Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Djent]

bc1910 Yeah actually you're right, dunno why I left him off. I'd guess he's probably between Villager and Ike.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Djent , I think Yoshi could easily be seen as solo viable seeing he doesn't lose that many MUs (in fact, of all the top tiers, the only ones I feel he clearly loses to are Sheik, Pikachu, and Diddy). Plus it's not like he hasn't had good results in previous nationals.

I, however, do not think Luigi should be on the list, but I do agree with bc1910 that Greninja should.

 

[Djent]

IMO the only thing missing for Yoshi is good results from previous nationals.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think "literally" is stretching it...~ ;3

Nah but for reals.

Is there any matchup where copying neutral-b makes a big difference? I know Monado makes Shulk a bit more tolerable and needles can be fun with Sheik, but beyond party tricks, is there a matchup that's really salvaged by copy?

Funny you say that. Pit and Pittwo would be interesting, since Kirb can SH arrow and chain more since he has more jumps. No sure if Pit or Dark Pit would be better in the matchup as a result... Either we give him Pit's arrows and he can gimp us much more effectively (don't think it helps Pit much since Kirby's almost free to gimp I swear) while we probably outcamp him because we have better movement, or we give him Dark Pit's arrows and now he outcamps us because Dark Pit's fullhop arrows are terrible.

Never played a Kirby who understood how our arrows worked, much less with both angels, so it's hard to say.

 

[bc1910]

Funnily enough I was just thinking about whether Luigi should be on there. I really don't know that much about him post-patch. He probably has too many soft counters to be solo viable now and he kind of wasn't solo viable before.

I think the other characters floating around that maybe list would be ROB, DK and Lucario.

ROB does have solid results, but like Luigi he probably has too many crappy MUs. Sheik, MK, Ness and Pikachu come to mind as soft counters... ROB needs better landing options.

DK is definitely good and I can't argue with his results from M2K and DKWill, but to the best of my knowledge he hasn't done much as of late. His grab is even scarier than pre-patch Luigi's but I think it's easier to not get grabbed by DK, his dashgrab isn't a telegrab and he doesn't have fireballs to set stuff up. Again it seems like he struggles with too many top tiers to be solo viable. Sheik does really well, Sonic probably does too, and ZSS maims every heavy.

Lucario is probably too inconsistent for solo viability. His Aura-induced rampages usually come to an end because it's so hard to repeatedly survive those high % situations.

 

[|RK|]

I think "literally" is stretching it...~ ;3

Nah but for reals.

Is there any matchup where copying neutral-b makes a big difference? I know Monado makes Shulk a bit more tolerable and needles can be fun with Sheik, but beyond party tricks, is there a matchup that's really salvaged by copy?

Maybe I'm overstating it, but Monado Arts are incredible on Kirby. They work for Shulk because he has rather mediocre stats that become crazy with the Arts. But Kirby already stands on his own, so everything becomes overturned. Speed makes approaching and punishes so much easier. Everything else is icing, really... But since you already mentioned that ability...

We use Mario's fireballs better than he does because if multiple jumps. Pikachu becomes slightly less of a nightmare, too... Really, any character with a projectile as their Neutral B, since Kirby gains the ability to attack them from a distance and lessen the stress of their camping game. Because without it, I'm usually screwed beyond normal.

**For Glory things incoming (since I haven't played a Link in tournament)**
I might get some flack for this, but I've even found arrows useful against Link/Toon Link. Why? Because if I can't get in on them, I can at least make them do *something* at a distance. Shield, spotdodge, change position... just something. And it's usually a saving grace in a matchup where my only other options are defensive. It doesn't mean I win the matchup, like, at all. But I get an extra option, and that helps.

Other For Glory strats include curving Pit's arrows around Guardian Orbitars so it hits his head in neutral. But that one's just a party trick

/forglory

Samus's Charge Shot is amazing as both a combo option and kill option. Olimar's Pikmin are great for edgeguarding, and... that's all I have off the top of my head.

 

[Blobface]

Looking over the roster there's about 20-25 or so characters I'd say Ganon is equal to or better than, though that's obviously a very finicky measurement considering how close the roster is, which is also why I'm not going to actually post it. This thread would explode.

Done talking Ganon for now, but I do think Ganon is viable with a little luck. Some of Ganon's top players definitely could make top 32, maybe 16 at a national. That might speak more for the game than it speaks for Ganon though.

 

[Jams.]

vs is similarly quite terrible for ROB because he cannot land at all. People love to point this out when discussing ZSS or Mac but they seem to forget it in this matchup.

I disagree with this. Unlike Mac or ZSS (or many other characters), ROB has better mobility than Ness. Ness has a pretty awful run speed (ranked 43rd based on Kuroganehammer) and his air speed is also lower than ROB's. This makes it much safer to ledge reset or to safely airdodge away if he chases after you with an aerial. Ness also doesn't have anything that outranges ROB's nair. Combined with the better mobility, this makes it much easier for ROB to position himself to land safely with nair.

Honestly, I don't think ROB's landing options are that bad. Most characters would love to have ROB's nair as a landing option.

 

[bc1910]

Djent In answer to your original post since you asked us what we think, this is my guess on current solo viability. Characters are verrrrry roughly ordered within groups:

Spoiler: Solo Viability estimate

Most solo viable:
Also solo viable:
Maybe:
Possibly:

I used some of the MU spreads we've seen to help judge some characters. Peach is ranked a little lower because she seemingly has a large number of -1s which, whilst not as crippling as -2s, are hard to repeatedly power through. I've thrown in ROB because my gut instinct says he deserves to be there, though I wish I understood his MUs better.

EDIT: Changed my mind on the Pits. Reviewed the spread and I really don't think they can have that many disadvantages.

