Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

This "post your character's matchup spread"-thing is really getting out of hand.

 

[Nu~]

@Peppermint1201
Explain how the rob matchup is that bad for us.

Gyro is taken out of the equation every time you throw it out. We can go up to it and trampoline to make it hard for you to pick it up.

Laser is good for cutting through our stuff, but it also gives us easy hydrant launches as long as we don't hit it first.

We also completely destroy him up close

 

[|RK|]

Does Yoshi really have any other MUS lIke this that are that lopsided?

Yoshi ****s us, but I don't think it's THAT bad. Should switch with Sonic, IMO. But Yoshi is one of the projectile characters we can't copy to do anything about. Eggs are always a hassle, plus airspeed, plus general Yoshi things.

But having played a (not very good, tbh) Yoshi in locals multiple times and going undefeated, I can say the eggs are what pushes the matchup over the top.


But Sonic is basically the devil.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Why Sonic?

 

[meleebrawler]

This "post your character's matchup spread"-thing is really getting out of hand.

Beats tier lists.

 

[Jamurai]

Matchup Chart

30:60:

35:65:None

40:60: (Possibly )

45:55 (Possibly)

50:50:(maybe, probably not)

55:45:(Most Likely)

60:40:

Notes:
*Never played aganist a Mii, those were just guesses
*Customs off, including miis. Mii Brawler and Palutena would be 40:60 customs on. Other matchups are better for Kirby though with customs so it's okay. IDK what Mii Gunner and Mii Swordfighter would be with all customs.

You're telling me that Kirby only has two or three matchups in which he actually has a slight disadvantage or more? You do realise only top tiers have a matchup spread this good, right? Don't kid yourself.

For starters, MK destroys Kirby, both in theory and in practice.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Plz stahp

I would move Fox to around 50:50 actually, and move Luigi down to 45:55 or 40:60; yes, Luigi can't kill out of his throws, but Fireballs still crap on us and he pretty much still wins any trade-off, along with being hard as **** to combo. Ike, I would also move down to 40:60; he has too many tools to take us on (Eruption, disjointed range, insane damage output and kill power).

Also not sure on the Lucairio matchup, either.



I think he's referring to the Mewtwo match-up as in how it's so much in Kirby's favor (60:40).

Plz stahp

I would move Fox to around 50:50 actually, and move Luigi down to 45:55 or 40:60; yes, Luigi can't kill out of his throws, but Fireballs still crap on us and he pretty much still wins any trade-off, along with being hard as **** to combo. Ike, I would also move down to 40:60; he has too many tools to take us on (Eruption, disjointed range, insane damage output and kill power).

Also not sure on the Lucairio matchup, either.



I think he's referring to the Mewtwo match-up as in how it's so much in Kirby's favor (60:40).

Fox, I was considering moving to even but I went aganist it, Kirby has enough to make it really close though. I just feel like Kirby's slow speed makes it easy for Fox to KO us. Way too early.

As for Luigi, in one of the S@Xs, back in April, Poyo VS. Boss appear to be 45:55 there. Now woth Kiby buffed and Luigi nerfed, I don't see how it coudn't be even.

For Ike, I think he, Marth, Roy, and Link may be 40:60, but I'm still not fully sure so I put them there, I should put that possibiltiy into my original matchup sread anyway.

And wait, can we crouch under something Mewtwo has?

 

[Routa]

I would like to hear reasoning behind Swordfighter vs Kirby and Rob. I think Swordfighter vs Kirby MU can differ from 45:55 to 55:45 (depending from Swordfighter's moveset and size). I would explain a bit more, but phone isn't the best thing to write with.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You're telling me that Kirby only has two or three matchups in which he actually has a slight disadvantage or more? You do realise only top tiers have a matchup spread this good, right? Don't kid yourself.

For starters, MK destroys Kirby, both in theory and in practice.

As said above, I forgot to mention Link, Marcina, Ike, and Roy may be 40:60.

Meta Knight I don't think is 40:60 or worse, although I was so sad with Abadango VS. Triple R I never anylsised it yet, will have to look into that.

 

[Nu~]

As said above, I forgot to mention Link, Marcina, Ike, and Roy may be 40:60.

Meta Knight I don't think is 40:60 or worse, although I was so sad with Abadango VS. Triple R I never anylsised it yet, will have to look into that.

There wasn't much to analyze outside of "Kirby dies when meta knight lands DA"

The matchup is awful

 

[Wintermelon43]

There wasn't much to analyze outside of "Kirby dies when meta knight lands DA"

The matchup is awful

Yea i'm gonna move him

 

[KirbySquad101]

You're telling me that Kirby only has two or three matchups in which he actually has a slight disadvantage or more? You do realise only top tiers have a matchup spread this good, right? Don't kid yourself.

For starters, MK destroys Kirby, both in theory and in practice.

Wait, his list shows that Kirby has 20+ slightly disadvantageous or worse match-ups.

What's the standards for a top tier match-up, spread, exactly?

