Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

He'll take less KB (less hitstun); yes it would work. But how much time does switching to Shield take? If you get dash attacked and you try then, you probably don't have enough time. We'll have to see footage of it.

Switching from one to the next takes a frame or so, but that's not human mashing time... Maybe two seconds at most for it to kick in after that?

 

[Radical Larry]

I really feel like MK is that one character that's a trickster in this game. Like all the Kirby characters he has generally sluggish air speed, being the 32nd (below average) in air speed (1 to 27 is average and above average). He also has a light, large body that is actually relatively easy to juggle.

But then he has a good recovery tactic, cheap specials that you need to practice going against and he has good moves. But the thing is, he restricts himself to not using almost all his moves and only various combos. We know his infamous U-Air > U-Spec combo, but DI can definitely help out a character and get them out of the attack; some characters like Ganondorf can even punish MK heavily if he doesn't connect fully (Wizard's Foot at high damages just kills).

He also has that range on his sword and benefits from stages that aren't Final Destination stages; his U-Throw benefits heavily from Battlefield, and so do his combos. So Meta Knight is a very stage based character; so if you want to damage him a bit, pick a stage without an upper platform that's easily accessible; Final Destination is a good pick, and Duck Hunt is the complete opposite.

What is it to Meta Knight that makes him way too good though?
And what's the MU and analysis between him vs Link, Ganondorf, Samus and Ike? Any insight?

 

[NegaNixx]

In my experience the matchup as Metaknight Vs. Ganondorf is significantly in MK's favour. It's one of the few match ups where MK wins neutral and he can kill Ganon earlier than Ganon can kill him. There's no need to rush an approach as MK can just sort of hang back in Mid Range until Ganon over commits to something. Ganon offstage is dead, Ganon above MK is taking heavy damage or is dead.

We can't chill out and toss out D-Airs from above though, U-Smash from Ganon is too scary to risk it. But if there's a top platform ala Battlefield and Dreamlanf we can just... wait it out assuming we're in the lead. What can Ganon really do to us up there that isn't telegraphed (Double Jump U-Air) or insignificant (Up B)?

It's just not fun for the King of Darkness.

I don't like Link though. I haven't faced enough to have a solid opinion on the match up. I just don't like it.

I know Samus dies really early to U-Air->Shuttle Loop strings but besides that I haven't played the match up once. I haven't faced Ike at all.

 

[Scarhi]

He'll take less KB (less hitstun); yes it would work. But how much time does switching to Shield take? If you get dash attacked and you try then, you probably don't have enough time. We'll have to see footage of it.

I don't know if you have enough time but a good alternative is to alternate between Shield Art (less hitstun taken) and Smash Art (more knockback taken) when Shulk is at percentages in which DA > Uair strings true combo (between 20 and 50%, I believe ?), and go back to your standard Arts rotation when the death combo isn't a threat anymore. It worked pretty consistently against the MK players I fought lately.

Additionally, Shulk can use Smash Art in a similar fashion to escape Sheik's Dthrow 50/50s and BF setups (sourspot Nair > BF), and doing so can live until ~170-180% pretty consistently against her if the player makes good use of his shield bubble.

 

[Mario766]

The Ike MU is even. It takes more effort from the Ike player though.

It'll come down to does MK kill early off the top.

If not, Ike should have the advantage

If so, well. We know how it goes.

 

[Jamurai]

MK only loses to characters who can actually abuse his neutral and take advantage of his combo weight. The only characters who can do this properly are Sheik and ZSS (because MK's neutral is really not bad at all). Greninja is a special case because he invalidates Shuttle Loop and Uairs with his hitstun cancelling shenanigans, forcing us to change our ways drastically.

MK loses:

More or less even:
(going from slightly opponent favour to slightly MK favour)

We beat the rest imo, to varying degrees of severity. MK's matchups are significantly influenced by how easy it is to pull off the death combo. Ergo big floaties have the hardest time vs us, including Rosa, DK and Samus.

Edit: I was informed that we actually beat Pac, my b.

 

[Jehtt]

I always remember hearing that Sonic was one of MK's harder matchups. Have general opinions on that changed?

 

[DavemanCozy]

I don't really check this thread anymore, like once every few weeks? Gheb vs Yoshi's has gone on so many times in this thread alone it's almost hilarious.

