Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

Greninja vs Pac is either even or Greninja has a slight edge. Before Pac-Man could punish Greninja hitting his shield with OoS N-Air, not anymore and now he struggles more to deal with Greninja when he's in his face and Greninja's mobility makes it very easy for him to get close. Plus Greninja can severely mess with his recovery

Pac still has a strong zoning game though and his frame data is very good too. But his problems with sealing kills might make the MU difficult to him considering Greninja meanwhile has a pretty high number of kill setups and now can hit his shield pretty safely. I want to say Greninja wins now.

 

[Nu~]

Not that I will surprise you but I think you overrate Pac-Mans matchups by a good bit.

Explain then.

Greninja vs Pac is either even or Greninja has a slight edge. Before Pac-Man could punish Greninja hitting his shield with OoS N-Air, not anymore and sk he struggles more to deal with Greninja when he's in his face and Greninja's mobility makes it very easy for him to get close. Plus Greninja can severely mess with his recovery

Pac still has a strong zoning game though and his frame data is very good too. But his problems with sealing kills might make the MU difficult to him considering Greninja meanwhile has a pretty high number of kill setups and now can hit his shield pretty safely. I want to say Greninja wins now.

Agreed. Greninja pressures us that much harder than before the patch.

We have many kill setups...too bad that most of them are highly situational. A good deal of our early KOs are from ledgeguarding. Greninja hydro pumps over them.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Nobie got it, but I will reiterate. Both G&W and Mewtwo do fine in neutral and Ryu basically loses hadouken in this match which is a solid mid range poke for him.

Not to be harshly critical or anything, but doesn't Ryu have advantage in footsies against them both (Mewtwo not having a single attack coming out earlier than frame 6 when Ryu's light Dtilt comes out on frame 2 and G&W's Jab being unsafe on hit and his other ground moves having small hitboxes (or at least his Utilt) and being unsafe on block)? I think that's a reasonable catalyst for him besting them in neutral.

 

[warionumbah2]

Still baffled that pacman only loses to 3 characters.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Here are the results of the /r/smashbros voted tier list. There were about 940 votes. Direct Link.
Link to thread.

S = Best For Tournament Play, A = Solo Tournament Viable, B = Tournament Viable With Secondaries, C= Niche Use, D = Not Tournament Viable, F = Never Use

Results:

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:
D+:

I like it. The only things I'm really opposed to are putting Falcon above B+, Roy in B+, Gunner that low, and Marth above Jr. I'm also opposed to that Ryu placing; in my opinion Ryu should be grouped with the B+ crew such as Wario/Peach/ROB/the Pits or be in A- with Villager and MK. Mario that high was clearly influenced by Anti vs. ZeRo. That set alone has changed a lot of peoples' views of the character.

 

[Nu~]

Still baffled that pacman only loses to 3 characters.

Well 4, but your point still stands.

He probably loses to more, but that's why I posted it. I want to hear from the people.

@everyone
Who does he also lose to and why?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Explain then.

Just look at the overall spread you posted. Only 3 or 4 disadvantaged matchups, all of them slight. Even matchups against 3-4 top tiers and wins against 2 top tiers [Diddy and Ryu] and numerous high[ish] tiers [Villager, Falcon, Ness]. That's an insanely good matchup spread that'd suit a top 5 character. Except you posted it for an absolute non-top tier character and most of that is the result of theorycraft because Pac-Man doesn't even have the result or the rep to back up any of these claims.

Specifically:
- At this point in the metagame any claims of a non-high tier character going even with ZSS are pretty much impossible to back up. Pac-Man's bread and butter doesn't hold a candle to ZSS' murderous offense and she's way too mobile to really have to deal with any of his gimmicks.
- Pac-Man beating ROB is a strictly personal opinion of yours that not even the Pac-Man community itself will agree on.
- The whole "trampoline covers characters with good ground mobility" argument is false and neither does it make the Fox/Sonic matchups even nor does it make Pac-Man beat Falcon.
- Why do Diddy and Villager lose to Pac-Man again? Zero relevant results and both characters are rightfully considered better than Pac-Man so you need a damn convincing reason if you want anybody to buy it.

