Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Vipermoon]

I loved that Uair to Utilt kill (reminds me of the Uair>Uair>Utilt kills I'd get away with in the 3DS/early Wii U days) and his Falcon Hug (up B) uses . Definitely the most creative Falcon.

 

[DanGR]

Oh damn I missed the Robin vs Marth final

anyone got a link for it?

Here ya go.
http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash/v/9852955?t=49m15s

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Nairo bringing out Robin was pretty cool. Everyone, but Ike was there... Thanks a lot, FE crew. Ike fights for his friends and you abandon him.

Hmm, False has a Sheik, Luigi, Peach, and Marth now while Nairo still has his usual ZSS, Robin, Zelda, and Lucina. Didn't see much, but considering Marth's ground speed, Elthunder probably isn't that useful against him, right? Also, every time I see Keitaro go against Nairo, it makes me sad because Nairo literally stomps Keitaro's Falco with Zelda. ;_;

Wait, when, what stream? Source please?
Got by only half an hour

 

[PK Gaming]

Here ya go.
http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash/v/9852955?t=49m15s

Good stuff, thanks.

It looks like that kill throw set up makes a big difference for Robin, but the % window to capitalize on it is pretty small.

 

[Tainic]

The kill window is actually pretty big, (Character dependant but I guess it's between 70 and 120%, so yeah that's rather huge.) and when out of it it's the same cheese as Marth/Sheik's dthrow : You bait an airdodge and punish. Also doesn't remove the fact that downthrow allows for a ****ton of followups and even Nosferatu lol.

unpopular characters like

Don't you dare calling my spirit animal unpopular.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Don't you dare calling my spirit animal unpopular.

But, but he is. I need him to remain unpopular and keep losing on FG and other things so we 5 DK mains (abadango said he was picking up DK) can keep riding the DK buff train.

 

[Zage]

So no, him getting nerfs definitely had reason. If there's only a small amount of people playing that character online and they're all doing the exact same thing with probably quite surprisingly high win rates (because the character doesn't have universal counter play on wifi), which I'm almost certain is the case, then you get pacman.

I'd argue that clarity is the most important thing when it comes to counter play, and I don't think any other character makes their weaknesses as obvious or suffers as much when you do outplay them like Pac-man. Catch his neutral B or using his down-b to your advantage are options that are immediately apparent when you're fighting against him. You can argue that its near impossible to do this wifi, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, but I digress. Balancing the game around what is/isn't possible on wifi is the worse possible route that competitive smash can go.

Meanwhile, characters like Shiek/Sonic or even Luigi don't have counter play isn't immediately obvious. Hell even prepatch it was bad to shield Luigi's fireballs because it could cost you a potential stock, and it took a pretty long while for people to learn that power shielding or taking the hit was their best options rather than blocking.

Yet none of these characters received nerfs that hit them as hard as Pac-man (More ending lag on up-smash, more start up on F-tilt. Really?) who isn't even seeing consistent results at nationals. I'm not counting EVO simply because Abadango opted for Wario/Rosalina in alot of MUs.

 

[Tainic]

But, but he is. I need him to remain unpopular and keep losing on FG and other things so we 5 DK mains (abadango said he was picking up DK) can keep riding the DK buff train.

Its so sad that kids prefer edgy characters such as le hyrulean adolescent swordsman and always forget that the king of the kongs is in the CSS as well a few places next to him.

 

[Ikes]

Its so sad that kids prefer edgy characters such as le hyrulean adolescent swordsman and always forget that the king of the kongs is in the CSS as well a few places next to him.

why anyone picks Dark Pit I will never understand

 

[Wintropy]

People play Dark Pit because Electroshock Arm is a really big deal. If you're the type that fishes for deep off-stage kills, Electroshock can just chase the other fellow and catch them with a kill clean off the blastzone. Plus it makes the Rosalina matchup that much easier. For a character like Pit, who struggles against Rosalina, that's massive.

Otherwise it's just down to personal preference. I know a lot of people prefer the stronger arrows and the off-stage setups Electroshock offers. Or it's just down to aesthetics. Small differences, substantial effect.

DK buffs make me a happy kitty. I feel like he's got decent setup / follow options now and can properly work with the moves he's got. I've heard that the Ding-Dong is actually a combination of his pre-patch cargo u-throw and u-air which have been tweaked so the two moves work together now. Verify?

