Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

Another thought: In an alternate world where Pikachus would be running rampant, would we be saying that ZSS is a strong character held back by one bad matchup?

 

[Mario766]

Pikachu running rampant?

Pocket Ikes.

 

[wedl!!]

Why do you think that Ike goes even with Peach? Mario766

From what I've played she gets walled really hard and doesn't have a lot of answers to his kit. Although I can sort of see how she could maneuver around him...

 

[Mario766]

It's another MU that I have literally zero MU EXP of. We don't lose the MU and the only time I've ever seen a Ike vs Peach is Ryo vs Saj.

I don't believe Ryo ever loses that MU, but who knows if that's the MU, or player skill talking. Or both.

 

[NairWizard]

Pikachu running rampant?

Pocket Ikes.

Ike doesn't win this matchup.

Maybe prepatch, but f-air is too good now. Ike has a harder time punishing it than he did before.

Will have some time this Saturday to play san with the patch changes and see how it goes (though it'll be online so some distortion, can still get a general feel for it though).

Either way, you don't really need a secondary to deal with Pikachu, just pick Mario. Everyone should be able to play a decent Mario, he plays familiarly/flows pretty well regardless of your character choice. Well, maybe not if you're a Rosalina main and used to walling people out.

Another thought: In an alternate world where Pikachus would be running rampant, would we be saying that ZSS is a strong character held back by one bad matchup?

This matchup isn't really difficult for ZSS so much as it's annoying, though I do think that she loses by some margin. Pikachu is susceptible to death combos and gets outranged. Getting hit by b-air is devastating. It's probably a 45:55, nothing major.

 

[Mario766]

Ike definitely wins the MU.

Pikachu can't land with aerials, even with the changes to shield stun Ike still can punish aerial landing. Ike can also put up a super huge aerial that swats QA approaches away. Ike is also one of the characters where Pikachu doesn't get to recover for free. Instead Pikachu takes a skyscraper huge fire explosion to the face and dies at 50.

With ZERO counterplay because QA is too easy to follow.

Did I also mention that Pikachu has to do a really long combo to do 30? Which we get in 2 hits, and kills him with any of our really good kill moves at 85? Yeah. There's that too. Good luck killing Ike at any reasonable percent unless we DI wrong.

 

[NairWizard]

Ike definitely wins the MU.

Pikachu can't land with aerials, even with the changes to shield stun Ike still can punish aerial landing. Ike can also put up a super huge aerial that swats QA approaches away. Ike is also one of the characters where Pikachu doesn't get to recover for free. Instead Pikachu takes a skyscraper huge fire explosion to the face and dies at 50.

With ZERO counterplay because QA is too easy to follow.

Did I also mention that Pikachu has to do a really long combo to do 30? Which we get in 2 hits, and kills him with any of our really good kill moves at 85? Yeah. There's that too. Good luck killing Ike at any reasonable percent unless we DI wrong.

Pikachu doesn't need to land with aerials. He relies on autocancels and the other ones he uses significantly far off the ground when he needs to juggle. Rising f-air is great against Ike's 7 frame jumpsquat.

QA should be used less to approach and more to punish mistakes in spacing or in anticipation of a particular movement pattern.

Pikachu doesn't care about Eruption (at 50), he can stall with Thunder on himself if he sees Ike charging it, in fact he can get 3+ Thunder stalls out before he has to recover and Ike isn't going down that low to edgeguard Pikachu lol (and if he's already charging Eruption he's not going to be using f-air to punish the Thunderstall). Actually, you can even Skull Bash just below the stage and then Thunder to hit the charging Ike through the lip of the stage.

Doing really long combos to do 30 is not a big deal when Ike doesn't have an easy way to land as long as you don't give him a significant amount of breathing room. Quick Draw autocancels at the right height for a nice landing mixup but outside of that Ike doesn't have a solid way to cover himself and Pikachu's up-air is really quick. Quick Attack enables you to catch Ike if he QDs past you too and maintain your pressure/stage control.