 

[Trifroze]

Before anything, if anyone compares Falco's Dtilt to Samus's or anyone else, you're better off comparing Ike's or another similar Dtilt to Samus's. Why? Because Falco's Dtilt is absurd and always has been since Melee. Really wished they changed the animation since a thin *** tail should not be killing when stacked against a blessed two-handed sword and a freaking explosion from a highly advanced firearm. Another note is that Ike's Dtilt is much different in Smash 4 than in Brawl.

If Falco was as tall as Samus, the range difference would be neglible. It's actually a good thing it has shorter range than Samus and I believe Ike's Dtilt because it would be stupid if it didn't... And it's already a stupid freaking move. Falco's Dtilt is his safest normal at max range. After shield drop, Ftilt is -7 and jab 1 is -10 while Dtilt is -6 with the disjoint and middle hitbox and -5 close up. Dtilt is also Falco's safest on-hit move; at 0%, it's +2 with the disjoint, +3 in between, and +10 close up. Against Ftilt and jab , Ftilt is -11 and jab 1 is -4, jab 2 is -8, and rapid jab finisher is -3. Falco's next best on-hit normal would be dash attack - which is telegraphed because, hey, a slow runner should also have an average-speed dash attack while a fast runner, Fox, should have a fast dash attack that's twice as fast as Falco's - at +8 clean or +6 late and on-shield, it's -24 clean and -17 late. You're better off using Utilt and be +1 on-hit at 0% or -13 with the second hit on-shield.

Between Dtilt and Ftilt, Dtilt is Falco's ideal spacing tool that loses to aerials and any move that puts someone in the air like Link's Side Smash for obvious reasons along with being outranged. Given that it's a disjoint unlike... everything he has except for Fair *insert giggle and groan here*, Blaster, and Reflector, it is Falco's safest normal to throw out. The killing potential is more for a quick, safe punish up close while it being a launcher like Ike and Samus's Dtilt is what separates it from being a generic spacing tool and gives it more versatility. So, Dtilt's priority is spacing followed by launching/setting up and followed by killing.

Bringing up that it doesn't kill at 206% max range - also kills at 176% with the middle hitbox - also becomes moot when Ike and Samus's doesn't kill until 215% or later which becomes freaking ridiculous how a 12% move, explosion, doesn't kill and kills at the same percent as a freaking god-slaying sword sweeping for 8% compared to a goddamned pheasant's tail feathers at its weakest range... Falco's Dtilt having Roy Side Smash hitboxes is just a bonus and even if it didn't, it would still be a decent move for Falco if not still the best normal for Falco which is kind of sad when you think about it.

Falco and Ike's Dtilts one-up on Samus's purely in recovery when they shouldn't. They basically do the same damn thing except Falco's has 3 hitboxes and is the dumbest thing to exist next to lemmings, Samus can reach over the ledge and does the most damage at 12%, and Ike's is the obligatory sword sweep.

Samus really shouldn't take 30 frames to recover to Falco's (and Fox's) 17 and Ike's 19 if it kills at similar percents and does similar things. If anything, it should be the one killing at 136%-ish not Falco's. With the current design, it should take at least 24 or even 17 to recover if Falco's allowed to keep a Dtilt like that while Samus isn't. In a similar case, this should also not make Shulk's Dtilt 3 frames slower on startup while doing less damage 3% to 4% than Samus, same to 4% less than Falco, and just 1% more than Ike. Would go into knockback and angles, but I'm on mobile.

Edit: Shouldn't this topic be focused here: http://smashboards.com/threads/best-moves-of-each-type.384871/? We should also have a worst moves as a topic.

I'm not saying Samus' dtilt is better than Falco's, but that Falco's doesn't outclass it because they work differently and are used for completely different purposes. Ike's dtilt is definitely closer, but still a different move. Due to the higher damage, if Samus' dtilt lag was reduced by say, 10 frames (from 31 to 21), it'd become unpunishable and would no doubt be one of the best if not the best dtilt in the game. Same thing if it killed but remained unsafe, and if it did both, it'd be approaching Brawl Snake's utilt levels of overpowered. Right now I think it still stands as a good dtilt, coming out on frame 6 with plenty of disjointed range and doing 12% with "only" medium cooldown. None of Samus' tilts are amazing but they're all good, and few characters have that (Falco is another one who does who I overlooked originally).

 

[Wintermelon43]

Matchup Chart

30:60:

35:65:None

40:60: (Possibly )

45:55 (Possibly)

50:50:(maybe, probably not)

55:45:(Most Likely)

60:40:

Notes:
*Never played aganist a Mii, those were just guesses
*Customs off, including miis. Mii Brawler and Palutena would be 40:60 customs on. Other matchups are better for Kirby though with customs so it's okay. IDK what Mii Gunner and Mii Swordfighter would be with all customs.

Updated version


Also, could anyone please tell me how bad 45:55and 40:60 technically are in word form? That may make certain matchups worse

 

[|RK|]

Why Sonic?

Sonic runs rings around Kirby, and there's not much Kirby can do about it. Remember ESAM's video about Sonic? If you shield spindash, he ends up in the air, and you can attack him there, but... Kirby is so slow.