 

[Tainic]

Idk man tbh I feel Dark Pit is only superior than Pit when it comes to the Rosa MU and maybe some Ness/Fox/Falco gimping shenanigans, having less flexible arrows seem like a really big deal to me and I can't really get over the fact that Bair is most of the time safer and as efficient as Electroshock.

 

[Wintropy]

Ehhhh there are instances where Pittoo is the favourable angel. I agree there's nothing quite as concrete as the Rosie MU (which I maintain is very important for us), but there are occasions when it's best to just get the opponent off-stage rather than into the air. With off-stage play in mind, you at least have the option to use it as an air-chase kill, whereas Upperdash just doesn't really have any use in that context.

It isn't the kind of thing you'd do much, but the option is there. I agree that the arrows are mostly inferior to Pit's, but hey, no accounting for taste~

EDIT: Come to think of it, fully-charged arrows can be used to nudge the opponent off the blastzone. Dark Pit's can do that more reliably. Situational, but it happens. I've caught a good few kills in that way.

 

[TriTails]

Electroshock Arm probably will do better if it sends people at semi-spike angle. At this current stage it's only pretty much worthy to pick in Rosa MU IMO.

DPit's arrows are also kinda skewed in which they only do 1% more than Pit but curve much much less. They need to make it so it curves better... or at least give it higher damage. Heck, they can go so far by doing it is stronger at close range and weaker at longer range, which what they did in Uprising. In that game, the dash and charge shots of Silver Bow go... pretty slow, but unlike any other bow, it is weaker the further it travels. I think giving it slower speed, better control, higher damage that decrease over distance will help DPit's clony-ness instead of being nearly straight up inferior.

...The arrow color don't even match. In Uprising it was green-ish.

Heck, they made his F-tilt inferior for no bloody reason. At least give it lower end lag!

They ramped up Lucina's damage so her attacks no longer do just 1% or 2% more than sour Marth. Sure. They buffed DPit's arrows damage in 1.1.0, but... it goes from like... 3.3% to like 3.7%? What the ****. Lucina got (near) straight 1% buff on F-tilt!

#Rant

 

[LightLV]

I think it's because Brawl's depletion rate was so insanely massive that it's skewing the perspective of shield strength a lot.

For perspective, In Smash 4, you lose about 8 points a second. In Melee, you lose 8.4 (light shield is less obviously). Brawl? 16.8 points a second. You literally only have 3 seconds of shield in SSBB.

That would have been a good thing to keep in this game, where shield might as well be renamed to parry

 

[Wintropy]

To be honest, the Arms are fairly niche tools in the first instance. Both have their uses in different contexts, but that's about the extent of it.

I definitely don't think Pittoo is universally better than Pit, but I don't think he's necessarily inferior, either. Unless you want exploit a certain niche (e.g. Dark Pit in the Rosalina matchup, Pit on stages with low ceilings), it's really just down to personal preference, since 90% of what this angel can do, that angel can do just as well.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Rosalina isn't a viable solo main. Too many poor matchups vs the top characters.

What are her bad matchups and why?

Also DK mains after the patch what do you think his best and worst matchups are and why?

 

[TriTails]

That would have been a good thing to keep in this game, where shield might as well be renamed to parry

Please no. Unless this 'parry' works like in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (No limits, no damage, just a little pushback), the shield change would screw over the likes of Luigi or Ganon. They answer camping with shields (Luigi with Fireballs too). Nerfing shields would drop them in the tier list where Luigi might as well end up in mid tier and Ganon at bottom. PS is there, but most players don't seem to be able to do them consistently in this game.

But wait... Ganon strikes your shield with a 24% F-smash/U-smash with awful shield health delpletion. How's that sound like?

To be honest, the Arms are fairly niche tools in the first instance. Both have their uses in different contexts, but that's about the extent of it.

I definitely don't think Pittoo is universally better than Pit, but I don't think he's necessarily inferior, either. Unless you want exploit a certain niche (e.g. Dark Pit in the Rosalina matchup, Pit on stages with low ceilings), it's really just down to personal preference, since 90% of what this angel can do, that angel can do just as well.

The Arms can be used like Raptor Boost. You run through people and when they soptdodge, quickly do an Arm attack backwards.

Speaking of Rosalina, am I the only one who finds Luma rapid jabbing at the ledge, Rosalina rapid jabbing at your roll distance, and you're at the ledge is a very very stupid thing?

I was like, 'Oh. I just smack Luma away'.

