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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Trifroze

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RE: best tilts

Honestly, I'd definitely throw Samus in there. Utilt is safe on shield and does 13%, setting up for massive combos if you don't tech (and potentially charge shot if you do). Dtilt is f6, disjointed with a lot of range, quite safe and does 12%, and ftilt is similar to ZSS except more range and damage, slightly more cooldown and worse sourspots up-close. All the superheavies except Charizard have really good tilts as well. Little Mac has the best tilts though and I don't think there's any contest when you look at the speed, damage and safety of them. Ryu's tilts in my opinion are only good because of weak utilt and dtilt into SRK.

I'd say: :4littlemac: > :4fox: > :4samus: > :4sheik: > :4zss: > :4pikachu: > :4ryu: > :4dk: > :4metaknight: > :4bowser:
 
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Antonykun

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Guys... it's not even a contest. Little Mac's tilts are on another level.
on another level would imply that his up tilt is god tiered
RE: best tilts

Honestly, I'd definitely throw Samus in there. Utilt is safe on shield and does 13%, setting up for massive combos if you don't tech (and potentially charge shot if you do). Dtilt is f6, disjointed with a lot of range, quite safe and does 12%, and ftilt is similar to ZSS except more range and damage, slightly more cooldown and worse sourspots up-close. All the superheavies except Charizard have really good tilts as well. Little Mac has the best tilts though and I don't think there's any contest when you look at the speed, damage and safety of them. Ryu's tilts in my opinion are only good because of weak utilt and dtilt into SRK.

I'd say: :4littlemac: > :4fox: > :4samus: > :4sheik: > :4zss: > :4pikachu: > :4ryu: > :4dk: > :4metaknight: > :4bowser:
tfw swordfighters tilt's are nowhere to be found
 

Mario766

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Samus up tilt is safe on block? News to me. I've been punishing it on every Samus who tries to use it on me for a while now. F-Tilt is absolute garbage. Down Tilt at 32 endlag is ...

Really bad. But for frame 6 12 damage is really good.
 

Trifroze

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Samus up tilt is safe on block? News to me. I've been punishing it on every Samus who tries to use it on me for a while now. F-Tilt is absolute garbage. Down Tilt at 32 endlag is ...

Really bad. But for frame 6 12 damage is really good.
Ftilt is used as a max range poke, dtilt as a punish / spacing tool and utilt for whatever including platform pressure and edgeguards. Utilt I believe was -6 after shield drop so if you space it properly only a couple characters can punish it and that's with dash attacks (Sheik, Wario, possibly Fox but I don't think he reaches). As such it's among the safest ~7-8 tilts in the game, of course not if you use it right in the opponent's face but then none are except maybe Diddy's and Mac's dtilts.

Why is ftilt garbage? What are you comparing to besides Sheik and Fox? It's amazing and sets for tech chases with charge shot.
 

KirbySquad101

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I would also put Kirby among there as some of the best tilts; d-tilt is extremely fast and is very good for pokes/follow-ups, up-tilt is pretty much puts Kirby's combo game over the edge (and his feet are invincible), and f-tilt is very useful for spacing/poking as its frame 5 and one of Kirby's longer ranged attacks.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Falco has extremely good tilts. All of them do 9+ damage and come out very fast w/ little cool down. U-tilt and Down tilt setup into combos nicely, while ftilt is a decent poke. U-tilt is additionally a good anti air.
 

KirbySquad101

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Falco has extremely good tilts. All of them do 9+ damage and come out very fast w/ little cool down. U-tilt and Down tilt setup into combos nicely, while ftilt is a decent poke. U-tilt is additionally a good anti air.
Falco's d-tilt is incredibly silly; nearly the same start-up and damage as Samus' d-tilt, but has MUCH less cool down (10+ less cool down), and its killing power is nearly on par with most smash attacks; not to mention it's incredibly useful as a combo tool at lower percents, given it pretty much shares the same frame data as Ike's.

It's actually kind of hard seeing how Samus has one of the best sets of tilts when her d-tilt is completely outclassed by Falco's in nearly every category.
 

Nobie

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Falco's f-tilt is the stuff dreams are made of.
 

Nobie

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What's so good about the move besides spacing?
That's pretty much it. If you love to space juuust right, f-tilt just feels amazing. Footsies all day every day.
 
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Trifroze

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Falco's d-tilt is incredibly silly; nearly the same start-up and damage as Samus' d-tilt, but has MUCH less cool down (10+ less cool down), and its killing power is nearly on par with most smash attacks; not to mention it's incredibly useful as a combo tool at lower percents, given it pretty much shares the same frame data as Ike's.

