee.

Fox players going for shine spikes now aren't edgeguarding. They're styling and trying to recreate Melee in a game where Reflector is not Melee's frame 1 Reflector. What they should be doing is making use of Nair's lingering frames and the fact you can do a stupid thing where Fire Fox and Fire Bird kind of linger at the ledge. Hell, trapping people with Fair and attempting to Fair spike them is better even though it's risky. Trying and failing gets you a 50%, but not doing anything gets you a 0.

Oh, and what the hell is up with people trying to get that 1 frame or Dairing onto the ledge. Are you stupid? 1 frame is like playing the lottery and Dairing onto the ledge is letting yourself suffer unwanted landing lag. Hell, you all see people run off the ledge and attack thin air while the opponent is way above them and they know it. I'm damned sure they ain't blind. So why? What the hell are you doing running off and using an aerial like that? If you jumped and intercepted them, that's better even if they don't die. At least you're pressuring them and damaging them. Even if you miss, at least you don't look stupid attacking thin air.

Playing like a "scrub" and spamming Mario's Fireballs is still a better option than sitting there and waiting for your opponent to come back. This ain't a gentleman's duel. If it were, everyone would be using rapiers or flintlock pistols, but do people do that? No, we've got hammers, swords, bombs, superpowers, and dirty boxing.

At the same time, spamming projectiles despite your opponent clearly being above or below where you're firing is also stupid. Out of your range and still firing is also stupid. Freaking Little Mac and Shulk might have horrible Bairs for ledge trumps, but guess what? They can ledge trump, get back on the stage, and force you to grab the ledge or get onto the stage where they're waiting. Little Mac would gladly play ledge grab and Down Smash your face. The game's almost a year old and the edgeguard game is almost the same: a trainwreck. Only a couple of players do it well and that's because they're playing characters who are "safe" edgeguarders like Jigglypuff. Really? Jigglypuff edgeguarding is a thing when Jigglypuff can glide around the air and jiggle-slam your face in. Sheik should be Fairing you away from the ledge every chance she gets. Oh, you're close to the stage, again? ***** slap. Again? ***** slap. Sheik should be ****-slapping you like A Pimp Named Slickback and not waiting around checking her shoes.

Wait, people outside of Tweek get results with BowJow?

Andy_Sauro, a defensive Bowser Jr. Look him up.

 

[wedl!!]

Falco is solo viable? D3 is nearly viable and DK isn't?

What.

IMO top 10 is

 

[PUK]

Wait, people outside of Tweek get results with BowJow?

MU inexperience is a strong factor, but still

 

[NachoOfCheese]

They do exist. Robin, for example, is not solo main viable simply because the Sheik matchup is like 1:99. To be solo viable, you must have no hard counters, many winning matchups, and winning/even/not bad against the other solo-viables. How many characters (customs off) have that?

Like twelve

 

[Djent]

I'm beginning to think Fox could end up being better than both ZSS and Pika, but those two are both still up there.

 

[san.]

Ike's aerials have pretty bad IASA frames. If he goes for an aerial he's commiting hard to it and may not even make it back. Ike has to get back to the stage. An aerial off-stage is a 55+ frame commitment. Let's just say you go for a forward air. Your hitbox isn't out until frame 12. It ends on frame 15 and then you can't act until frame 55.

If you're not even sure if Ike makes it back or not, that makes me question how much you know. Ike can fastfall fair at BF's side platform height and make it back with a double jump. Ike can slow fall fair at stage level and make it back with aether without a double jump. Not many characters fall faster than Ike. The characters that do fall faster than Ike don't really want to chase him that low nor have that tools to gimp. Ike can reactionary fastfall into aether. Even better if the opponent has to jump or is forced to air dodge or get hit.

Quick Draw has a linear path and Ike has to release eventually. A projectile like Sheik's needles or a Luma ledge trap is eating that up. Any character that can challenge something horizontally without much commitment can deal with Ike's Quick Draw. You're overrating it. Then you knock Ike away from the stage and he's dead. This isn't a difficult edgeguard for a character with good edgeguarding tools.