I know about the arguments. They were done in the Fox MU thread too. Even a Bowser Jr. main got involved in that debate when I brought up the mu for rediscussion. Yoshi vs Fox MU discussion has been volatile since it started.

Yoshi's believe -1 for us, Fox mains had it as -3/4 early on in the Diddy era and some have changed to -1 which is good enough I guess, they still appear to think Yoshi's kill set ups or raw kill moves are better and stronger than Fox's.
It usually only feels stronger from our side cause rage and our weight keeps us from dying early to fox since they're too used to Up smashing non-heavies like sheik zss diddy mario Rosalina etc. (actual top tiers basically), while if we were to say get a DownB on fox somehow with our few telegraphed kill moves since we can only kill vertically, they'll most likely die around 70% before factoring in the 19% from downb of course so technically 85-95% from max rage downB?

I do remember a lot of Foxes thought it was one of the hardest. I myself started the discussion with even.

I think you give too little credit to your character in the mu, tbh, he's one of those characters that is quite hard to land a KO move on, and it's not just U-smash that I'm talking about. I hear a lot of people say Yoshi doesn't have any guaranteed KO setups either though, so I guess it might come down to the same for Yoshi's in the MU? To me it seems like the Foxes are focusing on how their weaknesses are exploited by Yoshi while the Yoshis do the reverse when discussing the MU.

If either side has an advantage then it's probably not that big anyways. I'll leave it at even and move on.

 

[warionumbah2]

Leo winning another national, this was during mlg

GF isnt up yet but metaknight vs sonic happened https://m.youtube.com/user/SoAxable

 

[Radical Larry]

In my experience the matchup as Metaknight Vs. Ganondorf is significantly in MK's favour. It's one of the few match ups where MK wins neutral and he can kill Ganon earlier than Ganon can kill him. There's no need to rush an approach as MK can just sort of hang back in Mid Range until Ganon over commits to something. Ganon offstage is dead, Ganon above MK is taking heavy damage or is dead.

We can't chill out and toss out D-Airs from above though, U-Smash from Ganon is too scary to risk it. But if there's a top platform ala Battlefield and Dreamlanf we can just... wait it out assuming we're in the lead. What can Ganon really do to us up there that isn't telegraphed (Double Jump U-Air) or insignificant (Up B)?

It's just not fun for the King of Darkness.

I don't like Link though. I haven't faced enough to have a solid opinion on the match up. I just don't like it.

I know Samus dies really early to U-Air->Shuttle Loop strings but besides that I haven't played the match up once. I haven't faced Ike at all.

"What can Ganon really do to us up there that isn't telegraphed or insignificant?"
U-Smash shield poke or hit confirm, Tomahawk baiting for Meta Knight to try dodging, SH F-Air, SH RAR B-Air, Double Jump Fake, Double Jump Flame Choke, SH U-Air shield poking.

And don't forget that Ganondorf, if he even grabs MK, can seriously dish out damage with a combo if he truly commits to one. And if you put Ganondorf in a vertical state, you risk the chance to get hit by a late Wizard's Foot if you don't hit him correctly, which can get MK KO'd in the process.

MK's one of the characters that Ganondorf can actually successfully follow up Flame Choke with F-Tilt, which is devastating to MK because of its knockback, MK's weight and the reach of the attack calculated by MK's large body. And don't think that just because Ganondorf is off stage, you have the true right to gimp him; if you do one wrong move, you may end up being Flame Choked to a Suicide grab.

 

[DblCrest]

I know Peach and Ike pretty much **** on Kirby, but I REALLY need a proper explanation as to how Mewtwo has such a good matchup against him, because I'm not seeing it at all right now.

Not so sure on him doing so well against Doc either.

Hope it's not as bad as when fighting Yoshi...

 

[NegaNixx]

"What can Ganon really do to us up there that isn't telegraphed or insignificant?"
U-Smash shield poke or hit confirm, Tomahawk baiting for Meta Knight to try dodging, SH F-Air, SH RAR B-Air, Double Jump Fake, Double Jump Flame Choke, SH U-Air shield poking.

