Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Baby_Sneak]

I promise, as soon as sheik gets a good nerf (hopefully not), ZSS, pika, and fox are next on the chopping block, until everyone is weaker than Samus or something.

 

[Zelder]

"Yeah that's true, there have been a lot more nerfs than buffs in the patches for Smash 4."

- a person who doesn't know what they're talking about

 

[Ikes]

OR..... we can have other characters buffed. Shiek may be the best character in the game atm, but why stale the meta game by limiting what she can do and instead, increase the range of possibilities and options for other characters. I would want to see more Shulk/Link/Marth/Ike treatments across the board instead of Shiek getting nerfed. Starting with .

Edit: Can someone give me an explanation why is getting consistent results? He isn't top 10, isn't getting alot of results, AND BRINGS THE HYPE (shout outs to Fatality bringing the hype during top 8 @ SmashCon.

because buffinf everyone to sheik levelswill mean everyone gets cheese and the game just becomes a big game of everyone trying to out-cheese each other

like if everyone had kong cyclone you'd be seeing that for like half the match

dont give everyone cheese

make everyone BALANCED

like captain falcon. That guy is the epitome of balance.

 

[Nu~]

I promise, as soon as sheik gets a good nerf (hopefully not), ZSS, pika, and fox are next on the chopping block, until everyone is weaker than Samus or something.

This is the very definition of "Slippery Slope Fallacy"

 

[HFlash]

This is the very definition of "Slippery Slope Fallacy"

I'm sure he was being hyperbolic on purpose, and it wasn't meant to be taken so literally.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This is the very definition of "Slippery Slope Fallacy"

people asked for diddy to get nerfed. diddy gets nerfed.
sheik is the new best character. people ask for her to get nerfed. sheik is getting touched a little.
i mean, this stuff is historical in gaming communities. you can't deny that lol.

 

[Jabejazz]

I'm sure he was being hyperbolic on purpose, and it wasn't meant to be taken so literally.

This thread in a nutshell.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

because buffing everyone to sheik levels will mean everyone gets cheese and the game just becomes a big game of everyone trying to out-cheese each other

like if everyone had kong cyclone you'd be seeing that for like half the match

dont give everyone cheese

make everyone BALANCED

like captain falcon. That guy is the epitome of balance.

lol. maybe if the game/changes is only out for like, 3-4 weeks. after that, things start to get figured out you know.

 

[T4ylor]

people asked for diddy to get nerfed. diddy gets nerfed.
sheik is the new best character. people ask for her to get nerfed. sheik is getting touched a little.
i mean, this stuff is historical in gaming communities. you can't deny that lol.

Yeh, Diddy got nerfed so hard that he went from being the best character to top 8 at worst. Sucks that he's hardly viable in this metagame anymore.

 

[hypersonicJD]

is not meta? explain please.

Everyone wants to get rid of Sonic, but they just want to hide it. It's not easy to be faaaaaaaaasst.

Sonic is at least Number 6 or number 7 in the tier list. Sure he has some bad match-ups but that doesn't put him aside from the Top 5 too much. And he goes even with Pikachu, can destroy Rosalina and Luma (If the Sonic player doesn't spam Spin Dash as always) and his Sheik match-up isn't so bad.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yeh, Diddy got nerfed so hard that he went from being the best character to top 8 at worst. Sucks that he's hardly viable in this metagame anymore.

i didn't say he's useless maybe read my post again? i'm saying everybody, regardles of whatever, will ask for nerfs to the best character in the game because unfair/OP/jank/unbalanced toolkit/stuff.

 

[Nu~]

I'm sure he was being hyperbolic on purpose, and it wasn't meant to be taken so literally.

Really?

people asked for diddy to get nerfed. diddy gets nerfed.
sheik is the new best character. people ask for her to get nerfed. sheik is getting touched a little.
i mean, this stuff is historical in gaming communities. you can't deny that lol.

You can't always be certain of a person's hyperbole on this board.

 

[Blobface]

We've been through this before. You can't just buff characters because you eventually reach a point where the character you're buffing is now hard countering other characters. Then you need to buff those characters and so on and so forth.