Misc: crawl/crouch is really good vs. an aerial Ike, b-air is very punishable against crawl and I think jab1 goes overhead. Ike's rolls are really average/bad relatively too, his airdodge and spotdodge are also meh.

Ike has some really nice things for him that others don't against Pika, part of them being that he doesn't just get gimped for free, but I can't see it being worse than even.

 

[Mario766]

Get back to me when you don't need to land with aerials.

I'll be waiting a hell of a long time.

The only aerial that Ike CAN'T down tilt punish is F-Air. Which we can resolve by just jabbing. You also talk about rising F-Air like we WANT to be in the air. No.

We don't

We want to be on the ground, using our amazing shield dash and our OoS punishes to swat you away while we comfortably relax on the ground.

All your assumptions are assuming the Ike has the reaction speed of a slug. Ike can react to Side-B too low and shield Thunder. Thunder takes 16 frames for it to come out, plus side-b recovery of 40+ frames. Yeah. Uh huh.

If you wanna stall all you want, sure. It'll make reading your QA angles that much easier. Pikachu is a MU where Ike gets juggled...for almost no damage. Compare that to ZSS where instead we take up airs into up-b for almost death, or MK.

This MU is cake.

btw, yes, you DO have to land with aerials because Pikachu's auto cancels are 30+ outside of b-air.

 

[Y2Kay]

DK? Unbalanced?
Since when has a dying to a grab combo ever been a problem for anyone?
...
oh wait

Hehe funny you mention that

I kinda think of the Zard - DK comparison kinda like the Sheik - ZSS comparison

Like Sheik, Zard's weaknesses are less exploitable than his counterpart DK. But like ZSS, DK has a ridiculous kill combo that pushes him over the top( in DK's case, into high tier)

 

[meleebrawler]

I'll try my hand at making a Mewtwo matchup chart:

35:65:
40:60 (Have tools/stats that make it difficult for Mewtwo to play his game but can still be overcome):

45:55 (Either outneutrals but has trouble sealing the deal/very vulnerable when they fail or fundamentally even if not for Mewtwo's weight):

50:50:

55:45 (Fundamentally wins but strengths are not to be underestimated):

60:40:

Uncertain due to inexperience or pure theorycraft:

So basically Mewtwo, like most heavies isn't a character that really beats characters so much as he beats players, but unlike them he doesn't lose fundamentally so much, or at least not as bad.

 

[adom4]

I'll try my hand at making a Mewtwo matchup chart:

35:65:
40:60 (Have tools/stats that make it difficult for Mewtwo to play his game but can still be overcome):

45:55 (Either outneutrals but has trouble sealing the deal/very vulnerable when they fail or fundamentally even if not for Mewtwo's weight):

50:50:

55:45 (Fundamentally wins but strengths are not to be underestimated):

60:40:

Uncertain due to inexperience or pure theorycraft:

So basically Mewtwo, like most heavies isn't a character that really beats characters so much as he beats players, but unlike them he doesn't lose fundamentally so much, or at least not as bad.

Mewtwo does not win against Ganon, his weight is way too crippling in the MU (if he was heavier i would say he beats Ganon though)

 

[NairWizard]

All your assumptions are assuming the Ike has the reaction speed of a slug. Ike can react to Side-B too low and shield Thunder. Thunder takes 16 frames for it to come out, plus side-b recovery of 40+ frames. Yeah. Uh huh.

If you wanna stall all you want, sure. It'll make reading your QA angles that much easier.

I'm obviously referring to your claim that Pikachu dies at 50. You're only dying at 50 against a charged Eruption. The answer to charged Eruption is stall. You can read/predict the other angles of QA if Pikachu doesn't stall but that might kill at something like 90-100 at which percent Pikachu can die anyway to some Ike aerial.

btw, yes, you DO have to land with aerials because Pikachu's auto cancels are 30+ outside of b-air.

No idea what you're talking about, Pika doesn't land with aerials unless it's d-air (or f-air to come out of disadvantage sometimes), out of which you act immediately, or SH airdodge -> b-air to get past a big hitbox. I don't even remember the last time I landed with a non-dair aerial, actually I have crossed up some shields with f-air before lol, so never mind.