How are needles and luma edge trap going to gimp? It's a committment where anything in front of him will be hit with a 2-frame attack once close. Ike can autocancel upon landing at various heights based on what the opponent does. Even if Ike gets hit, he's not going to die easily since hard punishments take a lot of commitment. Sure, Ike can get hit, but what is the reward for the opponent and will Ike lose a stock from it?

'DI' doesn't beat everything. You live longer with DI. That's sort of what DI is. Good DI doesn't entirely rectify a recovery that is either straight horizontal or straight vertical. If you are hit down and away from the stage, Ike is dead.

DI can be the difference of providing you with a multitude of recovery options or just a few. Ike only ever dies if hit down and way from the ledge with no double jump. I believe a good majority of characters are dead at that point, too.


I'm probably the best source for knowing Ike's recovery options along with the ways to exploit it and counterplay to each exploit. Not just theorycraft, but 7 years experience of rarely ever getting gimped.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Solo main viability isn't the end all be all of a character's viability.

 

[Djent]

It's not the be-all end-all of usefulness, that's for sure (since most top players have multiple characters anyway). A character with some 6:4s and some 3:7s is likely more useful than a character with 4:6s and 5:5s across the board if we assume a multi-character scenario. But I'm not sure how you distinguish between "solo main viability" and viability; it seems redundant to me.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Alright everyone! So I sat down and went over a ton of data and collected numbers to do something kind of special: A Power Rankings "Tier List".

Let me explain more. I took all of the power rankings listed here, took down who was using which characters, took how high the players were and weighted it a bit for secondaries and such, then found which characters were having the most success among top players from all these regions. I only counted the top 10 in any poweranking (since most folks only go to ten). It's not exactly a perfect list obviously, but I think it shows characters that have had some relevance in the meta a good bit and by how much they are making an impact. HERE WE GO!

---​

S(evere Dominance):
A(nnihilates a lot of folks):
B(etter than a lot of others):
C(onsistently decent):
D(on't count them out)
E(xpect them to make dents in bracket)
F(orgetting them would be unfair)
G(et rekt scrubs) (they only character to have NO top 10 representation)

---​

So, if you wanted to look at characters based on results in a really unique way, here's something cool for you. Obviously this doesn't exactly show character viability, but it shows some other interesting stuff (characters getting used at a high level and succeeding often, characters getting repped often, etc.)

Anyone gain some cool insights from this?

 

[Tainic]

The thing is that it forces you to get a second main, and dedicate about as much time as you dedicate to your other main to play it remotely well enough to win stuff, Sheik (And arguably ZSS & Pika.) don't have that problem, the time you dedicate to main, say, Wario and Luigi, you can dedicate it to develop your solo Sheik, meaning you'll have about twice as much training with a solo Sheik than splitting it between your dual main, making Sheik a relatively easy to pick character that doesn't ask for a lot of commitment to pick.

So yes, solo main viability means something, it means that character's metagame will probably improve faster than the other ones, because of its metagame expanding quicker, it also means that you can be a total idiot who knows nothing about the MU and still do well, while a clueless player could pick Luigi against a RosaLuma like it's a good idea. Obviously because the amount of training poured into a single character far outweights the one split between multiple mains, it also means that your results with that one, solo viable main, are going to be greater than with a dual main, who got less training.

Not saying Dual Maining is bad, I'm a dual Main myself, but you can't deny that most of the time, solo maining one of the top 1/2/3 charas is the best idea.

 

[Cassio]

The big 5


I think sits just on the outside until theres more info. This isnt necessarily the best 5 or an ordered list, but I think if anyone else joins this top tier group (Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, etc.) it wont be to the exclusion of the others. Its easier to tell with these characters because they have comparable strengths.