So imo a more realistic spread would be like this:

- 1 against Sheik, Rosalina, Wario, ZSS
- 0.5 [here I go again!] against Sonic, Fox, Greninja, ROB, Mario
+ 0 against Diddy, Falcon, Villager, Yoshi, Sword dudes except Roy, G&W, Pikachu
+ 0.5 against Doc, DK, Link, DHD, Roy

Most other characters are probably somewhere within -0.5 and +0.5 except clear advantages like Little Mac, Ganondorf or Luigi. Note that this is still a damn good spread, yours is just absurdly good and totally doesn't make a lot of sense for a character like Pac-Man

 

[BSP]

I back mostly everything Gheb said w.r.t. Pac-Man's losing MUs except that I'm not sure ZSS is flat out minus 1 and he forgot to throw Lucario into the minus 2. Falcon is a minus 1 IMO.

I could see him beating diddy, but the MU hasn't happened in high level recently. I played MVD in friendlies and if he's still considered relevant, I beat him pretty solidly. Pac-Man is pretty good at ignoring daddy's general game plan.

Oh and if you're doing .5's, Rosalina should be in the minus .5 group.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah, I agree with Gheb too.

BSP Why would you call lucario a minus 2? There is a lot more to take account of in the matchup than just aura. We win nuetral pretty hard and pellet + z drop fruit ignore lucario's aura sphere spacing.

if we need a kill, ledge traps and edge guarding do the job pretty well. Even if it does happen pretty late...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not to be harshly critical or anything, but doesn't Ryu have advantage in footsies against them both (Mewtwo not having a single attack coming out earlier than frame 6 when Ryu's light Dtilt comes out on frame 2 and G&W's Jab being unsafe on hit and his other ground moves having small hitboxes (or at least his Utilt) and being unsafe on block)? I think that's a reasonable catalyst for him besting them in neutral.

Footsies is about buttons, mobility and safety. G&W has the disjoints. Mewtwo has the range and overall safety. Yes Ryu is safer and hits harder. He MIGHT beat them harder, especially since I'm working on some things that could really change his matches vs chars that rely on aerial pokes to play footsies. He def punishes whiffs harder then they do.

Guys this is my first attempt, please don't castrate me. As I learn more and analyze more my opinions will change.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Alright, I'll throw my hat in the ring.

Matchup chart


(Massive advantage)


(Advantage)


(Slight Advantage)


(Even)

(Haven't fought one after the patch though, may have became disadvantageous)

(Slight Disadvantage)

(May be even however since DA is completely safe on his shield and leads into a kill setup at 50-80%. Only thing we really don't like here is bite)


Feel free to eat me alive with your comments. I'm a bit unsure of some characters myself (greninja, zss, wario, robin, WFT, and shulk)

Dat Mewtwo matchup tho

 

[Jamurai]

Here are the results of the /r/smashbros voted tier list. There were about 940 votes. Direct Link.
Link to thread.

S = Best For Tournament Play, A = Solo Tournament Viable, B = Tournament Viable With Secondaries, C= Niche Use, D = Not Tournament Viable, F = Never Use

Results:

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:
D+:

In my opinion...

Too high: (3 spots or more)


Too low: (3 spots or more)


I have no idea about Mii Brawler since I don't know if this is customs on or off, but either way he belongs either higher up (customs on) or in bottom 5 (customs off). I saw your post on Reddit and that you say you can't think of a reason why Miis should be left out; I have no idea why Gunner and Swordy are that low because they aren't even so without customs. No one knows what's happening with Miis and they're evidently confusing people, so they should be left out imo. There isn't a general consensus on whether they should be legal and if so, how, anyway.

EDIT: Nu~ , @Katakiri who mains MK and has Pac secondary believes MK beats Pac quite convincingly. I think he said we have little trouble getting past your wall and obviously once we're in we can do our thing. DCape is a great tool in the matchup for us. Also our safe Fsmash knocks away hydrant by itself.

 

[FullMoon]

Let me jump on this bandwagon:



-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:

I dunno:

Would go into more detail but I'm stuck on my phone right now. I probably missed someone here.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Does anybody know how to beat sheik's Fair? I've only known to grab if she whiffs with it rising, but if she trys to do it late, I'm lost.

 

[BJN39]

Let me jump on this bandwagon:



-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:

I dunno:

Would go into more detail but I'm stuck on my phone right now. I probably missed someone here.

Tfw Zelda is so competitively irrelevant she isn't included in MU spreads.