 

[Y2Kay]

Djent
EDIT: Changed my mind on the Pits. Reviewed the spread and I really don't think they can have that many disadvantages.

I was about to say, the only tough matchups I see is Sheik, Sonic, Pikachu, and maybe Ryu?

 

[Emblem Lord]

In what reality is Luigi solo viable? He loses to like 6 top tiers. The **** are you guys on?

 

[Wintermelon43]

In what reality is Luigi solo viable? He loses to like 6 top tiers. The **** are you guys on?

Because Apex 2016's venue burnt down, and every single smasher except Esam died in it.

So Luigi is solo viable.

 

[Rizen]

**For Glory things incoming (since I haven't played a Link in tournament)**
I might get some flack for this, but I've even found arrows useful against Link/Toon Link. Why? Because if I can't get in on them, I can at least make them do *something* at a distance. Shield, spotdodge, change position... just something. And it's usually a saving grace in a matchup where my only other options are defensive. It doesn't mean I win the matchup, like, at all. But I get an extra option, and that helps.

^I've played the Link side and Kirby is more annoying with arrows. Pretty much what you said, Link still wins in camping but Kirby suddenly gets a long range attack to throw out.

Other thoughts from the last few pages:
IMO Ganon is bottom 10. He has great reward but his game is entirely based on playing smarter than/reading your opponent to land slow moves. If the opponent is an even skill level they don't have to work as hard. Approaching is a pain for Ganon when people play defensively. He is huge and slow and even though he hits like a truck, it's a truck a simple needle/arrow/projectile can stop short. His CQC game, approaching and recovery are big factors holding him back.

Link loses hard to Shiek. Her needles are sort of like a softer version of Falco's lasers from Brawl in the sense that they're a quick attack that shuts slower Link down. Shiek's frame data and mobility ****s on Link. She also has enough reach *coughFaircough* to make spacing hard even with Link's sword. Link isn't helpless but he seriously must outplay the Sheik to win.

 

[Nobie]

Did you know that there are some intentionally super impractical things Sakurai put into the game? One of them is that an aerial warlock punch is waaaay stronger. And by aerial, I mean that Ganondorf's feet can't be touching the ground when it connects. Without springs or something crazy like a windbox assist it's next to impossible to even TRY to land.

 

[FullMoon]

Did you know that there are some intentionally super impractical things Sakurai put into the game? One of them is that an aerial warlock punch is waaaay stronger. And by aerial, I mean that Ganondorf's feet can't be touching the ground when it connects. Without springs or something crazy like a windbox assist it's next to impossible to even TRY to land.

Well it's so hard to pull off you might as well reward people who do manage to land it.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Well it's so hard to pull off you might as well reward people who do manage to land it.

Ah, the complete Ganondorf character philosophy.

On a more serious note, before everyone gets all these matchups posts out of their system, why doesnt someone post a matchup set for Sheik? We expect her to be even or positive against everyone, but just how bad does it get for each/your character?

 

[Illuminose]

let's try this for fun!



slight disadvantage


even


slight advantage


advantage


heavy advantage

 

[KakuCP9]

As a lucario main, I will save everyone else the trouble of telling you that Luc doesn't have an advantageous MU (let alone a even one) over Shiek outside of crappy mid level play. Also, that trend was supposed to be die a few pages ago.

 

[L9999]

Here we go.
Really bad.
Really bad.
Annoying to no end
Atrocious.
Atrocious.
Atrocious.
Atrocious.
Duh, even.
I rather play Pichu.
Not worth mentioning.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

let's try this for fun!



slight disadvantage


even


slight advantage


advantage


heavy advantage

>Ike in heavy advantage

Dreaaaaaaaamer. Nothing but a dreaaaaaaaaaaamer.

Ike doesn't have a single MU worse than 4-6. Like wise I suspect he doesn't have a MU better than 6-4.

SM beat Void before a number of patches closed the gap in the MU further. Its completely winnable. Uphill? Yes. Doable? Yes.

 

[Y2Kay]

Welp, looks like these Matchup Charts have run their course........

 

[Mario766]

For a follow-up, Ryuga vs Zero Rebirth V

At first you might think "Hey. He got 3-0'd. What gives?"

He was also winning those two first matches, but 2 SDs that had nothing to do with Zero even hitting him lost him those matches. He was controlling Zero's Sheik very well in a tournament he played amazingly in.

There's also the point where Sheik isn't a roadblock for Ike, unlike other characters.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

let's try this for fun!



slight disadvantage


even


slight advantage


advantage


heavy advantage

Kirby 50:50? 0_0 I hate when sheiks say this, since its not true in the slightest. Oh hey we can duck under needles easy even MU lol NO it isnt

Anyways, people were talking about the Kirby vs Link MU earlier and I realied I had a match on Anthers with the very extremes of the MU. Warning: I didn't play optimally, I was mostly going for d-air when i had the chance for good damage, but it still goes to show that Link makes Kirby struggle. But the vid isnt only me getting rekt, though.

It shows how hard it is for Kirby to get in on Link, but if it happens it can completely change the match due to link's ability to get combo'd and bad recovery.

also bad quality but whatever

My opinion of this MU is that Kirby loses, but Kirby's advantage state is so strong against him it cant be anything worse than 40:60 Link's favour.