That and Sonic's standard hit n' run game does wonders against a character that can't really punish him for anything. We can stuff spindash with jab, but that's only if he comes right at the jab.

 

[HeroMystic]

Updated version


Also, could anyone please tell me how bad 45:55and 40:60 technically are in word form? That may make certain matchups worse

40:60 is a clear advantage/disadvantage for a certain character. Doable, but you're gonna have to make some good reads to make up for that disadvantage.

45:55 is "Well this character seems like he has the advantage but my character doesn't suck that hard so lets make it even."

 

[meleebrawler]

I'll try my hand at making a Mewtwo matchup chart:

35:65:
40:60 (Have tools/stats that make it difficult for Mewtwo to play his game but can still be overcome):

45:55 (Either outneutrals but has trouble sealing the deal/very vulnerable when they fail or fundamentally even if not for Mewtwo's weight):

50:50:

55:45 (Fundamentally wins but strengths are not to be underestimated):

60:40:

Uncertain due to inexperience or pure theorycraft:

So basically Mewtwo, like most heavies isn't a character that really beats characters so much as he beats players, but unlike them he doesn't lose fundamentally so much, or at least not as bad.

Updated Mewtwo chart.

And wait, can we crouch under something Mewtwo has?

Grab for fairly certain, possibly jab and Disable. It's also difficult to hit a grounded Kirby with a rising nair.

But again, the fact that Mewtwo's best spacing moves are the low-hitting dtilt and dsmash kind of makes the advantage moot.

And for the record, 45:55 pretty much means the match is still largely decided by the better player, but one character just has a tool or attribute that makes things slightly easier for them.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sonic runs rings around Kirby, and there's not much Kirby can do about it. Remember ESAM's video about Sonic? If you shield spindash, he ends up in the air, and you can attack him there, but... Kirby is so slow.

That and Sonic's standard hit n' run game does wonders against a character that can't really punish him for anything. We can stuff spindash with jab, but that's only if he comes right at the jab.

What if Kirby's ftilt beats spindash?

 

[Wintropy]

EDIT: Just got the memo after I posted this. I'll move it to the other matchup spread I posted the other day in case anybody wants to discuss it.

New Pit matchup spread.

Nu~ , what's your opinion on the Pit matchup? Been wondering about that for a bit.

 

[Vipermoon]

Jamurai I actually forgot about swordfighter. His Utilt and Dtilt are absolutely AMAZING. Not the best range on everything but he's definitely a contender if not the overall best in sword-tilts. MK doesn't have enough range (even for a "sword" character), area coverage, active frames, or damage to be among the best. His Dtilt is wonderful and everthing you said is true but like we've said, almost everyone has good tilts.

You got some data incorrect again; Marth's F-Tilt and U-Tilt are frame 37 and D-Tilt is 24 in terms of ending lag. Bit of miscalculations, but it's relevant, trust me.

Anyways, I'm just going to say that I npominate Link's tilts for among the best. Why?

F-Tilt: 13% damage, long range, arcs over Link's body, not laggy, has great reach and is one of the stronger F-Tilts in the game. It also provides a good gimping and edge-guarding option due to its wonderful range. Hits on frames 15-19 and ends frame 38.

U-Tilt: 9% damage, long range, arcs over Link's body, not laggy, can combo into itself or U-Smash and can KO very well. Hits on frames 8-12 and ends on frame 36.

D-Tilt: 11% damage, decent range, good shield poking capabilities due to its speed, great combo capabilities and meteors opponents who recover high. Hits on frames 11-12 and ends on frame 29.

Now going back to Marth's and Link's frame data comparison, they aren't much different in terms of their frame data, though there are some discrepancies. However, the real thing to look at in comparing them is not only their frame data, but what they can actually do with their tilts and how their tilts work. Link has two overhead anti-air tilts while Marth has only one overhead and one anti-air, but Link deals more damage overall, but Marth's is faster.

The thing is, is that the only significant difference is D-Tilt, as Marth's ends on frame 24 and Link's on 29, which is only 5 frames. People think to reason that Link's attacks are sluggish, when his tilts are almost on par with Marth's tilts in speed. Sure, there are some differences, but it's unbelievable that people really think Link's a sluggish attacker. In fact, pull up Kuroganehammer and compare the two.

The reason Link has "sluggish" attacks is because his attacks linger like no one's business. His D-Air starts on frame 14 and ends its hitboxes on frame 64; that's 50 frames, almost an entire second, of raw, pure hitbox. His U-Air starts on frame 11 and ends on 40, which is 29 frames of lingering hitboxes. His N-Air starts on frame 7 and ends on 31, that's 24 frames. I'm talking hitboxes here, and that's deceptively long in terms of hitboxes.

Heck, there are some attacks Link has that end faster and are less punishable than Marth's. D-Smash, N-Air, B-Air are examples of Link being less punishable.

