Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

its not that they dont want combo throws, but having combo throws kinda beats the purpose of

 

[Luco]

Honestly, I think ryu fits that mold. He doesn't have snakes ftilt or utilt. But he's still dangerous and probably the best heavy.

Ryu... Or maybe Wario? Wario is one of the most unorthodox heavies I know of in this game, with fantastic mobility specs, the ability to camp you out by doing absolutely nothing and a practically ungimpable recovery.

Ryu is really really good though, but his lackluster mobility specs and somewhat one dimensional (although good) recovery do put him in line with a slightly more traditional view, and his mobility might also hurt him in areas that it doesn't for Wario against the more mobile top tiers of the game. Although I should look at his initial dash, it might not matter, come to think of it. I've seen Shoryuken punishes off of like, everything lol. Also FAC gets him around I guess?

That's probably a load of bull that I'm spouting though. @ Emblem Lord ? Who do you think is better / has the most useful traits?

 

[Tainic]

Marth's throws are fine really, maybe he could use a uthrow buff but even that is luxury at that point, DThrow is an ok combo throw as long as you know how to fish for airdodges and f/b throws are just standard.

 

[TriTails]

20-30 percent nerf on shields would make some moves super deadly to even be near by. That's a little extreme.

Woah.

Luigi in a game of 20-30HP shields?

Fire Jump Punch OP.

falls over on his back, falls and drops her leg on the enemy, and sits down on the opponents back. animation doesnt have to make sense for combos to work.

In case you haven't noticed, Luigi jumps right back up to standing position after ground pounding opponents.

 

[Emblem Lord]

...

Have you guys seen Ryus mobility specs?

He is nowhere near as slow as you think.

His walk speed is bad. And....yeah.

He runs as fast as Mario btw.

Also...only character with an airdash.

 

[Nobie]

Actually the buff I'm most excited about is DK's fsmash and I don't even play DK. What's that? The animation matches the length of his arms? Boy howdy.

*not sarcasm, really

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ryu... Or maybe Wario? Wario is one of the most unorthodox heavies I know of in this game, with fantastic mobility specs, the ability to camp you out by doing absolutely nothing and a practically ungimpable recovery.

Ryu is really really good though, but his lackluster mobility specs and somewhat one dimensional (although good) recovery do put him in line with a slightly more traditional view, and his mobility might also hurt him in areas that it doesn't for Wario against the more mobile top tiers of the game.

That's probably a load of bull that I'm spouting though. @ Emblem Lord ? Who do you think is better / has the most useful traits?

Ryu has some really great tools. Mobility is king in this game but I think there's exception. Ryu's recovery isn't that linear. Imo and you have to account for a lot of options in order to gimp him. If he's tastuing bacj to stage that's probably the easiest option to read. I find jump tastu a bit harder to deal with. Then there's focus which can absorb a hit. Focus dash which can be good for movement. Can be read but they don't always have to go towards the stage. Which can seem counter intuitive but as long as you have your jump you should be able to tastu and DJ srk or jump tastu and then srk.

 

[Blobface]

Just putting it out there, shield regen is the lowest it's been in any smash game AFAIK.

 

[Luco]

...

Have you guys seen Ryus mobility specs?

He is nowhere near as slow as you think.

His walk speed is bad. And....yeah.

He runs as fast as Mario btw.

Also...only character with an airdash.

(Also @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY )

Yeah I forgot about then added FAC to my original post, and tested out run speed and was pleasantly (or terrifyingly?) surprised.

Normal aerial speed also seems to be fine, it just seems to be aerial deceleration that makes his aerial mobility seem lackluster, which is what FAC is there for I guess.

Between him and Wario though, would you rate one higher than the other?

 

[Kofu]

Just putting it out there, shield regen is the lowest it's been in any smash game AFAIK.

Not sure about this, watching Brawl videos shields regenerate much slower there. But unlike Brawl (and I believe Melee) shields take the full brunt of an attack now.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

(Also @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY )

Yeah I forgot about then added FAC to my original post, and tested out run speed and was pleasantly (or terrifyingly?) surprised.

Normal aerial speed also seems to be fine, it just seems to be aerial deceleration that makes his aerial mobility seem lackluster, which is what FAC is there for I guess.

Between him and Wario though, would you rate one higher than the other?

I would probably rate ryu higher because of his ground game. Personally I'm on the verge of rating ryu in the top 10. I think they're both good characters both top 15 in my opinion. I may be over ratibg ryu but the more I look at his frame data the more annoyed I get. I also think he has a pretty bs move in his fair. Then there's his true SRK. Which is a pretty silly move.

