Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Shulk I'd honestly say is in our favor or even, we can get combos on him due to his frame data and we can use the monados.Gonna make dis quick cuz I'm using 3G in a different country and it costs a **** ton.
Kirby really struggles hard against imo (in order):
self explanatory
, With and around the same range
The Mii has a far more useful sets of tilts and thus a far better options out of a walk, a better dash attack, and an F-smash that counts as a yolo attack that extends past Ike's Grounded Range
I can say he's definitely bottom 20, but I can't say if he is low-mid or low tier because everyone's perception on that is different. Robin, Wii Fit, and Mac seem to be winning MUs in my opinion.So,Mazdamaxsti , do you think Kirby is really near the bottom of the lists? Are there any MUs you think he wins? If so, why?
Shulk I'd honestly say is in our favor or even, we can get combos on him due to his frame data and we can use the monados.
I'd say Link is worse than Toon Link, but they're really close so whatever.
Mega Man is bad but not worse than 45:55 since we can use Metal Blade and we have a good advantage when both Mega Man and Kirby are in the air.
Peach I don't think is the 4th worst, but eh IDC since it makes sense.
Just out of curiosity, what would you say are the matchup ratios for each character you mention?
IMO, I think our top 8 worst matchups are
30:70 35:65/30:7035:6535:6535:6535:65/40:60 (Our speed and range make his moves nearly unpublishable sometimes, monados help but getting the inhale is also hard) 35:65/40:60 35:65/40:60
I'm guessing no issue then?
Eh, since you're here. Can't Mewtwo's Utilt setup an Up Smash on fast fallers like what happened here: https://youtu.be/Dmiz9cSgsfU?t=207?
Aren't his moves still unsafe on shield? Besides with his abhorrent frame data, I find it hard to call him safe.
Nah, nair, fair and bair I believe all were safe before the shieldstun changes.
*When spaced properly.
Yeah weak Utilt > Usmash is a pretty good KO setup for Mewtwo that true combos from about 75% to 135% (On Mario, the percentage where it trues is a bit different for everyone) and works on all characters and not just fastfallers.
I would also add Swordfighter's better off-stage edgeguarding. Unlike Ike Swordfighter is able to go for deep when edgeguarding. His Dair is a thing of nightmares along with his Fair. He also has access to projectiles (dat Tornado and Chakram). There is a reason why most of Swordfighter's KOs happen off-stage. But then again Ike can edgeguard Wario who is one of the hardest guys to edgeguard do to his bike. Overall I would say Swordfighter has better overall edgeguarding game than Ike.
Disputed. Jab is a good spotdodge / roll punish and confirms into grab, f-tilt and d-tilt much the same, d-tilt being the fastest of her tilts and a good setup for air followups (n-air and f-air). Shorthop n-air, f-air and RAR b-air are basically CQC options. Not great by any means, but definitely not terrible or useless, fairly or otherwise.
To be fair, d-throw -> u-air exists even in default, it's just infinitely easier to get with Lightweight. You really need to read your opponent's DI to connect in default, not factoring in damage and rage.
Um, what? Bowser better than Shulk? Marth and Lucina? Miis nowhere to be found? At least you have Zelda as the not worst character and Dedede as the second best super heavyweight, those are accurate.Quick thoughts on bottom 15 right now maybe to stir something up (I think this is what would be D tier):
Mewtwo and Mac both have some powerful things going for them and then they die. Jigglypuff also dies, but has much less going for her in terms of neutral and advantage. Ganondorf's 2x higher reward doesn't matter when he can't get in and is so slow as well as easy to hit, an absolute noobslayer character though so may still have skewed opinions. Might prove to be worse than Jigglypuff eventually. Palutena has a pretty good neutral because of her mobility, dash attack and aerials but she also has terrible CQC, fairly useless specials and tilts, as well as slow and punishable smashes. No reliable way to get kills and she's tall and light, definitely mid tier with customs due to superspeed and the dthrow uair combo she gets. Zelda also has a bunch of dysfunctional attacks that don't have much utility, and while she can close off stocks better than Palutena her neutral is way worse due to her fair, bair and poor overall mobility. Tall and dies early as well.