Honestly, saying Link has "sluggish" attacks isn't something you should apply to him in this game. In previous games, yes he has sluggish attacks, but in this game, you got to acknowledge that Link's got better attacks than the previous game in terms of speed and power. Link's not too far from Marth's attack speed, and is definitely not too far from Ike's.

Also, going to say this now...
Little Mac's U-Tilt is pure garbage with its terrible reach and combo capabilities. I mean, what the heck are you supposed to follow up after that attack? I can possibly see a Rising Uppercut follow up or U-Air > U-Smash string somehow but those aren't likely possibilities.

Every time I will make a paragraph it's to reply to a different paragraph.

I did not get something about Marth wrong. FAF/IASA is not an end frame, it's the frame after the end frame. KH uses FAF so you have subtract 1 when you want the end frame. @Kurogane Hammer Your FAF on Lucina's/Marth's Ftilt should say 36. Thanks. Anyway, so that's end frame 35, 36, and 23 for Marth's tilts. Lol at "but it's relevant trust me."

Like Emblem Lord said, most characters have great tilts.

Ftilt is too slow. It's a great kill move (like a throw this out instead of Fsmash kind of thing) but frame 15 is pretty trashy. It's range is meh for a sword. Good thing it doesn't lag much.

Utilt is pretty good. Only okay range for a sword. It kills eventually and does great damage. Start-up is still fast.

Dtilt is slow and thanks to Link's slow jumpsquat and aerials, it can't really start combos. But whatever, it's useful in some situations.

Link and Marth movesets are not comparable in terms of frame data. The attributes and details of their movesets are too different. But in general Link has too much start-up across the board. Marth's Ftilt isn't anti-air? What world do you live in?

There is no such thing as "only 5 frames." 5 frames is enormous in this game. Link is still sluggish despite what you say. Plus he moves sluggishly so that sure doesn't make up for anything. I don't need to pull up KH because I basically have Link's normals memorized

Uh hu.

Yes, we all know Marth has a useless, unbalanced Dsmash.

That is false, most things about Link's frame data is carried over from Brawl. And then Brawl's was nerfed from Melee. Frame 5 Uair anyone? IASA 40 dash attack anyone?

Little Mac's Utilt is absolutely amazing! Wtf!? It's frame 5-10, ends on 29, does 9 PERCENT, has wonderful reach, and not much KB growth so it combos into Uspecial for a large percentage range.

 

[Radical Larry]

Here's my MU Chart for (And yes, the characters ARE in order)


Big Advantage (65:35)


Advantage (60:40 to 55:45)


Even (50:50)


Slight Disadvantage (45:55)


Disadvantage (40:60)


The way I see it, Link can hold his own if you know how to use him right. The reason I put Pac-Man in his advantage zone is because last night, I had quite a lot of matches with a few astonishingly amazing (tournament level) Pac-Man players on, believe it or not, For Glory. They really did a number on all my characters except Link, I couldn't even win with Ganondorf, but I managed to win with Link when I went 30% serious. Hydrants, Trampoline shenanigans, Fruit picking, combos, they had a great amount of that, but I still won using Link.

As for Link and Sheik being even, we have to remember that Sheik isn't the only character who has combo capabilities. Link does too, and I've even fought a Sheik player online (on With Friends), and he did the same thing to me with every character but Link. But I still struggled with Link, he struggled with Sheik, and it came to my conclusion that they would be more over a tie than anything else. I even went to a couple tournaments to fight against good Sheik players and found that Link can hold his own against her.

Link primarily has an advantage on characters with somewhat bad or predictable projectiles or characters who need to rush him down to do anything. He beats Mega Man because he actually shuts down Mega Man's projectiles and has to make Mega Man respect the Bomb, he beats every super heavy except for DK because of their size and weight, and he can kill characters like Doc, Kirby, Mewtwo, Lucario and Puff extremely, extremely early.

D3 is Link's best MU, because D3 is an extremely slow, extremely heavy and extremely sluggish attacker who's only projectile is literally beaten by Link's. D3 is combo food against Link, and has only one option to get out of combos, and that's N-Air. If D3 gets a grab on Link, he can get something going, if he can hit Link with D-Smash, he can KO Link well. But that's IF he can, because D3 is notorious for being the slowest character in overall stats (by this, I mean D3 is the slowest character in dexterity, which is his mobility, aerial mobility and attack speeds all combined; he's not the slowest runner, but if you combine all his stats, he is the slowest). Link on the other hand can just wail on him like no one's business, and I believe this is a solid 80:20 or 70:30 win for him. Link's got the speed, mobility, grab range and most importantly, range and size, all of which are better, compared to D3.

Also, Link doesn't have a projectile that is just shot back at him.

 

[Vipermoon]

Here's my MU Chart for

Biggest Advantage (80:20 to 70:30)


Big Advantage (65:35)


Advantage (60:40 to 55:45)


Even (50:50)


Slight Disadvantage (45:55)


Disadvantage (40:60)


The way I see it, Link can hold his own if you know how to use him right. The reason I put Pac-Man in his advantage zone is because last night, I had quite a lot of matches with a few astonishingly amazing (tournament level) Pac-Man players on, believe it or not, For Glory. They really did a number on all my characters except Link, I couldn't even win with Ganondorf, but I managed to win with Link when I went 30% serious. Hydrants, Trampoline shenanigans, Fruit picking, combos, they had a great amount of that, but I still won using Link.