 

[Pyr]

aaaa

Not sure about this, watching Brawl videos shields regenerate much slower there. But unlike Brawl (and I believe Melee) shields take the full brunt of an attack now.

IIRC Brawl shield regen was 4.1 points/sec, with SSB4 being around 3.8. The part where they take the full brunt of the attack now is true, though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Actually the buff I'm most excited about is DK's fsmash and I don't even play DK. What's that? The animation matches the length of his arms? Boy howdy.

*not sarcasm, really

Forget Fsmash. USMASH can be used OoS and actually hit people sometimes!

 

[adom4]

Forget Fsmash. USMASH can be used OoS and actually hit people sometimes!

I really like that every patch at least one move with dumb blind spots gets fixed, now they just need to take care of Samus.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I really like that every patch at least one move with dumb blind spots gets fixed, now they just need to take care of Samus.

Honestly I'm baffled at the lack of Samus fixes in this game. It could be because of how she's very common on For Glory and casual players think the strategy of roll roll roll roll projectile roll roll roll projectile is OP.

 

[oldkingcroz]

I think the tool given to DK makes him *really good now. I hope is competitive players prove me right over the next few months.

DK now doesn't need to overextend for good reward. His general movement is good for his weight, and can rely on his tilts, safe aerials, and grab.

From a short time using it, I still think that Ike's grab game is better if you utilize footstools and stage positioning, but DK's is just so easy to perform.



Ike's horizontal air speed is a touch below Falcon's and Sheik's. That's decent enough imo.

If you trigger your quick draw at the top of the stage, you can simply initiate another quick draw or jump, air dodge, etc. Ike's recovery is overall quite good, especially if you have any resemblance of decent DI.



If Ike is below the stage, depending on the stage, Ike can throw the sword up through a decent part of the stage. Ness' PKT isn't going to be very scary unless Ness is pretty close. There's also the option of DIing towards the stage and teching when necessary. It's scary, but can be handled with enough skill.

Above, Ike can reaction quick draw based on where PKT is heading.



No need to counter. You can easily just eruption and kill Ness at 50% every time? Ike can also aerial if he wants or the traditional option of air dodge into the PKT ball. Even if you do try counter for some reason and mess up, DI towards the stage and tech.

@Fair chains, have you ever been hit by Yoshi's egg launch at higher percents as Ike? You are put in practically the same spot (slightly below stage level and near the blast zone), as you would by 2-3 fair chains. You hardly have the time to initiate a double jump quick draw, and double jump to up speial doesn't work at all. DIing out of fair chains works, but, Ike is still put in a bad position. At lower percents, you'll be eating 2/3 fairs from a Ness's dthrow, either way.

@Recovering horizontally, let's say Ness hits Ike with a fsmash or bair, and Ike decides to recover high/ at mid level. Ness launches a PK thunder and is approaching Ike. Ness's thunder is slowly descending, much like Ike is. Ike is forced to go into the thunder. You release the trigger, eat the thunder, and recover again (this time closer to the stage). Yes- Ike can see where the thunder is [going], but what can he do to stop it, besides hitting it after a decent charge?

@ Countering offstage, that's exactly what I am talking about. I was responding to the two dudes that both suggested countering to stop Ness's recovery. It's incredibly risky. I agree with you completely. Eruption (or better yet, the custom variant) are much better options.

 

[Asdioh]

When they finally realize that heavies need a few fast attacks and some form of mobility or at least a few of the better aspects of characters we might see some rise higher than before.

Exactly. Just having a couple competitive fast attacks makes a character so much better.

Too much shield stun would make OoS options feel clunky. Decreasing shield regeneration and re-implementing shield edge slips would easily fix the problem. Regeneration doesn't even have to be decreased that much, maybe Brawl levels or slightly worse.

Also exactly! Do you guys ever try to do something OoS, say, Bair OoS as a punish, and you end up buffering a roll? Imagine that happening more. Also too many moves would become dumbly safe on shield. You don't need Melee's shield pressure, that was kind of absurd at times. I don't know if regeneration is even a problem like people keep saying, but shield edge slips would definitely be useful.

 

[Ghostbone]

Buffering OoS options is so annoying in this game because you can only buffer one input.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Why would people want changes across the entire board of characters without considering the entire cast first? I swear I see people saying "we need more shield stun" or "l canceling needs to come back" or "the new AD mechanics are good/great". Do they understand the magnitude or implications of these supposed "balancing" features? It only helps the characters with already good framedata/good neutral/strong stage presence or strong stage control/covers landings.