It's actually kind of hard seeing how Samus has one of the best sets of tilts when her d-tilt is completely outclassed by Falco's in nearly every category.
Falco doesn't have nearly the same range let alone disjoint as Samus on his dtilt, there's nothing about it that outclasses her. It isn't strong either unless you're right next to the opponent when you do it, nullifying all its range and safety - at max range the move does 9% and doesn't kill at 200%.

For the sake of argument to prove a point of my own though, let's pretend Falco's dtilt almost completely outclasses Samus' dtilt. You can replace Samus in those sentences with literally any other character that has been suggested as a character with one of the best sets of tilts, except for Little Mac, and remain just as accurate. This is essentially the kind of bias always playing here:

1. "Sheik, Pikachu, ZSS and Samus all have good tilts"
2. "Falco has a dtilt that outclasses all of theirs"

> "How can Samus have good tilts when Falco outclasses her dtilt?"

Any reason for putting Bowser, MK, and ZSS on the list?
Bowser's ftilt is a safe poke with good range and it kills quite well near the ledge. Dtilt is also fairly safe, a kill move and does tons of shield damage + shieldstabs easily if the shield isn't full (25% damage on shield). Also hits the ledge. Utilt isn't terrible so overall I regard his tilts probably better than Ganondorf, although Ganondorf's ftilt and dtilt are better but with both having power and dtilt having safety instead of ftilt.

MK's ftilt kills after the buff and is probably the best sword jab in the game despite not being a jab, the fact that it has disjointed range and is a 3 part attack means quite a lot of safety because you can mix up the timing of the hits and the timing of when you stop the attack if you hit a shield. Dtilt is safe and a faster option by 2 frames and can trip, it just doesn't have a particularly good range but that's basically most dtilts. Utilt sometimes works as a punish/read and sets up for a world of pain with MK.

ZSS' utilt is f3, does 12%, her legs are invincible and it cannot be interrupted meaning it's an incredibly good CQC option that beats out clashes, as well as a great anti-air that beats out most moves pretty much just like Mario's usmash. It also hits onto BF platforms. The only downsides are the long cooldown and the fact that it doesn't hit all the way to the ground, but you have to use it in the right situations. Ftilt is in my opinion one of the best pokes in the game, it basically comes from the same production line as Fox's, Falco's and arguably Samus', Falcon's and Greninja's ftilts where they all have varied range and startup/cooldown but very similar damage, hitboxes and angles. ZSS' dtilt is her weakest one mostly because ftilt outdoes it in so many situations, but it's honestly a pretty good move. More range than probably any tilt in the game (?), hits low, decently fast, only medium cooldown and also makes ZSS hurtbox very low during it. Still can't call it a strong point though.

Anyway, some interesting stats to paint the picture about the ftilts:

Fox: f6-8, total 23, 8%, below medium range
Falco: f6-8, total 27, 9%, medium range
ZSS: f6-8, total 28, 8%, long range
Samus: f8-10, total 32, 9%, very long range
Falcon: f9-11, total 31, 10%, medium range
Greninja: f10-12, total 32, 7%, above medium range

They're all very good and it's hard to say which one's the best, except Falcon definitely stands out as the weakest one. I think ZSS and Falco have the most utility, but Fox and Greninja have the safest ones while Samus has the longest reaching one.

E: I actually can't see why Falcon's is clearly weaker than the others, but I probably felt that way because he'd almost always rather be going for a jab or dash stuff. It's as safe as Greninja's after all.
 
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KirbySquad101

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Falco doesn't have nearly the same range let alone disjoint as Samus on his dtilt, there's nothing about it that outclasses her. It isn't strong either unless you're right next to the opponent when you do it, nullifying all its range and safety - at max range the move does 9% and doesn't kill at 200%.

For the sake of argument to prove a point of my own though, let's pretend Falco's dtilt almost completely outclasses Samus' dtilt. You can replace Samus in those sentences with literally any other character that has been suggested as a character with one of the best sets of tilts, except for Little Mac, and remain just as accurate. This is essentially the kind of bias always playing here:

1. "Sheik, Pikachu, ZSS and Samus all have good tilts"
2. "Falco has a dtilt that outclasses all of theirs"

> "How can Samus have good tilts when Falco outclasses her dtilt?"/QUOTE]
I did not say Samus cannot have good tilts, just that how can she have the best tilts while Falco can't at the same time. Thank you for your reasoning, however; I appreciate the feedback, though I am a little skeptical; how good is the range of Samus' d-tilt exactly?

