Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[DanGR]

Not as bad as most people think?

Can you please explain how that how the matchup isn't as bad as what most people think?

I think Fox' disadvantaged state in the matchup is exaggerated both offstage and onstage, and his advantaged state is much more difficult to perform than Rosa's, but just as potent. I think Rosa takes the cake because she's got the edge in neutral and she's better at gimping Fox than vice-versa (which is a big factor in this matchup), but it's not enough to warrant a -2.

 

[Vipermoon]

@Ffamran Yeah Mario's Dsmash in Brawl (and probably Melee) was the same total frames as Luigi's always was/current is.

This nerf really shouldn't be a big deal with how many other things were nerfed for Smash 4 and how Mario got major mobility and kill power buffs.

 

[bc1910]

Not gonna lie dude that totally made my day XD

as of the matchup it's either even or slightly in fox's favor

Fox has a better neutral and has ways to punish spindash

That being said most people who say that it's in fox's favor are sonic mains like ~ Gheb ~ and DavemanCozy mentioned beforehand

Speaking of Fox I notice alot of fox guides on smashboards are out of date.

Not saying those guides are terrible but alot of fox guides don't even mention fox's jab nerf.

As a fellow fox main myself I think it should make an up to date that'll help the next generation of future fox mains

Whether there Star fox fans, Prideful warriors, or complete **** boyz I will make it my sole duty to make a casual fox main into a killing machine that will be beating the crap out of every person at a local, or a regional, hell maybe even a national.

Here's a Matchup spread that I plan on using for my guide

Please keep in mind this is the character's in this matchup spread will be the greatest threats from Shaya characters ratings list all the way back at the fist page anyother character that's below will not be used.

also this isn't a tier list.

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:/
+2:
+3:

If anyone has any disagreements and would like to put in any corrections/express there opinions for the matchups shown here then your more then happy to oblige
Note:I know nothing about I mean he's not discussed much nor is he seen much in tournaments so if anyone has any knowledge on the Olimar vs Fox matchup and put in there input on the matchup then that would be great.
​

You should be including a Greninja MU if you're listing all the characters of his strength, which you are.

 

[Megamang]

Someone mentioned fireballers being the best in many games, and i wanted to mention something i never see about pika when he comes up. He has one of the best projectiles for covering approaches, and if you get hit wrong later it can even lead to usmash kills. His tools may seem mediocre on paper, but his approaches will often have a 6% bouncing hitbox coming with him that confirms into grabs on shield and a number of things on hit. A pika proficient in b reversing can make room to create a covered approach very easily.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox does fine against Rosalina. It's Luma that makes the matchup a pain in the butt.


- 5
- 1.5
- 1
- 0.5
+ 0
+ 0.5


Off the top of my head. Yes I use .5 numbers, sue me.

 

[Yikarur]

Fox pretty much bodies Rosalina once he is in advantage state and vice versa. It's more about the neutral than anything.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Fox does fine against Rosalina. It's Luma that makes the matchup a pain in the butt.


- 5
- 1.5
- 1
- 0.5
+ 0
+ 0.5


Off the top of my head. Yes I use .5 numbers, sue me.

Nah man, I'd sue you for the -5, not the decimals.

 

[bc1910]

Reddit staying right up with the news as usual.

Seriously that gif appeared in this thread like, 2 months ago?

On the subject of Sheik by the way, I can only see her losing to ZSS if you have Nairo-level punishes. As in, nearly every hit ends in a kill. At high level I would think this MU is still in Sheik's favour.

 

[Vipermoon]

Reddit staying right up with the news as usual.

Seriously that gif appeared in this thread like, 2 months ago?

On the subject of Sheik by the way, I can only see her losing to ZSS if you have Nairo-level punishes. As in, nearly every hit ends in a kill. At high level I would think this MU is still in Sheik's favour.

Arghhh! I can't stand reddit. Literally everyone there is blaming Marth rather than Sheik's stupid Fair.

 

[Trifroze]

Reddit staying right up with the news as usual.

Hello there old friend

 

[Wintropy]

So Reflex's set with Ryo and vague experimentation with the character has me wondering, how does Wario fare with swordfighters? He seems to be the kind of character that either wants to keep you out or ensure you can't keep him out. I imagine disjoints give him a hard time, but that's just theory.

Not that swordfighters necessarily make up a good portion of relevant characters (the only ones that come to mind are Ike, maybe the Pits and MK if you count him), but it was an interesting set and I can't help but notice how much Reflex needed to spot an opening in Ryo's wall of disjoints before he got to do things.

 

[Megamang]

Wario has historically not delt well with swords. Well, he cant outbutton them, he has to outmanuever them, or put punish/kill with waft. He has the tools, but ingenuity is required.

 

[Zelder]

Fox does fine against Rosalina. It's Luma that makes the matchup a pain in the butt.