In other words, it exacerbates weaknesses in many characters far more than actually help them. I guess "gotta go fast, gotta go fast, gotta go faster, faster, faster, faster, faster" is more viewer friendly, but people who don't play fast characters are suffering.

The first time heavies finally got something that helped them out, people were saying "ugh ur too slow". Then I want to ask them if would want Ganon or KD3 to coming at you with ZSS'S speed? If the answer is no, then don't get mad.

I just feel if people want to shoehorn an offensive tactic, fine. Just be as opened to shoehorn an equally influential defensive aspect because most of us agree that offensive options help out offensive based characters.

For instance, if l canceling was in the game, it could very well be the destruction of the game. Sure Ganon's fair (taking Melee l canceling system) would make his fair landing lag from 23 frames to 12 frames. Awesome right? I think so too. But you who else would think so? . Imagine 5 frames of landing lag on fair and that's how the meta will progress. Sure everybody will moving fast.........into the blast zones.

Again, system wide decisions like this truly must take ALL characters into account.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well here's another discussion point, this is who ZeRo thinks counters Luigi. So I come here to ask you all, who do YOU think counters Luigi?

 

[Antonykun]

Well here's another discussion point, this is who ZeRo thinks counters Luigi. So I come here to ask you all, who do YOU think counters Luigi?

He forgot Villager
but none of that matters because Luigi is more about punishing poor spacing. Even if you use Sheik/ZSS/Luma you won't beat Luigi if your spacing is not on point

 

[Ikes]

Well here's another discussion point, this is who ZeRo thinks counters Luigi. So I come here to ask you all, who do YOU think counters Luigi?

Toon Link definitely does well, probably 60:40.

also am I the only one who adores that slowed down target stage theme at the end? it's so perfect

 

[san.]

@Fair chains, have you ever been hit by Yoshi's egg launch at higher percents as Ike? You are put in practically the same spot (slightly below stage level and near the blast zone), as you would by 2-3 fair chains. You hardly have the time to initiate a double jump quick draw, and double jump to up speial doesn't work at all. DIing out of fair chains works, but, Ike is still put in a bad position. At lower percents, you'll be eating 2/3 fairs from a Ness's dthrow, either way.

This isn't part of my post and this doesn't sound like a chain of fairs, but I'll answer it anyways. Move away and mash out or move on stage when you're in the egg. Why put yourself in the worst position? If you are put offstage guaranteed, adjust your mashing speed based on yoshi's position. Yoshi can't go too deep since aether becomes a threat if he fails. Fair in general is pretty slow and can be air dodged on reaction anyways.

@Recovering horizontally, let's say Ness hits Ike with a fsmash or bair, and Ike decides to recover high/ at mid level. Ness launches a PK thunder and is approaching Ike. Ness's thunder is slowly descending, much like Ike is. Ike is forced to go into the thunder. You release the trigger, eat the thunder, and recover again (this time closer to the stage). Yes- Ike can see where the thunder is [going], but what can he do to stop it, besides hitting it after a decent charge?

Ness hitting with an fsmash.. Anyways, how is PK thunder descending when Ike is recovering high? If Ike is close enough where PKT is a threat to reach him horizontally, he's already released on the start of PKT to the edge. If Ness committed himself to using PKT right after hitting Ike, Ike has all the time in the world with his double jump and offstage position to adjust to PKT's placement. If Ike is below the stage, Ike has to try to get aether to hit ness, or perform an early aether and DI correctly.

Both of these situations aren't very plausible until Ike already chose bad DI + option choice.

@ Countering offstage, that's exactly what I am talking about. I was responding to the two dudes that both suggested countering to stop Ness's recovery. It's incredibly risky. I agree with you completely. Eruption (or better yet, the custom variant) are much better options.

I never said it was very risky (or at least I don't think I did), it's just not as easy as eruption. Counter is somewhat easy to use but it gives Ness the opportunity to adjust his timing. Default eruption is better since it hits farther below for 7 frames (or 5 frames once fully charged), while the others hit higher, allowing ness to be safe for some angles. Wind eruption gimps Ness when he's offstage, but why go through the work when you can just hold default at the edge and even have trouble reaching him if he's directly below?

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Hey guys.

Fighting Sonic with high shield-stun.

That is all.

Yeah. That would be....rough. And decreasing shield health would mean that plenty of characters could get shield breaks stupid easy. (This would actually be a pretty big buff to Samus. She has a lot of attacks with high shield damage, and when the opponent's shield does break, she can quickly push them to the ledge and combo down-b into d-air spike for a guaranteed kill at most percentages.)

