Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
My personal experience in the MU is very small, but I don't see how it's in Mario's favor. Greninja exploits Mario's disadvantaged state really well. Mario may not have the advantage in neutral either, which is what was widely believed.
Range is a factor, but it's mainly how well she controls the stage. She's weak without Luma, but she can avoid getting hit if she really, really tries. Dabuz does this very well when any sort of platforms are available.
Komo had to come back pretty hard on BF and 2stocked him on SV. Not sure why they made the decisions they did, but outside of actual results the general pace of the match still support my theory.
Range, edgeguarding, and negating mario's grab combos.
Interesting to see you say that. I also feel Greninja does well against Mario and could boast a slight advantage due to his range and mobility. 55:45 is possible.
Yeah, I'll agree here that it's most likely even. You know it's funny that you mention V's SD's, he actually sd'd twice in GFs at that same tournament where he beat Ally and won. V is primarly a Brawl player and has been since he started playing competitively, he didn't even own a Wii U until a few months ago... so he was basically going off Brawl fundamentals and winning what he can, sd's and all. I will agree here, and even Blacktwins has said the same thing to V. I think he could be a much more skilled player if he dedicated more time to Smash4, but alas you can't force someone to play a game they are not serious about.
Foxes pee on hedgehogs to make them unroll, and then eat them. pic.twitter.com/2yGtT2V2vS
— What The F*** Facts (@WhatTheFFacts) April 9, 2014
Ryu does struggle no doubt. But it can't be in Marth's advantage in my opinion because Ryu does too much damage per hit and kills too early. It's probably even (it's not like we've really seen the MU though) but Emblem Lord will tell you it's in Marth's favor.
I've only had success using it on Falcon and Dorf. Although I bet Fox's firefox recovery should be gimpable too sine it's so predictable and linear.
Can't help but think this comment went unnoticed. I mean, if Mario's top ten and loses to five prominent characters, then Pit would at least be right by him since he loses to the same amount of characters at worst. (Not a lot of agreement on our bad matchups so it's not really worth going into detail.) I understand that Pit's not usually put in top ten because of his lack of representation, of course.
What about Mii sizes? That matters a lot. A specific size can make Miis to jump up 1-2 tiers.
I would definitely say so for sure. There are still extremely good ZSS players such as Nick Riddle, however Nairo is certainly the highest placing and most popular ZSS main for Smash 4.
Disagree.
Shaya
say it's ZSS' hardest), so at the worst I can see an even matchup here, though the recent buffs may have turned the tides. Sonic is probably even or close to it (we don't know where the matchup actually lands in the range of values provided by Komorikiri for Sonic's matchups; it may be closer to 50:50 than 45:55 for all we know). I don't buy that Ryu is a bad matchup for Mario; I think Marios just need to stop up-smashing the falling focus attack (even d-smash with the double hit is a better choice). Ally was playing the MU vs. Trela significantly better than he played the MU vs. 9B even though 9B is probably the better Ryu. Ryu has one of the worst airdodges in the game, and he has trouble reversing his aerial momentum, so as long as Mario maximizes his punishes and plays a safe, almost campy game like Ally was doing against Trela in some of the matches then Mario should be fine.
HeroMystic
's list, and I've thought the same before, but Greninja mains have often said that Mario wins due to his up-tilt chains/combos and weaving/pressure, so here's yet another example of how Mario's "worst MUs" are not actually bad MUs but probably just "annoyingly even with some properties that Mario doesn't like." Oh no. How horrible. Poor Mario. He actually has to try.
Locke 06
), Olimar (probably after Sheik), etc. I've seen Shaya suggest that Mario is one of Marth's worst matchups before the Marth buffs and @san. suggest that Mario is Ike's hardest matchup before the Ike buffs. I've seen Fox (who is supposedly better than Mario) also struggle with Mario for what it's worth, though the matchup may be even regardless. Ally vs. Larry looked extremely difficult for Larry, at least.Having additional good players isn’t really a reason by itself that justifies her being #2 though. A lot of other perceived top 5-10 characters can generally make the same claim.