And to be completely honest, none of the top tiers really need straight-up nerfs as much as they need their abilities redistributed. For example, ZSS's Boost kick could have a bigger finishing hitbox in exchange for less power, to make little characters easier for her and make bigger characters more difficult (and yes I know she craps on bigger characters for more than just boost kick but you get the idea). Sheik could have her general safety decreased in exchange for having the ability to actually kill people below 150%.

 

[HFlash]

Yeh, Diddy got nerfed so hard that he went from being the best character to top 8 at worst. Sucks that he's hardly viable in this metagame anymore.

Ok let's be honest though, Pre nerf Diddy was pretty overwhelming. Having a good projectiles, set ups to smashes, a combo throw, a kill throw, good frame data, good air game, AND smashes that can kill as early as 60% is bad.... that is pretty cheesy. At the very least, shiek can't kill early with out a good edge guard, usmash, or vanish read. Albeit not the biggest deal, but she DOES have weaknesses, which can be used against (particularly with the rage mechanic in this game). There ARE plenty of characters that go even with her (i.e pika, kirby, mario, etc.) which is something you can't really say pre-patch Diddy. The game at least from a viewer and player perspective seems more exciting if my main may get buffed as opposed to putting work on a character who will most likely get nerfed. Nerfing Shiek is fine, but the better solution is to bring other characters up. The latter brings about more character diversity, the former just has people band wagon from one character to the next (like many Diddy mains hopping on Luigi train for his dthrow --> downspecial hoo hah).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Really?

You can't always be certain of a person's hyperbole on this board.

I didn't literally mean everyone will be worse than samus, that's really ridiculous.

 

[Nu~]

I didn't literally mean everyone will be worse than samus, that's really ridiculous.

You would be surprised with some of the stuff I've seen on this board lol

 

[Ikes]

We've been through this before. You can't just buff characters because you eventually reach a point where the character you're buffing is now hard countering other characters. Then you need to buff those characters and so on and so forth.

And to be completely honest, none of the top tiers really need straight-up nerfs as much as they need their abilities redistributed. For example, ZSS's Boost kick could have a bigger finishing hitbox in exchange for less power, to make little characters easier for her and make bigger characters more difficult (and yes I know she craps on bigger characters for more than just boost kick but you get the idea). Sheik could have her general safety decreased in exchange for having the ability to actually kill people below 150%.

this is the type of mindset I want to see

Like if Wario's Waft killed later but could combo easy out of a throw I'd be fine with that because he'd have a good setup into a good kill move

 

[Illuminose]

My perception is that the players of Yoshi who do go out to events and travel are simply outclassed. Not in character, mind you; Rosalina is somewhat of a rough break (although sitting there and throwing eggs isn't doing **** to Rosalina, there has to be a better strategy than that), but all of Yoshi's other top tier matchups are either even/very doable or in his favor. Yoshi can easily go toe-to-toe with characters like Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Fox, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Luigi, and Mario. These matchups are all either roughly even or in Yoshi's favor. Yoshi is not limited at dealing with top characters. The type of matchup spread that Yoshi has is indicative of a top 10 character. The predominant issue is that no top player that's picked up Yoshi (besides ESAM recently; maybe we'll see what comes of that). Why? For the same reason that there are very few Pikachu players and the same reason that there aren't many notable Rosalina players. Players don't rush to pick up quirky characters. Why? Because it takes a significant amount of time investment to even learn how to play the character, especially if the proper playstyle is non-intuitive. ESAM could take out ZeRo at Paragon and I bet we would not be seeing many more Pikachu mains, even though ESAM clearly showed that Pikachu is capable at a top level. This isn't to say that everyone who plays Yoshi is bad; what I simply mean to say is that Yoshi mains can get a lot better and fully utilize the tools they have.

@ Sinister Slush I think you've been skewing the opinion that these boards have about Yoshi quite a bit (underrating the character). I went to take a look at the Yoshi boards to see if I was crazy or something. Then I come across this thread. There I see posts like these:

I'm going to define "high tier" character as one having recent top results at a major tournament. Based on this definition, Pikachu is "high tier" literally just because of ESAM. No one else (that I'm aware of) plays that character anywhere close to such a high level.

Let's assume that Yoshi and Pikachu are roughly equivalent in that they can both be "high tier" if played by a suitably good player. How is ESAM using Pikachu's potential to its fullest and why aren't Yoshi players doing the same?