Edit: Also this isnt just a list of characters that are capable of beating sheik. Sonic, Mario, Villager, Lucario, maybe DK, etc. perhaps have an OK MU vs her.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's not the be-all end-all of usefulness, that's for sure (since most top players have multiple characters anyway). A character with some 6:4s and some 3:7s is likely more useful than a character with 4:6s and 5:5s across the board if we assume a multi-character scenario. But I'm not sure how you distinguish between "solo main viability" and viability; it seems redundant to me.

You're right, I was just saying my thoughts in the recent train of thought. I personally heavily disagree with it

 

[Smog Frog]

imo you can solo main . he only has -1 against (and most of his mains dont think is that bad of a matchup, some say he wins or goes even) and goes even with a few others, and then from there, he along with , is everyones worst nightmare. just browsing the character boards a large majority of them place him as their top 3 worst matchups. i dont really think he can be outside of top 5. he's up there with the likes of etc.

my personal top 10 would be:




i dont think there's any disputing that are the 2 best characters. the following 3 can really be any combination of with a combination of rounding out the top 10(though i think and , while certainly good, are riding a bit of a hype train)

call it main bias but i dont see a way you can think of as less than top 5.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The thing is that it forces you to get a second main, and dedicate about as much time as you dedicate to your other main to play it remotely well enough to win stuff, Sheik (And arguably ZSS & Pika.) don't have that problem, the time you dedicate to main, say, Wario and Luigi, you can dedicate it to develop your solo Sheik, meaning you'll have about twice as much training with a solo Sheik than splitting it between your dual main, making Sheik a relatively easy to pick character that doesn't ask for a lot of commitment to pick.

So yes, solo main viability means something, it means that character's metagame will probably improve faster than the other ones, because of its metagame expanding quicker, it also means that you can be a total idiot who knows nothing about the MU and still do well, while a clueless player could pick Luigi against a RosaLuma like it's a good idea. Obviously because the amount of training poured into a single character far outweights the one split between multiple mains, it also means that your results with that one, solo viable main, are going to be greater than with a dual main, who got less training.

Not saying Dual Maining is bad, I'm a dual Main myself, but you can't deny that most of the time, solo maining one of the top 1/2/3 charas is the best idea.

Who said anything about dual-maining? Just have a secondary for an occasion. Also, if the sheik player doesn't know the MU as nearly as well as you do, then you force the sheik to play in those limits (but how well you're able to do that is a matter of execution) and then he/she will start to fold because they won't know what to expect. And just solo-maining ANY character is bound to get you dead at a higher level, since everybody will have experience against that one character and will know the MU as well as you, and no to mention they will have a second character that you have to deal with mentally and psychologically (knowing what to do at certain ranges, edge guarding, beating their pokes etc... And having the burden to play through possible discomfort since it is possible you don't feel 100% fighting fox, sonic, villager, etc...). I mean, how smart is it to only play sheik in tournies where everybody and their little cousin has played a couple sheiks at least in their time? Or luigi. Or fox. Or captfalcon. You will need a secondary to keep things consistent and in control since dealing with a weird character with no backup is kinda scary.
So like honestly, I think trying to solo main anybody is like really questionable since they will have to deal with 20+ MUs (counting characters that people use at tournies) along with some rare and wild card characters like shulk, BowJow, Bowser, Lucario, the DLC characters (I consider them that since they're not nearly as developed as the others included their MUs).

 

[hypersonicJD]

Wh does every Sonic main say that Ike defeats Sonic? I really can't get it. For me it's even or Why? Pretty simple: STOP SPAMMING SPIN DASH.