The message of my post - I can see - was quite unclear; I wasn't trying to argue that Samus shouldn't be there, but rather argue that why Falco should be right up there. This has nothing to do with bias (though possibly some towards Falco), Samus was more or less an example. ZSS is probably a more accurate choice, however, as I don't see her d-tilt being very useful compared to Samus'.
 
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Routa

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What about G&W? Yeah he does not have the best set of tilts, but above average I would say.

Ftilt comes on frame 10 and is a kill move (don't remember the % :S). Dtilt is the bs tilt. Why? It kills, it is fast (comes on frame 6) and it has bs windbox. His Utilt's only use is basically racking up some damage at low %. But it is good at its job.
 

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Little Mac = by far best tilts (and smashes) so yeah he doesn't count

Marth doesn't have the best tilts after Mac but I can confidently say that his are among the best. And here is a fact: he has the best tilts out of all weapon/disjoint users.

Ftilt: long range, arcing, easy to tipper, not laggy, one of the strongest Ftilts in the game. 9 or 12%, frames 8-11, end 35
Utilt: not laggy, extremely quick, great coverage everywhere (like other than Shulk and Bowser, nothing reaches like this Utilt), combo starter, very powerful, but low damage. 5, 6, or 9%, frames 6-12, ends 36
Dtilt: it's Marth's dtilt i mean come on. tiny hurtbox, great for getting in, shield pokes, very good input out of a walk, good damage for a fast Dtilt, great launch angle. sets up for Fair off-stage/dancing blade on-stage. 7 or 10%, frames 7-8, end 23

Ftilt and especially Utilt do have some hitbox issues though.

Additionally, I nominate Bowser and DK for also having tilts that are among the best.
 
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Ffamran

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What's so good about the move besides spacing?
As said before, that's the entire point of Ftilt other than for resets and that it's essentially a safer and angle-able jab because someone thought Falco's jab was broken in Brawl, so he had to have +7 frames added to both jab 1 and 2 and jab 2 to rapid jab had to have like +2 frames added between them letting anyone with a frame 5 below move like Luigi's Nair, Captain Falcon's jab, Ryu's Shoryuken, Jigglypuff's Rest, and DK's Spinning Kong to not just punish him, but hard punish him if he hesitates or tries for a jab mixup.

Oh, and someone thought that Brawl and Smash 4 Fox should have 23 total frames when his Ftilt does barely anything different than Falco's which kept it's "original" and Melee Fox's total frames of 27. At least with Luigi, his is only 2 total frames longer (32) than Mario's (29) while doing 1% more.

Fun fact: Fox moves during Ftilt; Falco doesn't. Fox only has slightly shorter range because he's shorter than Falco, but in a vacuum between the two, Fox wins between who has a safer Ftilt. Also, the fact Fox's ground speed is so high allowing him to use pivot Ftilts effectively adds another edge to Fox.

Falco's f-tilt is the stuff dreams are made of.
Except Fox's is better in every way, but damage and range. Range is only a matter of Fox just being shorter, but if Fox was as tall as Falco, then Falco's Ftilt becomes completely outclassed outside of damage which is almost neglible.

Falco doesn't have nearly the same range let alone disjoint as Samus on his dtilt, there's nothing about it that outclasses her. It isn't strong either unless you're right next to the opponent when you do it, nullifying all its range and safety - at max range the move does 9% and doesn't kill at 200%.
Before anything, if anyone compares Falco's Dtilt to Samus's or anyone else, you're better off comparing Ike's or another similar Dtilt to Samus's. Why? Because Falco's Dtilt is absurd and always has been since Melee. Really wished they changed the animation since a thin *** tail should not be killing when stacked against a blessed two-handed sword and a freaking explosion from a highly advanced firearm. Another note is that Ike's Dtilt is much different in Smash 4 than in Brawl.

If Falco was as tall as Samus, the range difference would be neglible. It's actually a good thing it has shorter range than Samus and I believe Ike's Dtilt because it would be stupid if it didn't... And it's already a stupid freaking move. Falco's Dtilt is his safest normal at max range. After shield drop, Ftilt is -7 and jab 1 is -10 while Dtilt is -6 with the disjoint and middle hitbox and -5 close up. Dtilt is also Falco's safest on-hit move; at 0%, it's +2 with the disjoint, +3 in between, and +10 close up. Against Ftilt and jab , Ftilt is -11 and jab 1 is -4, jab 2 is -8, and rapid jab finisher is -3. Falco's next best on-hit normal would be dash attack - which is telegraphed because, hey, a slow runner should also have an average-speed dash attack while a fast runner, Fox, should have a fast dash attack that's twice as fast as Falco's - at +8 clean or +6 late and on-shield, it's -24 clean and -17 late. You're better off using Utilt and be +1 on-hit at 0% or -13 with the second hit on-shield.