- 5
- 1.5
- 1
- 0.5
+ 0
+ 0.5


Off the top of my head. Yes I use .5 numbers, sue me.

Is a .5 a 55/45 or a 52.5/47.5?

 

[Sir Tundra]

You should be including a Greninja MU if you're listing all the characters of his strength, which you are.

I was using mainly going by character's in shayas greatest threats list at the first page to be safe however maybe I can use and as you mentioned as exceptions since both do well in tournaments. greninja does well in japan and some parts of europe while Ike has made top 8 in a few tourneys most notably mlg.

Fox does fine against Rosalina. It's Luma that makes the matchup a pain in the butt.


- 5
- 1.5
- 1
- 0.5
+ 0
+ 0.5


Off the top of my head. Yes I use .5 numbers, sue me.

-5?

Yoshi can't be that bad of a matchup.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wario has historically not delt well with swords. Well, he cant outbutton them, he has to outmanuever them, or put punish/kill with waft. He has the tools, but ingenuity is required.

Meh, I don't think Wario has a sword problem worse than the next guy. Saying Wario historically had a problem with swords is saying Wario struggled against Brawl Marth and MK. Everybody did.

 

[warionumbah2]

Wario doesn't care about his "bad" MUs, he has waft (cheese).

 

[Zelder]

Cheese generally contributes to my wafts, too.

 

[Megamang]

Meh, I don't think Wario has a sword problem worse than the next guy. Saying Wario historically had a problem with swords is saying Wario struggled against Brawl Marth and MK. Everybody did.

But... those were particularly hard for wario. When you play the matchup, you have to outmanuever a wall with just mobility (no projectile or form of counter poke); others struggle in other ways but wario in particular is stubby and hits a hitbox and loses a lot more than most.


Yes, they have a disjoint over everyone... i cant articulate it perfectly, but swordy v wario often feels like if the swordsman had good enough reaction time, youd be ****ed. And not perfect, just like... above average really.

 

[DavemanCozy]

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:/
+2:
+3:

If anyone has any disagreements and would like to put in any corrections/express there opinions for the matchups shown here then your more then happy to oblige
Note:I know nothing about I mean he's not discussed much nor is he seen much in tournaments so if anyone has any knowledge on the Olimar vs Fox matchup and put in there input on the matchup then that would be great.
​

I agree with Rosa being Fox's worst matchup, but -1 would be my rating, 6:4 for Rosa at most if I were to use a numerical ratio.

Olimar is even imo.

Fox does fine against Rosalina. It's Luma that makes the matchup a pain in the butt.


- 5

Oh boy... here we go. Inb4 Slush and all the Barney squad comes in.

And man, -5... I can't take that seriously. I think it's -1 at the very best for Yoshi.

EDIT: +1 Advantage for Yoshi, that is. Poorly worded, my apologies. I meant Fox loses by -1

 

[TTTTTsd]

Fox does fine against Rosalina. It's Luma that makes the matchup a pain in the butt.


- 5
- 1.5
- 1
- 0.5
+ 0
+ 0.5


Off the top of my head. Yes I use .5 numbers, sue me.

Doc doing better than Mario in this MU is something I quite honestly stand by (even if the difference is marginal I totally agree).

My reasoning:
- Doc's punishes on Fastfallers are much more severe
- DThrow to Fair is a solid 50/50 (although my testing vs. Fox seems to confirm that it is actually true combo and not just with training mode. I mashed airdodge out of D-Throw to check realistically how early it could be done consistent and Doc could hit him with Fair before it happened. I think the %s are like 70-100 something something. I'll do a frame accurate test via like, frame by frame in training today, but I am almost positive that Doc can hit him with sweetspot Fair if he follows DI because Fox doesn't enter tumble or a state where he can act out in time since he's a fastfaller and not floaty)
- Better anti air with USmash (this is kinda relevant)
- Since Mario doesn't dominate the pace with his mobility I assume it ultimately comes down to punish games and Doc's vs. Fox's is stronger than Mario's to my knowledge, aforementioned reasons and all.

So like, this is probably one of Doc's MUs where he is relevantly an improvement over Mario if only marginally, any little bit helps.

 

[Mario766]

Ike vs Wario comes down to one thing.

Just like all of Wario's MUs


Don't get Wafted.


Harder than it sounds.

But really. Ike ACTUALLY WINS NEUTRAL for once. Unbelievable. Ike can punish bike heavily with aerials because we can slap Wario for getting on it for free, if you know the MU and the timing. Ike also can punish recoveries with Eruption, albeit with timing.

Waft sucks to play against, but it's life.

 

[Routa]

The thing is that Wario cannot get in. Wario lacks disjointed moves which makes it extremely hard and risky to get in with Wario. Yeah he has the mobility on his side, but try to approach Ike... Well you don't need to approach, but neither does the enemy (I dare you I double dare you ************ to mention Waft).