And don't forget that Ganondorf, if he even grabs MK, can seriously dish out damage with a combo if he truly commits to one. And if you put Ganondorf in a vertical state, you risk the chance to get hit by a late Wizard's Foot if you don't hit him correctly, which can get MK KO'd in the process.

MK's one of the characters that Ganondorf can actually successfully follow up Flame Choke with F-Tilt, which is devastating to MK because of its knockback, MK's weight and the reach of the attack calculated by MK's large body. And don't think that just because Ganondorf is off stage, you have the true right to gimp him; if you do one wrong move, you may end up being Flame Choked to a Suicide grab.

On the Top platform? Of Dreamland or Battlefield? I might not know much but I know damn well Ganon isn't reaching with U-Smash up there. As for the others Metaknight can just escape when he sees Ganon Double jump as he has to commit to that.

The rest of the post is implying that the MK isn't using true combos like the U-Air strings and is following nonsensically or is directly in line for the flame choke suicide. Metaknight can just pester with D-Airs off stage. Out of chokes reach.

Ganon punishes our mistakes hard I won't deny that but we can definitely lame him out safely on stages with platforms. Assuming stages with high platforms.

 

[Megamang]

Most of those things, especially flame choke suicide, are stopped cold via butter knife.

...


Pika is a character which must play differently in many matchups, to a greater extent than many i find. Vs ROB, our sh airs are excellent for robot pokes. Mario essentially forces us to stay grounded in neutral.

But his options flow equisitely. PP utilt carries pika towards you, and faces him backwards... utilt in general is crazy good, since its hitbox is great and utilt uair bair does 15+ and combos for a while. Dtilt can trip, and is IASA 10 frames after the hitbox, better than most jabs and pretty much unpunishable shielded if spaced at all. Ftilt combos from fair and can kill at high damage.

Another thing never brought up, pikas pummel is great. High damage for the speed, and all kinds of DI traps from throws means you cant use the stick to break reliably, unless you rapidly input upright right downright or something... pika might have best tilts, tho obviously fox zss shiek all have a claim to this. Probably some others. Also, lumas are worse on shield now? Did anyone ever get to the bottom of that?

 

[Smog Frog]

cant have the best tilts when exists.

 

[Yikarur]

Little Macs tilts are not the best.

 

[Smog Frog]

what tilts are better? the only set i can think of that rivals it is .

 

[Mario766]

Macs tilts would be better if they were more safe on shield.

 

[Blobface]

In fact, with shadow balls and Mewtwo running circles around Ganon he has little trouble performing the strategy that Ganon hates: forcing him to make the first move.

Ganon does not hate approaching. He's certainly not good at it, but it's not this all-encompassing weakness.

What is Ganon's all-encompassing weakness is his crappy CQC. How is Mewtwo going to exploit that?

This is the third time in a week a super lightweight character has been said to win against Ganon so here's a rule to live by: If your weight is Olimar or lower and your name is not Rosalina you lose against Ganon. The end.

I can't see MK vs Ganon being that bad, but it's definitely in MK's favor.

 

[TurboLink]

I thought his down and side tilts were safe on shield when spaced.

 

[DanGR]

Kirby and Swordfighter both have a hilariously good set of tilts. Doesn't touch Ryu though.

 

[NegaNixx]

I was playing around with them and in general all the Miis have a solid set of tilts. I can't think of one that wouldn't be used in a match, their CQC game is pretty good far as I can see. Even Gunner with their slower ones can function up close.

 

[adom4]

Ganondorf's F-tilt & D-tilt are some of the best of their class, but his U-tilt is well, his U-tilt lol.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I was playing around with them and in general all the Miis have a solid set of tilts. I can't think of one that wouldn't be used in a match, their CQC game is pretty good far as I can see. Even Gunner with their slower ones can function up close.

Gunner's F-Tilt seems like utter ****, but its D-Tilt and U-Tilt are pretty good, with U-Tilt having a surprising amount of knock back.

R.I.P. Samus' D-Tilt from Brawl

Hope it's not as bad as when fighting Yoshi...

Really don't think that's the case; I can see instances where Mewtwo has the advantage, but there's nothing in the match-up that I see that makes it so hopeless for Kirby. Mewtwo MAY have the upper-hand, but I see it as closer to even more than anything.