Short Hop Fair it's really good for pressuring Ike, since he doesn't have that quick of an attack, you can keep juggling him with Fairs because his height it's good enough to hit him with it. You also have to be very careful from him. You make use of Fair when Ike is recovering from an attack or when he's falling into the stage. Sonic also has some of the best grabs in the game, so using it it's not a bad idea. Especially Up Throw and Down Throw. Also using Down Tilt it's good for trips and can set up Sonic's attacks. Spring can save your life from a combo and Ike won't be able to follow you at all. You have to be very careful with Ike. Ike is now a really strong character. And he is pretty good at racking up damage. But shielding doesn't hurt at all and some of Ike's attacks have some end lag (Like Jab, Up Tilt, Dash Attack and Down Tilt. I didn't wanted to put any of his smash because a capable Ike won't be spamming them at all). Also, Back Air + Quick Draw = Bye bye Ike. Sonic's Bair is really good and beats out Quick Draw pretty easily (in my experience though). And I know Ike has Up Throw and Down Throw combos (Down Throw to Aether? That is a ton of damage and almost innescapable). If you don't spam Spin Dash too much and really be careful about Ike. It's an even match-up for Sonic. Or maybe another Ike main can prove me wrong and say why this match-up is -1 for Sonic. I really want to discuss this stuff with good arguments. Maybe i'm not the best at explaning myself and giving opinions. But I do want to help at the competitive scene.

Any arguments are welcome. And this would help me understand more match-ups about my Blue Hedgehog.

 

[Jiggly]

Alright everyone! So I sat down and went over a ton of data and collected numbers to do something kind of special: A Power Rankings "Tier List".

Let me explain more. I took all of the power rankings listed here, took down who was using which characters, took how high the players were and weighted it a bit for secondaries and such, then found which characters were having the most success among top players from all these regions. I only counted the top 10 in any poweranking (since most folks only go to ten). It's not exactly a perfect list obviously, but I think it shows characters that have had some relevance in the meta a good bit and by how much they are making an impact. HERE WE GO!

---​

S(evere Dominance):
A(nnihilates a lot of folks):
B(etter than a lot of others):
C(onsistently decent):
D(on't count them out)
E(xpect them to make dents in bracket)
F(orgetting them would be unfair)
G(et rekt scrubs) (they only character to have NO top 10 representation)

---​

So, if you wanted to look at characters based on results in a really unique way, here's something cool for you. Obviously this doesn't exactly show character viability, but it shows some other interesting stuff (characters getting used at a high level and succeeding often, characters getting repped often, etc.)

Anyone gain some cool insights from this?

I find it interesting how high Yoshi is, yet people say he has no rep.


Also, poor puff

 

[Browny]

Alright everyone! So I sat down and went over a ton of data and collected numbers to do something kind of special: A Power Rankings "Tier List".

Let me explain more. I took all of the power rankings listed here, took down who was using which characters, took how high the players were and weighted it a bit for secondaries and such, then found which characters were having the most success among top players from all these regions. I only counted the top 10 in any poweranking (since most folks only go to ten). It's not exactly a perfect list obviously, but I think it shows characters that have had some relevance in the meta a good bit and by how much they are making an impact. HERE WE GO!

---​

S(evere Dominance):
A(nnihilates a lot of folks):
B(etter than a lot of others):
C(onsistently decent):
D(on't count them out)
E(xpect them to make dents in bracket)
F(orgetting them would be unfair)
G(et rekt scrubs) (they only character to have NO top 10 representation)

---​

So, if you wanted to look at characters based on results in a really unique way, here's something cool for you. Obviously this doesn't exactly show character viability, but it shows some other interesting stuff (characters getting used at a high level and succeeding often, characters getting repped often, etc.)

Anyone gain some cool insights from this?

Ganon confirmed Badass tier.

 

[Ikes]

Alright everyone! So I sat down and went over a ton of data and collected numbers to do something kind of special: A Power Rankings "Tier List".

Let me explain more. I took all of the power rankings listed here, took down who was using which characters, took how high the players were and weighted it a bit for secondaries and such, then found which characters were having the most success among top players from all these regions. I only counted the top 10 in any poweranking (since most folks only go to ten). It's not exactly a perfect list obviously, but I think it shows characters that have had some relevance in the meta a good bit and by how much they are making an impact. HERE WE GO!

