Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

@The Soulless One
How does it look now? Decent?

 

[Deleted member]

@The Soulless One
How does it look now? Decent?

Better than it was,

I still have a few disagreements, but currently I don't have the time to expound on them.

I may come back to it later.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby does well against:

• Fastfallers, as they take sooo much damage from utilt alone
• Big bodies, as they're also pretty easy to hit a lot
• Characters with poor disadvantaged states
• Characters that can't force him to approach in neutral
• Characters with really good copy abilities

He does poorly against

• Characters that can force him to approach/plain outrange him
• Characters that can exploit his floatiness
• Characters he can't combo well
• Characters with poor copy abilities

Hm. Looking at this, you'll note that these aren't individually make or break. Just qualities that are good/bad for Kirby in a matchup. From my perspective.

 

[Y2Kay]

Matchup spread for Zard:

Disadavantage:
Even (More or Less):
Advantage:

Disadavantage: Pick a secondary NOW!!!!11!!1! / You might wanna pick a secondary......just sayin'/ 40:60 and up
Even More or Less: U can still win! / even / 55:45/ 50:50
Advantage: U got dis Charizard!/ 55:45 and up/

These are in no particular order. I'm not knowledgeable about all of these characters (especially ), so please critique, I'd appreciate some constructive criticism

Crap, I guess I'm the Zard guy now........

 

[Nu~]

Matchup spread for Zard:
Disadavantage:
Even (More or Less):
Advantage:

Disadavantage: Pick a secondary NOW!!!!11!!1! / You might wanna pick a secondary......just sayin'/ 40:60 and up
Even More or Less: U can still win! / even / 55:45/ 50:50
Advantage: U got dis Charizard!/ 55:45 and up/

These are in no particular order. I'm not knowledgeable about all of these characters (especially ), so please critique, I'd appreciate some constructive criticism

PLEASE explain that entire even category

 

[Y2Kay]

PLEASE explain that entire even category

most of those matchups are 55;45 in the opponents favor

 

[Mario766]

Ike went even with Link at release.


Now it isn't even a contest LOL

 

[wedl!!]

Just saying, Peach or Ike/Kirby is a 60:40 at least.

Also Link doesn't lose 60:40 to Peach. What. He has large range and a a great camping game, two things she HATES. She has to control close-range, and that's hard to get to when you're getting bombarded by projectiles from across the stage.

 

[Luco]

Well, all you needed to do was ask for their positions changed~
I'm certainly one to oblige.



You actually don't know how good these players actually were. If you play For Glory early in the morning, you will find some phenomenal players that make you scratch your head as to why they don't appear in the day. Among these was a person known as Mr. Casual, and he was just one of the best Pac-Mans I've ever played (professional tournament level is what I can label him).

@The Soulless One
I will say that Link's MU chart will just be changed then to be more accurate.

It's not just about skill level - you can't really measure truly just how good someone is online anyway because the environment, set-up (rulesets), stage system, and obviously input lag among other things blurs lines.

It's also hard to empirically judge the strength of wi-fi players if you haven't played some of the best smash players around (at the very least around your area if not your state/country). I know you've been to tournaments but can you name notable attendees?

It's not to say that FG practice is useless in determining a general idea of what goes on in an MU - after all, many strong FG playstyles come as variants or descendants of strong playstyles in competitive formats (even non-competitive Ness mains can do basic combo strings and kind-of play a seemingly coherent neutral game (until you find the holes, and easily)... Which is actually one of the biggest things that separate FG peeps from tournament peeps - versatility and adaptation.

When I figure out a tournament player, I start winning neutral, or pushing advantage. Promptly, the player next to me starts looking for ways to combat this new advantage, and so we keep adapting to each other's playstyles and the frame data involved just gets tighter and tighter and tighter.

When I figure out the average FG player, I walk all over them and they do diddly-squat. The frame data doesn't matter - say I'm versing a Mario and they try Utilt strings. On the second Utilt, I break out with a Nair and they trade and Mario's net percentage gain from both Utilts has been somewhat measly.

Versus a competitive player, the Mario begins to bait out the Nair and punishes it with a shield-grab which Ness can't avoid.

Versus FG players, Mario either stops abusing grab ---> Utilt altogether or continues it, mostly out of habit.

What I'm trying to say being, the game doesn't get deeper with most FG players no matter how flashy the initial gameplan, which is why competitive players are so much scarier. I'm sure you've witnessed this yourself.

You just have to be careful assuming a strategy which appears to beat an FG player also beats a competitive one, because normally those interactions go far deeper than one would imagine.