That's why I think lowering the regeneration rate is the best solution. As it is, dishing out shield damage hardly matters unless you break it in one go.

 

[Ikes]

I just think more characters need reliable ways of dealing high damage to shields. Keep most moves normal, but make moves like Doc/Luigi Cyclone or Mach tornado, or Falco's Dair do much more shield damage. Make people think twice about sitting in shield too long

moves I'd like to see do more shield damage though

-Mach Tornado
-Falco Dair
-Falco F-Tilt
-Doc Fair (if it even broke shields it would bring doc up a ton)
-Doc Bair (I think as a slower, more powerful mario, Doc should be terrifying towards shields)
-Both cyclones (Doc/Lugi)
-DK Fair
-DK Dair
-Ganon Fair
-Wario Dair
-Toon Link Dair (so it's a bit less shield-able)
-Toon Link Fair
-Falcon Sweetspot Fair
-Toon Link grounded Up-B
-Lucas Sweetspot Fair, Dair, and Bair
-Lucas PSI Magnet
-Lucas D-Smash (hit 3 should be the shieldbreaker with the other two doing minor shield damage and low shield Knockback, should only break shields if all 3 hits land though)
-Lucas Usmash (should straight up break shields IMHO)

 

[Smog Frog]

Well here's another discussion point, this is who ZeRo thinks counters Luigi. So I come here to ask you all, who do YOU think counters Luigi?

a top player like him STILL thinks top 5? is he completely oblivious to this characters glaring faults and underwhelming results compared to other top tier characters?? all have better theory and results to prove their superior theory.

anyways, to answer the question, i think he missed when talking about counterpicks to . they are all strong spacing characters with means to wall him out and invalidate his projectile.

e @ above: usmash shouldnt straight up break shields. its not slow enough to warrant that AND it lasts forever so spotdodges wouldnt work. it should do something like headbutt though: do enough to the point where any further damage breaks the shield or if used on a full shield make it a m&m.

 

[Pyr]

Yeah. That would be....rough. And decreasing shield health would mean that plenty of characters could get shield breaks stupid easy.

That's why I think lowering the regeneration rate is the best solution. As it is, dishing out shield damage hardly matters unless you break it in one go.

Really getting tired of seeing this suggestion. Fun facts, after I went reconfirming things (and minor testing within each respective game):

Depletion is the third lowest, with Smash 64 being lowest of all.
Regen is the lowest of all 4 games.
Effective health is the lowest of all 4 games. (Melee and Brawl had a modifier that lessened shield damage from attacks by 30%, not affecting things that deal additional shield damage. Ex: 30 (+10) would deal 31 shield damage in those games and 40 in Smash 4)

Shields aren't the problem. The game engine is. Really, the balance is nice and there isn't an issue in my eyes. This is coming from a guy that mains a character where simply playing him makes a lot of his opponent's options safe on shield because I get sent flying off the stage for hard blocking a tilt after a standing get up from the ledge.

But then suggesting changes we want to see was what killed the thread this one was birthed from, wasn't it?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How much better would Samus end up if all her moves with horrible blind spots gets fixed?

 

[Blobface]

I think part of why Luigi has been so (possibly over)hyped is because, originally a lot of people thought he was one of the worst characters IIRC. Then along comes Boss winning almost every Xanadu with combos straight out of mvc3 and everyone goes "whoa, Luigi top tier!"

Dramatization of course, but you get the idea.

 

[Smog Frog]

xanadu isnt exactly what i would call a reputable source of results. its literally a couple of high level players that make it to gfs nearly every week with the rest being either mid level or low level players. excels among low-mid level players.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Well here's another discussion point, this is who ZeRo thinks counters Luigi. So I come here to ask you all, who do YOU think counters Luigi?

A character that can camp Luigi, has strong off stage presence and is generally hard to grab?

I can think of a bunch of characters this description applies to (including Wario and Meta Knight) and not all of them have a good MU against Luigi, and I'm honestly not surprised by his choices. Kinda disappointed, actually.

 

[Ikes]

xanadu isnt exactly what i would call a reputable source of results. its literally a couple of high level players that make it to gfs nearly every week with the rest being either mid level or low level players. excels among low-mid level players.

I guess everyone that Larry Lurr or False have beaten with Luigi are just low-mid level players

 

[Ffamran]

How much better would Samus end up if all her moves with horrible blind spots gets fixed?

