Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

utilt, fsmash, dthrow, bair, uair all need some sort of buff and/or blindspot fixing.

 

[Tainic]

Yeah the only real drawback of his aerials (And the ones of the other plumbers.) are their range, even though that Fair is deceptively long ranged.

To answer you it seems to me that they only buff the strong fighters' weakest moves atm, while doing more general buffs for the others, for example look at Ness' Dair Buff, Diddy D/Usmash Buffs, Yoshi Ledge Attack Buff, Sonic's Dair now having edgeguard capabilities, it seems to me that they consider them balanced and are just focusing on the last things in their moveset that need buffing so they could be considered balanced.

 

[-RedX-]

Ganon's Utilt should have the ability to cancel it with shield, have the freedom to reverse it upon release, or reduce the startup significantly while toning the damage/knockback/shield damage to compensate for better startup.
I would love the last option tbh.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Ganon's Utilt should have the ability to cancel it with shield, have the freedom to reverse it upon release, or reduce the startup significantly while toning the damage/knockback/shield damage to compensate for better startup.
I would love the last option tbh.

. . . so you want it to be an entirely different move?

 

[-RedX-]

. . . so you want it to be an entirely different move?

The last option is still the same move but just executes faster, it can still have 20+ frames of startup.
Ike's Dtilt in 3DS days is a completely different move from what it does now. I don't see this change being too radical.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The last option is still the same move but just executes faster, it can still have 20+ frames of startup.
Ike's Dtilt in 3DS days is a completely different move from what it does now. I don't see this change being too radical.

The whole point of Ganon's utilt is that it's complete disrespect. Changing it is like making Sonic slower because he's too fast, or making Bowser lighter because he's too heavy. It's not a change that will disrupt the balance of the game but it's something that I'd put in the category of "Unnecessary Changes."

 

[-RedX-]

Ganon can disrespect with the B button. *shrugs*

 

[apparently fuz]

The whole point of Ganon's utilt is that it's complete disrespect. Changing it is like making Sonic slower because he's too fast, or making Bowser lighter because he's too heavy. It's not a change that will disrupt the balance of the game but it's something that I'd put in the category of "Unnecessary Changes."

It would be unnecessary, yes, but would make him more viable.

 

[Tainic]

I obviously play Ganondorf to disrespect the person in front of me, that is why I don't want him to be a viable character.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ganon can disrespect with the B button. *shrugs*

That gives him armour in the right circumstances.

 

[Vipermoon]

Ganon's Utilt should have the ability to cancel it with shield, have the freedom to reverse it upon release, or reduce the startup significantly while toning the damage/knockback/shield damage to compensate for better startup.
I would love the last option tbh.

Definitely not the other changes but the last one is good. The player should be able to decide when to release the leg. Go for max power or sacrifice power for speed. This way you can't just stand there and counter his leg it when you know it's coming down.

 

[Mario766]

If Sakurai was changing really weak moves, Ike would have gotten a buff to down air, not up air.

Down Air got considerably nerfed from Brawl with zero compensation.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'd like to see Samus's jab usmash and utilt buffed.
I'd like to see d3's gordos get buffed.
Zelda needs almost an entire moveset overhaul. Jab grab uair dair bair fair utilt ftilt usmash fsmash all need to be buffed IMO. hell dtilt probably should be buffed. Din's fire needs to be buffed same with down b. Mobility needs to be buffed also God this character sucks.

 

[apparently fuz]

I'd like to see Samus's jab usmash and utilt buffed.

Let's be honest, Samus needs a buff on everything to be quite frank.

 

[PUK]

I'd like to see Samus's jab usmash and utilt buffed.
I'd like to see d3's gordos get buffed.
Zelda needs almost an entire moveset overhaul. Jab grab uair dair bair fair utilt ftilt usmash fsmash all need to be buffed IMO. hell dtilt probably should be buffed. Din's fire needs to be buffed same with down b. Mobility needs to be buffed also God this character sucks.