As for Link and Sheik being even, we have to remember that Sheik isn't the only character who has combo capabilities. Link does too, and I've even fought a Sheik player online (on With Friends), and he did the same thing to me with every character but Link. But I still struggled with Link, he struggled with Sheik, and it came to my conclusion that they would be more over a tie than anything else. I even went to a couple tournaments to fight against good Sheik players and found that Link can hold his own against her.

Link primarily has an advantage on characters with somewhat bad or predictable projectiles or characters who need to rush him down to do anything. He beats Mega Man because he actually shuts down Mega Man's projectiles and has to make Mega Man respect the bomb, he beats every super heavy except for DK because of their size and weight, and he can kill characters like Doc, Kirby, Mewtwo, Lucario and Puff extremely, extremely early.

D3 is Link's best MU, because D3 is an extremely slow, extremely heavy and extremely sluggish attacker who's only projectile is literally beaten by Link's. D3 is combo food against Link, and has only one option to get out of combos, and that's N-Air. If D3 gets a grab on Link, he can get something going, if he can hit Link with D-Smash, he can KO Link well. But that's IF he can, because D3 is notorious for being the slowest character in overall stats (by this, I mean D3 is the slowest character in dexterity, which is his mobility, aerial mobility and attack speeds all combined; he's not the slowest runner, but if you combine all his stats, he is the slowest). Link on the other hand can just wail on him like no one's business, and I believe this is a solid 80:20 or 70:30 win for him. Link's got the speed, mobility, grab range and most importantly, range and size, all of which are better, compared to D3.

Also, Link doesn't have a projectile that is just shot back at him.

Link is even with Marth but has a Big Advantage against Lucina. Wow man, good stuff.

 

[DblCrest]

I might as well join in on "post your main's matchup spread"




47.5-52.5:

That's surprising... couldn't ROB just throw lazers and gyros to keep the Kirb at bay?
Also I think you missed out Marth (Unless the match up is more or less the same with Lucina)

You're telling me that Kirby only has two or three matchups in which he actually has a slight disadvantage or more? You do realise only top tiers have a matchup spread this good, right? Don't kid yourself.

For starters, MK destroys Kirby, both in theory and in practice.

Is that the only Kirby vs Metaknight match we have at high level play to use?
I'd like to see some more if it really is unwinnable.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link is even with Marth but has a Big Advantage against Lucina. Wow man, good stuff.

To justify, Lucina has worse range and power than Marth does, despite the same speed of their attacks. Range and power do matter, and so does KB. Doesn't Lucina have slightly altered KB due to her attacks being balanced through the entire blade?

 

[Nobie]

Here's my MU Chart for

Biggest Advantage (80:20 to 70:30)


Big Advantage (65:35)


Advantage (60:40 to 55:45)


Even (50:50)


Slight Disadvantage (45:55)


Disadvantage (40:60)


The way I see it, Link can hold his own if you know how to use him right. The reason I put Pac-Man in his advantage zone is because last night, I had quite a lot of matches with a few astonishingly amazing (tournament level) Pac-Man players on, believe it or not, For Glory. They really did a number on all my characters except Link, I couldn't even win with Ganondorf, but I managed to win with Link when I went 30% serious. Hydrants, Trampoline shenanigans, Fruit picking, combos, they had a great amount of that, but I still won using Link.

As for Link and Sheik being even, we have to remember that Sheik isn't the only character who has combo capabilities. Link does too, and I've even fought a Sheik player online (on With Friends), and he did the same thing to me with every character but Link. But I still struggled with Link, he struggled with Sheik, and it came to my conclusion that they would be more over a tie than anything else. I even went to a couple tournaments to fight against good Sheik players and found that Link can hold his own against her.

Link primarily has an advantage on characters with somewhat bad or predictable projectiles or characters who need to rush him down to do anything. He beats Mega Man because he actually shuts down Mega Man's projectiles and has to make Mega Man respect the bomb, he beats every super heavy except for DK because of their size and weight, and he can kill characters like Doc, Kirby, Mewtwo, Lucario and Puff extremely, extremely early.

D3 is Link's best MU, because D3 is an extremely slow, extremely heavy and extremely sluggish attacker who's only projectile is literally beaten by Link's. D3 is combo food against Link, and has only one option to get out of combos, and that's N-Air. If D3 gets a grab on Link, he can get something going, if he can hit Link with D-Smash, he can KO Link well. But that's IF he can, because D3 is notorious for being the slowest character in overall stats (by this, I mean D3 is the slowest character in dexterity, which is his mobility, aerial mobility and attack speeds all combined; he's not the slowest runner, but if you combine all his stats, he is the slowest). Link on the other hand can just wail on him like no one's business, and I believe this is a solid 80:20 or 70:30 win for him. Link's got the speed, mobility, grab range and most importantly, range and size, all of which are better, compared to D3.