 

[Trifroze]

mods pls help

Also

120:120

 

[the king of murder]

Ignorance is bliss.

I could say something really mean right now but all I am going to say is most of you people should move a lot of characters in the "I don't know" territory. Some of you might have valid high level offline experience of a MU as a solid basis but I suspect a lot of you people use theorycraft and/or FG play as your basis. Please stop this.

 

[Nu~]

most of those matchups are 55;45 in the opponents favor

I meant why those characters are even

 

[Peppermint1201]

Peppermint1201
Explain how the rob matchup is that bad for us.

Gyro is taken out of the equation every time you throw it out. We can go up to it and trampoline to make it hard for you to pick it up.

Laser is good for cutting through our stuff, but it also gives us easy hydrant launches as long as we don't hit it first.

We also completely destroy him up close

No it isn't. Gyro is never taken out of the equation when it is thrown out. If you trampoline, I can just jump over it or on it. Meanwhile, if you steal the gyro from me all you can do is throw fruit, therefore preventing you from "destroying him up close" which is very far from being true in the first place. Even as you mentioned, laser giving you easy hydrant launches is not always a good thing, and being able to flinch you and tack on some damage is well worth putting a few percent on your hydrant which you will have a much harder time reaching thanks to the laser, which may keep you at bay long enough for the water from the hydrant to push you back further. Even if you do launch the hydrant, it isn't exactly a win condition. Not really understanding your logic here.

Ike doesn't lose 60-40 to ROB.

Ryo vs 8BitMan. Smash Till Dawn.

I rest my case.

Brawl ROB doesn't lose 60-40 to Brawl Meta Knight.

Ocean vs Mew2King. Apex 2012.

I rest my case.

See? I can cherry-pick tournament sets too!

That's surprising... couldn't ROB just throw lazers and gyros to keep the Kirb at bay?
Also I think you missed out Marth (Unless the match up is more or less the same with Lucina)

It's certainly winnable for ROB, but I believe Kirby has a slight advantage. Kirby may die early to ROB's powerful kill options, but Kirby can easily and effectively gimp ROB, can take full advantage of his easy-bake combos, and is hard to hit with projectiles due to his small stature.

 

[adom4]

mods pls help

Also

120:120

If Falcon is 120-120 against himself then Ganon goes 240-240 against himself, the ditto is janky as ****.

 

[Y2Kay]

I meant why those characters are even

any matchups in particular that ur questioning? I can't go over every single one

 

[DblCrest]

Just saying, Peach or Ike/Kirby is a 60:40 at least.
.

60:40 in who's favour?
I'm probably being a bit of a derp here since I don't know who you were responding to sorry xD

 

[wedl!!]

Peach/Ike.

 

[Nu~]

No it isn't. Gyro is never taken out of the equation when it is thrown out. If you trampoline, I can just jump over it or on it. Meanwhile, if you steal the gyro from me all you can do is throw fruit, therefore preventing you from "destroying him up close" which is very far from being true in the first place. Even as you mentioned, laser giving you easy hydrant launches is not always a good thing, and being able to flinch you and tack on some damage is well worth putting a few percent on your hydrant which you will have a much harder time reaching thanks to the laser, which may keep you at bay long enough for the water from the hydrant to push you back further. Even if you do launch the hydrant, it isn't exactly a win condition. Not really understanding your logic here.

You don't understand it because you jumped around it.

If you jump over or on the trampoline, you get hit by a bair or utilt when you land. If we trampoline next to your gyro, you can't pick it up safely while we can still use all of our normals.

Laser has enough startup for me to jump over it and then Nair the hydrant. It really isn't hard to access the hydrant when your laser is active because it isn't rapid fire. You get one shot, that we can see coming in nuetral, and then you have to wait. Whether we jump or shield, we have plenty of time to launch the hydrant afterwards. I don't see how giving pacman 13% projectiles for free isn't always a good thing.

We do destroy you up close because our attacks are that much faster than yours. ROB is one of the few characters that fair -> Nair chains are true because he doesn't have an attack fast enough to throw out. Then when galaxian is in the equation...you end up taking 50% or more off of one hit confirm (starts at 20:20)due to your size and frame data.

Never did I even imply that launching the hydrant was a win condition, just that it makes using laser in nuetral more of a liability to you.

 

[Nobie]

It just occurred to me why Japan's tier lists end up the way they do: Japan heavily emphasizes optimization.