Between Dtilt and Ftilt, Dtilt is Falco's ideal spacing tool that loses to aerials and any move that puts someone in the air like Link's Side Smash for obvious reasons along with being outranged. Given that it's a disjoint unlike... everything he has except for Fair *insert giggle and groan here*, Blaster, and Reflector, it is Falco's safest normal to throw out. The killing potential is more for a quick, safe punish up close while it being a launcher like Ike and Samus's Dtilt is what separates it from being a generic spacing tool and gives it more versatility. So, Dtilt's priority is spacing followed by launching/setting up and followed by killing.

Bringing up that it doesn't kill at 206% max range - also kills at 176% with the middle hitbox - also becomes moot when Ike and Samus's doesn't kill until 215% or later which becomes freaking ridiculous how a 12% move, explosion, doesn't kill and kills at the same percent as a freaking god-slaying sword sweeping for 8% compared to a goddamned pheasant's tail feathers at its weakest range... Falco's Dtilt having Roy Side Smash hitboxes is just a bonus and even if it didn't, it would still be a decent move for Falco if not still the best normal for Falco which is kind of sad when you think about it.

Falco and Ike's Dtilts one-up on Samus's purely in recovery when they shouldn't. They basically do the same damn thing except Falco's has 3 hitboxes and is the dumbest thing to exist next to lemmings, Samus can reach over the ledge and does the most damage at 12%, and Ike's is the obligatory sword sweep.

Samus really shouldn't take 30 frames to recover to Falco's (and Fox's) 17 and Ike's 19 if it kills at similar percents and does similar things. If anything, it should be the one killing at 136%-ish not Falco's. With the current design, it should take at least 24 or even 17 to recover if Falco's allowed to keep a Dtilt like that while Samus isn't. In a similar case, this should also not make Shulk's Dtilt 3 frames slower on startup while doing less damage 3% to 4% than Samus, same to 4% less than Falco, and just 1% more than Ike. Would go into knockback and angles, but I'm on mobile.

Edit: Shouldn't this topic be focused here: http://smashboards.com/threads/best-moves-of-each-type.384871/? We should also have a worst moves as a topic.
 
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Radical Larry

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Okay, the best time to find actual good FG players is in the early morning. I'm telling you, these guys were tournament level, they were definitely on a different level than just a normal FG player; they knew what they were doing. Goes to show that sometimes For Glory can really catch you off guard and send great players right at you. If it was like that all the time, I'd be happy.

Little Mac = by far best tilts (and smashes) so yeah he doesn't count

Marth doesn't have the best tilts after Mac but I can confidently say that his are among the best. And here is a fact: he has the best tilts out of all weapon/disjoint users.

Ftilt: long range, arcing, easy to tipper, not laggy, one of the strongest Ftilts in the game. 9 or 12%, frames 8-11, end 35
Utilt: not laggy, extremely quick, great coverage everywhere (like other than Shulk and Bowser, nothing reaches like this Utilt), combo starter, very powerful, but low damage. 6 or 9%, frames 6-12, ends 36
Dtilt: it's Marth's dtilt i mean come on. tiny hurtbox, great for getting in, shield pokes, very good input out of a walk, good damage for a fast Dtilt, great launch angle. sets up for Fair off-stage/dancing blade on-stage. 7 or 10%, frames 7-8, end 23

Ftilt and especially Utilt do have some hitbox issues though.

Additionally, I nominate Bowser and DK for also having tilts that are among the best.
You got some data incorrect again; Marth's F-Tilt and U-Tilt are frame 37 and D-Tilt is 24 in terms of ending lag. Bit of miscalculations, but it's relevant, trust me.

Anyways, I'm just going to say that I nominate Link's tilts for among the best. Why?

F-Tilt: 13% damage, long range, arcs over Link's body, not laggy, has great reach and is one of the stronger F-Tilts in the game. It also provides a good gimping and edge-guarding option due to its wonderful range. Hits on frames 15-19 and ends frame 38.