This is where my confidence drops a little bit, Charizard has good OoS options in up b and up smash (very powerful but not super fast) and a kill throw, but his aerial mobility is pretty terrible and while he has a couple decent autocancels and two mid-air jumps he can't land with anything that wouldn't be risky. Pretty much the same with Bowser except his OoS and landing options seem a bit weaker and his kill potential and damage is greater, in particular he has great tilts and a command grab. Shulk has terrible frame data but quite a lot of safety, yet it doesn't ultimately matter when he can't keep people off of himself and Monado Arts tend to have just as much drawbacks as benefits. Gimpable recovery and struggles to kill. Marth is better than Lucina by a couple spots mainly because of the clutch factor of fsmash. Both characters are a lot better after the last few patches, but still I can't see how either of them kill reliably. Neither gets anything directly off of their very low damage throws either.
Falco, Kirby, Dedede and Samus I think all have something going for them that more or less separates them from the rest. Falco and Kirby have great CQC, just struggle moving around due to their slowness and effectively lack a projectile. Kirby also benefits from his size. Dedede, in the context of being a superheavy, is special for his multiple jumps, disjoints and a lagless aerial in nair making landings relatively easy, as well as a projectile (slow gordo is definitely not useless). Pretty good recovery as well, and survives forever. Samus has 40+% combos out of dash attack with her great aerials and also gets a lot of mileage off of zair, max range ftilt and CS. As such she has a great midrange game and also decent CQC options despite her bad grab with her fast and safe jab 1, dtilt and up b. Good survivability as well, and I think the only things that really keep her down are her trouble resetting to neutral and dealing with pressure because of her slow and punishable grab, floatiness and height. "Decent CQC" also isn't good enough vs heavy, constant rushdown, although on the other hand you can't hope to just outspace Samus and keep her out and win. The most underrated low tier in my opinion because too often she's placed dead last or bottom 3, and there's a ton of misconception about her attacks being bad when they're actually really good (like fsmash and dash attack).
I think you don't know Ike. His F-Tilt, Up Tilt and Down Tilt are all very useful. Ike doesn't need walk options, as his walk speed is...well
Maybe you're right. Hes a character that I personally struggle against, so idk.
That's the thing. Against the best characters (and even some mid tiers), it's not easy at all to win neutral as Ganon. Between his bad (though not too bad considering his power) frame data, terrible mobility, and terrible grab, many characters can overwhelm him up close and far away. Ganon's best game is in midrange, and if you don't give him the opportunity to play that game, he's as good as dead.
dude stop doblue posting this is a thread not a chat if you want to add something you edit your last post
Good disjointed and his n-air is really good. Still bottom tier but at least he's functional.
How does a character "overwhelm" Ganon from far away? It's true that there's projectiles sure, but 99% of projectiles simply don't exert that kind of pressure. This isn't Brawl Ganon. He does not suffer from being forced to approach.
And thus the problem with Mewtwo. I won't expect Nintendo to increase his weight (which they should), but they really need to fix the hitboxes for them to match AT LEAST, if any buff at all. In fact, is this even a buff? More like a bug fix to me.
D tier implies that these characters are unusable in tournament, which I think isn't the case forQuick thoughts on bottom 15 right now maybe to stir something up (I think this is what would be D tier):
For Glory.
I get that this probably wasn't meant to be taken literally but Ganon has to win neutral more than that. He probably has to win neutral 5 or 6 times to take a stock (I don't buy this "win neutral twice and you've won" crap for any character except ZSS and maybe high Aura Lucario but probably not), the good characters don't need to win neutral 20+ times to end Ganon, hell even the bad characters probably don't.
Maybe because DDD becomes a completly different character when DDD is in a lead? Just watch as this slow combo food with a meh neutral transforms into a big wall with meaty disjoints who just refuses to die and slowly builds up his rage. His entire gameplan changes dramatically. Nobody wants to be in a stock deficit against DDD, not even Shiek. Of course getting that lead is a different story and we see a very sad penguin in any other situation
.
Sheik is a notable example. Though you are right in the way of saying that he isn't forced to approach like in Brawl.