Most of these buff would be unnecessary unless really tiny. Usmash is fine right now except for range but even that is ok. Same with jab. Utilt combo into every aerial, itself, usamash, faraore wind etc... What buff could be ok?
Ftilt is garbage but what should be buff in him? Dair is possibly one of the best of the game, fsmash is ok. Only buff i would love is reduced iasa on dtilt, to make it a combo move which actually combo into important stuff.
Yeah every zelda move could have a buff, but with only three of her move (dtilt, ftilt and nair) buffed you could make her jump in the top 20.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Since we are discussing buffs and nerfs, I think....
-Falco's U-Smash needs less endlag, Dash Attack needs less startup, and his Up B should also kill significantly earlier.
-Ganon's jab needs to deal less damage, but come out much quicker, his Fair should have less landing lag, and his Up B should kill significantly earlier.
-Mewtwo's Up Throw, Down Throw, Up Air, and Back Air should have less endlag.
-Lucas's grab should have more range.
-Dr. Mario's Up B should cover more distance.
-Sheik's needles need increased endlag, Fair should have less range, and F-Smash should connect better.
-Diddy Kong's Up Air should deal more damage.

 

[apparently fuz]

Since we are discussing buffs and nerfs, I think....
-Falco's U-Smash needs less endlag, Dash Attack needs less startup, and his Up B should also kill significantly earlier.

What Falco needs first is usable lasers. And why would you want to make his up-b into a kill move? I'm all in for altering it from just being a straight up worse version of Fox's counterpart, maybe it coming out quicker? It's not like Falco has that much of an issue with killing.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Since we are discussing buffs and nerfs,

Could we not? I get sucked into these conversations too, but they really are pointless.

Edit: We should really have a thread dedicated to hypothetical nerfs and buffs, so that it doesn't clog up the discussion here.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Most of these buff would be unnecessary unless really tiny. Usmash is fine right now except for range but even that is ok. Same with jab. Utilt combo into every aerial, itself, usamash, faraore wind etc... What buff could be ok?
Ftilt is garbage but what should be buff in him? Dair is possibly one of the best of the game, fsmash is ok. Only buff i would love is reduced iasa on dtilt, to make it a combo move which actually combo into important stuff.
Yeah every zelda move could have a buff, but with only three of her move (dtilt, ftilt and nair) buffed you could make her jump in the top 20.

Zelda wouldn't jump into the top 20 because of buffs on those moves. That's the type of change I had in mind for dtilt. Also her jab is straight garbage. That's so ridiculous they keep her such a crappy jab and grab. Think of this Olimar and Zelda have the same speed on their standing grab...let that sink in. She has the sliwest jab in the game. Yeah that needs to be changed

 

[Blobface]

If Sakurai was changing really weak moves, Ike would have gotten a buff to down air, not up air.

Down Air got considerably nerfed from Brawl with zero compensation.

For the record, strong Meteors/spikes in general were nerfed from Brawl to S4.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

A general rule of thumb is:
THOUGHTLESS BALANCE SUGGESTIONS is punishable by DEATH.

Death, guys. DEATH.

 

[TriTails]

Ike doesn't really need more buffs. He's already frickin' strong enough (Who the hell cares about spikes if you can KO people with a gigantrous F-air) for a heavy with speed.

(His air friction is seriously horrible tho...)

 

[Mario766]

For the record, strong Meteors/spikes in general were nerfed from Brawl to S4.

Not what I was referring to.

In brawl, Ike's down air lasted 14 frames and FAF was 55.

In Smash 4, Ike's down air lasts 2 frames and FAF...still at 55.

That's TWELVE frames where Ike is sitting there in animation with no hitbox. I can take the hitbox changing to the tip, I can't take the downright nerf of the lingering hitbox.

 

[san.]

If Ness can get buffs on his dair, Ike should be able to, too. Though I think Ike's dair is alright outside of its aerial FAF. It's still better than quite a few other dairs due to its sheer reach and landing lag alone. I think his smashes need buffs by removing sourspots on usmash/fsmash and giving dsmash more active frames/making it quicker, but that's not happening because of casuals.

 

[Deathcarter]

Since we are discussing buffs and nerfs, I think....
-Sheik's needles need increased endlag,

No, they're laggy enough as it is and more endlag would ruin her confirms with aerial needles. Just give them zero knockback growth so that uncharged needles aren't beyond ludicrous in neutral.