 

[Charoite]

There is a mexican tourney running right now , with top players like Hyuga and Leo this is the stream for who want to see the matches: http://www.twitch.tv/tier3gs

 

[DunnoBro]

DHD is fine vs sheik. Prob his best top tier matchup. Definitely better than ness, or yoshi vs her. He wins neutral more vs her since all his projectiles effectively combat needles, and his damage output is higher across all percents. In other MUs his kill potential is much worse, but sheik being a larger, lighter fast faller actually has to deal with 50/50 death around 100 off dthrow, dair, or frisbee (which beats all but full charge needles)


Honestly the main characters barring dhd from viability are sonic and fast fallers right now. The new shield changes have actually helped him out a fair amount I'm discovering. (safe on shield kill set-ups and can use fair safely while advancing, letting me actually follow-up into edgeguards/grabs without the possibility of just getting shield grabbed, and a whole lot of not dying for falling short of perfection)

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

DHD is fine vs sheik. Prob his best top tier matchup. Definitely better than ness, or yoshi vs her. He wins neutral more vs her since all his projectiles effectively combat needles, and his damage output is higher across all percents. In other MUs his kill potential is much worse, but sheik being a larger, lighter fast faller actually has to deal with 50/50 death around 100 off dthrow, dair, or frisbee (which beats all but full charge needles)


Honestly the main characters barring dhd from viability are sonic and fast fallers right now. The new shield changes have actually helped him out a fair amount I'm discovering. (safe on shield kill set-ups and can use fair safely while advancing, letting me actually follow-up into edgeguards/grabs without the possibility of just getting shield grabbed, and a whole lot of not dying for falling short of perfection)

If fastfallers give DHD trouble, then why is Sheik good? Just because DHD can kill?

 

[|RK|]

Kirby 50:50? 0_0 I hate when sheiks say this, since its not true in the slightest. Oh hey we can duck under needles easy even MU lol NO it isnt

I know that people have hyped up ducking in the past, but that's a gross oversimplification of the reasons Kirby (theoretically) goes even with Sheik. Still a disadvantage for Kirby until proven otherwise (maybe a Mike Kirby vs Vinnie redux customs off can give us an idea), but still.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

As for your other points I can't really answer anything before you explain yourself, but there's nothing to suggest that Marth or Lucina, despite having some good tools, have more going for them than the ones above. Same for Shulk, whereas Bowser's up there because he not only has a decent neutral, but also two "kill throws" and good kill potential altogether. I think the lack of reliability killing is a major weakness in this game, and only characters who have a ton of other strengths can truly deal with it (even Yoshi and Pikachu struggle). The lack of grab reward is another major weakness a character can have, and Marth, Lucina and Shulk posses both of those weaknesses. Smash dthrow for Shulk isn't in my opinion enough, because Smash anything kills and activating it is usually a huge risk.

Marth, Lucina, and Shulk have no such trouble killing. Smash doesn't really change that much about Shulk, he already has the 23rd strongest (in terms of knockback) forward smash in the game without it. Also, Shield Breaker is a strong move regardless of charging. And if you manage to break a shield with it, that pretty much ends the stock right there. For Marth, he can kill very well using his tipping. I mean, Marth's tipped forward smash launches further than Ike's. Even a neutral aerial has high amounts of knockback at tip.

Marcina is speedy, with good frame data. Many of their attacks come out at frame 5 or 6. This allows them to rushdown, and it leads to them having many positive matchups. Falchion, while it's not as long as Ragnell, still grants them a lot of range, notable in their forward aerial. Speaking of the forward aerial, it makes a great gimping tool that almost always lands. Marcina also possesses high jumps that let them recover nearly any time they land a gimp successfully. The sword swings reach both horizontally and vertically, making them tricky to avoid. Dancing Blade aids their recovery slightly, and is virtually a one attack combo difficult to beat if used offensively. Even if they aren't able to generate enough knockback to KO, they can simply gimp. This works on many characters.

Shulk has quite a bit of starting and ending lag, but Bowser has lag as well, and is just about as easy to punish as Shulk is. The truth is, Shulk is one of the most balanced characters in the game. His attacks aren't easy to avoid once they actually come out, and Shulk can successfully use them as long as he has a bit of spacing. All he needs to do is cover his opponent's landing with an uncharged forward smash at a somewhat high percentage, and that's the game.

 

[TurboLink]

let's try this for fun!



slight disadvantage


even


slight advantage


advantage


heavy advantage

I'm sure Sheik is Meta Knight's worst machup.

And why are Charizard, Donkey Kong, Link, MegaMan, Bowser Jr., and R.O.B. in Advantage?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I know that people have hyped up ducking in the past, but that's a gross oversimplification of the reasons Kirby (theoretically) goes even with Sheik. Still a disadvantage for Kirby until proven otherwise (maybe a Mike Kirby vs Vinnie redux customs off can give us an idea), but still.

But that also means Jiggs, G&W, and Wii Fit have even MUs with Sheik too? Ducking helps, but the startup on needles is too fast to react to. you have to read a needle throw to avoid it.

 

[DunnoBro]

If fastfallers give DHD trouble, then why is Sheik good? Just because DHD can kill?

Pretty much. But also because she can't kill on reaction/punish like most fast fallers. DHD gets a looot of free damage but needs to take chances when killing, vs some characters that can spell death.

Fox and diddy are fast fallers but too small for dthrow set-ups to work as well.
Falcon is big and fast falling, but really heavy and kind of hard/scary to grab due to jab and his speed.

The general reason fast fallers are bad is because less time in the air = less time to set up, and duck hunt doesn't really have any combos that make you regret being a fast faller. In fact, dair sets up worse on fast fallers since I have to use usmash, which they can fall out of(and most can kill me when they do ). Uair on floaties/mids is much more reliable.

ZSS is actually probably doable too though for similar reasons, I'm not too familiar with the MU but I like how I can't be grabbed as a whiff punish for a lot of stuff. Can't really punish flip kick abuse though, that's annoying.

 

[FullMoon]

Pretty much. But also because she can't kill on reaction/punish like most fast fallers. DHD gets a looot of free damage but needs to take chances when killing, vs some characters that can spell death.