I haven't played any top Ikes so I can't actually rely on high-level experience for the rest of the conversation (any Ike I've played has been beaten just because of skill gap), but I have a very hard time visualizing how Ike can claim to win this matchup.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I'll try my hand at making a Mewtwo matchup chart:

35:65:
40:60 (Have tools/stats that make it difficult for Mewtwo to play his game but can still be overcome):

45:55 (Either outneutrals but has trouble sealing the deal/very vulnerable when they fail or fundamentally even if not for Mewtwo's weight):

50:50:

55:45 (Fundamentally wins but strengths are not to be underestimated):

60:40:

Uncertain due to inexperience or pure theorycraft:

So basically Mewtwo, like most heavies isn't a character that really beats characters so much as he beats players, but unlike them he doesn't lose fundamentally so much, or at least not as bad.

I know Peach and Ike pretty much **** on Kirby, but I REALLY need a proper explanation as to how Mewtwo has such a good matchup against him, because I'm not seeing it at all right now.

Not so sure on him doing so well against Doc either.

 

[Mario766]

How would you NOT land with aerials.

F-Air only auto cancels if you rise with it, or don't fast fall. Too bad AC F-Air is punishable on shield by jab.

D-Air/B-Air/N-Air get D-tilt punished OoS.

Take 20 damage to the face and think about your character pick.

 

[Trifroze]

Everyone really should stop using Esam as the standard for Pikachu and Nairo as the standard for ZSS when no other character except Sheik and Diddy in the form of Zero have similar representation, and when it comes to Zero, everyone almost disregards him as a reference for Diddy because literally everyone accepts Zero is just a really good player. Why can't it be the same for the other two? This is how the conversation always moves after this notion:

"but ZSS does have results and good players elsewhere too"

If you really take a look at results, ZSS is comparable to every other perceived top tier like Sonic and Rosalina or even Mario and Diddy. Sheik averages better than any of them but not by a huge margin anymore.

"well ZSS has really strong theory because of her kill setups and uhh Pikachu he has QA and is hard to hit and and and edgeguards"

The conversation about Pikachu always moves here instantly because everyone acknowledges he has no other results right now, whereas with ZSS there's that one extra turn first. Anyway regarding the imaginary quote, ZSS' setups make up for her passable neutral (for a top tier) and below average frame data (startup and cooldown wise). The setups aren't easy enough to land or get started to be a sufficient reason to regard her as a top 2 character. Play the character yourself and realize how often you need a sizable read to get her combos or setups started. This is what Nairo does and makes the character look really good, but we shouldn't judge characters based on outreading the opponent, we should instead picture a situation where the opponent is and plays on the same level. I myself only regard ZSS as #2 right now because I'm also biased by Nairo and can't think of anyone else to clearly put there, although based on reproducible results Rosalina and Sonic compete for her spot. What comes to Pikachu, come on. He's good, but there is nothing overwhelming about the character and he undeniably struggles to close off stocks.

tl;dr: just look at what they do with doc and samus

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo does not win against Ganon, his weight is way too crippling in the MU (if he was heavier i would say he beats Ganon though)

See, the thing is you can say that about most of the heavies but there's something that Ganondorf lacks compared to DK, Charizard or even Bowser; namely, movement speed that allows him to keep pressuring Mewtwo once he gets in. And of course it makes it hard for him to get a solid hit on Mewtwo in the first place.

Is everyone going to say their character has an advantageous matchup against Kirby? I know Peach and Ike pretty much **** on him, but I REALLY need a proper explanation with Mewtwo, because I'm not seeing it at all right now.

I dunno, Kirby's just that guy that seems to struggle even harder to get in than most heavies do. I remember fighting and finding it pretty sad how Kirby pretty much has no real answer to Mewtwo's dsmash. He can't move fast enough to wait it out or punish it by shielding and is too slow in the air to hop over it.

