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Then again it's kind of a matter of context whether Mewtwo is actually more fragile than Jigglypuff. He dies noticeably later off the top because his fall speed is actually decent, and his recovery is somewhat harder and generally more dangerous to try and disrupt. Then on the other hand he's more vulnerable to strings than others of his weight.
Lucas only has 4 (and only 3 kill) throws but I guess they're so good we might make them 5 I guess.
Also, I have never seen a bird fly or glide straight while tilted like that. Freaking left wing will catch onto something and be torn off as he dashes through like that. Welp, looks like Falco will be the first one-armed fighter in Smash 5. That or he'll be DLC for Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain; the title of it would be "The Phantasm Pain". Gruesome, ain't it?Okay, I'm surprised that I never noticed the impact of this... Compare these images. What do you notice? Hint: something with their arms...
Yeah, I think because of the new animation for Falco Phantasm and perhaps even Fire Bird, Falco's kind of screwed because of that wing heightening his hurtbox. I'm sure Zinoto learned the timing of Falco Phantasm and Fox Illusion or just knows we, both Falco and Fox players, are so lenient with using our Side Specials to recover, but that wing might be helping Zinoto catch Falco more easily with Diddy's Dtilt like here: https://youtu.be/So7Pb0ee3C4?t=128. It also doesn't help that it only hits for the first half of the move. I understand making it so Falco's wings are spread, but I don't know why they made him tilt like that.
These are Fast Fire Bird and Flying Fox, but they're used because it's easier to see. Same dealio where Falco's wings are a bit higher than Fox's arms. Yeah... hurtboxes... Fun, aren't they?
I guess you can count down throw -> uair as a kill throw/set up.
Apparently there's such a thing as a nthrow, or Lucas is somehow killing people with his pummel.
It's a bird! It's a plane! It's... a bird pretending to be a plane.
Link's second hit doesn't true combo. Anybody can block or dodge any next attack you throw out. Link did use to have Jab1-> kill but because all the idiots on youtube found a way to "take advantage of it" with something that was hard to even pull off, he got nerfed. They got rid of Jab1 and any chance he had at an awesome CQ game.
Plot twist: it was the plane that was pretending to be a bird.
Get Lucas out of that list, swap him with Robin and lets just call that the official 1.1.2 top 28 tier list plzA1:
A2:
B1:
B2:
ROB is kinda already there.
So...put Rob at the end of the tier?
Speaks as though Ryu is overrated but has him ranked in top ten.Was listing my top 20 some days ago because reasons, and in terms of ordering, 1-4 was easy and felt clear enough (Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Sonic), 5-10 I surprisingly felt pretty similarly about (Mario, Diddy, Ryu, Ness, Pikachu, Fox), 11-17 is a bit difficult (MK, Villager, Falcon, Wario, Luigi, Yoshi, Ike) and same with 18-2X (Lucario, ROB, Pits, Peach, Olimar, Greninja, Pac-Man, DK, Mega Man, Lucas). Might as well call the categories something like A1, A2, B1 and B2 respectively. I do feel pretty good about where I'd place those gaps, and I think viability (to realistically place well at majors) stops after these by at least the current outlook. Prettier icon version:
A1:
A2:
B1:
B2:
Short explanations for cases that may not be super obvious:
Rosalina is clearly A1 because of her consistent results in both west and Japan and with Luma walling everything and preventing you from going for certain options because of interruption, and I think we've had plenty of time to see now that Rosalina doesn't have that much trouble waiting for the Luma respawns, but if she does get caught chances are the next Luma dies pretty quickly too. Plenty of really good moves and strong kill options. Sonic is probably A1 as well just because of how effectively he can control the pace of the match and how well he can threaten midrange and punish stuff like landings with his speed. Spring also lets him get out of a lot of stuff for free while also giving him the ability to edgeguard some characters without risk.
I still don't see anything special about Pikachu compared to the other characters he's in with, while Ness still has stronger showing and also arguably stronger tools than both Pikachu and Fox. I still think Ryu has to rely too much on landing SRK or dair with too tough of a time doing it on some characters to be really amazing, even if the moves and setups are as "dumb" as anything ZSS and MK have. Mario and Diddy have shown things more consistently than the others and are arguably more developed as well due to certain players using them.
MK barely falls to B1 because, despite the potential of his early kill setups, I think he has to rely too much on them to be quite reliable enough and make the cut. Luigi is somewhat uncertain because I haven't yet had the opportunity to completely experience how much his kill potential suffered, although I see it being Mario level at the moment. I think Yoshi is still largely a case of lacking representation, while Ike almost has too much of it.