Ganon has some extremely significant issues that prevent him from being anything but a bottom 5 character. His disadvantageous state is easily the worst in the game due to his horrendous recovery, large stature (making him easy to hit w/ attacks) and being a fast faller, meaning Ganon can't afford to lose neutral exchanges. Unfortunately, Ganon's neutral is pretty bad as well since his large hurtbox makes him vulnerable to attacks that wouldn't hit other characters (ZSS's SH uair for example) he's extremely slow, his frame data is poor on most attacks, and his grab, which is short ranged with a noticeable amount of startup and endlag making ganon unable to deal with shields.
do you have a video link? I'd like to see this myself.
I'd like to think that proper spacing isn't something that ever needs to be mentioned separately, but I understand there are a lot of different dimensions to safety. However if a move has enough range to abuse shield drop lag then, to me personally, it's self-explanatory that when we talk about the safety of that move we take that range into account.
Miis unfortunately are a joke when judging characters as long as our community can't decide what versions of them we will or won't allow to be used in tournaments. As such I personally exclude them from any lists I make. As for your other points I can't really answer anything before you explain yourself, but there's nothing to suggest that Marth or Lucina, despite having some good tools, have more going for them than the ones above. Same for Shulk, whereas Bowser's up there because he not only has a decent neutral, but also two "kill throws" and good kill potential altogether. I think the lack of reliability killing is a major weakness in this game, and only characters who have a ton of other strengths can truly deal with it (even Yoshi and Pikachu struggle). The lack of grab reward is another major weakness a character can have, and Marth, Lucina and Shulk posses both of those weaknesses. Smash dthrow for Shulk isn't in my opinion enough, because Smash anything kills and activating it is usually a huge risk.
At this point I realize Palutena's jab is f7 and not f8 the latter of which is how I remembered it. Not a huge difference though as it still means her fastest normal is no faster than her grab, and that's the main issue I was onto. Her CQC is basically jab, it has a lot of utility when you have the time to use it. Her aerials aren't any better in this regard, in fact they're all considerably slower because of jump squat, the only advantage is that you can use them out of shield. Still, fair, nair and bair all miss / don't work properly on grounded characters who aren't particularly tall.
It does work on a few characters, but the large majority can avoid it by DI'ing away and there's never any reason they shouldn't if they're at kill percents. The biggest reason it's so good with lightweight (in addition to the fact that it works on everyone) is that Palutena jumps so high while uairing them they die pretty much 30% earlier.
vs is definitely in Ike's favour, he can actually manipulate space better than ROB does well and he can do more with the Gyro than ROB can. Plus he hits like a truck, and he might be one of the characters who has an easier time messing with ROB's recovery. vs is not good for ROB. vs is really quite terrible for ROB if the MK understands the matchup (ie. play safe, passively, try to stay in that mid-range area which makes ROB's projectiles too much of a commitment, if you get an opportunity you take that dash grab/attack). vs is similarly quite terrible for ROB because he cannot land at all. People love to point this out when discussing ZSS or Mac but they seem to forget it in this matchup. vs is not particularly good for Diddy either, it's probably not quite Pac's favour but it's certainly not outrageous to think it might be.
That's not what I meant at all. Ganon hypothetically can take a stock from winning neutral once, though it'll be extremely rare and only marginally more common with Ganon than any other character.
(/)(EDIT:)
Pazx
's top ten. We just disagree on #11.
Pazx
You and I have exactly the same top 10. I think it's clear too.Greninja should definitely be on that maybe list. The Sheik MU got better with the shieldstun patch and I went over how good the rest of his spread is looking.So what characters do you folks think are solo viable at this point? Note that this is a slightly different question than asking who the top- and high-tier characters are. Someone can be ranked very highly and struggle in 1-2 MUs (ex: Rosa, Ness) or be ranked lower but not lose terribly to anyone (ex: the Pits).
My guesses are sort of in order based on whose worst MUs are worse, but not entirely because several sort-of-bad MUs can add up. For this reason, it's really hard to judge some of these in relative terms. Behold:
Obviously:
Maybe:
It is kind of funny that my "obviously viable" list has 9/10 of the characters from