U-Tilt: 9% damage, long range, arcs over Link's body, not laggy, can combo into itself or U-Smash and can KO very well. Hits on frames 8-12 and ends on frame 36.

D-Tilt: 11% damage, decent range, good shield poking capabilities due to its speed, great combo capabilities and meteors opponents who recover high. Hits on frames 11-12 and ends on frame 29.

Now going back to Marth's and Link's frame data comparison, they aren't much different in terms of their frame data, though there are some discrepancies. However, the real thing to look at in comparing them is not only their frame data, but what they can actually do with their tilts and how their tilts work. Link has two overhead anti-air tilts while Marth has only one overhead and one anti-air, but Link deals more damage overall, but Marth's is faster.

The thing is, is that the only significant difference is D-Tilt, as Marth's ends on frame 24 and Link's on 29, which is only 5 frames. People think to reason that Link's attacks are sluggish, when his tilts are almost on par with Marth's tilts in speed. Sure, there are some differences, but it's unbelievable that people really think Link's a sluggish attacker. In fact, pull up Kuroganehammer and compare the two.

The reason Link has "sluggish" attacks is because his attacks linger like no one's business. His D-Air starts on frame 14 and ends its hitboxes on frame 64; that's 50 frames, almost an entire second, of raw, pure hitbox. His U-Air starts on frame 11 and ends on 40, which is 29 frames of lingering hitboxes. His N-Air starts on frame 7 and ends on 31, that's 24 frames. I'm talking hitboxes here, and that's deceptively long in terms of hitboxes.

Heck, there are some attacks Link has that end faster and are less punishable than Marth's. D-Smash, N-Air, B-Air are examples of Link being less punishable.

Honestly, saying Link has "sluggish" attacks isn't something you should apply to him in this game. In previous games, yes he has sluggish attacks, but in this game, you got to acknowledge that Link's got better attacks than the previous game in terms of speed and power. Link's not too far from Marth's attack speed, and is definitely not too far from Ike's.

Also, going to say this now...
Little Mac's U-Tilt is pure garbage with its terrible reach and combo capabilities. I mean, what the heck are you supposed to follow up after that attack? I can possibly see a Rising Uppercut follow up or U-Air > U-Smash string somehow but those aren't likely possibilities.
 

Jamurai

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I wouldn't say it's a fact that Marth has the best sword user tilts. It's certainly at least debatable when compared with MK, and even Mii Sword.

Dtilt and Ftilt contribute to MK's amazing ground game; Dtilt is safe on block and is frame 3. It also trips (and hence sets up into his awesome combos), locks if they miss a tech, and makes the opponent pratt fall off platforms. Ftilt, while being a little slower (frame 6), is more flexible because you can mix up the timing of the 3 hits, catching spotdodges etc. Ftilt 3 also has the longest range of his normals, tied with jab finisher. It also kills near the edge at high %s.

Also, Utilt sourspot sets up into Uair combos at higher %s than dash attack which is very useful (Leo and Aba are the only ones doing this actively at high level). Utilt sweetspot can carry on the combo if MK has rage, as seen in the famous Leo vs Mr R set. It's one of our best options out of spotdodge and covers a lot of options at the ledge.

Against short range characters like Mario one can walk around and use MK's tilts to space out the opponent very effectively, with the help of perfect pivots and other movement options. There's a set of Salena using this strategy vs FILIP (Mario).

I'll let Antonykun Antonykun talk about Swordy's tilts if he feels inclined.
 

Emblem Lord

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ALOT of chars have good tilts guys. Isn't that something virtually EVERY person with higher knowledge agreed on about the cast in this game when it dropped? It's one of the main reasons why the tiers are so close. Almost everyone has the tools to play footsies and alot of that comes from many characters having good tilts.

And since people were posting match-up lists, here is mine. No explanation for now as I have work soon. Feel free to discuss it or crucify it. No skin off my nose.

-1 :4megaman::4pacman:

-.5 :4olimar::4dk::4sonic::4yoshi::rosalina::4myfriends:

0 :4link::4dedede::4marth::4pikachu::4lucina::4wario::4zss::4tlink::4sheik::4pit::4darkpit::4feroy::4lucas::4greninja::4metaknight::4shulk::4wiifit::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4ness::4rob::4villagerf::4diddy:

+.5 :4duckhunt::4zelda::4bowserjr::4mario::4littlemac::4kirby::4fox::4charizard::4gaw::4peach::4falcon::4lucario::4luigi::4robinm::4mewtwo::4palutena:

+1 :4falco::4ganondorf::4bowser::4drmario:

Some of these may look weird to you, but I will just say the raw consistent killing power Ryu possesses is simply too great and too much of a factor. Ryu can be getting handled then lands 3 hits and a confirm and now he's winning. He is fortunate that his worse match-ups are with chars that are not common (MM and Pac) and they both struggle to kill meaning Ryu WILL get rage pretty much every stock. Some chars like ROB for example, there is gyro counter play involved that make me feel its even. Same with MM and Pac though so in the future my opinion will probably change on those matches.