Fox and diddy are fast fallers but too small for dthrow set-ups to work as well.
Falcon is big and fast falling, but really heavy and kind of hard/scary to grab due to jab and his speed.

The general reason fast fallers are bad is because less time in the air = less time to set up, and duck hunt doesn't really have any combos that make you regret being a fast faller. In fact, dair sets up worse on fast fallers since I have to use usmash, which they can fall out of(and most can kill me when they do ). Uair on floaties/mids is much more reliable.

ZSS is actually probably doable too though for similar reasons, I'm not too familiar with the MU but I like how I can't be grabbed as a whiff punish for a lot of stuff. Can't really punish flip kick abuse though, that's annoying.

How do you feel about Greninja, out of curiosity? DHD is one of the MUs I'm not too sure on, judging from this it sounds like Greninja would have the advantage.

 

[Yonder]

Can someone remind me as to why Dedede is considered anything but bottom 5?

The best player in BC, my region is a DDD main...if that counts. He's insane. That's why I say he's bottom 10 myself.

 

[Nu~]

let's try this for fun!



slight disadvantage


even


slight advantage


advantage


heavy advantage

Still not buying pacman in advantage. He should be in slight advantage.

All of our projectiles + hydrant absorb needles so she can't force us to approach, and she has trouble launching the hydrant. We are also one of the only chasers that can threaten her recovery with melons to block the ledge or ledgeguarding with hydrant+trampoline traps.

Sheik always wins up close, but we can escape her combos easier than other characters because of our floaty nature and frame one escape option in the form of trampoline. She can uair through our hydrant though, so our disadvantage state is a lot more honest against her.

When it comes to our advantage state, Galaxian is cruel to her due to her physics. One hit can mean 35% (galaxian -> Nair -> jab+galaxian -> usmash). Sheik of course can still do sheik things to us (Fair x infinity into everything )


Fair -> key is a true combo against her and kills at around 110% center stage. Fair -> bell -> inky/blinky is harder to land, but kills much earlier. Sheik still has her 50:50's, but a frame 5 fair from us can spell death for her.


We're a lot better at relieving ourself of sheik's pressure than other zoners, and we gain a lot more than them from the set up time.

Edit: don't know if it means much, but abadango has said on stream that the pacman v sheik matchup is 45:55 (Admittably, it was right after he beat nietono and shu)

 

[DunnoBro]

How do you feel about Greninja, out of curiosity? DHD is one of the MUs I'm not too sure on, judging from this it sounds like Greninja would have the advantage.

Just won grands from losers side of Nova Knockout vs F.O.E's greninja.

I think it was bad pre-patch because my pressuring kit was incomplete. If I daired greninjas shield he could oos usmash, now I retain full frame advantage. And shuriken goes through my projectiles so not being able to efficiently pressure up close really hurt, I had to jump around a lot and try to set-up from the air. It was really awkward and scary just to establish a neutral. Now I could just approach.

He seemed to have a lot of trouble dealing with the shield pressure of dair and fair, Also duck hunt's natural damage output being higher and trick shot beating uair means if greninjas at higher percent than dhd it's risky trying to uair him high up.

My mario got bodied game 1, that MU feels really bad and the DHD MU felt really good. He did one set then after getting nearly jv3'd game 1 of set 2, he told me he never wants to do that mu again and pulled out some other chars lol

The dthrow set-ups don't work right on greninja at all and he gets out of delay shot frisbee at crucial combo percents a lot, his awkward hurtbox and slide definitely screws with my smashes too, but I edgeguard him really good and duck hunt's fair presents a similar issue that sheik's does for greninja, you don't really get to bait his air dodges due to it.

 

[Illuminose]

the reasoning behind kirby has very very little to do with crouching and more to do with kirby's physics (can't really get comboed) and ability to wreck sheik with her own strings. the needles copy ability is absurd if they get the inhale also.

ike shoulda been in advantage idk what I was tripping on.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Suuuper-late, but:

Spoiler: Re: Palu VS Pac

Reflect is trivial in the matchup because we can pellet heal off of any reflected fruit that isn't key or galaxian. We can actually walk up and pellet heal off of the reflector itself. Hell, Apple, bell, and hydrants can fly over it. Counter is much more effective for dealing with our zoning, but even then, you still can't get in safely.

I don't see how being able to land F-air/B-air, DA and U-tilt is exclusive to the pacman matchup. Our frame data is much better than yours, we win in CQC, and our traps work just fine on her.

Why would we reflect any non-Key/Galaxian fruit? It's not worth it most of the time, just block or grab and hold on to it for as long as possible. Most of Palutena's best moves are her aerials anyways. It's not difficult to swat Pac away when he tries to approach (Even Reflect can stop him from approaching with aerials, which is kinda funny). We don't struggle to approach Pac and we don't really have to worry about being shieldgrabbed if we space F-air/B-air poorly and he blocks them. Palutena's a lot more mobile than Pac too so it's not hard to stay close to him and stop him from setting stuff up.

The reason why I specifically mentioned U-tilt is because Pac struggles to end stocks sometimes and it can kill surprisingly early Rage.

As for things flying over Reflect? Shorthop>Reflect for Hydrant, depends on the angle for the Apple, don't even bother with the Bell.

Overall it's a really really weird matchup but it seems pretty even to me, I highly doubt it's hard for either. There's not much highish-level footage of this matchup for obvious reasons but I did manage to find this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDoljF5n3EA

At this point I realize Palutena's jab is f7 and not f8 the latter of which is how I remembered it. Not a huge difference though as it still means her fastest normal is no faster than her grab

Not sure if you're saying that Palutena's Jab is her fastest ground attack but it sounds like it so just in case you are, Dash Attack's hitbox comes out frame 6. When contesting moves it technically beats things sooner than that because it's invincible starting on frame 4.