Took out Luigi U-air.

Got stuffed.

Took out Luigi N-air.

Got stuffed.

Took out LUIGI CYCLONE.

Got stuffed.

What the ****.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What are her bad matchups and why?

Also DK mains after the patch what do you think his best and worst matchups are and why?

Sheik mk pikachu zss

They all have superior mobility don't care about luma edge guard her super hard. They also kill her ridiculously early. She also has a bad MU vs marth. But I don't think it's as bad as the 4 listed above. Then there's Wario which maybe a bad mu for her. There's also falcon which is an even MU but ridiculously hard.

She struggles with characters that have superior mobility and have really easy ways to get rid of luma. Since she has no fast options ul close. It's hard to get them off of her. Then there's probably some other mu's where I think she struggles in but others don't (sonic and custom villager). Apparently custom wii fit is pretty tough on her also. Then there's still diddy kong. The mu may not be as bad as it once was saying uair doesn't kill at 80 anymore but I can see him giving her trouble.

Incidentally the 4 at the top all have moves to escape her juggle traps. They're also ridiculously hard characters to edgeguard. When you concede tange mobility edgeuarding and frame data to characters it's hard for me to say that MU is in your favor.

 

[warionumbah2]

Meta Knight is now abusive-tier (or was before, but now everyone knows). Buffs every patch result in this. I would say he needs 1% or so taken off of Shuttle Loop and the "abuse" will be noticeably less apparent (the 50/60% stocks off the top that are definitely easier/more consistent to get than ZSS by several magnitudes suddenly being 10-20% worse won't kill him).

Laaaaaaaate reply but..

How can you say this with a straight face when you main ZSS who can do everything MK can do but better? She's much more silly(which is normal for top tiers) and the patches aren't touching her at all.

1% nerf to shuttle loop would hamper his damage output which is already low enough. Damage buffs and nerfs aren't needed for MK, he needs sh fair and buffs for his CQC game but im leaning more towards sh fair. ZSS would still beat MK with these buffs, what MK does in the meta game means very little to you ZSS mains thats the cold harsh truth.

 

[Tainic]

Can't he SHBair though ?

 

[Amadeus9]

Can't he SHBair though ?

Nope.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Characters like Donkey Kong, Lucario and ROB were considered around top 10 at the start of Brawl. But they all dropped in light of generally poor match ups against top tiers; but with near unwinnable match ups against Dedede, who started off as third.

Which is an interesting thing to note because it makes a good argument about how the top/high tier characters don't need to be nerfed to oblivion to become more manageable. I think Duck Hunt is a prime example of this. The way things have gone for Duck Hunt are comparable to how they went to Brawl ROB. Both were found to be extremely annoying in the beginning and a lot of players bemoaned about not being able to get around their defensive tactics. Fast forward nearly a year and people came to discover that the characters weren't as deeply intricate as they once imagined. People learned the match up, figured out their weaknesses, and started to chip away at their effectiveness. With the patches in this game, this process has been speed up even more. In my opinion, some characters will likely just naturally get worse with time as people figure them out. For example, Luigi is already starting to show signs of this despite arguments being made mere months ago that he was top three and now a lot of people strongly doubt it anymore.

About Xanadu: Yes, Fatality's run was pretty awe inspiring. For Glory is full of Falcons who are either god awful or decent but horribly full of themselves so it's refreshing to see a genuinely solid Falcon player who wasn't a flash in the pan at a tournament. I guess it should come as no surprise that Falcon is a freakishly popular character (play for an hour and you're guarantee to run into at least one player who just plays Falcon) so it's a character I'm largely burned out playing against but I will admit that this week's Xanadu was genuinely exciting. If more Falcon players emerge like Fatality, I could easily see Falcon eventually become top 5.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Also DK mains after the patch what do you think his best and worst matchups are and why?

I'll speak on behalf of the 2 DK mains in this thread.......if that is OK with you @NachoOfCheese .....

In actuality, the DING DONG hasn't polarized MUs as most of the time, since you don't find yourself KOing with the move, but racking up quick percent (Maybe Pika tho, but haven't played any since patch). This makes it easier to play against FOX with who I say is DK's worst MU (if you wanna know why, look into this thread around page 44/45 and look at my post). The only times it KOs is when someone unwisely let's you go to Halberd, Delfino, stays at the top platform of T&C and Dreamland. Possibly, the only MU so drastically changed by it is the Roy MU which was arguably even/slight Roy advantage. Roy and CF get hit hardest with the DING DONG since they have high falling speed and weight. Unlike CF, Roy has basically one aerial, one linear approach, and must be picking DK's nose to get some knockback on his moves. I faced Roys before and after the patch to come to this conclusion.