I might be too kind here and I'm sure some will argue that Ryu BODIES *insert random mid tier here* and maybe he does. I tend to be conservative with match-up numbers.

I do not feel he has any match he loses at the select screen. He simply does too much damage and kills too consistently.
 
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meleebrawler

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Edit: Shouldn't this topic be focused here: http://smashboards.com/threads/best-moves-of-each-type.384871/? We should also have a worst moves as a topic.
Yeah, I just don't see the productive value in comparing a small subset of moves between each character. It's interesting food-for-thought but when you're trying to see the merit of a character you look at ALL of their moves, not just their tilts. Ganondorf's utilt may be largely situational but usmash and uair pick up the slack as anti-airs.
 

Wintropy

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ALOT of chars have good tilts guys. Isn't that something virtually EVERY person with higher knowledge agreed on about the cast in this game when it dropped? It's one of the main reasons why the tiers are so close. Almost everyone has the tools to play footsies and alot of that comes from many characters having good tilts.

And since people were posting match-up lists, here is mine. No explanation for now as I have work soon. Feel free to discuss it or crucify it. No skin off my nose.

-1 :4megaman::4pacman:

-.5 :4olimar::4dk::4sonic::4yoshi::rosalina::4myfriends:

0 :4link::4dedede::4marth::4pikachu::4lucina::4wario::4zss::4tlink::4sheik::4pit::4darkpit::4feroy::4lucas::4greninja::4metaknight::4shulk::4wiifit::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4ness::4rob::4villagerf::4diddy:

+.5 :4duckhunt::4zelda::4bowserjr::4mario::4littlemac::4kirby::4fox::4charizard::4gaw::4peach::4falcon::4lucario::4luigi::4robinm::4mewtwo:

+1 :4falco::4ganondorf::4bowser::4drmario:

Some of these may look weird to you, but I will just say the raw consistent killing power Ryu possesses is simply too great and too much of a factor. Ryu can be getting handled then lands 3 hits and a confirm and now he's winning. He is fortunate that his worse match-ups are with chars that are not common (MM and Pac) and they both struggle to kill meaning Ryu WILL get rage pretty much every stock. Some chars like ROB for example, there is gyro counter play involved that make me feel its even. Same with MM and Pac though so in the future my opinion will probably change on those matches.

I might be too kind here and I'm sure some will argue that Ryu BODIES *insert random mid tier here* and maybe he does. I tend to be conservative with match-up numbers.

I do not feel he has any match he loses at the select screen. He simply does too much damage and kills too consistently.
Just to say, you forgot Palutena. I'm interested in your response.

Otherwise it seems good. The only matchup I feel qualified to critique is Pit (obvs~), but even seems reasonable.
 

Smog Frog

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i really dont like the idea of weight playing into matchups beyond a minor shift from 50:50 to 52.5/47.5. i mean, :4sheik::4fox::4pikachu::rosalina::4zss: are all light. matchups should be focused on neutral first and physics second.
 

Nobie

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Except Fox's is better in every way, but damage and range. Range is only a matter of Fox just being shorter, but if Fox was as tall as Falco, then Falco's Ftilt becomes completely outclassed outside of damage which is almost neglible.
Well as long as Fox doesn't hit Puberty II (or Puberty I as the case may be given his voice), then we don't have to worry about any sudden growth spurts changing his neutral game. I mean, I think it's clear that limb length is intentionally one of Falco's features meant to set him apart from Fox It's also significant that Foxes don't think they necessarily win the footsies game against Falco.

Yeah, I can tell.

:059:
G&W is a super slippery character with huge disjoints and a recovery that has a good chance to stage spike Ryu.

Mewtwo can take advantage of Ryu's poor aerial momentum well, has a reliable reflector to fight Hadoukens, and can put up a fight in neutral
 

Emblem Lord

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Nobie got it, but I will reiterate. Both G&W and Mewtwo do fine in neutral and Ryu basically loses hadouken in this match which is a solid mid range poke for him.