Her dtilt is safer than I recalled, but it definitely doesn't set up into anything. Utilt and ftilt seem to have very little utility to me, anti-air and punish maybe?

D-tilt can lead to Jab Locks with Auto Reticle at lower %s if they miss the tech (works at higher %s on stages like BF). It sets up for a D-air if you hit someone with it while they're offstage or hanging on the ledge. It also outright kills Mario at the tip of the ledge somewhere around 115% with some Rage on SV. Not too scary killpower-wise but it's something, I suppose.

As for U-tilt, it's actually really useful in quite a few situations after all the buffs to it. It's her fastest tilt by far and it becomes pretty strong with Rage. For reference, it starts killing mid-weights at 120% with 70% Rage on FD (basically a slightly weaker Mewtwo U-throw). You can (kinda?) true-combo into it from Jab around 100% without Rage on all but a few characters. Works earlier with Rage, of course. That's a pretty potent kill-confirm for us. The move eats rolls, spotdodges, and ledge getup options because of how long it lasts. It's transcendent and it lowers her hurtbox so it beats things it wouldn't otherwise.

F-tilt is just sad and most of what it does, our other moves do waaay better, really. I guess it's notable for doing some decent shield damage???????

It does work on a few characters, but the large majority can avoid it by DI'ing away and there's never any reason they shouldn't if they're at kill percents. The biggest reason it's so good with lightweight (in addition to the fact that it works on everyone) is that Palutena jumps so high while uairing them they die pretty much 30% earlier.

According to AeroLink there are some very specific %s where D-throw>U-air is pretty much guaranteed or at least a 50/50 on most characters????????? Idk, I still doubt this is a thing but lately he's been landing it from time to time even against smaller characters despite the fact that most people who frequent Shockwave know what to do when Palutena D-throws them.

 

[FullMoon]

Just won grands from losers side of Nova Knockout vs F.O.E's greninja.

I think it was bad pre-patch because my pressuring kit was incomplete. If I daired greninjas shield he could oos usmash, now I retain full frame advantage. And shuriken goes through my projectiles so not being able to efficiently pressure up close really hurt, I had to jump around a lot and try to set-up from the air. It was really awkward and scary just to establish a neutral. Now I could just approach.

He seemed to have a lot of trouble dealing with the shield pressure of dair and fair, Also duck hunt's natural damage output being higher and trick shot beating uair means if greninjas at higher percent than dhd it's risky trying to uair him high up.

My mario got bodied game 1, that MU feels really bad and the DHD MU felt really good. He did one set then after getting nearly jv3'd game 1 of set 2, he told me he never wants to do that mu again and pulled out some other chars lol

The dthrow set-ups don't work right on greninja at all and he gets out of delay shot frisbee at crucial combo percents a lot, his awkward hurtbox and slide definitely screws with my smashes too, but I edgeguard him really good and duck hunt's fair presents a similar issue that sheik's does for greninja, you don't really get to bait his air dodges due to it.

That's interesting (I don't even know who F.O.E is lol), I have very little experience with that MU myself but I often saw DHD mains saying that Greninja won but I was never too sure about that.

 

[Trifroze]

Marth, Lucina, and Shulk have no such trouble killing. Smash doesn't really change that much about Shulk, he already has the 23rd strongest (in terms of knockback) forward smash in the game without it. Also, Shield Breaker is a strong move regardless of charging. And if you manage to break a shield with it, that pretty much ends the stock right there. For Marth, he can kill very well using his tipping. I mean, Marth's tipped forward smash launches further than Ike's. Even a neutral aerial has high amounts of knockback at tip.

Marcina is speedy, with good frame data. Many of their attacks come out at frame 5 or 6. This allows them to rushdown, and it leads to them having many positive matchups. Falchion, while it's not as long as Ragnell, still grants them a lot of range, notable in their forward aerial. Speaking of the forward aerial, it makes a great gimping tool that almost always lands. Marcina also possesses high jumps that let them recover nearly any time they land a gimp successfully. The sword swings reach both horizontally and vertically, making them tricky to avoid. Dancing Blade aids their recovery slightly, and is virtually a one attack combo difficult to beat if used offensively. Even if they aren't able to generate enough knockback to KO, they can simply gimp. This works on many characters.

Shulk has quite a bit of starting and ending lag, but Bowser has lag as well, and is just about as easy to punish as Shulk is. The truth is, Shulk is one of the most balanced characters in the game. His attacks aren't easy to avoid once they actually come out, and Shulk can successfully use them as long as he has a bit of spacing. All he needs to do is cover his opponent's landing with an uncharged forward smash at a somewhat high percentage, and that's the game.

When it comes to Marth's aerials, back air is on the weaker end compared to other back airs when it comes to killing, and nair kills even later (around 150% on Mario center stage). Forward air can't be considered a kill move when you need close to 200% to kill with it, but uair kills quite early (~130%). All these assume tippers, and you're not going to get them a lot of the time since spacing isn't only dependent on you, it's also dependent on your opponent, relating to fsmash and shield breaker as well. Dancing blade is a dysfunctional move with hits missing especially if you go for the vertical finish, and dolphin slash doesn't really kill either. If only they did. Lucina has it even worse, but while her fsmash lacks the tipper clutch factor it's better in many situations where you're presented with a punish chance that you'd miss if you took the time to space properly. Gimping is something that they can indeed do, but I feel like this is always the final crutch and doesn't really amount to any sort of reliable KO capability since it's heavily matchup and read dependent. What your argument made me realize though is that shield breaker is quite a good move when spaced, however I'm still anything but convinced Marth let alone Lucina doesn't have trouble killing (Lucina in particular because of aerials and Marth's SB tipper being so much stronger than Lucina's SB). You'll see Marth kill at 50% sometimes, but compare it to all the times he struggles until around 150%.