I could explain more but I don't know which words to use (Me no master on american)
Shortly said Wario's worst MUs are mainly against sword wieldiers (Link, Shulk and Ike considered to be his worst MUs).

 

[DavemanCozy]

Playing against Waft is basically playing against Wario. There's nothing you can do to stop him from passively charging it, the only thing you can do is respect it.

Honestly, you need talk about the waft when you talk about a Wario mu. It's such a powerful comeback tool and quick KO move, to put in perspective half waft has almost the same power as a true SRK.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Shortly said Wario's worst MUs are mainly against sword wieldiers (Link, Shulk and Ike considered to be his worst MUs).

No they're not.

Here's the thing about Wario's MUs - no one is gonna agree on them. The Wario MU thread and Skype group are all over the place with this. There's no general consensus on this character's MUs.

And it's all because waft is dumb.

 

[Zannabluke]

i love wario, he's so much fun to play but a good amount of matches with him really comes down to: lose neutral > can i land waft?

yes > victory
no > "why i'm even playing this stupid character"

 

[Spinosaurus]

Yeah it's so easy to feel overwhelmed with Wario I'm not surprised that I've seen nearly every character named as a bad MU for him. But that's how he's designed. He has all the tools but the character's rewards are so lackluster especially for all the work that he has to do that Waft is really the only rewarding move he has.

He's a bad design. I like him, but not at top play.

 

[Wintropy]

Meh, I don't think Wario has a sword problem worse than the next guy. Saying Wario historically had a problem with swords is saying Wario struggled against Brawl Marth and MK. Everybody did.

Well, to be fair, there's Ike, Pit, Link and Tink to consider.

I don't know if Wario struggled with any of them, but there are other swordfighters in Brawl besides MK and Marth, even if they are fundamentally irrelevant.

Waft is a very interesting design choice in my opinion. It's a time bomb that can turn the tide of battle in an instant, and there's nothing you can do to stop it except just not get hit. Definitely embellishes whatever options Wario has by default. He has no range to keep you out, but that's okay, he's fast and you don't want to go near him when he's ready to go either.

I don't know if it's good design, but it's interesting. Very fun to watch.

 

[Yikarur]

Wario is more the bait and punish thing. I've seen Ike vs. Wario that ended in Timeout because no one can't approach effectively. You're just waving in and out with Wario to bait responses and if there is no (bad) response the match kinda stalemates. This is kinda what Wario wants because he charges waft this way but at some point you have to get in and at some point someone will do a mistake. I guess this match-up is really even.

 

[Nobie]

I think the question of how well swordsmen do against Wario isn't just about out-ranging him, but also to what extent they have power comparable to Wario's even with Waft taken into account.

It's not just that Ike has a big honkin' sword, it's that he also hits like a truck on moves that are fast AND strong.

Marth has tippers, and a tipper f-smash kills ALMOST as hard as a Waft.

Dedede I count as a pseudo-swordsman, and I believe his match with Wario to be even due to all of his range and power.

 

[Rikkhan]

So two questions, what do you think about the ryu vs lucario MU? I think it was at MLG that I saw False Ryu vs Day lucario and the match was very close and second is mario the best combo/string character? I mean he lacks a guaranteed kill combo, but he has the mobility and frame data to make DI'able/airdogdeable combos/strings very real, he also has no problem evaporating the first 60% of the opponent, mario can start his combos from any normal not named Ftilt I don't remember other character that is able to do that.

Edit: I believe it was False ryu not Trela

 

[ARGHETH]

So two questions, what do you think about the ryu vs lucario MU?

I'm not really familiar with this MU, but wouldn't character that kills early vs character that can really only kill with a good amount of Aura/Rage mean it's in Ryu's favor? Having a good projectile also helps.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I think the question of how well swordsmen do against Wario isn't just about out-ranging him, but also to what extent they have power comparable to Wario's even with Waft taken into account.

It's not just that Ike has a big honkin' sword, it's that he also hits like a truck on moves that are fast AND strong.

Marth has tippers, and a tipper f-smash kills ALMOST as hard as a Waft.

Dedede I count as a pseudo-swordsman, and I believe his match with Wario to be even due to all of his range and power.

Frame data is important. Dedede isn't gonna hit Wario. That MU is solidly in his favor.

 

[Rikkhan]

I'm not really familiar with this MU, but wouldn't character that kills early vs character that can really only kill with a good amount of Aura/Rage mean it's in Ryu's favor? Having a good projectile also helps.

What I remember from that set it was that Ryu had a hard time against Aura Sphere both the projectile and the charge effect, it looked like a very volatile match rather than consistent advantage for Ryu.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nah man, I'd sue you for the -5, not the decimals.

I know it's more like -7 but you can't argue with people!