Also, Link doesn't have a projectile that is just shot back at him.

No way Link has 80:20 matchups, that is absurd.

Also you talk as if Link's projectiles neutralize Mega Man's game when I believe it to be quite the opposite.

 

[Vipermoon]

To justify, Lucina has worse range and power than Marth does, despite the same speed of their attacks. Range and power do matter, and so does KB. Doesn't Lucina have slightly altered KB due to her attacks being balanced through the entire blade?

In most cases she has the same MUs as Marth.

There's not really a range difference. Yes, generally speaking, Lucina's KB values are in between Marth's tipper and non tipper KB values.

 

[Radical Larry]

In most cases she has the same MUs as Marth.

There's not really a range difference. Yes, generally speaking, Lucina's KB values are in between Marth's tipper and non tipper KB values.

She has better KO capabilities, but she has worse combo capabilities since that's the case. Tipper Marth wouldn't combo as reliably as non tipper Marth, and going between that makes it to where Lucina won't combo as reliably as non-tipper Marth. But she does have good KO properties.

But I do know there are range differences between Marth and Lucina, as their Falchions aren't the same length (that and their bodies aren't the same height; Lucina's a bit shorter framed, but it's not as noticeable in gameplay).

No way Link has 80:20 matchups, that is absurd.

Also you talk as if Link's projectiles neutralize Mega Man's game when I believe it to be quite the opposite.

D3 is probably the closest Link has to an 80:20 MU. D3 is someone that should NEVER go against Link due to the sheer things Link can do to him. Link has basically everything that D3 doesn't have, but on the flip side, D3 can do some combos and damage to Link, but it'd take a bad Link player to not try to get out of the attacks or even dodge D3, because again, the latter is very, very slow.

 

[Jamurai]

Wait, his list shows that Kirby has 20+ slightly disadvantageous or worse match-ups.

What's the standards for a top tier match-up, spread, exactly?

I have always known 40:60 to mean "slightly disadvantageous", it's meant that since Brawl (which is when I got into Smash). To me, 45:55 means the opponent has a couple of things which are kind of annoying but nothing which skews the matchup; it's basically even. In the phrase "more or less even", 45:55 is "less" and 55:45 is "more".

Top tiers have up to a couple of disadvantageous matchups, a fair few even ones and beat a majority of the cast.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Big Advantage (65:35)

This "post your character's matchup spread"-thing is REALLY getting out of hand.

 

[|RK|]

What if Kirby's ftilt beats spindash?

It does. But still.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Sooo guys. I actually wanted to discuss something. Why can't you trust Eventhubs Tier List? It's actually an explanation for a friend of mine that blindly trusts Smash 4 Eventhubs list and he doesn't even have the game anymore. Soo I would like you to explain in a good post:

Why does Eventhubs Tier List Smash 4 list suck ass?

 

[Wintropy]

I have always known 40:60 to mean "slightly disadvantageous", it's meant that since Brawl (which is when I got into Smash). To me, 45:55 means the opponent has a couple of things which are kind of annoying but nothing which skews the matchup; it's basically even. In the phrase "more or less even", 45:55 is "less" and 55:45 is "more".

Top tiers have up to a couple of disadvantageous matchups, a fair few even ones and beat a majority of the cast.

Pretty much how I define it. My interpretation has always been that 55:45 is a slight advantage, but otherwise even, just that one side has a few options that make it easier for them; 60:40 is a significant advantage, but very winnable even for the disadvantaged side; 70:30 is a very significant advantage, very difficult for the disadvantaged side; 80:20 and beyond is virtually unwinnable.

For reference, I equate +1 to refer to a result between 55:45 and 60:40, and -1 to refer to a result between 45:55 and 40:60. Anything beyond is severe advantage / disadvantage.

Even so, it's basically semantics. I don't know if there's a unified definition of how matchup results go, but that's how I distinguish it.

Sooo guys. I actually wanted to discuss something. Why can't you trust Eventhubs Tier List? It's actually an explanation for a friend of mine that blindly trusts Smash 4 Eventhubs list and he doesn't even have the game anymore. Soo I would like you to explain in a good post:

Why does Eventhubs Tier List Smash 4 list suck ***?

It's community-voted rather than based on results and matchups.

It's a popularity contest or a tier list based on who people think is the best, rather than an empirical study of character viability.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Sooo guys. I actually wanted to discuss something. Why can't you trust Eventhubs Tier List? It's actually an explanation for a friend of mine that blindly trusts Smash 4 Eventhubs list and he doesn't even have the game anymore. Soo I would like you to explain in a good post:

Why does Eventhubs Tier List Smash 4 list suck ***?