DK buffs make me a happy kitty. I feel like he's got decent setup / follow options now and can properly work with the moves he's got. I've heard that the Ding-Dong is actually a combination of his pre-patch cargo u-throw and u-air which have been tweaked so the two moves work together now. Verify?

His uair wasn't touched. The cargo u throw had it's base knockback and scaling reduced allowing better followups. You could also use fair, but since it's so much slower, some people can AD before it comes out. If his uair was touched a LA buffed, well, no problem for me. I just wonder why the people I play are so salty though. DK didn't jump a tier with the buff and most DKs (I would imagine) start fishing for grabs more than ever (hence playing silly). They ain't mad when Ike has a woodchipper combo (u throw/dthrow to uair, which kills significantly earlier due to the high base knockback and great scaling) or dthrow/u throw to fair. As soon as DK gets one, it's the end of the world, kk. #logic. (BTW ain't mad for Ike having grab combos cuz I also use him).

 

[Shaya]

Laaaaaaaate reply but..

How can you say this with a straight face when you main ZSS who can do everything MK can do but better? She's much more silly(which is normal for top tiers) and the patches aren't touching her at all.

1% nerf to shuttle loop would hamper his damage output which is already low enough. Damage buffs and nerfs aren't needed for MK, he needs sh fair and buffs for his CQC game but im leaning more towards sh fair. ZSS would still beat MK with these buffs, what MK does in the meta game means very little to you ZSS mains thats the cold harsh truth.

You frequently come in with "with a straight face" quip although I'm like, always right in the end with this stuff
I'd honestly be fine with both (1% shuttle loop nerf + SH Aerial buffs); heck it could be just the aerial version only IMO. Interesting you're having the same thoughts probably after having your nair landing lag buff as I did after ours [Marth] (that the rest of our aerials being that much worse is an awkward dynamic).

And there are definitely relevant things MK does better in than ZSS. At least that was the premise at the time, a land of Super Leo Bros. You can chain/trap people into a roofie combo more reliably than us, you can recover more reliably than us (although ours is pretty great anyway), and you can gimp stronger than us, your throw game is arguably better than ours and obviously a better grab game. Would there be many match ups in the game where MK does better than Zero Suit? If you put it that way, probably not many (Pikachu, Ness, Olimar? maybemaybe Sheik), but you didn't, so nil points.

But my general thought process around balance is tuning down overwhelming abilities and buffing underwhelming moves is good for everyone, including top tiers.
And ZSS never being touched probably has a lot to do with the fact we're balanced.
Here I'm hoping for some negative y displacement hitbox tweaks (uair, jab, ftilt, fsmash) and maybe if they're super generous buff dtilt end lag/side-b (although they both have their uses though). Oh and I'd take a lot of kill power off up-b for it not having RCO/triple jump glitch.
But I have my doubts of them raining love at this moment~

 

[TriTails]

To be honest, EVERY character will get worse when they slowly are figured out.

Even Sheik. Even ZSS. Even Rosalina. It's just characters like Luigi who has obvious crippling weaknesses that are showing signs of crumpling faster.

 

[warionumbah2]

You frequently come in with "with a straight face" quip although I'm like, always right in the end with this stuff

I'll lose the straight face when Alex is announced for SFV.

 

[LightLV]

Please no. Unless this 'parry' works like in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (No limits, no damage, just a little pushback), the shield change would screw over the likes of Luigi or Ganon. They answer camping with shields (Luigi with Fireballs too). Nerfing shields would drop them in the tier list where Luigi might as well end up in mid tier and Ganon at bottom. PS is there, but most players don't seem to be able to do them consistently in this game.

But wait... Ganon strikes your shield with a 24% F-smash/U-smash with awful shield health delpletion. How's that sound like?

This game's shield mechanics are the worst part about it imo. Removing shieldpush and shieldstun really made smash4 feel like a much more binary entry in the series. I would have seen it expanded and tweaked better than Melee instead of outright removed except for a select few attacks.

If we're not bringing back shield pressure strings, i'd at least enjoy if S4 had some kind of mechanic that allowed you to practically work it down. Of course Pshielding is quite braindead now, so as that currently stands it wouldn't matter anyway.