And sure, it's true that Kirby can duck to avoid things like Mewtwo's grab, but it's too bad for him that Mewtwo's main spacing tools are the long, combo starting dtilt and, again, the dsmash of doom. It's only useful if he manages to get in in the first place.

Still, he does have his superior close quarter combat and quick smashes when he does. And after seeing how a well-played Kirby can stay in I MIGHT be inclined to move him up to 55-45. But I've yet to see that happen to my Mewtwo against Kirby.

 

[bc1910]

meleebrawler I guess Greninja's so sneaky he's snuck right off your MU chart.

(fwiw I think it's even, it slightly favours Greninja but not enough for a 45:55)

 

[meleebrawler]

meleebrawler I guess Greninja's so sneaky he's snuck right off your MU chart.

(fwiw I think it's even, it slightly favours Greninja but not enough for a 45:55)

Oops. Well that kinda proves he would have gone in the "not sure" category.

It's just weird. You'd THINK Greninja would be the kind of character Mewtwo would have some fairly significant issues with but in practice Greninja just doesn't win neutral against him the way said characters tend to do.

 

[adom4]

See, the thing is you can say that about most of the heavies but there's something that Ganondorf lacks compared to DK, Charizard or even Bowser; namely, movement speed that allows him to keep pressuring Mewtwo once he gets in. And of course it makes it hard for him to get a solid hit on Mewtwo in the first place.



I dunno, Kirby's just that guy that seems to struggle even harder to get in than most heavies do. I remember fighting and finding it pretty sad how Kirby pretty much has no real answer to Mewtwo's dsmash. He can't move fast enough to wait it out or punish it by shielding and is too slow in the air to hop over it.

And sure, it's true that Kirby can duck to avoid things like Mewtwo's grab, but it's too bad for him that Mewtwo's main spacing tools are the long combo starting dtilt and, again, the dsmash of doom. It's only useful if he manages to get in in the first place.

Still, he does have his superior close quarter combat and quick smashes when he does. And after seeing how a well-played Kirby can stay in I MIGHT be inclined to move him up to 55-45. But I've yet to see that happen to my Mewtwo against Kirby.

It's really not that hard hitting Mewtwo considering how ****ing huge he is, and Ganondorf punishes harder than both Bowser & Charizard.

 

[FullMoon]

Personally I think Greninja beats Mewtwo, especially with the shield nerf.

 

[Vipermoon]

Get back to me when you don't need to land with aerials.

I'll be waiting a hell of a long time.

The only aerial that Ike CAN'T down tilt punish is F-Air. Which we can resolve by just jabbing. You also talk about rising F-Air like we WANT to be in the air. No.

We don't

We want to be on the ground, using our amazing shield dash and our OoS punishes to swat you away while we comfortably relax on the ground.

All your assumptions are assuming the Ike has the reaction speed of a slug. Ike can react to Side-B too low and shield Thunder. Thunder takes 16 frames for it to come out, plus side-b recovery of 40+ frames. Yeah. Uh huh.

If you wanna stall all you want, sure. It'll make reading your QA angles that much easier. Pikachu is a MU where Ike gets juggled...for almost no damage. Compare that to ZSS where instead we take up airs into up-b for almost death, or MK.

This MU is cake.

btw, yes, you DO have to land with aerials because Pikachu's auto cancels are 30+ outside of b-air.

Pikachu can Fair pressure shields safely thanks to the patch's work on electric attacks and autocancel on the ground. You can do almost nothing against it.

 

[Illuminose]

Sheik vs Ike is somewhere in the realm of 65:35 (if the Sheik knows the matchup). There's no aspect of the game where Ike wins. Sheik controls the ground with needles, forcing Ike to approach. Her crouch is really good vs Ike's approaches, opening up easy opportunities for punishes. She can play this really safe and Ike really can't do much about it because he simply doesn't have the means to break through campy Sheik. Ike is combo food, being a big body with no combo breakers. And once Sheik gets him off-stage, it's hell. Needles are torture for Ike when he's recovering, stuffing out the Side B and even the Up B. In general, you can really abuse stage control and keep Ike in a position where he can't control much space. The one thing that Ike has in this matchup is that you have to respect his aerials because they do beat out fair, but if you're aware of the matchup (playing a ground-based neutral from my experiences) then it doesn't really...matter. The Eruption edgeguard really doesn't matter if you are getting good recovery angles as Sheik (i.e. it won't hit you), which is pretty easy because Ike actually chasing you off-stage is a joke (awful IASA on aerials means he completely gives up stage control on whiff and he's not good at getting it back vs Sheik).