Wario in bottom tier and Pac-Man in low tier

 

[Nu~]

Here's my MU Chart for (And yes, the characters ARE in order)
Advantage (60:40 to 55:45)


Even(50:50)

FG and online with friends

Good ol' Larry is back.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's my MU Chart for

Biggest Advantage (80:20 to 70:30)


Big Advantage (65:35)


Advantage (60:40 to 55:45)


Even (50:50)


Slight Disadvantage (45:55)


Disadvantage (40:60)


The way I see it, Link can hold his own if you know how to use him right. The reason I put Pac-Man in his advantage zone is because last night, I had quite a lot of matches with a few astonishingly amazing (tournament level) Pac-Man players on, believe it or not, For Glory. They really did a number on all my characters except Link, I couldn't even win with Ganondorf, but I managed to win with Link when I went 30% serious. Hydrants, Trampoline shenanigans, Fruit picking, combos, they had a great amount of that, but I still won using Link.

As for Link and Sheik being even, we have to remember that Sheik isn't the only character who has combo capabilities. Link does too, and I've even fought a Sheik player online (on With Friends), and he did the same thing to me with every character but Link. But I still struggled with Link, he struggled with Sheik, and it came to my conclusion that they would be more over a tie than anything else. I even went to a couple tournaments to fight against good Sheik players and found that Link can hold his own against her.

Link primarily has an advantage on characters with somewhat bad or predictable projectiles or characters who need to rush him down to do anything. He beats Mega Man because he actually shuts down Mega Man's projectiles and has to make Mega Man respect the bomb, he beats every super heavy except for DK because of their size and weight, and he can kill characters like Doc, Kirby, Mewtwo, Lucario and Puff extremely, extremely early.

D3 is Link's best MU, because D3 is an extremely slow, extremely heavy and extremely sluggish attacker who's only projectile is literally beaten by Link's. D3 is combo food against Link, and has only one option to get out of combos, and that's N-Air. If D3 gets a grab on Link, he can get something going, if he can hit Link with D-Smash, he can KO Link well. But that's IF he can, because D3 is notorious for being the slowest character in overall stats (by this, I mean D3 is the slowest character in dexterity, which is his mobility, aerial mobility and attack speeds all combined; he's not the slowest runner, but if you combine all his stats, he is the slowest). Link on the other hand can just wail on him like no one's business, and I believe this is a solid 80:20 or 70:30 win for him. Link's got the speed, mobility, grab range and most importantly, range and size, all of which are better, compared to D3.

Also, Link doesn't have a projectile that is just shot back at him.

I will assert to you that Link doesn't have anything near an 80:20 in general as Nobie said, particularly against Dedede.

Source: Playing a whole lot of matches against @shrooby 's D3
IMO Link's best MUs are 60:40 in his favor, and even then I'd only give those to a few characters, and come to mind specifically, but I could be biased in that regard.

The major issue I have with your projections is your call that is 65:35 . I've played the life out of that MU and that MU is even as can be.

I'm fairly busy so I'll give the tl;dr version of my reasoning:

Link's mid-range and projectile game provides much better constant pressure and mobility, Bombs invalidate/go right through everything of Robin's that isn't Thoron and it's not terribly difficult for Link to pin Robin in a corner if a Robin is trying to outcamp Link.

Robin's recovery is also pretty free to mess with offstage as long as you're not dumb and jump into the hand spike hitbox.

Among some other things.

THAT SAID, Robin's aerial set, particularly with the Levin Sword, is all around more flexible and less commitment-heavy than Link's, and it's very easy for Robin to juggle Link with Uair or carry him across the stage with Fair for a few days.

Link can SDI and jump out of both Arcfire and Robin's Elwind Jab, however Robin can still use Arcfire as a decent tool for setting traps, particularly at the ledge as well as having the Arcfire Gentleman as a more consistent option with Jab.

Robin also gets a lot of mileage off D-Throw setups at low percent since they combo into Jab as well combining well with Arcthunder and Nosferatu options; at kill percents Robin has a fairly easy true D-Throw -> Uair as well.

And offstage Robin has the Nairplane to gimp Link pretty handily because it semi-spikes, and it's quite easy for Robin to chain a few Nairs together to carry Link all the way offstage and still be able to make it back.

Robin's discarded tomes and Levin Sword are an additional factor since they can be used for setups and other things and the tomes in particular hit for like 14%.

Source: Playing @Raziek and a whole lot of other Robin players.

 

[bc1910]

So pacman can't lose to only three characters, but greninja can...

When they are both around the same place on the tier list...
Wut

To be fair, we accept Sheik as a -2 whilst you didn't do the same for Rosalina. And I guess it just seems unlikely for a character like Pac-Man, who DOES have top level representation (Abadango) but NOT top level results, to have such a good MU spread. Some problem MUs that could be disadvantageous were noted and there were maybe a few too many advantages too.

On Greninja, I think he has 4 to 6 losing MUs (Sheik, Sonic, Fox and Wario, possibly Toon Link and Lucario) but that's still not a lot for a supposed low high tier. So how can his spread be so good?

Recently in this thread, Mario, Peach, Pac-Man and now Yoshi players have suggested they lose to varying degrees. Ryu, Pit and Ike have been listed as even. Not so recently, I know plenty of Luigi and MK mains think they lose.