 

[A_Kae]

This game's shield mechanics are the worst part about it imo. Removing shieldpush and shieldstun really made smash4 feel like a much more binary entry in the series. I would have seen it expanded and tweaked better than Melee instead of outright removed except for a select few attacks.

If we're not bringing back shield pressure strings, i'd at least enjoy if S4 had some kind of mechanic that allowed you to practically work it down. Of course Pshielding is quite braindead now, so as that currently stands it wouldn't matter anyway.

Shield stun and pushback certainly were not removed from Smash 4.

Powershielding is the same window that it's always been. Frames 1-4.

 

[oldkingcroz]

@ Fatmanonice 's For Glory talk:
So, you don't think very highly of Bowser Jr, eh? He's a very weird character, that I didn't feel has much going for him. That is until I fought one. His kill setups are insane, his aerials are lingering and disjointed, and he literally takes less damage from [most] attacks. He's a lot like Game & Watch, Wii Fit, and Charizard in how despite them not appearing good, have been getting decent results. These characters have their faults, but they are more weird than bad imo.

As for the rest of your list, Doc might be pretty solid with customs, though. Bowser is meh, and I swear that during e3 last year he was going to be good. Everyone was playing him during Nintendo's treehouse. Samus feels like she was designed bad, despite being bad in Brawl. Her rising fair to fair/upair to up b combos are slightly redeeming, though. Still, I agree with ya on the notion that these characters will be buffed eventually.

 

[Wintropy]

The Arms can be used like Raptor Boost. You run through people and when they soptdodge, quickly do an Arm attack backwards.

They can indeed if your opponent doesn't expect the retaliation. That's the beauty of Pit: his playstyle encourages you to get inside your opponent's head and condition them to blink first.

Then, the second you see the opponent's lids drop, you smack 'em right between the eyes~

Which is why I think Pit will remain consistent in the metagame, yet never quite reach the hallowed Olympus of high-tier. He's a fundamentally solid character with no extraneous strengths or weaknesses, but that's about it. He has a tendency to struggle against opponents whose ease of application of their strengths outdoes the ease with which you can exploit their weaknesses. I can't really envision him going up or down to any extreme, short of other mid-tier characters getting buffed massively or his few weaker matchups getting nerfed into the dirt.

His uair wasn't touched. The cargo u throw had it's base knockback and scaling reduced allowing better followups. You could also use fair, but since it's so much slower, some people can AD before it comes out. If his uair was touched a LA buffed, well, no problem for me. I just wonder why the people I play are so salty though. DK didn't jump a tier with the buff and most DKs (I would imagine) start fishing for grabs more than ever (hence playing silly). They ain't mad when Ike has a woodchipper combo (u throw/dthrow to uair, which kills significantly earlier due to the high base knockback and great scaling) or dthrow/u throw to fair. As soon as DK gets one, it's the end of the world, kk. #logic. (BTW ain't mad for Ike having grab combos cuz I also use him).

Oh, okay. That makes sense. Thanks!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Have we looked into ZSS matchups yet? The way I see it it's looking like this in the current metagame:

- She loses slightly to Sheik
- She beats Rosalina and has very favorable results against Sonic
- Claims that she loses to Fox are not backed up by tournament results - those tend to be even
- She doesn't seem to struggle with any of the known/assumed "anti-meta" character like Luigi, Villager or Lucario
- Claims that she loses to Pikachu are not backed up by results that can be conisedered representative [imo]
- Wario, Mario, Yoshi and Falcon all don't beat her - at least there's no reason to assume so
- What about vs Ness? @NickRiddle @ Shaya
- She beats Sword wielders pretty handily

So it's fair to assume that she has to be the #2 character pretty much? Nobody else seems to have what it takes to rival her for that spot.

 

[warionumbah2]

And when Sheik gets a real nerf, ZSS will be the best in game.

Its inevitable.

 

[Sinister Slush]

ZSS can guarantee a stock if she so much as gets Dthrow on Yoshi regardless how you DI. Doesn't help that he's in the big character size category like ROB where no matter how he DI's he cannot get out of Boost kick as well.
Early on in like the first few months of Wii U, we had a minor discussion on the MU and thought it was 50:50, but now the past month or two has made me think this is more of a 60:40 ZSS favor.