I could say almost the same things about Shulk, just that his aerials are considerably slower, but uair and bair are also quite a lot stronger. His smashes kill well enough and come out relatively fast but they're punishable, and when you have to rely on smashes to kill, unless it's a Mario/Doc/Luigi smash (both fast and safe) you tend to end up in situations where your opponent knows it's your only option and they can avoid and punish it until you die first, or more preferably for you, you have to deal some extra hits and kill with something else and often take damage or die yourself in the process when you inevitably lose some of those exchanges.

Smashes I think are a considerable factor for kill capability only when they're safe or when you have setups into them. They're just a small bonus otherwise. Contradictorily they're often better if you also have other kill options to threaten and occupy the opponent's mind with, but at the same time if you do have other kill options you really shouldn't be throwing out many smashes anyway. Fox's up smash is the most extreme example of a smash that's arguably almost overpowered as a single punish option because of its speed and power, but even he can't just solely rely on that because he needs a punish or a successful read to connect with it safely because of its long cooldown, and the opponent is doing all they can to avoid it. Even though he still has some setups into it, Fox can struggle with killing sometimes and he's by no means bad at it. Smashes just don't take you far. Aerials, grabs, projectiles and setups starting from safe hits do. What really hurts Marth, Lucina and Shulk is the fact that not only do they mainly have to rely on smashes to kill, but you can also abuse shield against them because of their low grab rewards. Shieldbreaker can arguably almost always be rolled on reaction as it's 19 frames.

Not sure if you're saying that Palutena's Jab is her fastest ground attack but it sounds like it so just in case you are, Dash Attack's hitbox comes out frame 6. When contesting moves it technically beats things sooner than that because it's invincible starting on frame 4.

D-tilt can lead to Jab Locks with Auto Reticle at lower %s if they miss the tech (works at higher %s on stages like BF). It sets up for a D-air if you hit someone with it while they're offstage or hanging on the ledge. It also outright kills Mario at the tip of the ledge somewhere around 115% with some Rage on SV. Not too scary killpower-wise but it's something, I suppose.

As for U-tilt, it's actually really useful in quite a few situations after all the buffs to it. It's her fastest tilt by far and it becomes pretty strong with Rage. For reference, it starts killing mid-weights at 120% with 70% Rage on FD (basically a slightly weaker Mewtwo U-throw). You can (kinda?) true-combo into it from Jab around 100% without Rage on all but a few characters. Works earlier with Rage, of course. The move eats rolls, spotdodges, and ledge getup options because of how long it lasts. It's transcendent and it lowers her hurtbox so it beats things it wouldn't otherwise.

F-tilt is just sad and most of what it does, our other moves do waaay better, really. I guess it's notable for doing some decent shield damage???????

According to AeroLink there are some very specific %s where D-throw>U-air is pretty much guaranteed or at least a 50/50 on most characters????????? Idk, I still doubt this is a thing but lately he's been landing it from time to time even against smaller characters despite the fact that most people who frequent Shockwave know what to do when Palutena D-throws them.

Palutena's DA is frame 6 but you need to start a dash first meaning a minimum of 1 extra frame, so even that is a 7 frame option. I'll now take back what I said about her tilts, but I'd still call them below average overall.

Regarding dthrow to uair, all I can urge you to do is to try it with DI and airdodging with slowed down speed in training mode. I guarantee it straight up doesn't work on most characters at kill percents (or otherwise), and often you don't even need to airdodge for that. It may work on floaties.

 

[rrrRandy]

Am I late to the matchup chart party? Too bad, I spent too long writing this to not post it.

vs. everyone:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
(Characters are not ordered in any way.)

Spoiler: Brief Explanations on Every Character

-3:
Zero Suit Samus is by far Charizard's worst matchup. Charizard is easily juggled, and Zero Suit's damage output and kill power are just about as good as Charizard's, while also having insane mobility and safety. I could go at length with everything wrong about the matchup, but then I'd be here all day. Zero Suit Samus is actually just an objectively better character in nearly every aspect.

-2:
PAC-MAN is hard to maintain stage control against for various reasons, and the slow-moving lingering hitboxes that are Bonus Fruit tend to interrupt Charizard's main form of approach, i.e. dashing into whatever. Z-drop shenanigans also provide a lot of shield pressure that Charizard doesn't like dealing with, mainly because he likes having a shield.
Sheik is Sheik, not much to say specifically. It's not actually as bad a matchup as ZSS because you get to take about 10 times as many hits before dying. Being able to consistently live up to 150% is nice.
The PK Fire matchup is unwinnable. Ness has a really easy time keeping Charizard off-stage, and there's not much Charizard has against Ness outside of range advantage on normals.
Meta Knight is just a worse Zero Suit Samus. Similar issues with getting juggled to death, but Meta Knight is actually punishable, and he doesn't really kill you outside of up-airs into up-B. But if he does land an up-air, you're probably dying.
Peach can cover all of Charizard's aerial and ledge options safely. Which is a problem when Peach is never on the ground. Charizard does have the option of playing more defensively and just punishing when necessary, but turnips are a thing, so you're going to have to go in eventually.
Greninja has the ability to persistently annoy Charizard in any situation, and Charizard has a lot of trouble punishing anything Greninja does. Also, Hydro Pump beats Fly.
For a character who gains a lot from shielding and punishing, a character that will intentionally attack your shield because it's safe, such as Sonic, is a pretty bad time. Sonic's speed also lets him punish pretty much everything Charizard does.
Luma's up-air beats Charizard. Outside of that, the matchup's not too bad; Charizard actually has some really good options for killing Luma, and has better ground mobility than Rosalina. It's just that being in the air for any reason while a Luma is in play almost equates to losing a stock.
Pit is a safe character with large disjoints. Charizard is an unsafe character with mild disjoints. Not much to say.
Dedede outranges, outdamages and outlives Charizard. However, if Charizard can get a grab off, Dedede can get combo'd pretty hard, to the point where I'd say the matchup is even or possibly in Charizard's favour. Until we consider Gordos, which absolutely destroy Charizard. Basically, if Charizard gets hit into the air, Gordos will make it so he takes at least 30% on his way back down.