Think about an optimized Mario. Sounds scary, right? Imagine just how much an optimized Mewtwo could be capable of. In contrast, an optimal Marth still has to contend with the fact that his rewards aren't that high even at an ideal level.

 

[Mario766]

I didn't cherry pick, but okay. That's the most recent, and relevant Rob vs Ike set in a big tournament. The MU has been even since release. Ryuga vs Chibo Youmacon.

Yes, it's Chibo. But that's RELEASE Ike. Do I even have to explain why that means a lot?

Ike handles ROB very well, our dash shield is top notch, so we can power shield Gyro/Laser more effectively, and as shown by Ryo a lot, Ike has a VERY good DACIT and can just throw Gyro up to get rid of it. Ike also wins close, and can space out ROB's close moves. ROB has to get space, which Ike won't allow at all. Ike combos ROB just like ROB combos Ike, ROB falls fast enough for his combos, and he's heavy. Double whammy against Ike. The main things ROB has against us is projectiles, and a possible kill confirm that works at some percents and doesn't at others, kinda like DK.

 

[Nu~]

I didn't cherry pick, but okay. That's the most recent, and relevant Rob vs Ike set in a big tournament. The MU has been even since release. Ryuga vs Chibo Youmacon.

Yes, it's Chibo. But that's RELEASE Ike. Do I even have to explain why that means a lot?

Ike handles ROB very well, our dash shield is top notch, so we can power shield Gyro/Laser more effectively, and as shown by Ryo a lot, Ike has a VERY good DACIT and can just throw Gyro up to get rid of it. Ike also wins close, and can space out ROB's close moves. ROB has to get space, which Ike won't allow at all. Ike combos ROB just like ROB combos Ike, ROB falls fast enough for his combos, and he's heavy. Double whammy against Ike. The main things ROB has against us is projectiles, and a possible kill confirm that works at some percents and doesn't at others, kinda like DK.

He can even DACIT forwards...

Don't know how much it influences the matchup, but being able to follow up right behind gyro hits is pretty big.

 

[DblCrest]

Peach/Ike.

Ah Alrighty .
That's cool then . Just need someone that could reliably handle Triple D, Yoshi, Metaknight, Peach and Ike if things prove way too tough. I honestly STILL haven't found a secondary to stick with after all this time after hovering between Pika,Greninja and Zero suit Samus.

 

[Mario766]

He can even DACIT forwards...

Don't know how much it influences the matchup, but being able to follow up right behind gyro hits is pretty big.

It's very useful.

Good luck getting it consistently. I believe it's extremely tight in terms of timing. It's easier to DACIT up or down. Ryo DACIT's up in his set, multiple times.

 

[Nu~]

It's very useful.

Good luck getting it consistently. I believe it's extremely tight in terms of timing. It's easier to DACIT up or down. Ryo DACIT's up in his set, multiple times.

It becomes muscle memory. I performed it on my first try with Ike and pacman.

It's a lot harder with mega man for some reason.

 

[Antonykun]

this is what I'm getting from these Mu's

Everyone but
: we win

best part the only MU to even bother to explain why it works that way is the not losing MU
Gheb's right these MU charts have become cancerous

 

[TTTTTsd]

Their hitboxes are in the same locations with respect to their character frames. They are also the same size. Their swords are animations so that doesn't matter (and you have no idea which sword is longer or if they are the same so don't make baseless claims).

I'm gonna have to be real, in some instances Lucina does actually have less range than Marth. Stick Bowser on a battlefield platform and FSmash with Marth/Lucina below him.

Marth's hits, Lucina's doesn't. It's weird and I want to know what does it, but I can only assume Lucina being Marth without tippers means they literally removed the hitboxes for the tippers as opposed to homogenizing the data. Which is stupid.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm gonna have to be real, in some instances Lucina does actually have less range than Marth. Stick Bowser on a battlefield platform and FSmash with both of them below it.

Marth's hits, Lucina's doesn't. It's weird and I want to know what does it, but I can only assume Lucina being Marth without tippers means they literally removed the hitboxes for the tippers as opposed to homogenizing the data. Which is stupid.

Yes we all know Marth is taller than her. And that hypothesis is simply not true.

 

[Mario766]

It becomes muscle memory. I performed it on my first try with Ike and pacman.

It's a lot harder with mega man for some reason.

Well DACIT up would remove Gyro from play for a short amount of time, which I'd find more useful than just throwing it at ROB, Ike doesn't need a projectile to follow up behind, I'd rather just remove Gyro from play, while covering ROB's landings which is SUPER poor.