 

[Man Li Gi]

If Ness can get buffs on his dair, Ike should be able to, too. Though I think Ike's dair is alright outside of its aerial FAF. It's still better than quite a few other dairs due to its sheer reach and landing lag alone. I think his smashes need buffs by removing sourspots on usmash/fsmash and giving dsmash more active frames/making it quicker, but that's not happening because of casuals.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how there's a sour spot on Ike's tip of the blade for Fsmash. You don't know how many times I actually got the move to land in hopes of a disrespectful KO, only to back fire due to the source spit sucking so hard. Usmash sour spot is just....sad when you bait an unsafe landing only to release it a tad early and get rewarded by hitting only the weak hit that never kills.

No, they're laggy enough as it is

Mmmmmmmmmmmmk..........we are talking about right?

 

[san.]

For the life of me, I cannot understand how there's a sour spot on Ike's tip of the blade for Fsmash. You don't know how many times I actually got the move to land in hopes of a disrespectful KO, only to back fire due to the source spit sucking so hard. Usmash sour spot is just....sad when you bait an unsafe landing only to release it a tad early and get rewarded by hitting only the weak hit that never kills.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmk..........we are talking about right?

Yeah, they'd be just fine if it was always 22-23% for fsmash and 17-19 for usmash. I also forgot to mention that dsmash may also be balanced if it receives hitbox enlargements. If it can hit slightly farther below the stage, that would be great, and fits the spirit of the move.

 

[C0rvus]

Of course meteors and spikes got nerfed from Brawl. There is no meteor cancelling in this game. Everyone would be Melee Falco with their old down airs. I don't want to play that game.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Of course meteors and spikes got nerfed from Brawl. There is no meteor cancelling in this game. Everyone would be Melee Falco with their old down airs. I don't want to play that game.

I would. Would keep players from scraping off every % for kills and would prevent timeouts from being a issue.
Also, I find it baffling that people think capt. falcon isn't solo-main viable. He has no counters. Just disadvantage MUs.

 

[Luco]

Ness has trouble with bowser.

Stop saying that lol, the "Bowser is good against Ness" thing has about the same credibility as the "Kirby beats Sheik" thing. They're both heavily over-exaggerated. Bowser does do okay against Ness, might be one of his best top tier MUs but Ness doesn't really have "trouble with him" in the way you're describing - funnily enough the MU has even happened at top level, where NR switched to Bowser as a last resort when he realised ZSS wasn't working - and it failed.

You've gotta stop falling for the "our character does so well against Ness" statement, please understand our character gets under-rated in MUs harder than mid-patch Greninja - "Dude if you just avoid the grab, PK Fire, PKT juggles and all his killing aerials you'll be just fine! >:D " "Yeah we gimp Ness so hard. Also don't get gimped by him and you're all good. +1." (they'll learn the cold hard truth sooner or later~)

And @Gheb_01 that might help answer your question, but Ness mains (and I think more than a couple ZSS mains have said it too) believe we win the MU.

 

[Nobie]

I would. Would keep players from scraping off every % for kills and would prevent timeouts from being a issue.
Also, I find it baffling that people think capt. falcon isn't solo-main viable. He has no counters. Just disadvantage MUs.

There's this gradual process through this thread and the last where the idea of "4:6" goes from meaning "perfectly manageable" to "nigh-unclimbable mountain."

It's like how people say X wins against Y, and then people think that literally means "wins" instead of "has a better chance of winning when comparing tools and properties."

Also thanks to reading this thread I became aware of the flaw of Yoshi's fair, and now it's soooo fun to punish it (especially as Mewtwo).

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Just gonna correct something, @ Luco . "Kirby beats Sheik" was never said by anybody, or at least anybody who knows what they're talking about. The only people who think this are the Kirby mains who only play For Glory (basically everyone except like, 7 Kirbys). Pretty much all top Kirby players think Kirby goes even with Sheik with the buffs he got recently. It was generally conceived to be 55:45 pre-patch in Sheik's favor.

Well, at least when customs are on. Kirby's too exploitable when they're off.