Someone talked to me about that match and I was impressed but then took a gander to previous Ally sets and have come to the conclusion he clearly doesn't want to play the MU at all and goes on auto pilot. Ally relies on hard reads and tries to get all in DK's face.....in a way that DK can combat it. Playing to DK's mid range game is what Ally tends to play. Hard reads are kinda ineffective on a character that uses hard reads themselves. Many of DK's moves are shield grab punish. What Dk has over mario, bar a slight on the ground mobility, is his savage mid range game and that's what keeps him in game. His onstage game is also strong (I would put it up there for very high onstage game/control), but focus on being in the air or force him to go into shield, then DK is kinda easy. Explains why you were will not be in shield for many games and sets.
You literally just mash Up-B when Mario D-airs you and you break it for more damage. It's not hard, given it's frame 3 invincible. Mario's pressure options on DK are limited a lot by this.
Leon and quiksilver were among the best players in the EU in Brawl times and both play ZSS in Smash 4. But the way I see it neither actually does a lot right now. Quik hardly attends tournaments and idk what Leon is doing, I think he's ranked 4th or so in France. I'm not sure how good France is holding up in smash 4 compared to Germany/Spain/Mr rIt's not only America and Canada that have good ZSS players, Choco does work with her in Japan as well. Not sure about Europe, however; don't suppose anyone knows about that (~ Gheb ~ ?)
Dk doesn't have a safe or fast move that covers or reaches in front of himself (hence why he sucks at approches or landings) so edgeguarding with DK comes with the easy to predict bairs or fresh up b (which yes the hitbox is actually huge), but that don't kill unless you wanna go deep and kiss the blastzones. It works on like CF and Ganon, not so much Mario.
It's mostly Sonic mains who consider it to be in Fox's favor. It's really more of an even matchup, the better player will win.
NairWizard
-- Honestly, I'm a bit contrary to most Mega Man players in my matchup analysis. This is for multiple reasons, that I don't really feel the need to go into, but just take that for what you will. I'll go over this because I enjoy the legitimate analyses that is happening in this thread now. Reminds me of the old productive CCI.
Well guess what, Mario's forward facing options are worse than DK's. DK at least has DA, downB, F-tilt (up angled is so good against air approaches), and perfect pivot U-tilt as options. Mario has...RAR B-air and dashgrab.
Locke 06
, what you mentioned is why Mario loses to Falcon imo. Falcon punishes Mario way too easily for doing rising aerials.
Mario loses when Ryu realizes he can play Street Fighter style footsies and Mario has no answer that doesnt involve a straight risk. And Focus Attack craps on land trap kill set-ups.
this is only so in smash, cuz sakurai loves to sacrifice competitive 1v1 viability for character feel and series representation. every other fighting game has fireball users at the top, or a character with ridiculous normals.
I've never understood how the fact that a character is only played by one high level player somehow invalidates what the character has been shown to be capable of
Did you just call DK's DA a forward option? Bruh, Mario's is way safer. Lol, down b is an approach with being frame 19 and quake hitbox? For a character that will be in the air a lot, I don't think so. Ftilt still misses up front and is a lackluster move outside the range it kinda provides. Generally it's an overrated move by non DK mains.Well guess what, Mario's forward facing options are worse than DK's. DK at least has DA, downB, F-tilt (up angled is so good against air approaches), and perfect pivot U-tilt as options. Mario has...RAR B-air and dashgrab.
Also Mario can't rising B-air DK while DK is crouching if I'm not mistaken, so D-tilt is still not a bad response to SH approaches.
Mario's D-air last hit is interrupted by 3 frame aerials. DK's Up-B is frame 3 invincible. You do the math. Furthermore this interrupts a lot of Mario's low% strings out of D-throw and U-tilt as well.
Also
Once Falcons simply recover low consistently against Mario's bad options to edgeguard low and counterpick to platform stages more, I believe it's one of Mario's harder matchups simply because he can't really answer Falcon's pressure or ground game that well, and Falcon is heavier and better at fishing for kills (with B-air).
It doesn't invalidate but it is still a mitigating factor.
I'm not going to get into if Mario is overrated or not, but I'd like to add that he also still has an unfavorable MU with Luigi. No killing easily with D-Throw makes it harder, but Luigi generally still outdamages Mario and gets greater rewards off of grab. That would be all.
It's not like "1 Pika players and several others placing decent"
