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Mewtwo gets kicked into space so early. That and Shadow Ball isn't a camping projectile any more than Aura Sphere or Charge Shot. I'm not seeing it, TBH. Y'all don't get combo'd super-hard 'cause of your weight, but still.
Uh, Gheb was just kidding about putting -5 on Yoshi beating the crap out of Fox like that... right? The matchup isn't that bad either way. Honestly, most of the Yoshi board thinks it's in Fox's favour, while a majority of the Fox board thinks it falls on Yoshi's favor. I myself thought it was even when we started discussing it, now I think it's more in Yoshi's favour but it's nothing undo-able. From Fox's perspective, he needs to do a lot of respecting: Yoshi's egg lay command grab, his air speed letting him go very deep offstage or come back onstage with a rising aerial or something like that, his combo-breaking N-air, his Dash Attack, his jab (my god is his jab ever good) and his u-smash and f-smash.
Incorrect. Me and San have worked it out. F-Air is just slightly OoS Jab punishable due to either landing lag from a non-AC F-AIr, or a F-Air that is Auto Cancelled he still has to be in the air due to rising with it.
I hope you didn't make that pun on purpose, Masko!As a Robin player who has a strong Link player at home, I agree that
Robin can win thematchup, but the player must be cognizant of Lucas' PK Fire. If you don't properly prepare yourself for Lucas' only effective spacing tool on
Well if perfectly autocancelled without fast fall Pikachu does have frame advantage on shield drop.
Shadow Ball isn't a camping projectile, but the point isn't to camp with it in the first place. It's that every time you knock Kirby away or get some breathing room (which should be often), you can use that opportunity to charge Shadow Ball and change the dynamic of the neutral game completely. Basically, Mewtwo buys time for Shadow Ball in order to initiate an offense, and then goes back to the evasive game whether it works or not.
Shaya
has mentioned in the past, having something you can just do to improve your position when your opponent doesn't approach or retaliate can be huge.
Perhaps this is an instance where Lucina's "I don't care" blade could give her an edge.So i'm back with actual high level footage of Wario (Reflex) vs Marth (Mr E)
It's pretty clear from that set that Wario doesn't get shut down by sword users like most people assume. Of course, this doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things because Marth is fairly irrelevant to begin with, but I wanted to make a point.
The thing that most people seem to miss is that characters like Marth and the like struggle to get the KO on Wario. They generally lack KO set ups and, he's small, mobile and heavy on top of that, so advantages they have in neutral are mitigated significantly since they struggle to get that KO.
While I agree that Marth doesn't completely destroy Wario, this is a very old video from before every Marth patch.So i'm back with actual high level footage of Wario (Reflex) vs Marth (Mr E)
It's pretty clear from that set that Wario doesn't get shut down by sword users like most people assume. Of course, this doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things because Marth is fairly irrelevant to begin with, but I wanted to make a point.
The thing that most people seem to miss is that characters like Marth and the like struggle to get the KO on Wario. They generally lack KO set ups and, he's small, mobile and heavy on top of that, so advantages they have in neutral are mitigated significantly since they struggle to get that KO.
Don't.
I don't really check this thread anymore, like once every few weeks? Gheb vs Yoshi's has gone on so many times in this thread alone it's almost hilarious.
Link players, including myself think Link beats Mewtwo. Link is good at walling out tall characters, he goes even with Ryu despite Ryu's insane reward. Mewtwo dies much earlier and is even larger.I'll try my hand at making a Mewtwo matchup chart:
35:65:
40:60 (Have tools/stats that make it difficult for Mewtwo to play his game but can still be overcome):
45:55 (Either outneutrals but has trouble sealing the deal/very vulnerable when they fail or fundamentally even if not for Mewtwo's weight):
50:50:
55:45 (Fundamentally wins but strengths are not to be underestimated):
60:40:
Uncertain due to inexperience or pure theorycraft:
So basically Mewtwo, like most heavies isn't a character that really beats characters so much as he beats players, but unlike them he doesn't lose fundamentally so much, or at least not as bad.