Is a .5 a 55/45 or a 52.5/47.5?

If this is trolling then I actually appreciate it.
If it's a legit question then I have no idea? I'm pretty bad with these numbers. My point is that Rosie is Fox worst matchup in her own category, followed by Ryu and then Luigi/Sheik who are about the same. The way I see it the vs Sheik/Luigi matchups are too even to be a solid -1 at this point but at the same time they're not actually even.

No they're not.

Here's the thing about Wario's MUs - no one is gonna agree on them. The Wario MU thread and Skype group are all over the place with this. There's no general consensus on this character's MUs.

And it's all because waft is dumb.

I don't get this confusion over Wario's matchups. I think it's fairly well established that ee loses to Sheik, Fox, Diddy, Mario, Yoshi and MAYBE Falcon and goes even with the Sword dudes and Ganondorf [among many others]. He's genereally good at counter-trolling characters like Rosalina, Luigi, Villager, Pac-Man, MegaMan, Duck Hunt, etc.

But I guess a lot of people really do not know a lot about this character. People talk about his bait and punish game [which isn't better or worse than that of any other high tier character, really] but not how bike cockblocks pretty much any attempt at projectile camping him.

 

[Routa]

Playing against Waft is basically playing against Wario. There's nothing you can do to stop him from passively charging it, the only thing you can do is respect it.

Honestly, you need talk about the waft when you talk about a Wario mu. It's such a powerful comeback tool and quick KO move, to put in perspective half waft has almost the same power as a true SRK.

The thing is that when people discuss about Wario and his Wafts impact on MU... Well I would not call it a discussion.

Wario MU discussion in nutshell:

"Character X can out range him, kill him earlier, can edgeguard and do more that kind of stuff that makes Wario look like a piece of **** and is basically unbeatable MU for Wario..."

"BUT Wario has Waft. So 70:30 in Wario's favour."

Do you call that a discussion? I wouldn't. The thing is that no one knows enough about Waft (uses outside KO move, how to land it against specific character etc) to discuss about it (well expect TheReflexWonder ). This is the main reason why I mostly ignore Waft when discussing Wario's MUs. It is like G&W 9 hammer. It is there and everyone know it can end your life in a sec, but it is left unmentioned in almost every MU.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

All I know about Waft is that Rosalina (probably) hates it because Luma exists and thus Wario gets a free 20-something frame hitbox extension when he uses it. Good luck dodging that, you don't even need to get the bike positioned properly.

I say probably because I've never actually fought a Wario offline.

 

[Zelder]

If Wario ever becomes really dominant in the meta I hope he single handedly moves us away from 2 stocks. Because getting wafted on your second stock is absolute horse ****. I'M SALTY.

If this is trolling then I actually appreciate it.
If it's a legit question then I have no idea? I'm pretty bad with these numbers. My point is that Rosie is Fox worst matchup in her own category, followed by Ryu and then Luigi/Sheik who are about the same. The way I see it the vs Sheik/Luigi matchups are too even to be a solid -1 at this point but at the same time they're not actually even.

Naw not trolling, I just like categorizing everything into (semi)pointless numbers because I'm a weirdo.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If Wario ever becomes really dominant in the meta I hope he single handedly moves us away from 2 stocks. Because getting wafted on your second stock is absolute horse ****. I'M SALTY.



Naw not trolling, I just like categorizing everything into (semi)pointless numbers because I'm a weirdo.

It's still a good question because consistent baselines are important. +1 to me means 6:4, but +1 to someone else may mean 5.5:4.5. Because 6 minus 5 is 1, and 5.5 minus 4.5 is also 1.

Related: I don't like decimals in these ratios because that implies a level of precision that I'm not sure we legitimately have.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Getting grabbed by low-percent ZSS at 30% isn't as "bad" as dying to Rage Waft? At least you only need one good hit on Wario to KO him and mitigate his power in that situation.

 

[Gunla]

It's just the same result; you die. In the end, what matters is if it takes the stock or not. Early KOs happen all the time.

It's like getting HP gimped your second stock, or getting caped, or getting Kirbycided. You die at an early percent and the person who made the read did a good job getting it. And if you let yourself get killed by it, it's really your fault for letting it do so.

It's still a good question because consistent baselines are important. +1 to me means 6:4, but +1 to someone else may mean 5.5:4.5. Because 6 minus 5 is 1, and 5.5 minus 4.5 is also 1.

Related: I don't like decimals in these ratios because that implies a level of precision that I'm not sure we legitimately have.

It's why I tend to prefer the X:Y things above +1/-1. Leaves a bit less room for interpretation, especially when each of the ratios are given clear definitions. Sometimes I see someone say +1 is an advantage or that +.5 is.

If a baseline is established that removes much of the misinterpretation (such as what the BBR did), then it is less of an issue.