o btw pika thunder stall means you ain't charging an eruption soooo there goes your eruption edgeguard

 

[bc1910]

Oops. Well that kinda proves he would have gone in the "not sure" category.

It's just weird. You'd THINK Greninja would be the kind of character Mewtwo would have some fairly significant issues with but in practice Greninja just doesn't win neutral against him the way said characters tend to do.

Confusion is fast and occupies Greninja's favourite CQC range (outside shieldgrab but inside Fair, Ftilt and Fsmash) while beating shield, which makes fighting up close tough. Fighting at a distance is tough because Confusion reflects shurikens and you risk giving Mewtwo full SB charge if he's good at reflecting, charging and shielding. Running around like a moron- I mean, utilizing Greninja's mobility, is also difficult because Shadow Ball slows him down and you risk getting butt blasted by the fully charged one should Mewtwo get it.

I don't think Mewtwo wins, Greninja's still tricky for him to deal with, but everything he does is perfectly counterable so the whole thing ends up pretty even. In fairness the shield nerf hasn't helped Mewtwo at all in this MU (Greninja's shield sucked before and guess what, it still sucks) while Greninja has gained safe Fair and Ftilt on shield, plus a way more spammable Nair. I still think it's roughly even though.

 

[Planty]

I mean if we're posting MU charts I'll join in with my awful one
-2:
-1:
0:
+1: /
+2:

You mentioned to pick up Rosalina if you play Peach to cover bad matchups and just... no.

There's the fact that she's tough to play and requires a significant time investment... but just focusing on matchups:

Contrary to practically everybody's belief, Rosa vs Megaman is actually even. If you want to be beat Megaman, you choose Sheik.

She also loses to Olimar(whom is also hard countered by Sheik). She loses to Ryu too (who is beaten by Sheik). She is destroyed by ZSS(Whom I believe Sheik beats). She loses to Ike (very, very slightly. Sheik beats Ike). She loses to Sheik pretty badly (who coincidentally, has her worst matchup against Sheik. ) She loses to Pikachu (who Sheik beats). She is destroyed by MK (who Sheik beats). Her Marth/Lucina matchup is very questionable and might be bad (But Sheik beats them).

Basically, if you main Peach, you want a secondary Sheik, not Rosa. Rosa won't be helping too much and by having a Sheik secondary, you have an answer against every character in the game.

Why is Lucina an advantageous matchups when Marth is even? I was under the impression that their matchup spread was more or less the same.

Either way, you don't really need a secondary to deal with Pikachu, just pick Mario. Everyone should be able to play a decent Mario, he plays familiarly/flows pretty well regardless of your character choice. Well, maybe not if you're a Rosalina main and used to walling people out.

This is so hilariously true.

 

[Trifroze]

Also I don't think there's much contest that DK is the best superheavy, and by a fair margin, just because of his cargo kill setup. Even without it, he's about matched with Bowser, Dedede, Charizard and Ganondorf. Best overall mobility by far, bair is a safe aerial to land with, and he's Ganon-like at edgeguarding. DK's grab frame data is also really good and he has decent range on all variations, and his tilts are Bowser/Ganondorf level except a bit weaker and safer, while down b is a unique tech chase tool most characters would like to have. Possibly the best survivability out of any of them as well, if not then he's just behind Dedede in my opinion.

All DK really lacks are multiple jumps (which Bowser and Ganondorf also lack), and good OoS options (which Ganondorf and Dedede also lack), although DK's jab, grab and dtilt I think are enough to make his CQC better than all the others except Charizard's.