-1:
Diddy can rack up damage really quickly on Charizard, and is overall a pain to deal with in the air. A good thing for Charizard though is that Diddy takes a while to kill you. On the other hand, Charizard has a pretty easy time gimping Diddy, though rather unsafe.
Ike's big, damaging sword can give Charizard a lot of trouble, and it's hard to shake him off when he's on top of you. Though, in my opinion at least, Charizard wins the ground game, and Ike's linear (in a literal sense) recovery lets Charizard fairly comfortably edgeguard Ike and maintain stage control.
Yoshi just kinda does whatever the hell he wants in the air above you, and there's not a lot Charizard can do about that. Charizard wins quite handily on the ground though, and Yoshi's limited recovery options make him really easy to edgeguard. Flamethrower for free % can be jumped through, so that's not as much of a thing as it is in other matchups.
Mario juggles Charizard all day on the stages Charizard usually likes, but Charizard massively outranges Mario, and it's a pretty simple fight on the ground. Mario having next to no lag on anything can make it hard to kill him though, so Charizard is going to have to fight him for a while.
Fox has fast kill moves and ground speed, so I'm just going to assume Fox beats Charizard. Comboing Fox is easy, but messing up will cost you a stock a lot earlier than it would in similar matchups.
Robin gets a lot out of using Arcfire or Arcthunder on Charizard's shield, and that's what it'll usually be hitting since Charizard doesn't really have a lot of options to get over them. Robin is really easy to beat up though, and then also really easy to edgeguard if you get him off-stage. Dunk city.
Duck Hunt can very easily wall you out with all his stuff, and you'll have a really hard time getting in at all. If you do get in though, you put yourself in a prime position to take a stock really fast, because Duck Hunt's recovery is complete trash. Duck Hunt also doesn't kill anything, so you'll get a lot of tries at it.
Villager can similarly harass and wall Charizard, but not to nearly the same extent. Getting in also isn't quite as rewarding, and Villager actually has kill moves. Charizard has some really good answers to repeated ledge snaps and recoveries with no hitbox though.
The Mega Man matchup is probably a lot like the PAC-MAN matchup, except Mega Man's pressure tools just overall do less damage and are thus less of a worry for Charizard to deal with. Flare Blitz also won't clank with any of Mega Man's stuff unlike Bonus Fruit, and Mega Man doesn't have a super-armoured kill recovery side-B to prevent him from being edgeguarded easily. Mega Man does have more consistent kill moves that Charizard will have to look out for, though.
Palutena only has one strategy (jab, grab, aerial followup). Problem is, the strategy works really well on Charizard, since he's a fat dude that will still be hit by down-throw to up-air at kill %. Palutena's up-smash also hurts for Charizard.
Captain Falcon hits as hard/harder than Charizard, and doesn't have to commit to anything the way Charizard does. The saving grace in this matchup is that Charizard can edgeguard the hell out of Falcon; you could be getting juggled really hard by a bunch of Falcon up-airs, but all you'd need to do to even it up is get Falcon off-stage once.
Toon Link is annoying, and has kill set-ups that work reasonably well coming off his camp game. What Charizard can abuse is Toon Link's really poor landing game, since he really has no safe ways to get to the ground with his combination of landing lag and autocancel windows, and Charizard has plenty of ways to capitalise on unsafe landings.
Wii Fit Trainer has a pretty damaging combo game that Charizard is quite vulnerable to, and has a lot of projectiles to give Charizard a hard time. Charizard massively outranging Wii Fit isn't that important when Wii Fit has Wii Fit's mobility specs, but it does make fighting her somewhat tolerable. It's not an objectively terrible matchup, but you really have to be on point to win it.