 

[Illuminose]

I think it's fair to call ZSS #2 at this point, but if we're talking matchup spread I think Pikachu /almost/ rivals that. His only losing matchup is Luigi, which happpens to be a big deal, but he goes even with or beats every single other character in the game. ZSS definitely loses to Pikachu idk what you're on about but yeah, she's the best pick for #2 at this point.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And when Sheik gets a real nerf, ZSS will be the best in game.

Its inevitable.

I dunno, I think a reasonable nerf to needles could just about even things up between Sheik and ZSS - regarding both the direct matchup and the tier placement. They'd still probably be a level above everybody else though.

 

[Man Li Gi]

This game's shield mechanics are the worst part about it imo. Removing shieldpush and shieldstun really made smash4 feel like a much more binary entry in the series. I would have seen it expanded and tweaked better than Melee instead of outright removed except for a select few attacks.

If we're not bringing back shield pressure strings, i'd at least enjoy if S4 had some kind of mechanic that allowed you to practically work it down. Of course Pshielding is quite braindead now, so as that currently stands it wouldn't matter anyway.

Did someone say Exxxpanded?

Before the Shaya force moves in, I don't think you know what you're talking about. There's definitely shieldstun in this game (hence why people say that Luigi's fireballs on shield are safe). Shield push back may have nerfed due to some key attacks doing less damage, but removed, bruh. The only shield push removed is shield push on the edge, where people still stay on stage after taking a devastating blow to shield. Other than that, shield push is still a prominent factor in the game (sometimes the reason Luigi can't get the followups he wants).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

And when Sheik gets a real nerf, ZSS will be the best in game.

Its inevitable.

And then people will complain about her being far better than the rest if the cast and the cycle continues.

 

[LightLV]

Shield stun and pushback certainly were not removed from Smash 4.

Powershielding is the same window that it's always been. Frames 1-4.

It was made alot easier in brawl. I should probably stop thinking of Melee when I post here, my fault.

And whaatttt? Shieldstun/push were most certainly removed, for all practical intent unless you're little mac or someone. Unless we're speaking technically...it's about as unremoved as hitstun was from brawl.

 

[Man Li Gi]

It was made alot easier in brawl. I should probably stop thinking of Melee when I post here, my fault.

And whaatttt? Shieldstun/push were most certainly removed, for all practical intent unless you're little mac or someone. Unless we're speaking technically...it's about as Unremoved as hitstun was from brawl.

PS in Melee was 1-2 frames and others (that have it) are 1-4.

No, shield push and shieldstun weren't removed. If they were, this meta could have been hypothetically different.

What the hell does it mean to be Unremoved? I hope you mean removed and for some reason messed up in delivery of your statememt.

 

[Fatmanonice]

@ Fatmanonice 's For Glory talk:
So, you don't think very highly of Bowser Jr, eh? He's a very weird character, that I didn't feel has much going for him. That is until I fought one. His kill setups are insane, his aerials are lingering and disjointed, and he literally takes less damage from [most] attacks. He's a lot like Game & Watch, Wii Fit, and Charizard in how despite them not appearing good, have been getting decent results. These characters have their faults, but they are more weird than bad imo.

It's not a matter of thinking less of Bowser Jr (Shiggity -ity is one of my best characters) , it's just recognizing that the character does have real problems that hold them back. For example, he doesn't deal well with characters being below him and doesn't have a whole lot of answers to being juggled. Despite his mobility, he still has issues with getting camped out with some characters ( is ulcer inducing) and rush down characters that can easily follow up in the air like (at least the jab lock is now gone) and are teeth grindingly aggravating because he doesn't have a lot of options to get people off him. There's also the fact that his kill options aren't that reliable and generally rely on you genuinely outsmarting or trapping your opponent to pull them off. It's not likely that you're going to be able to just throw out a bair or a smash attack and get the kill most of the time. His angled fsmash is awesome and so is his patented Smack Yo Momma Hammer™ out of Abandon Ship but, that's the catch, his kills often rely on throwing your opponent off guard and setting them up. If you watch good Bowser Jr players like Tweek, you'll notice that their tournament runs tend to come to an abrupt end because of these shortcomings. It's easy to outfox players who are decidedly worse than you but once you get to the higher levels, players aren't going to be falling for a lot of standard Bowser Jr tactics and outpacing them mentally is a real challenge. This all being said, Bowser Jr, like his father, is decidedly mid tier but probably on the lower end of the spectrum so I believe the character should be tweaked to help deal with his short comings.