 

[KirbySquad101]

See, the thing is you can say that about most of the heavies but there's something that Ganondorf lacks compared to DK, Charizard or even Bowser; namely, movement speed that allows him to keep pressuring Mewtwo once he gets in. And of course it makes it hard for him to get a solid hit on Mewtwo in the first place.



I dunno, Kirby's just that guy that seems to struggle even harder to get in than most heavies do. I remember fighting and finding it pretty sad how Kirby pretty much has no real answer to Mewtwo's dsmash. He can't move fast enough to wait it out or punish it by shielding and is too slow in the air to hop over it.

And sure, it's true that Kirby can duck to avoid things like Mewtwo's grab, but it's too bad for him that Mewtwo's main spacing tools are the long combo starting dtilt and, again, the dsmash of doom. It's only useful if he manages to get in in the first place.

Still, he does have his superior close quarter combat and quick smashes when he does. And after seeing how a well-played Kirby can stay in I MIGHT be inclined to move him up to 55-45. But I've yet to see that happen to my Mewtwo against Kirby.

I dunno, it's hard imagining how Mewtwo's D-Smash takes such a toll on him. It's lagless, but it still has 20+ frames of start-up to which Kirby has enough speed to punish. I can see D-Tilt also giving him a rough time, but he does have some tools to answer it like his quick tilts. It kind of seems to me that Mewtwo's tools manageable enough for Kirby to handle that the match-up is closer to even. (I can also imagine Kirby's punishes being better due to size difference. XD)

Then again, I probably don't know the match-up as well.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's really not that hard hitting Mewtwo considering how ****ing huge he is, and Ganondorf punishes harder than both Bowser & Charizard.

Does he, really? In the sense of having an easier time killing with relatively quick moves, I guess. But because of how slow he is Mewtwo has little trouble escaping pressure from him. In fact, with shadow balls and Mewtwo running circles around Ganon he has little trouble performing the strategy that Ganon hates: forcing him to make the first move. Try doing that against Charizard or DK, though, and they'll catch up and steal control of the stage pretty quickly.

Confusion is fast and occupies Greninja's favourite CQC range (outside shieldgrab but inside Fair, Ftilt and Fsmash) while beating shield, which makes fighting up close tough. Fighting at a distance is tough because Confusion reflects shurikens and you risk giving Mewtwo full SB charge if he's good at reflecting, charging and shielding. Running around like a moron- I mean, utilizing Greninja's mobility, is also difficult because Shadow Ball slows him down and you risk getting butt blasted by the fully charged one should Mewtwo get it.

I don't think Mewtwo wins, Greninja's still tricky for him to deal with, but everything he does is perfectly counterable so the whole thing ends up pretty even. In fairness the shield nerf hasn't helped Mewtwo at all in this MU (Greninja's shield sucked before and guess what, it still sucks) while Greninja has gained safe Fair and Ftilt on shield, plus a way more spammable Nair. I still think it's roughly even though.

Mewtwo's kind of similar to Greninja in that his out-of-shield is also kind of useless because of his short grab and traction, so it sort of cuts both ways here. Gonna be a lot of jumping around and maneuvering to dodge and get the advantage. Kinda seems like a pretty fun fight when put that way. 'Course this is still all theorycraft so take it with a grain of salt.

I'll also mention that Mewtwo is one of the few that enjoys having low traction for his shield because it lets him escape pressure more easily.

 

[Yikarur]

P Planty
So everyone should play Sheik to cover your bad match-ups because Sheik wins every match-up, ok

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo vs. Kirby:

Kirby has the edge in close-quarters, and has more than enough raw kill power to take out Mewtwo fairly handily, but Kirby also famously struggles to approach all characters. Mewtwo is faster on the ground, much faster in the air, and is packed with ranged disjoints and a killer projectile. Basically the key to fighting Kirby is to just run away the whole time, landing pot shots and charging Shadow Ball. It's not an exciting fight, but that's the gist of it.

Mewtwo vs. Greninja:

I think one important thing to consider is that Mewtwo shuts down charged Water Shuriken usage pretty easily. Putting aside Confusion being a thing, if Mewtwo has a Shadow Ball charged it basically means that Greninja is forbidden from charging Neutral B because that trade will almost never be in his favor.