---​

S(evere Dominance):
A(nnihilates a lot of folks):
B(etter than a lot of others):
C(onsistently decent):
D(on't count them out)
E(xpect them to make dents in bracket)
F(orgetting them would be unfair)
G(et rekt scrubs) (they only character to have NO top 10 representation)

---​

So, if you wanted to look at characters based on results in a really unique way, here's something cool for you. Obviously this doesn't exactly show character viability, but it shows some other interesting stuff (characters getting used at a high level and succeeding often, characters getting repped often, etc.)

Anyone gain some cool insights from this?

whats the point of this exactly?
This doesn't really tell us much.

 

[Vipermoon]

whats the point of this exactly?

Roy is a brand new character. He's not as developed and won't appear on many PRs

 

[san.]

Gunner would have 1 rep if Central NY did PRs. We all kind of know the rankings anyways and we probably aren't important enough for a PR just yet lol. Neither do we post our tournaments on smashboards (at least for smash 4 unless it's Syracuse)

 

[Browny]

needs to beat Dabuz, Esam, Nairo, Mr. R, Larry, etc. to be considered high tier? That's a pretty high goalpost lol. Isn't Static Manny, VoiD, Zenyou, Zan, etc. enough?

SM got right below 32nd at evo, whatever place that is.

Ikes don't travel. I know which Ikes go to which tournaments and have an idea how he will place. Ike had a pretty good chance at performing well at CEO but Ryo admittedly didn't do so well. Since then, Ike has received a major buff to his uair which is good since Ike struggled a bit with reliable vertical kill moves since the old uair was a little too weak. Look at some of my older posts and I mention uair's weakness quite often.

I'm not sure where I'd place Ike since I haven't seen how the new patch affected some characters. I feel quite a few of his MUs got better though.

You know the rules San, even if Ike beat that gauntlet of death, people would still say its a fluke, hes an outlier and it doesn't mean anything because it was the player winning, not the character. He is assumed to be mid/low tier and will forever stay there in peoples minds while supposed 'good' characters get a free ride into peoples high tier because of MYSTERY POTENTIAL.

Kind of like the exact same thing you suffered in Brawl

 

[Smog Frog]

i really dont like the way japan thinks of . he can be top tier in na and barely mid in japan. well, its smash 4 now, and perceived mediocrity is a free ride to high/top tier. you'll get there eventually.

 

[LiteralGrill]

whats the point of this exactly?
This doesn't really tell us much.

Well I noticed some talk wondering if Villager could really be considered top tier based on results earlier and this would show that this could easily be the case. It may also explain why folks still rank Yoshi so high despite him not doing much at bigger events: he's doing well regionally for sure.

Also look at some of the characters we normally consider bad that are showing up in power rankings ABOVE characters we tend to rate highly. It's honestly a bit interesting.

 

[Ghostbone]

Villager is one of the only characters that can claim top/high tier status based on results, just because of Ranai.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Gunner would have 1 rep if Central NY did PRs. We all kind of know the rankings anyways and we probably aren't important enough for a PR just yet lol. Neither do we post our tournaments on smashboards (at least for smash 4 unless it's Syracuse)

My local has a PR and it's a pretty small scene. Although like you said everyone knows who the bedt in our area is. So it's not something that needs to be considered as important just gives insight into your region.

 

[Teshie U]

Wh does every Sonic main say that Ike defeats Sonic? I really can't get it. For me it's even or Why? Pretty simple: STOP SPAMMING SPIN DASH.

Short Hop Fair it's really good for pressuring Ike, since he doesn't have that quick of an attack, you can keep juggling him with Fairs because his height it's good enough to hit him with it. You also have to be very careful from him. You make use of Fair when Ike is recovering from an attack or when he's falling into the stage. Sonic also has some of the best grabs in the game, so using it it's not a bad idea. Especially Up Throw and Down Throw. Also using Down Tilt it's good for trips and can set up Sonic's attacks. Spring can save your life from a combo and Ike won't be able to follow you at all. You have to be very careful with Ike. Ike is now a really strong character. And he is pretty good at racking up damage. But shielding doesn't hurt at all and some of Ike's attacks have some end lag (Like Jab, Up Tilt, Dash Attack and Down Tilt. I didn't wanted to put any of his smash because a capable Ike won't be spamming them at all). Also, Back Air + Quick Draw = Bye bye Ike. Sonic's Bair is really good and beats out Quick Draw pretty easily (in my experience though). And I know Ike has Up Throw and Down Throw combos (Down Throw to Aether? That is a ton of damage and almost innescapable). If you don't spam Spin Dash too much and really be careful about Ike. It's an even match-up for Sonic. Or maybe another Ike main can prove me wrong and say why this match-up is -1 for Sonic. I really want to discuss this stuff with good arguments. Maybe i'm not the best at explaning myself and giving opinions. But I do want to help at the competitive scene.