Okay, wasn't expecting most of those to be like that...On the topic of Pit MUs: Translation of Earth's Comments
"Disadvantageous:
Probably Pit's worst matchup. You lose the damage race, partially because you can't rack up damage very well against his runaway spin. It does not help that Pit's recovery seems easy to hit Sonic's side-smash ledgeguard on. Tips for playing against him are d-air against approaching spin, walking jab against spin-cancel waiting, punishing unsafe movement with dash-attack and up-smash. That said, you can only really rack up damage unless the opponent messes up. I asked Nairo at F.A.T. about this matchup and he didn't seem to like it either.
You can't disrupt her strong neutral game so you can only win on reads. You have to do something about KOing her by using throw kills and smashes. It's important to sometimes throw out upperdash arm and pray. I only think it's a slight disadvantage but when actually playing her the matchup does feel hard.
Close to even, but slight disadvantage/annoying:
I thought it was even but new update puts that in question. It's important not to play along with her neutral game.
Even in neutral but Pit is easily KO'd by up-air shuttle loop and edgeguard. You can get an early KO is the opponent isn't playing carefully but the MU seems hard against a patient, precise MK.
One of Pit's Top 3 volatile matchups. You have a slight disadvantage in neutral and control of the game tends to go back and forth, but you can make it up if you get an edgeguard.
Everything except for
Personally, I think
I just want to mention that good Foxes and Diddies don't use their Uspecials. Look at Nairo vs ZeRo's Diddy at MLG. I remember noting that he didn't use it once. Even if they are put in a situation where they must, almost every character can do really bad things to their Uspecials. Pit sniping their Uspecials is nothing major.
I agree. More representation from true high level players will surely change the tier lists around for the better. I think Sheik and Diddy were lucky to have Zero like ZSS to Nairo and ESAM to Pikachu. I think the three player are just so good that they make these characters even better than they already are.
Probably should of said recoveries instead of Uspecials... Not hard to snipe their Fspecials, especially Diddy. Having a no risk, practically free way to gimp 'em after that is good too.
Except Pikachu will never have that off a short hop, he'd still be in the air.
Why do you have to input a frame perfect Fair? Wait a little bit. Even if you do, you have a slight fast fall window (and still a neutral frame advantage with fast fall landing lag).
This is an extremely flawed perception. These players are representing the character's potential, not exaggerating it.
That's reasonable - Shadow Ball is threatening, and while Kirby can copy it, Mewtwo can reflect it. All the same, that doesn't account for how Mewtwo can hit and run easily without giving Kirby a chance to do damage as well. That and (I know this line of thought is tainted) we can duck Shadow Ball, so it's not that easy to throw out in neutral.Shadow Ball isn't a camping projectile, but the point isn't to camp with it in the first place. It's that every time you knock Kirby away or get some breathing room (which should be often), you can use that opportunity to charge Shadow Ball and change the dynamic of the neutral game completely. Basically, Mewtwo buys time for Shadow Ball in order to initiate an offense, and then goes back to the evasive game whether it works or not.
In general in all matchups, Mewtwo gains a significant tool in neutral whenever Shadow Ball is fully charged. Sonic's evasiveness is less of a factor when you can catch him on the retreat. Reflector characters have it on their mind at all times, but are wary of the fact that Mewtwo can lob it right back most of the time. Peach goes from being absolutely threatening with her floats to having to worry about Shadow Ball overpowering everything she does.
This is actually something that I find hilarious about people who complain that Mewtwo doesn't have enough throw follow-ups or combo throws. Putting aside the fact that Mewtwo's throws are all above average in terms of overall damage, any distance created by Mewtwo's throws (which is more often than not quite a bit of space) is an opportunity to charge up a Shadow Ball. And as
Basically very good spacing, and literally hitting while running at times (pivot f-tilts). I'm oversimplifying of course.
Not actually that depressing IMO. People like to look at theory and results hand in hand, kind of using one to validate the other. Doc wasn't doing so well so people looked at his frame data and tried to justify why he wasn't doing so well. When doc breaks out and does well, people then find justification for that and say "actually, this character can somewhat handle themselves at a professional level."