Lucario is to B2 tier what ZSS is to A1 or what MK and Wario are to B1. Clutch factor and some good tools to get it done hold him above a certain placing for the foreseeable future. B2 is also full of characters who are clearly good but apparently not good enough to get any considerable results at least often enough (i.e. more than once by now). Pit would probably be called top 10 if Nairo used him exclusively, just seems like a really solid character overall, he simply lacks any particularly reliable kill options. Wish ZSS had his dash attack though, Pit's is just an objectively better version of that (unless the ZSS decides to use dash attacks instead of grabs to punish landings).
A bit uncertain of Mega Man and Lucas but the former sort of reminded people of his existence at MLG and the latter has surprisingly good hitboxes and frame data (in the form of endlag), plus like 5 actually strong kill throws. I think Lucas would be one of the characters people immediately called high tier if someone really good mained him. Wanted to make this much shorter but oh well ****
I am blind. :/
...Right. What results does he have?
On 3DS FD from default position on Mario, there's only a 10% difference between Bthrows.
Other than bomb-->stuff, what does he have?
can be 3rd best (or even top tier) in a game where is #1. still reigned supreme, and Rosa vs. Sheik is actually very doable. Now that ZSS might actually be the best character, and will in any case see more usage thanks to her sizeable buffs, Rosa is in a relatively tough spot. Her hardest MU will become more prevalent and possibly even harder thanks to said buffs. We already saw her losing to ZSS consistently and by wide margins. This really can't bode well for her solo viability. may have gone near-even with , but with lots of for his evenish Sheik and ZSS MUs, or otherwise pick from a long list of characters who are all-around solid and lose horribly to nobody. I actually think that if the game had just been released now, she'd wind up in a similar predicament as Luigi, with top talent hesitating to commit to her because of one atrocious MU. Fortunately, she already has a legion of great players, so she'll probably continue to be relevant, but top tier? I don't think so.
And this was without Nairo having to command the stage with Nair.
I think that a lot of people are claiming ZSS is the best character because of the new Sheild mechanics benefitting her significantly. This tourney was the first time Nairo and ZeRo fought competitively using the new shield mechanics and Nairo obliterated him. Japan I believe was also claiming ZSS was the best character a week ago as well due to the new shield mechanics.
Careful using the word "obliterate," over 2 sets, Nairo only won 6-3. Convincing, but not epically
I think they're referring to the three two-stocks he got at the end.
I won't pretend to be an expert but I have nothing but high praise for the character. He has good frame data, all his gamestates (neutral/adv/disadv) are good, he's an extremely potent zoner who can shut a lot of characters out and his tools are just straight up hard to play against IMO. Hydrant is a nightmare if you don't have a safe 13% move (thank **** for Greninja's Fair is all I can say). Finally his MU spread is good, he definitely doesn't get invalidated by Sheik (proof in Japan that it's very winnable) and I don't know about Rosa, all his MUs look winnable. And thanks mostly to Abadango he has some stellar tournament results. I don't see much going against him to suggest he's not at least top 20. His weaknesses include a lack of reliable kill options, THAT grab, and perhaps an over-reliance on unusual tools. They work right now but it's hard to see if they'll stay strong or end up being gimmicks. This isn't really a "weakness" though, just saying his future is hard to predict.
It's because she's basically Sheik but she kills you at 50%
Eh, what? They're such different characters that I'm not even sure where this statement comes from.
no she isnt... like at all... does she have fair strings that go to like 40 percent? does she have no risk high reward neutral? no she does not...
rob is definetly not that low... he has too many kill options! he is definetly around the 15th ish place but not below some of those characters :/
Mario's not bad at all lol.
Nobody's arguing that ...
Tri Knight
So Link's second jab can't be used to send opponents into enough hitstun to where he can actively hit them with a lot of attacks? So the official information in the game about it was wrong despite the developers intending for Link's Jab 1 > Jab 2 > Smash Attack/Spin Attack to work?
has a positive matchup against him due to being so safe, and the wall of pain.
Have we entered that realm where a 5.4:4.6 matchup at worst is considered a "solid win?"Komorikiri's Sonic Matchup List said:Slightly Advantageous 5.2:4.8 ~ 5.4:4.6
You're right. I'm sorry, I jumped the gun on that.Nobody's arguing that ...
Disagreed. Mario's pretty good at adapting, he's got zoning potential, combo potential, off-stage potential...he's just fundamentally solid.I think Mario is a little too basic to be near top 5. His playstyle is rather fixed, and it's hard for him to adapt to tricks that his opponent's playing. It's also kind of easy to gimp him. In all honesty, I say that
Ding ding ding.
Jigglypuff really isn't safe at all, and I don't see how she wins against Mario.I think Mario is a little too basic to be near top 5. His playstyle is rather fixed, and it's hard for him to adapt to tricks that his opponent's playing. It's also kind of easy to gimp him. In all honesty, I say that