Any arguments are welcome. And this would help me understand more match-ups about my Blue Hedgehog.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that when people say something "counters" sonic or luigi or other annoying high tier, they are mostly talking about the brain dead typical playstyle you see from most of their reps. Ike is fast enough to keep up with Sonic and punish him where he is most vulnerable (bad Sonics will continuously put themselves in these same bad situations and call it a counter).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

whats the point of this exactly?
This doesn't really tell us much.

*sees loads of information about character use and representation*
"This doesn't mean anything"

 

[HFlash]

Well, people usually say that they have a bad MU on a certain character when they have to completely or at least partially change up their playstyle just for that one MU. For example, 2 Falcons who don't have alot of MU experiences will say either DDD or say Shulk are a bad MU if they mostly approach from either the ground or air. (From Falcon's perspective, you want to approach from the air vs DDD and ground vs Shulk). I could explain the specifics, but I think this gets the point across. Sonics just need to change up their approach to beat Ike.

*sees loads of information about character use and representation*
"This doesn't mean anything"

The data may be skewed because of certain variables, like character popularity (FALCON COUGH COUGH).* But for sure you can take something out of it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The data may be skewed because of certain variables, like character popularity (FALCON COUGH COUGH).* But for sure you can take something out of it.

Ganon's the more obvious outlier here, though Falcon's also overrepresented. Ganon's status as a noob-stomper as well as a fun character to play mean he's fairly well represented at locals and regionals, but isn't a factor at nationals since he struggles against high tiers, especially at higher skill levels. Conversely, Pika's amazing but is underrepresented given its tier position due to high tech-skill requirements. Also DLC characters are underrepresented due to players having less time to develop their metas.

 

[Ikes]

*sees loads of information about character use and representation*
"This doesn't mean anything"

it's not exactly anything important considering we've only seen 3 major tournaments and the game isnt even a year old

 

[Pyr]

Ya! We don't have nearly enough! I mean...

10 months of data, with 3 major tournaments, several nationals, regionals, etc. are all just insignificant! Not worth examining. Not at all.

</s>

Why hold off on examining this aspect with the data we have? It won't exactly change new data coming in, and finding nuances and trends earlier is better then later. What's the set amount of time for long enough? How many tournaments need to be held before it's enough? Why continue to write everything off?

There isn't a good reason at this point.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The big 5

Yes, 100% agreed with this man. This is exactly how the top 5 should look if you take theory, tournament performance and mtchups into account and put aside personal experience and bias. My personal order would be Sheik > ZSS > Fox / Pika > Diddy in the customless meta but regardless of the order I don't really see how any of those characters' place in top 5 is up to debate.

When he says "Yoshi", he means a character that is ostensibly extremely good and widely hyped up to the max, yet is in reality quite flawed and mid to high-tier at best.

So how does any of this apply to Yoshi? Nobody except me hypes Yoshi - almost everybody just parrots the some old "Yoshi is overrated" or "Yoshi is bad in neutral" nonsense. How can a character that everybody calls overrated by actually ... you know ... overrated? Yoshi isn't overrated at all ... hardly anybody even knows what this character can do .... including the so-called "good" Yoshi players.

 

[TriTails]

Viability Survey thread: Luigi is overrated and not top tier!

Some people in this very place are still calling him top tier.

Huh.