So, here's ESAM taking a game off of ZeRo with Pikachu at CEO 2015 (one of the few to do so): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-jljs8psXk&t=7m45s. Because it's ZeRo losing, no one can refute this is an important game to look at. During the game, ESAM used:

Uspec 16
Fspec 1
Nspec 31
Dspec 4
Uair 22
Fair 14
Nair 9
Bair 6
Dair 8
Utilt 5
Ftilt 0
Jab 0
Dtilt 4
DashA 1
Usmash 0
Fsmash 2
Dsmash 1
Grab 12
Shield 18
Roll 6
Dodge 8

Kill 1: (Sheik @ 124%) Roll -> Dash -> Grab -> Dthrow -> Jump -> Dspec (Sheik @ 158%)
Death 1: (Pikachu @ 176%) Shield Drop -> Fair (Pikachu @ 182%)
Kill 2: (Sheik @ 121%) Roll -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Jump -> Dspec (Sheik @ 148%)

As a Yoshi case-study, let's look at KDB's play. He was the highest-placing Yoshi at CEO 2015 (top-32) and was sent to the loser's bracket by none other than ZeRo himself. Here's a very close game between him and Phuzix (top-24 Sheik at CEO 2015) from last month: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29y4n97aOCo&t=2m45s. During the game, KDB used:

Uspec 23
Fspec 0
Nspec 2
Dspec 2
Uair 4
Fair 21
Nair 23
Bair 0
Dair 0
Utilt 0
Ftilt 0
Jab 13
Dtilt 0
DashA 0
Usmash 1
Fsmash 1
Dsmash 0
Grab 1
Shield 17
Roll 1
Dodge 20

Kill 1: (Sheik @ 61%) Jab -> Jab -> Jump -> Fair (Spike) -> Fsmash (Sheik @ 96%)
Death 1: (Yoshi @ 121%) Grab -> Pummel -> Uthrow -> Jump -> Uair (Yoshi @ 137%)
Almost Kill 2: (Sheik @ 91%) Roll -> Jab -> USmash (Shielded, Sheik @ 93%)
Death 2: (Yoshi @ 136%) Grab -> Pummel -> Fthrow -> Jump -> Fair (Yoshi @ 150%)

Watching both games, there are some similarities:

• Both players use defensive options very well (For Glory scrubs like me roll all over the place, ruining our options)
• Both players ONLY use smash attacks when they've read an opportunity for a kill
• Both players essentially never use dash attacks
• Both players rely heavily on projectiles for spacing when transitioning from Disadvantaged -> Neutral (Nspec for Pikachu, Uspec for Yoshi)
• Both players rely heavily on quick aerial moves for setting up strings (Uair and Nair for Pikachu, Nair for Yoshi)

There are, however, some very glaring differences:

• KDB spams air dodges while attempting to transition from Disadvantaged -> Neutral a bit too much
• KDB never grabs while grab is ESAM's 5th highest offensive input
• KDB only uses 3 of the 5 air options Yoshi has (mostly just Fair and Nair) while ESAM uses all 5 of Pikachu's air options (though mostly Uair and Fair)
• KDB uses Jab as an option fairly often, while ESAM uses a combination of Utilt and Dtilt instead
• KDB's kill (and his very close kill attempt) were sub-100% on Sheik, while ESAM's kills both started over 120%
• KDB's deaths were at lower percentages than ESAM's death, but still began over 120%

To me, looking at this, I really feel Yoshi and Pikachu are very similar. Both of these players also seem extremely talented on paper and exhibit the kind of play you should expect to see at a high level. The only glaring differences, to me, are:

• KDB's slightly sloppier and more linear play when compared to ESAM
• Yoshi's complete lack of a grab option
• Yoshi's ability to kill far earlier than Pikachu
• Yoshi's lack of "viable" options (8 of 18 were completely unused by KDB - more on this below) compared to Pikachu (3 of 18 unused by ESAM)

We complain a lot about our lack of a grab, but we may not even need it. Compared to a character like Pikachu, we dish out way more damage in the average string. We also, arguably, have a better way to fish for these strings (better control on our projectile, retreating Fair, quick command-grab) to make up for our grab. On top of that, we have a lot more options to kill early.