 

[L9999]

That's not really true. If Wario jumps off the (non-custom Burying) Bike before approaching the opponent, it's a high jump, and the Bike itself deals 3% after Wario jumps off, so it's trivial for the opponent powershield or airdodge through. It's good for stalling for a couple seconds (and tapping Luma), but not really good for approaching in the way you describe it.



I don't know what that is. Are you referring to eating PK Thunder with Rosalina Down-B? While it's at no risk to her, it takes significantly more work to get Ness offstage in a way where he needs PKT2 to recover than to get a grab with ZSS or to land Waft with Wario, I think.

Yes, exactly that. It's a nickname I give to gimps that involve a Gravitational Pull or any similar move like PSI Magnet, Bucket and Pocket.

 

[Planty]

So everyone should play Sheik to cover your bad match-ups because Sheik wins every match-up, ok

Assuming that you're capable of playing Sheik and you want to win, is there any reason not to? And I really mean any reason at all.

 

[Jucchan]

The only relevant matchups that I think Pit really struggles with are ZSS and Pikachu. Even then, I don't think it's anything more than +2 at the absolute maximum for either of them. Pikachu is probably +1, I'm just paranoid about the yellow devil.

He gets beaten by Sheik (obvs), but I don't think it's a big disadvantage, definitely not one of his most difficult matchups.

He may get beaten by Fox, Luigi, Ness, Sonic and Rosalina, but none of them are anything beyond +1.

On the flip side, he doesn't beat anybody more than +1 or +2. I don't know what his best matchup is. Knowing Pit, it's probably himself or Dark Pit.

Mario, Greninja, R.O.B., Peach, Yoshi and Captain Falcon are probably matchups with a very slight advantage / disadvantage for Pit, 0.5 or something trivial either way. It's closer to even with these.

I don't know where Diddy, Wario, Ike, Ryu, Meta Knight, Villager and the other relevant characters go.

This is just my opinion. Pit's matchup spread isn't really relevant, even we the Pits don't know what goes where, but this is what I think it is.

EDIT: Forgot Mario and Sonic~

EDIT2: Full spread. Please critique at your discretion.

Spoiler

-2



-1



0



+1



+2

...?

On the topic of Pit MUs: Translation of Earth's Comments

"Disadvantageous:


Probably Pit's worst matchup. You lose the damage race, partially because you can't rack up damage very well against his runaway spin. It does not help that Pit's recovery seems easy to hit Sonic's side-smash ledgeguard on. Tips for playing against him are d-air against approaching spin, walking jab against spin-cancel waiting, punishing unsafe movement with dash-attack and up-smash. That said, you can only really rack up damage unless the opponent messes up. I asked Nairo at F.A.T. about this matchup and he didn't seem to like it either.


You can't disrupt her strong neutral game so you can only win on reads. You have to do something about KOing her by using throw kills and smashes. It's important to sometimes throw out upperdash arm and pray. I only think it's a slight disadvantage but when actually playing her the matchup does feel hard.

Close to even, but slight disadvantage/annoying:


I thought it was even but new update puts that in question. It's important not to play along with her neutral game.


Even in neutral but Pit is easily KO'd by up-air shuttle loop and edgeguard. You can get an early KO is the opponent isn't playing carefully but the MU seems hard against a patient, precise MK.


One of Pit's Top 3 volatile matchups. You have a slight disadvantage in neutral and control of the game tends to go back and forth, but you can make it up if you get an edgeguard.

Might also be annoying.

Everything except for seem very close to even so if the player can win the MU if they play well.

Personally, I think are easier matchups."

 

[FullMoon]

Mewtwo vs. Greninja:

I think one important thing to consider is that Mewtwo shuts down charged Water Shuriken usage pretty easily. Putting aside Confusion being a thing, if Mewtwo has a Shadow Ball charged it basically means that Greninja is forbidden from charging Neutral B because that trade will almost never be in his favor.