 

[Wintropy]

It just occurred to me why Japan's tier lists end up the way they do: Japan heavily emphasizes optimization.

Think about an optimized Mario. Sounds scary, right? Imagine just how much an optimized Mewtwo could be capable of. In contrast, an optimal Marth still has to contend with the fact that his rewards aren't that high even at an ideal level.

This is a very important post and I want to respond to it to emphasise that.

This is why I'm wary of ditching Mewtwo into the "no hopers" category and being done with it. Optimally speaking, Mewtwo is a very scary character: decent frame data, good mobility, disjoints, a very powerful stored weapon, a reflect / command grab in the same move, great kill power, a highly damaging f-throw, combo d-throw and two very powerful kill throws in u-throw and b-throw.

What holds him back is his size, relatively weak combo potential and weight. In a crazy 20XX world where you're never going to get hit and therefore entirely mitigate Mewtwo's biggest weakness, Mewtwo would probably be one of the scariest characters in the roster.

That isn't going to happen. There's no denying the fact that Mewtwo's weight is a big weakness. He is going to get hit, and it is going to hurt. That's inescapable. What we can do, and what Japan seems to have figured out, is accept that and take steps to optimise what strengths he does have. In a context where Mewtwo is still going to die early, but in which he can make you suffer and potentially kill you even faster, I can see him being a very potent character indeed.

I dunno. Just vague ramblings. Mewtwo's cool. We love a bit of Mewtwo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeey.

Anyone on East coast want dat Ryu match-up exp?

 

[Peppermint1201]

I didn't cherry pick, but okay. That's the most recent, and relevant Rob vs Ike set in a big tournament. The MU has been even since release. Ryuga vs Chibo Youmacon.

Yes, it's Chibo. But that's RELEASE Ike. Do I even have to explain why that means a lot?

Ike handles ROB very well, our dash shield is top notch, so we can power shield Gyro/Laser more effectively, and as shown by Ryo a lot, Ike has a VERY good DACIT and can just throw Gyro up to get rid of it. Ike also wins close, and can space out ROB's close moves. ROB has to get space, which Ike won't allow at all. Ike combos ROB just like ROB combos Ike, ROB falls fast enough for his combos, and he's heavy. Double whammy against Ike. The main things ROB has against us is projectiles, and a possible kill confirm that works at some percents and doesn't at others, kinda like DK.

If it has only happened twice at a high level, I guess neither side has much tournament-quality evidence to prove or deny their assessment of the matchup yet. As for the rest of your evidence, I think you're understating ROB. Ike may have a good DACIT (dash attack cancelled item toss i'm assuming??) but I don't think the various different glide tosses in this game go as fast as they used to, and throwing the gyro away is all Ike can really do with it since he can't rely on his specials or hang back and camp. While Ike is doing a DACIT he can't perfect shield and is just as susceptible to being lasered and having his approach interrupted. Ike can get in, but ROB makes it hard for him to do so and will make him pay for his mistakes. Besides, saying that all ROB has is the projectiles and hoo-hah is laughable. Not only are those two things very good to have (projectiles are projectiles, and ROB's downthrow upair is pretty reliable and when it isn't guaranteed it's still easy to land if he catches an airdodge. If you try to DI away, ROB can give you a blaster to the face with back air.) but ROB still has two reliable smashes that can kill with relative ease, good juggles against ike, a kill throw that can make one grab even more deadly at the higher percents where hoo-hah might not work, and great setups/edgeguards with gyro.

It just occurred to me why Japan's tier lists end up the way they do: Japan heavily emphasizes optimization.

Think about an optimized Mario. Sounds scary, right? Imagine just how much an optimized Mewtwo could be capable of. In contrast, an optimal Marth still has to contend with the fact that his rewards aren't that high even at an ideal level.

To be honest, I think you're reading too much into it. Japanese tier lists seem to be swayed highly by results from Japanese tournaments, and with M2_KENTO and Ginko it's no surprise that they'd put Mewtwo at a decent tier position.

 

[DblCrest]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeey.

Anyone on East coast want dat Ryu match-up exp?

I'm curious (Though I ain't from no east coast) But I think people are already sick of seeing them XD

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm gonna have to be real, in some instances Lucina does actually have less range than Marth. Stick Bowser on a battlefield platform and FSmash with Marth/Lucina below him.

Marth's hits, Lucina's doesn't. It's weird and I want to know what does it, but I can only assume Lucina being Marth without tippers means they literally removed the hitboxes for the tippers as opposed to homogenizing the data. Which is stupid.