We've just had ZSS mains visit our MU thread (see this page) saying they think Greninja beats ZSS. This is NOT pro-Greninja bias; I actually argued against it. For those of you waving pitchforks at me I strongly suggest you read our discussion but the tl;dr is that it plays out a bit like the Sheik MU except Greninja is heavier, kills more easily and can Shadow Sneak out of Boost Kick.

Little pieces of information from other players build toward the same conclusion; Greninja is pretty damn good now. He suffers more from a lack of representation than anything else. You can see his MU spread and think "no way, that must be too good" but when you try to name another character he loses to, it gets tricky. Many high/top tier mains have said that Greninja goes even with or beats their character.

So I think people can accept a good MU spread for Greninja because people are starting to accept that this character is genuinely very good now.

 

[Blobface]

If we're trying to sum up our characters matchup spread it'd be a lot better to just say what kind of things your character does well against and what kind of things they don't do well against. Numbers are arbitrary and extremely prone to biases. Character strengths and weaknesses (mostly) aren't.

So, in order of importance
Ganon does well against:

• Characters with short range and/or poor midrange options, since it's much easier for Ganon to maintain his ideal spacing against them.
• Characters he gets more reward against: poor disadvantage options, easy to hit recoveries, getting hit hard by Flame Choke (I.E. Olimar), or light weight. The more reward he gets compared to the other character, the better it is for him.
• Characters that don't apply enough pressure to abuse his CQC.

Ganon does badly against:

• ...literally the opposite of everything he does well against.

 

[Radical Larry]

This "post your character's matchup spread"-thing is REALLY getting out of hand.

Well, all you needed to do was ask for their positions changed~
I'm certainly one to oblige.

Good ol' Larry is back.

You actually don't know how good these players actually were. If you play For Glory early in the morning, you will find some phenomenal players that make you scratch your head as to why they don't appear in the day. Among these was a person known as Mr. Casual, and he was just one of the best Pac-Mans I've ever played (professional tournament level is what I can label him).

@The Soulless One
I will say that Link's MU chart will just be changed then to be more accurate.

 

[Nu~]

To be fair, we accept Sheik as a -2 whilst you didn't do the same for Rosalina. And I guess it just seems unlikely for a character like Pac-Man, who DOES have top level representation (Abadango) but NOT top level results, to have such a good MU spread. Some problem MUs that could be disadvantageous were noted and there were maybe a few too many advantages too.

On Greninja, I think he has 4 to 6 losing MUs (Sheik, Sonic, Fox and Wario, possibly Toon Link and Lucario) but that's still not a lot for a supposed low high tier. So how can his spread be so good?

Recently in this thread, Mario, Peach, Pac-Man and now Yoshi players have suggested they lose to varying degrees. Ryu, Pit and Ike have been listed as even. Not so recently, I know plenty of Luigi and MK mains think they lose.

We've just had ZSS mains visit our MU thread (see this page) saying they think Greninja beats ZSS. This is NOT pro-Greninja bias; I actually argued against it. For those of you waving pitchforks at me I strongly suggest you read our discussion but the tl;dr is that it plays out a bit like the Sheik MU except Greninja is heavier, kills more easily and can Shadow Sneak out of Boost Kick.

Little pieces of information from other players build toward the same conclusion; Greninja is pretty damn good now. He suffers more from a lack of representation than anything else. You can see his MU spread and think "no way, that must be too good" but when you try to name another character he loses to, it gets tricky. Many high/top tier mains have said that Greninja goes even with or beats their character.

So I think people can accept a good MU spread for Greninja because people are starting to accept that this character is genuinely very good now.

I agree with your post, more people are finally coming around to the idea that Greninja is a good character,

but rosa isn't a -2 for us GP isn't big enough of a factor to make it that hard.
I can continue to explain how pellet healing off of GP and mid range zoning makes the matchup a lot better for us, than what was thought of initially, but I don't want to start an argument out of something that wasn't really intended to be one in your post.

 

[Vipermoon]

She has better KO capabilities, but she has worse combo capabilities since that's the case. Tipper Marth wouldn't combo as reliably as non tipper Marth, and going between that makes it to where Lucina won't combo as reliably as non-tipper Marth. But she does have good KO properties.

But I do know there are range differences between Marth and Lucina, as their Falchions aren't the same length (that and their bodies aren't the same height; Lucina's a bit shorter framed, but it's not as noticeable in gameplay).

Don't make generalizations like this. Knockback = hitstun so you can't say one character combos better than the other. Only that one character has stuff that combos sooner and later while the other has stuff in between. Also KO capabilities is one of the major reasons for Marth's dominance so you can't say the opposite.

Mastercore is proof. Their hitboxes are in the same locations with respect to their character frames. They are also the same size. Their swords are animations so that doesn't matter (and you have no idea which sword is longer or if they are the same so don't make baseless claims).

Also I hate this topic because there are people who make baseless generalizations like what you did so please don't reply to this because I'm done with M vs L. I'm not replying to any furthers posts about this.