 

[DblCrest]

Gunner's F-Tilt seems like utter ****, but its D-Tilt and U-Tilt are pretty good, with U-Tilt having a surprising amount of knock back.

R.I.P. Samus' D-Tilt from Brawl



Really don't think that's the case; I can see instances where Mewtwo has the advantage, but there's nothing in the match-up that I see that makes it so hopeless for Kirby. Mewtwo MAY have the upper-hand, but I see it as closer to even more than anything.

Oh I'm not worried about the Mewtwo one I meant the Peach and Ike ones XD

 

[KirbySquad101]

Oh I'm not worried about the Mewtwo one I meant the Peach and Ike ones XD

Oh, those two... yeah, they're pretty bad. DX

We don't have the speed to challenge/punish Ike's disjointed range, while Eruption pretty much ****s on any attempts for us to recover. That, and Ike pretty much always wins in trade-offs. Coupled with Ike's stupid kill power and Kirby's light weight and... yeah, you get the idea.

Peach is somewhat more manageable as her mobility or range aren't as good as Ike's and we have an easier time killing her, but she can still wall us out with her floating, and pretty much makes our attempts to approach her a living nightmare.

I can imagine Ike's match-up being close to Yoshi's in terms of "badness", but probably not for Peach. I would say -1 for her, while Ike's is probably -2 or 1.5 or something.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ganon does not hate approaching. He's certainly not good at it, but it's not this all-encompassing weakness.

What is Ganon's all-encompassing weakness is his crappy CQC. How is Mewtwo going to exploit that?

This is the third time in a week a super lightweight character has been said to win against Ganon so here's a rule to live by: If your weight is Olimar or lower and your name is not Rosalina you lose against Ganon. The end.

I can't see MK vs Ganon being that bad, but it's definitely in MK's favor.

The characters lighter than Olimar don't necessarily lose because of their weight. Hell I'd believe Ganondorf is one of Kirby's better matchups since getting in isn't as hard as it usually is with how much Kirby can bait laggy moves and abuse the heck out his "all-encompassing weakness".

Fact is Ganondorf has nothing safe to get in with except a well-spaced fair on shield which is rather telegraphed. Mewtwo doesn't really have to beat Ganondorf up close when he can continuously hurl 20%+ projectiles with little risk (and getting them is easy with Ganondorf's slowness). He can keep playing out Ganon's high-damaging footsie range until he overcommits to something punishable. And then there's the fact Mewtwo can gimp Ganondorf pretty easily.

Ganondorf's power keeps him in the game but it sure ain't easy exercising it against a smart Mewtwo.

 

[Nobie]

Ganon does not hate approaching. He's certainly not good at it, but it's not this all-encompassing weakness.

What is Ganon's all-encompassing weakness is his crappy CQC. How is Mewtwo going to exploit that?

This is the third time in a week a super lightweight character has been said to win against Ganon so here's a rule to live by: If your weight is Olimar or lower and your name is not Rosalina you lose against Ganon. The end.

I can't see MK vs Ganon being that bad, but it's definitely in MK's favor.

As a note, I said that I think the Jigglypuff vs. Ganon matchup is EVEN or better, key word being even, AND I said I don't really know what I'm talking about in that respect.

However, Mewtwo is a whole other can of beans when talking about a lightweight character fighting Ganondorf.

Yes, if you're lightweight you risk dying earlier to Ganondorf, of course. However, here are some things to consider:

Mewtwo does not lose to Ganondorf in range or CQC.
Mewtwo's packs almost as much kill power as Ganondorf AND has an easier time gimping him.
Mewtwo is faster, packs a strong projectile, and severely punishes attempts to get close due to a combination of...everything he does.

It is pretty much a matchup where Mewtwo has the advantage in terms of pretty much all of his tools, but is just held back by size and weight. Ganondorf always, always has a chance to turn it around against Mewtwo but the reverse is also just as true. Mewtwo can juggle Ganondorf, out-space him, out-run him, AND if he really wants to, get up close and personal with the obvious caveat that it's a high-risk, high-reward situation.

A lot of the qualities that make Rosalina a pain for Ganondorf to fight are present in Mewtwo to a lesser extent, and he has a lot of other qualities that are specifically very annoying for a character like Ganondorf to deal with.