That's true. Even though his frame data is trash, he still can win some high tier MUs, but loses to top tiers like sheik and rosalinaA lot of people just seem to think their character auto-wins vs Shulk. Shulk doesn't actually lose that many non-top tier matchups though.
Understandable, but if a character like Doc can certainly make good results and make people think more about him, then people need to also think of other characters like Ganondorf, D3 and Falco, in a different perspective obviously.
Thing is while Link's gameplan is very effective against Ryu who wants to get in very badly since his hadouken just can't compete against Link's projectiles, Mewtwo isn't so keen on mounting an assault. What's more likely to happen is Mewtwo denying your projectiles with confusion and threatening to overpower them with charged shadow balls. Bombs and the Hylian Shield can block them but bombs are easy to reflect if thrown head-on. A distance fight will at best result in a stalemate for Link.
Radical Larry
said.
Of course. I only mean to say that characters with mixed results and mixed theory shoot up and down in people's minds based on their results (remember that table someone did ages back of good - poor results / theory?) and that it's an understandable phenomenon. Ideally, everyone should be paying attention to every character. But with a game that has so much depth (the fact we have such a thriving community is a testament to that, hopefully a majority of our members realise just how deep the numbers go when it comes to smash) it makes sense that people get info gaps... And that's where results are meant to fill in the gaps, except they sometimes don't convey what a character's potential is. Probably why so many people are like "look at how amazing my character actually is" and no-one listens because "lol no results".
That's what I'm saying. If they had better representation you may see better results. I don't know why that's a flawed perception.
Well if that's what your trying to say then that's stating the obvious. More people playing = more chances of good results
Link can outcamp Mewtwo. He has a very good anti reflector game in how his projectile spamming works with SHs. Most reflected projectiles simply miss by going under Link. You reflect boomerang and Link gets to charge an arrow or pull a bomb free. Reflect a bomb and Link can DA to catch it and hit Mewtwo.
This is a logical perception. If we go by this...
I'm actually pretty sure Rosalina is Shulk's easiest top tier matchup (depending on who else is in top tier I guess, but even then). His reach lets him kill Luma pretty much on accident, especially in buster, and for a more gimmicky manner of doing so, Smash mode will launch Luma at 0%. And while Luma loves stuffing follow ups on Rosa, Shulk doesn't have a ton to work with in the first place so it doesn't effect him as much. Plus since Rosa isn't a super "let me run in and stuff all your buttons, 'K?" sort of character it gives Shulk the breathing room to play his game. Rosa's silly juggle strings might put it in her favor since Shulk's tall, but I'd put it at -1 at worst.
Though if she can't gimp/get the 50/50 he lives freaking forever. Needles always keeps her in control though and Shulk hates how quick she is. I actually beat the one offline Sonic player I've fought at SmashCon but even with Speed/Jump Shulk shouldn't realistically be able to hit Sonic too often. Need more experience here. Significantly easier without the jab lock, but he gets so much damage when he gets in. Shulk appreciates his lack of throw follow ups and somewhat punishable recovery though. More of a personal demon (I think ROB players have knocked me out of at least half of the tournaments I've gone to but other Shulks never seem to complain about him that often), but Gyro is annoying as frick. Probably not so bad as I think though.Haven't fought enough to make a real assessment but it sounds awful on paper.
I'm actually pretty sure Rosalina is Shulk's easiest top tier matchup (depending on who else is in top tier I guess, but even then). His reach lets him kill Luma pretty much on accident, especially in buster, and for a more gimmicky manner of doing so, Smash mode will launch Luma at 0%. And while Luma loves stuffing follow ups on Rosa, Shulk doesn't have a ton to work with in the first place so it doesn't effect him as much. Plus since Rosa isn't a super "let me run in and stuff all your buttons, 'K?" sort of character it gives Shulk the breathing room to play his game. Rosa's silly juggle strings might put it in her favor since Shulk's tall, but I'd put it at -1 at worst.
My personal toughest matchups have been:
He'll take less KB (less hitstun); yes it would work. But how much time does switching to Shield take? If you get dash attacked and you try then, you probably don't have enough time. We'll have to see footage of it.