0:
Bowser hits harder. Charizard hits and moves faster. The only reason this matchup isn't actually in Charizard's favour is that Bowser is really threatening to shields, so Charizard is not able to rely on his shield as much as he usually does.
Wario is a weird one. His aerial mobility can make it difficult for Charizard to swat him out of the air, and Chomp is a really good answer to someone waiting in shield for Wario to land. Charizard has a pretty significant range advantage, and Wario has no ways to force Charizard to approach, but forward-smash and Waft are big punishes that Charizard has to watch out for if he does mess up. (And it's really easy to mess up with Charizard.)
Little Mac stops you from landing, and your ground game loses to his speed in general. What's helpful is Charizard's huge standing grab range and edgeguarding game that makes it really easy to get Mac off-stage and gimp him. There will be a lot of retreating to the ledge.
I will admit I'm not very knowledgeable regarding Olimar, but I'm under the impression that Charizard's strong disjoints and weight make him less affected by Olimar's usual advantages; Charizard has a pretty easy time dealing with Pikmin, and Olimar will die quite early. I haven't played against any Olimars or watched much high level Olimar play though, so I'm hesitant to say either character wins or loses.
Pikachu can juggle Charizard pretty hard, no doubt about that. The difference between Pikachu's juggles and a lot of others though is that Pikachu's juggles do negligible amounts of damage; since Charizard won't be escaping any juggles from anyone, what really matters is how much % you get off a juggle. Charizard also massively outranges Pikachu, and can combo him quite well off a throw, as well as kill him super early. Pikachu's fast, but not extremely safe, so this matchup is surprisingly manageable.
Marth et al. are pretty even and fun matchups. Neither character has a significant range advantage, and both can get away with their usual shenanigans without being extremely vulnerable to the other's. Marth (and manly Marth, and fire Marth) are generally faster with their attacks, but Charizard gets more off each individual hit.
The difference between Luigi and Mario is that Mario beats you up and Luigi beats you into the ground. Charizard is far better at dealing with being combo'd into the ground than juggled into the air, and so Charizard's range advantage on the ground can really come into play in this matchup due to Luigi's poor overall mobility. Edgeguarding is also a lot easier. The matchup still isn't in Charizard's favour though because Luigi's frame data is far superior, and up-B is a pretty good punish for Charizard's extremely laggy moves.
Jigglypuff will die to pretty much anything you hit her with, but Jigglypuff can Rest on pretty much anything you whiff. There's not really any stage control to win, or any edgeguarding to do. The disjoints don't mean as much when the lag on them is enough for you to get slept on, and the damage output per hit and kill %s are actually really similar on both sides.
R.O.B.'s projectile game is actually rather weak to dash-in powershielding (though it is still pretty annoying to deal with regardless), so Charizard's high dash speed and superior close-up ground game can really put in work in this matchup. Both characters are big heavy dudes that have a bit of trouble dealing with juggles; Charizard probably has a stronger landing coverage game, and R.O.B. probably has safer landing options, and both characters have a killing up-air to work with. Edgeguarding R.O.B. is almost free, though he does have a reasonably safe option in recovering high.
Lucario can't really kill Charizard until Lucario is at kill % himself. When he is though, Aura Sphere is a major annoyance to Charizard because of its low speed and large size. Outside of that, the usual "Charizard outranges but isn't as safe" applies.
Ryu has no actual safe way of approaching Charizard, in my experience. A combination of Flamethrower and up-smash applied correctly can shut Ryu out quite effectively, and Charizard has a slight edge in terms of range on normals. Ryu's reward when getting in is just high enough such that if Charizard chooses the wrong defensive option, Ryu can easily take back a lead. Ryu also has a much easier time sealing a stock. Both characters are reasonably threatening to each other; Charizard's slightly longer range is evened out by Ryu's relative safety and the fact that Charizard has to be the one reacting to Ryu in most situations.
Lucas can annoy Charizard with Z-air and PK Fire quite well. For Lucas to win he basically has to camp Charizard out forever, since once Charizard gets in Lucas doesn't have much he can use to fight back. Not entirely sure whether this matchup is even or in Charizard's favour, but I'd like to give Lucas the benefit of the doubt.

+1:
Donkey Kong and Charizard are both pretty good at keeping each other off the ground, and Donkey Kong is probably at way more of an advantage when it comes to a grounded vs. aerial situation. Rock Smash, however, due to Donkey Kong's notoriously useless shield, puts in a lot of work in this matchup, and Charizard generally has an easier time recovering from off-stage against Donkey Kong than the reverse.
Ganondorf outdamages Charizard significantly, and is quite threatening to shields, preventing Charizard from rushing in at him. But Charizard slightly outranges Ganondorf, and Ganondorf is just as weak to Flamethrower as Captain Falcon, maybe even weaker since he has a much harder time getting past it when it is thrown out in neutral. Making a mistake is still extremely costly though, which is why this matchup isn't skewed ridiculously in Charizard's favour.
Dr. Mario is just a less threatening Luigi with worse recovery and a worse projectile. He's still got Mario frame data though, so Charizard can still have a little bit of trouble.
Bowser Jr. doesn't really have approach options, but the Clown Cannon and Mechakoopa are stronger camping tools than Flamethrower could ever be. Flamethrower is a fantastic gimping tool though, and edgeguarding horizontally is quite simple. Neither character really has a significant advantage on the ground or in the air, otherwise.
Link's Bow, Bombs and grab can be a bit of a bother, but Link really doesn't have the frame data or mobility to stop Charizard from doing his thing once he gets through a couple of projectiles. Edgeguarding Link with Flamethrower is just like edgeguarding Falcon and Ganon in that you can either gimp him with hitting it at maximum range, or just repeatedly hit him out of his up-B for free damage and potentially force him to land on-stage for you to punish.
Mewtwo's a big light guy that gets killed really easily and has no particularly safe landing options. Shadow Ball is far less of an issue than Aura Sphere. Teleport is actually also quite easy to gimp with Flamethrower, and Mewtwo is a really big target to otherwise edgeguard. Mewtwo does also kill reasonably early, but because of the weight difference, Mewtwo is far less dangerous to Charizard than Charizard is to Mewtwo.
Kirby is very light with no mobility, no range and no projectiles to force approaches with. Kirby does have some decent ways to rack up damage and also some pretty strong kill moves, but it's beyond me how the Kirby player could get in to use any of that unless the Charizard makes plenty of mistakes.
Game & Watch has mobility and disjoints unlike Kirby, but lacks consistent kill set-ups. And honestly, unless you have ridiculous frame data and/or deadly juggles, the huge weight difference actually means a lot, since Charizard will generally be doing a lot of trading, or simply taking hits until an opportunity presents itself.
Falco is Fox without the killing and the ground mobility. What's left is a bird that gets completely outranged in close quarters with slow moves and slow movement that doesn't take a lot of hits.
Shulk's a really bad character that really just doesn't have the frame data to keep out a character with ground speed and range like Charizard. At least he has kill power and some mobility of his own, sometimes.
Samus is pretty bad too, and doesn't really threaten Charizard with anything other than Charge Shot and a tether grab. Samus certainly doesn't have any fast or safe options to keep Charizard off her. A heavy slow falling character is pretty easy for Charizard to beat up on.