I think Yoshi mains, in general, need to work on their ground game. Raptor came to the same conclusion after my post ~2 months ago in the video thread. KDB, as an example, simply doesn't use Dtilt, Ftilt, or Utilt as options, despite them being very good. Utilt -> Utilt -> Uair is a thing and tacks on more damage than Pikachu's equivalent Grab -> Uair -> Uair/Fair. It's just harder to set up because the initial Utilt isn't as guaranteed as a grab.

Ultimately, the conclusion I've come to as an aspiring player is that Yoshi is "high tier" material, but very difficult to play optimally. Many of our less-used options are very punishable compared to Pikachu, which is why they aren't used (Bair, Dair). We also have a completely worthless move (Fspec) that nullifies an available option. This is the linearity that Dabuz is talking about. We need to be able to throw out some of these moves as mix-ups to catch our opponent, but not get #rekt doing it.

Hopefully this analysis pushes some of you in the right direction. I want to see a goddamn Yoshi top-16 a major!I'm going to define "high tier" character as one having recent top results at a major tournament. Based on this definition, Pikachu is "high tier" literally just because of ESAM. No one else (that I'm aware of) plays that character anywhere close to such a high level.

Let's assume that Yoshi and Pikachu are roughly equivalent in that they can both be "high tier" if played by a suitably good player. How is ESAM using Pikachu's potential to its fullest and why aren't Yoshi players doing the same?

So, here's ESAM taking a game off of ZeRo with Pikachu at CEO 2015 (one of the few to do so): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-jljs8psXk&t=7m45s. Because it's ZeRo losing, no one can refute this is an important game to look at. During the game, ESAM used:

Uspec 16
Fspec 1
Nspec 31
Dspec 4
Uair 22
Fair 14
Nair 9
Bair 6
Dair 8
Utilt 5
Ftilt 0
Jab 0
Dtilt 4
DashA 1
Usmash 0
Fsmash 2
Dsmash 1
Grab 12
Shield 18
Roll 6
Dodge 8

Kill 1: (Sheik @ 124%) Roll -> Dash -> Grab -> Dthrow -> Jump -> Dspec (Sheik @ 158%)
Death 1: (Pikachu @ 176%) Shield Drop -> Fair (Pikachu @ 182%)
Kill 2: (Sheik @ 121%) Roll -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Jump -> Dspec (Sheik @ 148%)

As a Yoshi case-study, let's look at KDB's play. He was the highest-placing Yoshi at CEO 2015 (top-32) and was sent to the loser's bracket by none other than ZeRo himself. Here's a very close game between him and Phuzix (top-24 Sheik at CEO 2015) from last month: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29y4n97aOCo&t=2m45s. During the game, KDB used:

Uspec 23
Fspec 0
Nspec 2
Dspec 2
Uair 4
Fair 21
Nair 23
Bair 0
Dair 0
Utilt 0
Ftilt 0
Jab 13
Dtilt 0
DashA 0
Usmash 1
Fsmash 1
Dsmash 0
Grab 1
Shield 17
Roll 1
Dodge 20

Kill 1: (Sheik @ 61%) Jab -> Jab -> Jump -> Fair (Spike) -> Fsmash (Sheik @ 96%)
Death 1: (Yoshi @ 121%) Grab -> Pummel -> Uthrow -> Jump -> Uair (Yoshi @ 137%)
Almost Kill 2: (Sheik @ 91%) Roll -> Jab -> USmash (Shielded, Sheik @ 93%)
Death 2: (Yoshi @ 136%) Grab -> Pummel -> Fthrow -> Jump -> Fair (Yoshi @ 150%)

Watching both games, there are some similarities:

• Both players use defensive options very well (For Glory scrubs like me roll all over the place, ruining our options)
• Both players ONLY use smash attacks when they've read an opportunity for a kill
• Both players essentially never use dash attacks
• Both players rely heavily on projectiles for spacing when transitioning from Disadvantaged -> Neutral (Nspec for Pikachu, Uspec for Yoshi)
• Both players rely heavily on quick aerial moves for setting up strings (Uair and Nair for Pikachu, Nair for Yoshi)

There are, however, some very glaring differences:

• KDB spams air dodges while attempting to transition from Disadvantaged -> Neutral a bit too much
• KDB never grabs while grab is ESAM's 5th highest offensive input
• KDB only uses 3 of the 5 air options Yoshi has (mostly just Fair and Nair) while ESAM uses all 5 of Pikachu's air options (though mostly Uair and Fair)
• KDB uses Jab as an option fairly often, while ESAM uses a combination of Utilt and Dtilt instead
• KDB's kill (and his very close kill attempt) were sub-100% on Sheik, while ESAM's kills both started over 120%
• KDB's deaths were at lower percentages than ESAM's death, but still began over 120%

To me, looking at this, I really feel Yoshi and Pikachu are very similar. Both of these players also seem extremely talented on paper and exhibit the kind of play you should expect to see at a high level. The only glaring differences, to me, are:

• KDB's slightly sloppier and more linear play when compared to ESAM
• Yoshi's complete lack of a grab option
• Yoshi's ability to kill far earlier than Pikachu
• Yoshi's lack of "viable" options (8 of 18 were completely unused by KDB - more on this below) compared to Pikachu (3 of 18 unused by ESAM)

We complain a lot about our lack of a grab, but we may not even need it. Compared to a character like Pikachu, we dish out way more damage in the average string. We also, arguably, have a better way to fish for these strings (better control on our projectile, retreating Fair, quick command-grab) to make up for our grab. On top of that, we have a lot more options to kill early.

I think Yoshi mains, in general, need to work on their ground game. Raptor came to the same conclusion after my post ~2 months ago in the video thread. KDB, as an example, simply doesn't use Dtilt, Ftilt, or Utilt as options, despite them being very good. Utilt -> Utilt -> Uair is a thing and tacks on more damage than Pikachu's equivalent Grab -> Uair -> Uair/Fair. It's just harder to set up because the initial Utilt isn't as guaranteed as a grab.

Ultimately, the conclusion I've come to as an aspiring player is that Yoshi is "high tier" material, but very difficult to play optimally. Many of our less-used options are very punishable compared to Pikachu, which is why they aren't used (Bair, Dair). We also have a completely worthless move (Fspec) that nullifies an available option. This is the linearity that Dabuz is talking about. We need to be able to throw out some of these moves as mix-ups to catch our opponent, but not get #rekt doing it.

Hopefully this analysis pushes some of you in the right direction. I want to see a goddamn Yoshi top-16 a major!

I just wanna reiterate my first post. I actually agree with all the points you made about Yoshis weaknesses but I don't think its enough to make him a mid tier character. I don't think he should be anywhere under 15th (I currently have him as 9th/10th). I guess it really depends what you consider high tier. To me 15th is still high.

I'm very back and forth with Yoshi's future (assuming all characters stay relatively the same). Sometimes I feel like he'll drop severely once people start to really figure him out but as of lately I've been feeling like he has the potential to rise as a solid top 8 character. That probably makes no sense but the reason I think this is because it's really starting to seem like Yoshi is just a difficult character to use as precisely as he needs to be at all times, especially in a game where the rest of the cast is relatively easy to use. If that's the case, with time, he'll be a solid top 8 character. The improved pressure/conversion and kill game would be enough to put him up there imo (and you have to admit these are all things we need to work on). I guess an easier way to explain it would be to say that he has a higher skill cap then most characters and it's not something we've reached this early in the metagame yet. Pressure and conversion are the biggest things. There's so much going on into doing both properly and as a character that can do it so well, there's definitely unexplored areas that have yet to be reached.

Also, Yoshi by no means has a linear recovery and can land just fine. Use all your tools!!

My takeaway is that Yoshi players actually have a fairly similar thought process to what I've been thinking. That this is a character with top 10 potential that isn't fully being harnessed. That Yoshi players can work on various aspects of their game and get better. I don't really understand the pessimism.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Like if Wario's Waft killed later but could combo easy out of a throw I'd be fine with that because he'd have a good setup into a good kill move

This would be broken.

I love it!

 

[SpottedCerberus]

OR..... we can have other characters buffed. Shiek may be the best character in the game atm, but why stale the meta game by limiting what she can do and instead, increase the range of possibilities and options for other characters. I would want to see more Shulk/Link/Marth/Ike treatments across the board instead of Shiek getting nerfed. Starting with .