Ryu HAS advantage. Risk vs reward is pretty much always in his favor and he lives way longer. But he does not invalidate their tools. He just has better specs and reward.
 

Wintropy

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I just figured Pit wouldn't struggle too much with Ness thanks to all his long lasting disjoints and I also thought he wouldn't have much trouble edgeguarding him.
I think it's similar to Falcon, to be fair. It depends on who wins neutral and can keep up momentum. You want to make sure Ness can't get in and grab you, otherwise you're eating quite a bit of damage or an entire stock, so spacing is key. Disjoints definitely do help. Pit has a good neutral game, but Ness can easily reset if he gets put into disadvantage, so you want to play good footsies and make Ness respect your space. If he can't get in, he doesn't really have much to threaten Pit.

He is very easy to edgeguard if your timing's good, arrow sniping makes it difficult for him to connect PKT2 and, if you're very brave, you can gimp him with Pit's disjoints before PKT2 or just intercept the recovery with Orbies. It's high risk / high reward that's mitigated with good timing.

I think I was a bit rash when I said it's Pit's disadvantage. It's been a while since I fought a good Ness, I'm probably still reeling from release jitters.
 

Yikarur

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What about dropping "-0.5" ratios. This is not what the system was meant to archive.
"-0.5" is -1 because -1 describes a slight disadvantage.
if the disadvantage is clear it's a solid -2.
-2 doesn't mean "unwinnable", it just means it's not just a slight disadvantage anymore.
-2 sounds like a high number but going by the system we've invented in Brawl times what people call -1 atm over -0,5 is supposed to be -2.
 

the king of murder

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ALOT of chars have good tilts guys. Isn't that something virtually EVERY person with higher knowledge agreed on about the cast in this game when it dropped? It's one of the main reasons why the tiers are so close. Almost everyone has the tools to play footsies and alot of that comes from many characters having good tilts.

And since people were posting match-up lists, here is mine. No explanation for now as I have work soon. Feel free to discuss it or crucify it. No skin off my nose.

-1 :4megaman::4pacman:

-.5 :4olimar::4dk::4sonic::4yoshi::rosalina::4myfriends:

0 :4link::4dedede::4marth::4pikachu::4lucina::4wario::4zss::4tlink::4sheik::4pit::4darkpit::4feroy::4lucas::4greninja::4metaknight::4shulk::4wiifit::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4ness::4rob::4villagerf::4diddy:

+.5 :4duckhunt::4zelda::4bowserjr::4mario::4littlemac::4kirby::4fox::4charizard::4gaw::4peach::4falcon::4lucario::4luigi::4robinm::4mewtwo::4palutena:

+1 :4falco::4ganondorf::4bowser::4drmario:

Some of these may look weird to you, but I will just say the raw consistent killing power Ryu possesses is simply too great and too much of a factor. Ryu can be getting handled then lands 3 hits and a confirm and now he's winning. He is fortunate that his worse match-ups are with chars that are not common (MM and Pac) and they both struggle to kill meaning Ryu WILL get rage pretty much every stock. Some chars like ROB for example, there is gyro counter play involved that make me feel its even. Same with MM and Pac though so in the future my opinion will probably change on those matches.

I might be too kind here and I'm sure some will argue that Ryu BODIES *insert random mid tier here* and maybe he does. I tend to be conservative with match-up numbers.

I do not feel he has any match he loses at the select screen. He simply does too much damage and kills too consistently.
Why is DDD even? I thought he completely murders the big guys.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Why would DDD murder Ryu? How does DDD nullify Ryu's tools? Having gone against Atomsk and Gunblades DDDs, I do not see any special advantage either character has over the other.
 

Emblem Lord

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Eh. Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh. I know some DDD mains think Ryu wins. Ryu hits just as hard, has better advantage and disadvantage. But DDD can take a hit and he does fine in neutral. Also grab combos give him consistent damage and punish options.

If Ryu wins its slight imo.
 

AnEventHorizon

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Here are the results of the /r/smashbros voted tier list. There were about 940 votes. Direct Link.
Link to thread.