Honestly I consider Mewtwo vs. Ganondorf (and vice versa) one of the most fun matchups in the game for precisely these reasons. I think it's one of those weird matchups where both sides are so extreme it more or less amounts to even. Stating that Mewtwo clearly loses to Ganondorf just because of Mewtwo's weight is I think kind of ridiculous.

 

[Wintropy]

Pit losing to Ness? Really? It really doesn't sound like he would lose to him.

Might be my own bias, then. Why do you think it isn't a disadvantage, out of interest?

- Earth wisdom -

This is really interesting, thanks for sharing!

I agree with LancerStaff re: Sonic and Sheik, I don't think they're that bad, but I can see where Earth is coming from (and he has more experience than me so he's probably right on the money).

Falcon is exactly right: it's difficult to say who wins because it really comes down to who gets advantage first.

I don't know about Pikachu. I think the patch helped him, but I'm 90% certain I'm biased when I say he's a very difficult matchup.

I don't know about ZSS being "close to even", especially with the patch. I guess it comes down to whether you can keep her out or if she grabs you - same as every other ZSS matchup, I guess?

I just want to mention that good Foxes and Diddies don't use their Uspecials. Look at Nairo vs ZeRo's Diddy at MLG. I remember noting that he didn't use it once. Even if they are put in a situation where they must, almost every character can do really bad things to their Uspecials. Pit sniping their Uspecials is nothing major.

You mean their side-b? Good horizontal recovery is great.

Incidentally, thinking about it, I'd say Pit beats Ganondorf pretty handy. A clever Pit will never let you get into his space and can reliably keep Ganon out with disjoints and arrows, so there's not much Ganon can do to threaten him.

Yes I know I'm replying very late I was getting my degree.

 

[Mario766]

I thought his down and side tilts were safe on shield when spaced.

So are Ike's

So?

Mac's F-Tilt is barely safe whens spaced, and his up tilt isn't safe at all. His down tilt is finally safe at least.

 

[meleebrawler]

You mean their side-b? Good horizontal recovery is great.

Incidentally, thinking about it, I'd say Pit beats Ganondorf pretty handy. A clever Pit will never let you get into his space and can reliably keep Ganon out with disjoints and arrows, so there's not much Ganon can do to threaten him.

Yes I know I'm replying very late I was getting my degree.

You know what's even better than good horizontal recovery? Being able to stuff it with a low endlag projectile, especially if you can capitalize on the vertical. Uncharged shadow balls do this very well. Taking out some of the guesswork in edgeguarding is a huge boon.

The second statement just reaffirms what me and Nobie have been saying about Mewtwo vs. Ganon; even if Pit happened to be super light I doubt the matchup would be anything worse than even.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Mac's f-tilt already kills at like, 100% and is frame 4.

I highly doubt it needs to be safe on shield as well. >: (

 

[TurboLink]

So are Ike's

So?

Mac's F-Tilt is barely safe whens spaced, and his up tilt isn't safe at all. His down tilt is finally safe at least.

Lmfao. Does everything have to be Ike with you? It's like every time someone says something you feel the need to chime in and remind everyone of Ike's existence.

So? Does Ike have a f-tilt that comes out in 4 frames, kills, and doesn't rebound? Didn't think so.

Does Ike have a d-tilt that comes out in 3 frames, pokes shields, and combos into a KO Punch that can kill pretty much everyone at around 20-30%? Didn't think so.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Mario's D-throw > F-air is a combo if you DI inwards/poorly. If you DI outwards then it isn't a combo at all. You're better off doing RAR B-air.

Doc's D-throw > F-air is a combo but not a true one. The ZSS in the vid was definitely attempting to air dodge because it happened twice in that set. Maybe it wasn't buffered (I honestly can't tell), but it also means Doc has a 50/50 kill setup if air dodge does have to be buffered.

I know the Doc boards had data on this before but those were patches ago. Likely unreliable.

Is that really true? The part about Mario's down throw -> Fair being not completely true?

 

[Mario766]

Lmfao. Does everything have to be Ike with you? It's like every time someone says something you feel the need to chime in and remind everyone of Ike's existence.

So? Does Ike have a f-tilt that comes out in 4 frames, kills, and doesn't rebound? Didn't think so.