Not even in "I dunno"

 

[meleebrawler]

Not to be harshly critical or anything, but doesn't Ryu have advantage in footsies against them both (Mewtwo not having a single attack coming out earlier than frame 6 when Ryu's light Dtilt comes out on frame 2 and G&W's Jab being unsafe on hit and his other ground moves having small hitboxes (or at least his Utilt) and being unsafe on block)? I think that's a reasonable catalyst for him besting them in neutral.

I'm not sure about G&W, but Mewtwo taking hadouken out of the picture in neutral means he places the burden of approaching entirely on Ryu. Light dtilt doesn't have the best range to use in neutral so Ryu generally only uses it to apply pressure once he's already managed to approach successfully. Mewtwo outspeeds Ryu in general allowing him to keep his distance from Ryu's fast and dangerous footsies, making himself a difficult target for shoryuken kills in the process. Of course Ryu is no slouch at spacing himself so it's still a close fight.

Also, I think Mewtwo's low traction helps him avoid shield pressure following Ryu's aerials, so he can do that if he can't space them out.

 

[FullMoon]

Tfw Zelda is so competitively irrelevant she isn't included in MU spreads.


Not even in "I dunno"

Of course I would miss her of all characters lol

 

[Nu~]

So pacman can't lose to only three characters, but greninja can...

When they are both around the same place on the tier list...
Wut

 

[Skeeter Mania]

0:

I'm curious as to why you think Yoshi is even. I think he loses slightly.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm curious as to why you think Yoshi is even. I think he loses slightly.

Yoshi or Greninja?

So pacman can't lose to only three characters, but greninja can...

When they are both around the same place on the tier list...
Wut

Tbh he might lose to Wario and Olimar too but I have very little experience with those too.

Nobody really agreed with my MU chart either lol

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Yoshi or Greninja?

Yoshi.

 

[Nu~]

EDIT: Nu~ Katakiri who mains MK and has Pac secondary believes MK beats Pac quite convincingly. I think he said we have little trouble getting past your wall and obviously once we're in we can do our thing. DCape is a great tool in the matchup for us. Also our safe Fsmash knocks away hydrant by itself.

Don't see how Dcape is great in the matchup when trampoline pulls you out of it. And fsmash isn't a great tool to knock the hydrant away unless you and the hydrant are far away from us. Due to the high amount of hitlag that the move has, we can punish you with a fruit as soon as you hit the hydrant, or we can recognize the noticeable startup and hit the hydrant first.

He doesn't straight up lose to fruit and hydrant zoning like the heavies, but he does have trouble getting past our stationary walls (trampoline and hydrant) without having to stay airborne.

It's harder for him to get things going in the matchup since his key tools in nuetral (DA, dtilt, and grab) are harder to land

 

[Peppermint1201]

I might as well join in on "post your main's matchup spread"



30-70:

40-60:

45-55:

47.5-52.5:

50-50:

52.5-47.5:

55-45:

57.5-42.5:

60-40:

70-30:


Not sure:

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

(Advantage)

Please explain. I don't see how this is a hard matchup for Palutena. I've fought some good Pac-Man players in the past and it didn't feel difficult, seemed even. She can deal with his shenanigans. Reflect, F-air/B-air, DA and U-tilt are pretty effective against him.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I might as well join in on "post your main's matchup spread"



30-70:

40-60:

45-55:

47.5-52.5:

50-50:

52.5-47.5:

55-45:

57.5-42.5:

60-40:

70-30:


Not sure:

I'm kinda new to this site. How do you type character Icons like those?

 

[Peppermint1201]

I'm kinda new to this site. How do you type character Icons like those?

In the box where you type in your post, press the button with a smiley face on it.

 

[Y2Kay]

Will charizard ever make it out of C tier on reddits tier lists? C'mon guys, You'll need a secondary, but he's tourney viable!
I swear, I might just have to put him in my main squad and prove he's pretty solid......


100th comment hype!

 

[Wintermelon43]

Matchup Chart

30:60:

35:65:None

40:60: (Possibly )

45:55 (Possibly)

50:50:(maybe, probably not)

55:45:(Most Likely)

60:40:

Notes:
*Never played aganist a Mii, those were just guesses
*Customs off, including miis. Mii Brawler and Palutena would be 40:60 customs on. Other matchups are better for Kirby though with customs so it's okay. IDK what Mii Gunner and Mii Swordfighter would be with all customs.