Edit: Can someone give me an explanation why is getting consistent results? He isn't top 10, isn't getting alot of results, AND BRINGS THE HYPE (shout outs to Fatality bringing the hype during top 8 @ SmashCon.

1. Nerf one character
2. Buff 54 others

Which option sounds more practical to you? I agree with the sentiment, but it's not that easy.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't wanna get into it cause it's boring at this point.

Yoshi can easily go toe-to-toe with characters like Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Fox, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Luigi, and Mario.

No, No, Maybe Fox mains used to think it was +3 for Yoshi lol they're weird, No, Maybe?, Luigi no idea we camp him with eggs I guess but Luigi laughs at us if he ever gets in, maybe even or Mario favor.

I think you've been skewing the opinion that these boards have about Yoshi quite a bit (underrating the character). I went to take a look at the Yoshi boards to see if I was crazy or something. Then I come across this thread. There I see posts like these:

If you honestly think it's just me, you're cute and I wanna take you home and pinch your cheeks.
Two opinions does not = the entire Yoshi community.
What Raptor goes on about is silly too, "with time he'll be good" How much time? Next month is a year into the game, do we need 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?

 

[Blobface]

@ Sinister Slush
Can Yoshi land a Footstool out of Jab1? It seems like he should be able to but I don't actually know.

 

[Illuminose]

yep, you're just being pessimistic. If you actually think that Yoshi can't deal with those characters then you're not trying hard enough.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Man you're just becoming more and more qyooot, I wanna feed you baby food and put a little bib on you now.

Can Yoshi land a Footstool out of Jab1? It seems like he should be able to but I don't actually know.

Not entirely sure myself, only thing we tried toying with footstool is stuff we researched in the brawl days, but at that point if we're close enough to footstool and get a confirmed nair out of it, why not just nair in the first place was our initial thought.

 

[HFlash]

yep, you're just being pessimistic. If you actually think that Yoshi can't deal with those characters then you're not trying hard enough.

Saying that to the guy who is the obvious Yoshi expert, with literally OVER 9000 posts, says you are in fact not trying hard enough. I guess Sinister shouldn't talk until he has AT LEAST 30,000 posts, puts in 100 hours of Yoshi work per week, and uses black magic to become a lizard in order to "be one with the Yoshi." It's ok to disagree, but instead of calling people out with no substance, maybe you could educate us on how Yoshi can handle say Shiek. Let's not turn this into Reddit (unless... gasp* it's too late).

Edit: Caution, hyperbole used in this post in case you take things too literally.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't think my post count should be an indication of anything lol
Anyways, here's this in the exact thread that guy used for his example too, I forgot dabunz posted in there.

Yoshi not being high tier is even simpler than that, he's a bag of tools but none of them flow well with each other, leaving him as a very linear character. Combine that with a heavy reliance on jumping around and poor footsies and well...you get Yoshi.

 

[HFlash]

It means that you have put alot more time and effort into the theory crafting of the game, deserving a bit better of a response than "try harder." But w.e, the interwebs will be the interwebs.

 

[Illuminose]

I actually did make a post about Yoshi vs Sheik.

On Yoshi vs Sheik: I'm very surprised that Yoshis seem to think this is a bad matchup for Yoshi. It's closer to even, 55:45 Sheik's favor at max. Yoshi has the tools to deal with Sheik effectively. Probably the most significant thing is that Yoshi is comparably lagless and has really good options to escape disadvantage (super armor double jump and frame 3 nair). Sheik doesn't really get anything for free here. You'd be surprised how much stuff Sheik does that isn't actually guaranteed but that is more of a bait or option select to extend strings (as in they can't really escape or Sheik creates the illusion that they can't escape). The big thing is that, if it's not guaranteed, Yoshi is out of there and that's a big deal. Eggs force dash to shield. You can powershield, granted, but the big thing is that Sheik can't really sit in shield. Yoshi will drop a dair on your shield, egg lay, or just space away to his heart's content. Needles are extremely overrated in this matchup. Yoshi can make it annoying for Sheik to even charge needles by pestering with eggs. Yoshi is also a character with great aerial mobility and great options to stay mobile in the air, which means Yoshi can actually play around needles or at least make it tricky for Sheik to a certain extent. The big thing is that if the Sheik messes up or mistimes needles (or is baited into tossing out needles), she gets hit by a well-placed egg. In this regard, Sheik has to be careful. Yoshi is hard for Sheik to kill, too -- he's heavy and has some pretty scary punishes that can and will kill you. Yoshi is much better at trapping Sheik in disadvantage than Sheik is at juggling Yoshi. If you can pick up on their bouncing fish escape patterns, you can actually punish their trajectory or even catch it with a dj up air if you're really good. Yoshi has multiple options to shift around his momentum and land effectively. Sheik's vertical juggling also just isn't especially incredible; if you mess up you can even get down b'd which is super rough.