 

[C0rvus]

Why do people think Bowser does well against Ness? Sure he can do his usual frame traps and such, and ends stocks in few opportunities, but Ness gets to do his usual stuff, which is far stronger. PK Thunder juggles suck super hard for Bowser, who already has trouble landing to begin with. I knew a Bowser main who decided to pick up a secondary to deal with Ness. (I beleive he initially picked up Lucina, but that has since changed). His friend/training partner was a Ness main, so it wasn't lack of experience, in fact it was the opposite. Ness is way too safe for Bowser to be more of a worry than usual.

 

[Ffamran]

Since we are discussing buffs and nerfs, I think....
-Falco's U-Smash needs less endlag, Dash Attack needs less startup, and his Up B should also kill significantly earlier.

Yes, Falco who acts 6 frames faster than Fox should have reduced end lag on his Up Smash; Fox's Up Smash FAF is 56 while Falco's is 50. Yes, the character whose Up Smash has 14 active frames and does a total and constant, albeit sometimes not consistent 16% should have reduced end lag on his Up Smash. Fox's Up Smash only 4 active frames and does 16%, 14%, or 11%. Fox takes a lot of risk, but gets a ton of reward for using his Up Smash, so that's why there's sour-spots on his Up Smash and him not being able to act until frame 56. Do you know how abusive Falco's Up Smash would be if he could act at frame 45? That was his Brawl's Up Smash's FAF which used to do one single hit with a 10% clean hit and 9% late hit and lasted 10 frames, frames 8-17. From Brawl to Smash 4, Falco traded 5 frames of end lag for an addition of 6% and 4 active frames.

This isn't directed at you or anyone and I know I'm sounding venomous, but it's just annoying when people say Falco has laggy moves. The freaking bird hasn't changed that much from Brawl or even Melee. Significant changes from those games would be the inclusion of a rapid jab finisher, Up Smash being a two-hit move with a different animation, and Dair gaining 11 frames of startup. That's it. Even Bair wasn't changed much more so it sacrificed its defensive properties, the front hit and lingering frames, for pure offense. Blaster? That's the same end lag from Melee and Brawl. People just never experienced it because there was no reason when you could auto-cancel it. Blaster didn't magically get 60 frames of end lag added onto it. Pretty much everything else outside of rapid jab finisher, Up Smash, Bair, Dair, and his throws had slight changes which were either just number changes like dash attack and grab gaining more startup or Fair being reworked along with the game's mechanics so it's an actually useful move like pretty much all multi-hit moves. Patches just sped Uair and Fair up along with changing properties like Uair's hitboxes or Nair's hit angles being autolink. That's it. Falco didn't suddenly become a lightweight with heavyweight end lag.

I probably missed it and it's because I don't know the "call" for partial invincibility and intangibility, but if it's not there, Falco having partial invincibility on his Up Smash would be great. It's probably already there considering it's basically Charlie's Somersault Shell which like Guile's Flash Kick, are good anti-airs. With the amount of active frames and quick startup, Falco's Up Smash is great for anti-airing. With partial invincibility, it would be even better. Oh, but it'd be OP like Mario's Up Smash. No, no it wouldn't. Falco has to commit heavily compared to Mario; Falco acts 10 frames later than Mario.

A "simple", but numerical change would be his jab. In Brawl, he could act out of jab 1 at frame 16, the same as Fox's... pre-patch, right? I'll need to check, but I think 1 or 2 frames were added to his jab 1 now. For jab 2, Falco could act at frame 20. In the transition from Brawl to Smash 4, 5 frames were added to each. Yeah... Do the math, include the fact that his fastest move on the ground outside of jab is frame 5 and that's a move with a hitbox centered around his body, but if we include Specials, then there's Reflector, but if you miss or hit a shield, have fun being around -39 on shield. Oh, but Falco would be able to jab lock people... No he wouldn't. Falco pushes you forward and you can DI away from him; it's basically what Fox's jab is doing right now. At the very least, 3 frames shaved off would help since Link's jab 1 used to be able to act at frame 17? and Samus at frame 18. Samus's jab would actually be good if the knockback wasn't so bad that you hit at low percents and you're kind of screwed. If they want to keep that knockback, lower the end lag so she can actually run or choose another option like Ftilt or Dtilt. Falco's boxing game is considered good, but there are characters who ruin the fact he can't transition to rapid jab properly - the game doesn't even register it as a true combo - and choosing to jab mixup doesn't work on most characters if they know what's happening since most characters have quick enough options to just bulldoze through.