It'd be like patching up Melee Roy's hitboxes with the main difference being that Melee Roy was a decent character. It wouldn't be like patching up Smash 4 Meta Knight or Zelda where Meta Knight clearly had issues hitting anything at all and where Zelda's Up and Side Smashes didn't even connect properly while Phantom Slash was kind of dead weight. Melee Roy, Smash 4 Samus, DK, and whoever else... Falco worked. Even with iffy hitboxes or moves not connecting well like Falco's Nair, Up Smash, and Up Smash, they worked. There's a difference between having very inconsistent or poorly functioning attacks versus hitboxes that have slight dead zones or very small chances of failing like Diddy's Up Smash, ZSS's Side Smash, and Sheik's Side Smash.

Oh, Samus can now hit with Nair closer, Side Smash has a hitbox when she thrusts her arm cannon out, and dash attack? No, that's not going to be changed. If that's getting changed, then Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot should have a hitbox the moment Ganondorf sets himself up before launching forward. Samus would have better hitboxes, but as a whole, Samus would not be a better character and by better, I mean she's not somewhere in the low to bottom tier and now suddenly mid-tier.

 

[Smog Frog]

I guess everyone that Larry Lurr or False have beaten with Luigi are just low-mid level players

is an excellent counterpick character. \ they have excellent (actual!) top tier mains that they use mainly to get to top 16 of stacked majors.

 

[Ghostbone]

moves I'd like to see do more shield damage though

-Mach Tornado

Mach tornado does NOT need more shield damage

It's already an automatic poke on a shield that's eaten 2 up-airs.


Oh also, Luigi loses to the top 3 characters in the game (sheik/zss/rosa), but almost everyone loses to those 3, and luigi is advantaged vs basically everyone else that's relevant, I can see him being top 5 tbh.
Sonic, Ness, Mario, Pika, Fox and Diddy are all Luigi favoured.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I guess everyone that Larry Lurr or False have beaten with Luigi are just low-mid level players

Speaking of False. He informed me he would be going all Marth tonight at Smash 4ever. Gonna see how he did.

Edit: Currently tied for 2nd with Blue and Nairo's in 1st. So I'm guessing losers finals needs to happen still then Grands.

 

[Spinosaurus]

moves I'd like to see do more shield damage though

-Mach Tornado

You really don't want that

I do though

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay so False's Marth is amazing and I think this character suits his player style very well.

We saw the Robin (Nairo) vs Marth (False) MU in grand finals. It's very obvious Marth wins this MU. Even though it was Nairo you could tell False had the upper hand throughout most of each match. He kept himself in advantage. But Nairo clutched it out, thanks to Dthrow Uair and being Nairo pretty much.

 

[Ffamran]

Nairo bringing out Robin was pretty cool. Everyone, but Ike was there... Thanks a lot, FE crew. Ike fights for his friends and you abandon him.

Hmm, False has a Sheik, Luigi, Peach, and Marth now while Nairo still has his usual ZSS, Robin, Zelda, and Lucina. Didn't see much, but considering Marth's ground speed, Elthunder probably isn't that useful against him, right? Also, every time I see Keitaro go against Nairo, it makes me sad because Nairo literally stomps Keitaro's Falco with Zelda. ;_;

 

[Aunt Jemima]

This is guaranteed on several characters, but most importantly, it works on Sheik. The only way to escape it is to DI down on the F-Throw and shield, but Kirby can change the combo in several ways to cover this. He can start the combo with N-Air/U-Air/D-Tilt > Grab, which makes it so the entire combo is guaranteed. If he starts it with N-Air or U-Air, he only needs one U-Tilt to footstool, and doesn't need any pummels. If he starts it with D-Tilt, he needs to pummel once before F-Throw, and then only needs one U-Tilt.

Along with that, to get more damage, Kirby can reverse U-Tilt so it hits the 5% hitbox, then reverse it again for U-Tilt's Sourspot into Footstool. If he can condition the opponent properly to airdodge or try to attack him, he can D-Throw > D-Air after the F-Throw > U-Air and continue the combo using one U-Tilt, allowing him to do around 96% instead. If you get the U-Tilt > D-Air near a ledge, you can fast fall into a footstool to outright kill the opponent.

This is guaranteed on King Dedede and Bowser, regardless of DI. F-Throw > Footstool > Grounding Stone works on both of them from 0% to 25% with proper DI, so Kirby can get a ton of damage this way. He can footstool DK after F-Throw, too, but can't confirm into Grounding Stone due to how high DK pops up, along with his incredibly high air speed.

Unrelated to these combos, but @RK Joker brought up a good point on the Kirby boards. If you DI away from F-Throw, Kirby's B-Throw has you DI in. This means that on characters B-Throw > B-Air works (around half the cast), Kirby can get the combo at higher percents against opponents who try to DI away from F-Throw (which is the best option against it).