 

[Zelder]

So then where does the notion of Yoshi being a top ten threat come from? Is it simply inertia, his dash being unstoppable on FG, his unstoppable cuteness? What is it?

 

[Routa]

So then where does the notion of Yoshi being a top ten threat come from? Is it simply inertia, his dash being unstoppable on FG, his unstoppable cuteness? What is it?

It is the eggroll. No one expects the eggroll.

 

[Sinister Slush]

So then where does the notion of Yoshi being a top ten threat come from? Is it simply inertia, his dash being unstoppable on FG, his unstoppable cuteness? What is it?

That's the same question I wonder. I honestly 100% think the whole "Yoshi is broken" thing came from for glory kids being unable to win against Yoshi, him getting a nerf in the first Wii U patch I believe along with Little mac and Greninja proves that even more and it's stuck around about as much as that "better nerf greninja" meme.

 

[HFlash]

1. Nerf one character
2. Buff 54 others

Which option sounds more practical to you? I agree with the sentiment, but it's not that easy.

Yes, but in a perfect world, Mii Gunner and Zelda can be seen at a grand finals of a national, chocolate ice cream didn't make you fat, you could get a job with an English degree, there was no lag in For Glory, the separate Smash communities didn't hate on each other, and so on. It's not practical, but it's doable and it really does feel with each patch (having more buffs than nerfs), SM4SH is getting closer and closer to that ideal state. Nothing wrong with advocating more of the same.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

"Don't nerf the high tiers! Buff the low tiers!"
Yeah. Because if Samus is top tier nobody will complain right?
Smh.

 

[Smog Frog]

what characters do you all feel should get the treatment, in descending order?

 

[Zelder]

Purely anecdotal, but the first player I ever got bodied by on FG was a Japanese Yoshi player who dominated me physically and spiritually. So I've always combined that (one off) event with all the talk of Yoshi being high tier, and just thought "Huh, I guess Yoshi is high tier, even though he doesn't really have any tournament representation."

Maybe...maybe we're all just carrying psychic scars from devastating Yoshi losses.

 

[Kofu]

Not trying to really compare the characters, but Yoshi's frame data reminds me of Game & Watch's a little bit. They both have a few quick attacks but for the most part their attacks have average to slow startup but relatively low ending lag. Yoshi being heavier and possessing a generally better projectile help him a lot too.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Not trying to really compare the characters, but Yoshi's frame data reminds me of Game & Watch's a little bit. They both have a few quick attacks but for the most part their attacks have average to slow startup but relatively low ending lag. Yoshi being heavier and possessing a generally better projectile help him a lot too.

Funny enough, I compared GnW to Yoshi by how in Brawl D3 and GnW were like top 5 early on in the games life, then they dropped to high/mid tier.

Luigi being D3 and Yoshi being GnW in Smash 4 in terms of how their supposed tier placements for everyone will drop at least. It's kinda funny you brought up GnW.

 

[Mr. Johan]

We were doing Top 10s?





I remain wholly convinced that an optimal Wario is flat out disgusting as he currently is. Bikes that respawn in a quarter of a second, Chomp to beat Shields, dsvnjbvsbdk air speed, a wonderful Bair, and a KO move at 40 that all previous characteristics combined will give Wario what he wants easily. People will see the light eventually.

 

[Smog Frog]

.........
above ? this demands explanation.


i just realized that is absent. is there an explanation for this?

 

[Ikes]

.........
above ? this demands explanation.

Luigi above mario makes sense

the rest i agree with you though