 

[Y2Kay]

Matchup Chart

30:60:

35:65:None

40:60: (Possibly )

45:55 (Possibly)

50:50:(maybe, probably not)

55:45:(Most Likely)

60:40:

Notes:
*Never played aganist a Mii, those were just guesses
*Customs off, including miis. Mii Brawler and Palutena would be 40:60 customs on. Other matchups are better for Kirby though with customs so it's okay. IDK what Mii Gunner and Mii Swordfighter would be with all customs.

How mayn sheiks are there? Also, The mewtwo match up couldn't possibly be that bad

 

[meleebrawler]

How mayn sheiks are there? Also, The mewtwo match up couldn't possibly be that bad

Too many times a Kirby enthusiast seems to think crouching solves everything just because it can dodge some moves other crouches can't...

 

[Skeeter Mania]

In the box where you type in your post, press the button with a smiley face on it.

Thank you!

BTW, is there a list of formats for linking to a video, mentioning somebody, etc., like Reddit has?

Wintermelon43 , I'm curious as to why you think Yoshi is practically unwinnable for Kirby. Does he just do that well against light, floaty characters?

 

[kaz99]

Here are the results of the /r/smashbros voted tier list. There were about 940 votes. Direct Link.
Link to thread.

S = Best For Tournament Play, A = Solo Tournament Viable, B = Tournament Viable With Secondaries, C= Niche Use, D = Not Tournament Viable, F = Never Use

Results:

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:
D+:

Still overrating Roy and Lucas I see. Never change reddit, never change

 

[meleebrawler]

Wintermelon43 , I'm curious as to why you think Yoshi is practically unwinnable for Kirby. Does he just do that well against light, floaty characters?

It's more that Yoshi is just so incredibly fast in the air while Kirby is so incredibly slow. Most characters can combat this disadvantage by spacing Yoshi out when he tries to attack but Kirby can't even do that well with his short range.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Too many times a Kirby enthusiast seems to think crouching solves everything just because it can dodge some moves other crouches can't...

That's not even why she is even lol.

Here's an anyllsis I made on the matchup:

Pros:

• Inhale ability
• Our throw combos, for some reason, work perefectly aganist Sheik (ESPICIALLY forward throw), which makes it easy to combo her back. And all combos are effective too, MAYBE, NOT SURE ON THIS NEXT FEW WORDS, espicially since it isn't that easy for Sheik to get out of combos.
• Our light weight makes it hard for Sheik to use muitiple forward airs at us at mid-high percents (At high percents it KOs)
• Forward Smash is extra good due to both the way Sheik's attacks work, and her fast falling speed.

Cons:

• Sheik's bounching fish can gimp you, but it's barely a problem.
• Sheik's huge amount of speed, and fast attacks, are a HUGE problem, and is why this matchup isn't in our favor.
• It's not that easy to down-air spike Sheik due to her speed and the way her recovery works.

Inhale: Defitenly do it. Needle is one of Sheik's best moves, so it helps to use it back.

Customs:

Neutral Special:Jumping Inhale. Jumping Inhale makes it WAY easier to inhale her, and we need the inhale

Side Special:Un-Chargeable Hammer. Startup is EXTREMELY important in this matchup, due to Sheik's low start- wait, what Start-up?

Up Special:Always wave Cutter.(Up-Special-3), comboing is great for Sheik, a great finisher is very effective. and it makes it possible (but hard) to punish Sheik.

Down Special:Down Special is useless, do anything. Default even works due to high knockback.

Stage Picks: Always do battle field. Sheik is worst at Battlefield than other stages. Lylat Cruise can be useful too, to annoy her recovery.

Additional Notes: Sheik can easily punish us for whiffs, so be careful when you attack.

Also This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oItSpkKI4_E (Kirby won the first round, second and third rounds were time-outs, MikeKirby may have won both of the timer was longer) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck87fsfxkYI

Matchup Ratio:50:50

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Still overrating Roy and Lucas I see. Never change reddit, never change

It's good to pay attention to results, but I swear this sub takes it WAY too far. I cannot see how Mario is Top 5, Ike is below Roy, Lucas is above Mega Man, and so on.

 

[Nu~]

Please explain. I don't see how this is a hard matchup for Palutena. I've fought some good Pac-Man players in the past and it didn't feel difficult, seemed even. She can deal with his shenanigans. Reflect, F-air/B-air, DA and U-tilt are pretty effective against him.

Reflect is trivial in the matchup because we can pellet heal off of any reflected fruit that isn't key or galaxian. We can actually walk up and pellet heal off of the reflector itself. Hell, Apple, bell, and hydrants can fly over it. Counter is much more effective for dealing with our zoning, but even then, it can't be relied on .