The same could be said for Samus, Lucario, etc, we shouldn't be firing fully charged shurikens at them when they have their charge stored. But we really don't lose much by not charging the shuriken, it works well as an edgeguarding tool but for on-stage purposes it's very easy to react to it.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Also I don't think there's much contest that DK is the best superheavy, and by a fair margin, just because of his cargo kill setup. Even without it, he's about matched with Bowser, Dedede, Charizard and Ganondorf. Best overall mobility by far, bair is a safe aerial to land with, and he's Ganon-like at edgeguarding. DK's grab frame data is also really good and he has decent range on all variations, and his tilts are Bowser/Ganondorf level except a bit weaker and safer, while down b is a unique tech chase tool most characters would like to have. Possibly the best survivability out of any of them as well, if not then he's just behind Dedede in my opinion.

All DK really lacks are multiple jumps (which Bowser and Ganondorf also lack), and good OoS options (which Ganondorf and Dedede also lack), although DK's jab, grab and dtilt I think are enough to make his CQC better than all the others except Charizard's.

Yeah I definitely agree. An important thing to note is that DK has that Frame 3 Up B as a combo breaker. Bowser, Dedede, and Ganon all lack something like that, putting his disadvantage state above theirs.
Also, the fact that his Up B covers like, 5 final destinations of distance really makes his edgeguarding scary when you consider how deep he can go with Bairs and Nairs, both of which have many active frames.

 

[Jamurai]

Uncertain due to inexperience or pure theorycraft:

I think MK definitely wins, not sure quite how hard though. MK's matchups are significantly affected by how easy it is to pull off Uair combos, and Mewtwo is huge which makes it difficult to drop. He is also obviously very light so he dies to Shuttle Loop early from a variety of setups.

Out of interest, why is the Mac matchup difficult?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Guess I'll take a crack at it.



Clear disadvantage:

Noticeable disadvantage:

Even:

Noticable Advantage:

Clear Advantage:



I lack the experience necessary (read: have played at most 5 matches against them) to form solid opinions on , the Miis, and

That was actually harder than I thought it would be, lol

 

[Nu~]

Guess I'll take a crack at it.



Clear disadvantage:

Noticeable disadvantage:

Even:

Noticable Advantage:

Clear Advantage:



I lack the experience necessary (read: have played at most 5 matches against them) to form solid opinions on , the Miis, and

That was actually harder than I thought it would be, lol

I'm guessing you lack the experience to talk about as well?

 

[Megamang]

Assuming that you're capable of playing Sheik and you want to win, is there any reason not to? And I really mean any reason at all.

Everyone knows the MU. You will play obscure characters with decent MUs who know their shiek MU near obsessively. She has great setups, but does suffer from rage more than most. Which means you need really solid consistency to progress thru a bracket. Ryu, for example, doesnt have this problem as much because you often win your pools matches before any adaptation takes place.



Also, yet another pika MU where a top 5 projectile is treated as nonexistent. Also, if A2Z can convince people that dr mario isnt getting gimped, there is no way you can convince me pika is... how is pika even recovering low in this scenario? What moves of ikes set this situation up? Because as it is i always just tjolt ikes for charging eruption... i also dont quick attack directly into eruption. Is this how palutena mains feel when people talk about their character?

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'm guessing you lack the experience to talk about as well?

Pac-Man is such an oddball. I've played him so many times and walked out of games with feelings of "that should not have happened" for a majority of them.

 

[Pazzo.]

Guess I'll take a crack at it.



Clear disadvantage:

Noticeable disadvantage:

Even:

Noticable Advantage:

Clear Advantage:



I lack the experience necessary (read: have played at most 5 matches against them) to form solid opinions on , the Miis, and

That was actually harder than I thought it would be, lol

As a Robin player who has a strong Link player at home, I agree that is an absolute pain to play against.

Robin can win the matchup, but the player must be cognizant of Lucas' PK Fire. If you don't properly prepare yourself for Lucas' only effective spacing tool on , he'll gain control of the neutral and take you up and down combo town.