Does Ike have a d-tilt that comes out in 3 frames, pokes shields, and combos into a KO Punch that can kill pretty much everyone at around 20-30%? Didn't think so.

I make a comparison based on good tilts, because Ike has 3 good tilts to use. Sorry you're butthurt about Ike being a good character compared to your main.

Too bad that F-Tilt doesn't connect at max range, won't kill for a long time vs heavies and is STILL un-safe unless spaced out.

Too bad that D-Tilt doesn't do much when it's your only ground tool that is safe to throw out.

Also, for the above post, no Mario can't down throw F-Air for a true combo.

Everyone tested that back in beta. LOL

 

[TurboLink]

I make a comparison based on good tilts, because Ike has 3 good tilts to use. Sorry you're butthurt about Ike being a good character compared to your main.

Too bad that F-Tilt doesn't connect at max range, won't kill for a long time vs heavies and is STILL un-safe unless spaced out.

Too bad that D-Tilt doesn't do much when it's your only ground tool that is safe to throw out.

Also, for the above post, no Mario can't down throw F-Air for a true combo.

Everyone tested that back in beta. LOL

1. I don't main Little Mac. Heck, I don't even like Little Mac.

2. I main Sheik, Marth, Link, Ike, Ryu, and Meta Knight.

3. I'm not butthurt about anything. But I'm sure you cry your heart out in your sleep over the fact that Ike will never be solo viable as long as Sheik and her needles are around. :^)

 

[Radical Larry]

On the Top platform? Of Dreamland or Battlefield? I might not know much but I know damn well Ganon isn't reaching with U-Smash up there. As for the others Metaknight can just escape when he sees Ganon Double jump as he has to commit to that.

The rest of the post is implying that the MK isn't using true combos like the U-Air strings and is following nonsensically or is directly in line for the flame choke suicide. Metaknight can just pester with D-Airs off stage. Out of chokes reach.

Ganon punishes our mistakes hard I won't deny that but we can definitely lame him out safely on stages with platforms. Assuming stages with high platforms.

I think I should have said that it was meant for the two other platforms Ganondorf can reach. Then it'd make sense if you think about what I said previously in Ganondorf's grounded tactics.

As for MK's D-Air, Ganondorf can just DI upwards and get an altitude advantage and use Flame Choke. Though on the flipside, MK could use Shuttle Loop...but it'd be risky if he uses it too far. Heck, it might not even be possible for MK to recover if he commits too much and loses all his jumps. (Then again...)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Guys... it's not even a contest. Little Mac's tilts are on another level.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But I'm sure you cry your heart out in your sleep over the fact that Ike will never be solo viable as long as Sheik and her needles are around. :^)

Such a shame that Ike can never beat Sheik. If only Ike had beaten a top level Sheik months back, before he got even more buffs and a shield patch made the MU even better for Ike.

Oh wait that's what exactly happened. SM beat Void months back before Ike got several more rounds of buffs and gaining much more form this patch than Sheik did. Ike literally doesn't have a single MU worse than 4-6 in this game, which means literally every single MU is winnable. Hence, ya know, Ryo getting top 8 at MLG and all.

Out you go. Shoo shoo.

 

[meleebrawler]

Lmfao. Does everything have to be Ike with you? It's like every time someone says something you feel the need to chime in and remind everyone of Ike's existence.

Skyworld knows that I try with Mewtwo here.

 

[Deathcarter]

I make a comparison based on good tilts, because Ike has 3 good tilts to use. Sorry you're butthurt about Ike being a good character compared to your main.

Too bad that F-Tilt doesn't connect at max range, won't kill for a long time vs heavies and is STILL un-safe unless spaced out.

Too bad that D-Tilt doesn't do much when it's your only ground tool that is safe to throw out.

Also, for the above post, no Mario can't down throw F-Air for a true combo.

Everyone tested that back in beta. LOL

Ike's U-tilt really isn't that good. Its essentially a faster Up Smash that's still punishable on block and requires a read to actually land. I'd say Mac U-tilt edges out Ike's with its speed, ability to combo, and its status as a "get off me" move. Mac's D-tilt also edges out Ikes. Both set up into other moves and both are decently fast but Mac's is a lot more safer while Ike needs to space his properly in order to be safe. I'll give Ike the edge of Ftilt though.