S = Best For Tournament Play, A = Solo Tournament Viable, B = Tournament Viable With Secondaries, C= Niche Use, D = Not Tournament Viable, F = Never Use

Results:

S: :4sheik::4zss:
A+: :rosalina::4pikachu::4mario:
A: :4diddy::4sonic::4ryu::4fox::4ness:
A-::4yoshi::4luigi::4falcon::4villager::4metaknight:
B+::4wario::4peach::4rob::4pit::4feroy::4myfriends:
B: :4darkpit::4pacman::4dk::4lucario::4lucas::4olimar::4greninja::4megaman::4tlink::4miibrawl:
B-::4kirby::4link::4gaw::4robinm::4falco::4marth:
C+::4wiifit::4bowserjr::4shulk::4littlemac::4drmario::4dedede:
C: :4duckhunt::4charizard::4lucina::4bowser::4jigglypuff::4ganondorf:
C-: :4samus::4miigun::4palutena::4mewtwo::4miisword:
D+::4zelda:
 
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Nu~

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Alright, I'll throw my hat in the ring.

:4pacman: Matchup chart


(Massive advantage)
:4littlemac:

(Advantage)
:4alph::4ganondorf::4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4drmario::4jigglypuff::4larry::4duckhunt::4link::4palutena::4luigi::4dk::4wiifit:

(Slight Advantage)
:4samus::4peach::4tlink::4megaman::4villager::4zelda::4falcon::4falco::4diddy::4rob::4ryu::4feroy::4gaw::4ness::4kirby:

(Even)
:4shulk::4sonic::4yoshi::4fox::4marth::4lucina::4mario::4metaknight::4darkpit::4pit::4lucario::4pikachu::4lucas::4pikachu::4robinm::4pacman::4myfriends:
:4zss:(Haven't fought one after the patch though, may have became disadvantageous)

(Slight Disadvantage)
:4sheik::rosalina::4greninja:
:4wario2:(May be even however since DA is completely safe on his shield and leads into a kill setup at 50-80%. Only thing we really don't like here is bite)


Feel free to eat me alive with your comments. I'm a bit unsure of some characters myself (greninja, zss, wario, robin, WFT, and shulk)
 
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Emblem Lord

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Here are the results of the /r/smashbros voted tier list. There were about 940 votes. Direct Link.
Link to thread.

S = Best For Tournament Play, A = Solo Tournament Viable, B = Tournament Viable With Secondaries, C= Niche Use, D = Not Tournament Viable, F = Never Use

Results:

S: :4sheik::4zss:
A+: :rosalina::4pikachu::4mario:
A: :4diddy::4sonic::4ryu::4fox::4ness:
A-::4yoshi::4luigi::4falcon::4villager::4metaknight:
B+::4wario::4peach::4rob::4pit::4feroy::4myfriends:
B: :4darkpit::4pacman::4dk::4lucario::4lucas::4olimar::4greninja::4megaman::4tlink::4miibrawl:
B-::4kirby::4link::4gaw::4robinm::4falco::4marth:
C+::4wiifit::4bowserjr::4shulk::4littlemac::4drmario::4dedede:
C: :4duckhunt::4charizard::4lucina::4bowser::4jigglypuff::4ganondorf:
C-: :4samus::4miigun::4palutena::4mewtwo::4miisword:
D+::4zelda:
Seeing Mario higher then Diddy, Sonic, Ryu and Fox...im like...

wut
 

Mario766

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No comment on Roy being B+

No comment on Ness top 10 either.
 
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Routa

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Kirby in the same tier as Marth... Huh... Well reddit is reddit I guess.

Still kinda amused by Mii Swordfighter being that low.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Alright, I'll throw my hat in the ring.

:4pacman: Matchup chart


(Massive advantage)
:4littlemac:

(Advantage)
:4alph::4ganondorf::4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4drmario::4jigglypuff::4larry::4duckhunt::4link::4palutena::4luigi::4dk::4wiifit:

(Slight Advantage)
:4samus::4peach::4tlink::4megaman::4villager::4zelda::4falcon::4falco::4diddy::4rob::4ryu::4feroy::4gaw::4ness::4kirby:

(Even)
:4shulk::4sonic::4yoshi::4fox::4marth::4lucina::4mario::4metaknight::4darkpit::4pit::4lucario::4pikachu::4lucas::4pikachu::4robinm::4pacman::4myfriends:
:4zss:(Haven't fought one after the patch though, may have became disadvantageous)

(Slight Disadvantage)
:4sheik::rosalina::4greninja:
:4wario2:(May be even however since DA is completely safe on his shield and leads into a kill setup at 50-80%. Only thing we really don't like here is bite)


Feel free to eat me alive with your comments. I'm a bit unsure of some characters myself (greninja, zss, wario, robin, WFT, and shulk)
Not that I will surprise you but I think you overrate Pac-Mans matchups by a good bit.

:059:
 
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