I believe it's cuz lucina is shorter. That's why Tink's and MK's are shorter

this is what I'm getting from these Mu's

Everyone but
: we win

best part the only MU to even bother to explain why it works that way is the not losing MU
Gheb's right these MU charts have become cancerous

I'm fine with stopping MU spreads if yall think it's going out of hand. I think it's nice to see what Character's mains think of how they fair against the cast, but what evs. What should we do instead? I was thinking maybe just detailed explanations of relevant matchups for that characters, because having 54 heads in one post is a lil too much.

 

[PK Gaming]

Here's my MU Chart for

Biggest Advantage (80:20 to 70:30)


Big Advantage (65:35)


Advantage (60:40 to 55:45)


Even (50:50)


Slight Disadvantage (45:55)


Disadvantage (40:60)


The way I see it, Link can hold his own if you know how to use him right. The reason I put Pac-Man in his advantage zone is because last night, I had quite a lot of matches with a few astonishingly amazing (tournament level) Pac-Man players on, believe it or not, For Glory. They really did a number on all my characters except Link, I couldn't even win with Ganondorf, but I managed to win with Link when I went 30% serious. Hydrants, Trampoline shenanigans, Fruit picking, combos, they had a great amount of that, but I still won using Link.

As for Link and Sheik being even, we have to remember that Sheik isn't the only character who has combo capabilities. Link does too, and I've even fought a Sheik player online (on With Friends), and he did the same thing to me with every character but Link. But I still struggled with Link, he struggled with Sheik, and it came to my conclusion that they would be more over a tie than anything else. I even went to a couple tournaments to fight against good Sheik players and found that Link can hold his own against her.

Link primarily has an advantage on characters with somewhat bad or predictable projectiles or characters who need to rush him down to do anything. He beats Mega Man because he actually shuts down Mega Man's projectiles and has to make Mega Man respect the bomb, he beats every super heavy except for DK because of their size and weight, and he can kill characters like Doc, Kirby, Mewtwo, Lucario and Puff extremely, extremely early.

D3 is Link's best MU, because D3 is an extremely slow, extremely heavy and extremely sluggish attacker who's only projectile is literally beaten by Link's. D3 is combo food against Link, and has only one option to get out of combos, and that's N-Air. If D3 gets a grab on Link, he can get something going, if he can hit Link with D-Smash, he can KO Link well. But that's IF he can, because D3 is notorious for being the slowest character in overall stats (by this, I mean D3 is the slowest character in dexterity, which is his mobility, aerial mobility and attack speeds all combined; he's not the slowest runner, but if you combine all his stats, he is the slowest). Link on the other hand can just wail on him like no one's business, and I believe this is a solid 80:20 or 70:30 win for him. Link's got the speed, mobility, grab range and most importantly, range and size, all of which are better, compared to D3.

Also, Link doesn't have a projectile that is just shot back at him.

Goddamn it Larry, just give it a rest.

You aren't learning. You're somehow stuck in the "I have no idea how the game works, so I am going to keep indulging in ignorance" phase that you should of been out months ago. Please, for your own good hold off on posting and spend some time learning about the game. Sit back. Sift through ZeRo's videos. Watch matches. Do research. Do something other than continually making these increasingly inane posts.

 

[bc1910]

What are the inputs for DACIT?

 

[Deathcarter]

Ike went even with Link at release.


Now it isn't even a contest LOL

No way Ike went even with Link at release given Ike's awful fair, non-existent midrange options, and punishable options on shield pre landing lag reductions and damage buff on bair vs Link's jab canceling, lag canceling item toss, and ability to shield grab most of Ike's attack in addition to his projectile camping. Even now I'd hesitate to say its more than 55:45 Ike's favor (I personally lean towards even tbh).

 

[DblCrest]

I'm curious to know whether thoughts on characters rarely talked about have changed.

Liiiiike Wii Fit Trainer for instance or Little Mac.

 

[Nobie]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeey.

Anyone on East coast want dat Ryu match-up exp?

Won't be available online until later. Will you be around in the evening?

 

[Nu~]

What are the inputs for DACIT?

->+->/

 

[Y2Kay]

Lil Mac is an interesting case. I used to think he was aboslute trash, but seeing MVG Sol. Has changed my mind a little bit. I feel like he's not too terrible, but there are some terrible matchups against top tiers that are just...awful. are the only good characters I see him standing a decent chance against. His offstage liabilite gives him the worst amount of gate keepers by far.