I don't see how being able to land F-air/B-air, DA and U-tilt is exclusive to the pacman matchup. Our frame data is much better than yours, we win in CQC, and our traps work just fine on her.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It's more that Yoshi is just so incredibly fast in the air while Kirby is so incredibly slow. Most characters can combat this disadvantage by spacing Yoshi out when he tries to attack but Kirby can't even do that well with his short range.

Does Yoshi really have any other MUS lIke this that are that lopsided?

 

[KirbySquad101]

Matchup Chart

50:50:

Plz stahp

I would move Fox to around 50:50 actually, and move Luigi down to 45:55 or 40:60; yes, Luigi can't kill out of his throws, but Fireballs still crap on us and he pretty much still wins any trade-off, along with being hard as **** to combo. Ike, I would also move down to 40:60; he has too many tools to take us on (Eruption, disjointed range, insane damage output and kill power).

Also not sure on the Lucairio matchup, either.

That's not even why she is even lol.

Here's an anyllsis I made on the matchup:

Pros:

• Inhale ability
• Our throw combos, for some reason, work perefectly aganist Sheik (ESPICIALLY forward throw), which makes it easy to combo her back. And all combos are effective too, MAYBE, NOT SURE ON THIS NEXT FEW WORDS, espicially since it isn't that easy for Sheik to get out of combos.
• Our light weight makes it hard for Sheik to use muitiple forward airs at us at mid-high percents (At high percents it KOs)
• Forward Smash is extra good due to both the way Sheik's attacks work, and her fast falling speed.

Cons:

• Sheik's bounching fish can gimp you, but it's barely a problem.
• Sheik's huge amount of speed, and fast attacks, are a HUGE problem, and is why this matchup isn't in our favor.
• It's not that easy to down-air spike Sheik due to her speed and the way her recovery works.

Inhale: Defitenly do it. Needle is one of Sheik's best moves, so it helps to use it back.

Customs:

Neutral Special:Jumping Inhale. Jumping Inhale makes it WAY easier to inhale her, and we need the inhale

Side Special:Un-Chargeable Hammer. Startup is EXTREMELY important in this matchup, due to Sheik's low start- wait, what Start-up?

Up Special:Always wave Cutter.(Up-Special-3), comboing is great for Sheik, a great finisher is very effective. and it makes it possible (but hard) to punish Sheik.

Down Special:Down Special is useless, do anything. Default even works due to high knockback.

Stage Picks: Always do battle field. Sheik is worst at Battlefield than other stages. Lylat Cruise can be useful too, to annoy her recovery.

Additional Notes: Sheik can easily punish us for whiffs, so be careful when you attack.

Also This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oItSpkKI4_E (Kirby won the first round, second and third rounds were time-outs, MikeKirby may have won both of the timer was longer) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck87fsfxkYI

Matchup Ratio:50:50

I think he's referring to the Mewtwo match-up as in how it's so much in Kirby's favor (60:40).

Though it's about time we actually got a list where someone was able to admit their non-top tier character has more than 5 disadvantageous match-ups.

 

[Mario766]

Ike doesn't lose 60-40 to ROB.

Ryo vs 8BitMan. Smash Till Dawn.

I rest my case.

 

[Antonykun]

I'll let Antonykun talk about Swordy's tilts if he feels inclined.

well since you insist (even though you only asked once)

Swordfighter's tilts are an incredibly valuable part of his game plan possibly his best options in neutral by far.

both up tilt and down tilt have powerful applications in both offense and defense. Down tilt comes out at frame 5, deals 8%, is completely disjointed, is safe on shield. I'ts effective at both close quarters and keep away as long as the opponent is doing a grounded approach

Up tilt is a huge hit box that covers both sides has lowish recovery on the back end of the hit box which makes it safe against select characters comboes into it self and certain aerials and has nice synergy with down tilt and reverse up tilt into perfect pivot down tilt sounds nasty in theory

F-tilt i admit is a little on the meh side of things still is a fine 12% hitbox that makes for a nice pivot option at higher percents where down throw up air isn't guaranteed and it can even kill at the absurd percents Swordfighter sometimes lets his opponents be in because he lacks any safe kill set up

I was considering making a proto mu chart for swordfighter here but...I'm looking at the ones here and I'm suddenly feeling discouraged (an effective auto-lose against ROB?!-WTH)