Then there's the Blaster issue... And that's it. Even with a slow standing grab, his dash and pivot grabs are the same as Fox's. Dash attack shouldn't be abused or abusive... Reduce his startup by 2 and increase Fox's by 2 or 1 and there you go, Falco's dash attack is "better" while Fox's is less abusive. Still, do Fox and Falco really need that? The major thing holding Falco back is his inability or poor zoning game relative to other zoners in the game. Falco pretty much has access to everything in the game: throw combos, kill throws, numerous kill options that are also his combo options, setups off of practically any of his moves, good spacing and footsies, decent jab mixups, and good edgeguarding. Sure, some of his stuff aren't reliable like his kill throws and throw combos, but that's the beauty of it. You work for those kills and you don't actually have access to guaranteed combos. Everyone has their bread and butter and yes, guarantees are safe, but when you can freestyle whenever, then you are never predictable. Falco will kill you with Bair, Uair, Side Smash, Dtilt, U-throw, Falco Phantasm, Dair, Fair, Down Smash, Utilt, whatever. You're never at a point where you have limited options with Falco; after the percent when Bair and Side Smash kills is when everything Falco has becomes a kill option and that's like a difference of 20% to 30% from around 110% at center stage. And then there's his gimp options... When I said Falco is one of the best-worst characters along with Dr. Mario and Kirby, I mean it.

Oh, and as for Fire Bird... Yeah... If and when Wolf comes back, Fire Bird is just there. Oh, but Fire Wolf doesn't have a hitbox while charging. Yeah, but Fire Wolf launches like 20 frames faster than Fire Bird and Fire Fox... Thunder Bird, please... Hell, just keep the same properties and even sound effects, but make it electrical. At least it'll look different.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Just gonna correct something, @ Luco . "Kirby beats Sheik" was never said by anybody, or at least anybody who knows what they're talking about. The only people who think this are the Kirby mains who only play For Glory (basically everyone except like, 7 Kirbys). Pretty much all top Kirby players think Kirby goes even with Sheik with the buffs he got recently. It was generally conceived to be 55:45 pre-patch in Sheik's favor.

Well, at least when customs are on. Kirby's too exploitable when they're off.

Yeah, most people think it's even.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

It would be unnecessary, yes, but would make him more viable.

Since when does Ganon need to be more viable? You just proved my point.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Yeah, most people think it's even.

why did you make a one liner post just to say this lol

Anyways, against Sheik, MikeKirby's full combo with customs off can be performed from F-Throw and does 72%, so even without customs, Kirby can combo her really easily. Customs off Kirby has some significant flaws that she can abuse, though, so he loses it when they aren't available.

In customs on, Kirby can kill Sheik at 80% with DI (but no rage) through U-Tilt Sourspot > U-Air > Upper Cutter, which means landing a D-Air after the full combo takes the stock.

 

[Wintermelon43]

why did you make a one liner post just to say this lol

Anyways, against Sheik, MikeKirby's full combo with customs off can be performed from F-Throw and does 72%, so even without customs, Kirby can combo her really easily. Customs off Kirby has some significant flaws that she can abuse, though, so he loses it when they aren't available.

I have no idea why I posted that.

Why am I posting THIS either?

 

[Ikes]

I said bowser beats ness, I never said handily

Ness just has a much harder time landing his b&b combos on Bowser due to a lack of viable setups
I don't think it's anything beyond 55:45 Bowser and it's probably even most of the time, but with Ness being lightweight and Bowser having pretty handy KO power as a heavy and decent mobility for a heavy isn't too bad for him.

Kirby goes even with sheik though, I never thought it was Kirby's favor but it's notable when talking about Kirby

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Why does Ness need B&B combos against Bowser when literally everything else he does wrecks Bowser's face, though?