Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Greward]

I thought pocket made villager a bad MU?

Nah.

If he pockets MB, we can get another out, so we don't really care.
Pellet / Crash bomb aren't really important if he pockets them either.
Fsmash pocketed may be strong, but it's not like Mega Man uses fsmash a lot because it is an awfully bad move, so if we don't ever use it in the matchup it's not a problem.
Up air / Hard knuckle pocketed do hurt, but still doesn't affect the matchup too much.

Main strength Mega has over villager is that we outcamp him and he has troubles approaching because he's very slow. Pocket doesn't help much in that.

 

[Nobie]

Sheik is a tough matchup for Mega Man, made all the tougher by the fact that it was MR. R, one of the best Sheiks in the world.

Fox is not too bad for Mega Man. It might still be in Fox's favor, but Fox has to be REALLY careful how he uses his Reflector. Shooting two pellets will cancel out any bounce-back from lemon approaches, and the recovery time on shine means he risks getting grabbed or eating an uppercut. On top of that, if Fox recovers low he makes himself super vulnerable to Mega Man's fantastic back air. Also of note is Mega Man's superior air mobility, which lets him juke to try and fake out Fox. Fox has the edge in general, but just the fact that Mega Man is small and heavy (and particularly difficult to kill off the top) means Fox has to put in extra work.

As for Villager, Pocket is almost a non-issue. The only things Mega Man potentially has to worry about getting pocketed are Charge Shot, Hard Knuckle, and to a much lesser extent Air Shooter. The trick to using Charge Shot against Villager is to simply throw it out when the Villager least expects it, during a roll or a tech roll or even when they're trying to do an attack or read of their own. In terms of the other projectiles, here's how little Mega Man has to worry about Pocket:

-Congratulations, you just Pocketed a lemon. For every one that you can throw, Mega Man can throw 3.
-You just Pocketed a Metal Blade. But wait, unlike cans or hydrants or whatever, Mega Man can pull out a spare Metal Blade should his original get pocketed. On top of that, pellets beat Metal Blade.
-You got a Crash Bomb, or a Leaf Shield. Whoohoo?

The sheer variety of projectiles available to Mega Man on top of being far superior in terms of mobility means he's able to just shut down Villager's zoning game. The difficulty of the matchup, however, is that Mega Man has some trouble netting kills, and Villager's defensive game is super strong. As you build up Villager's percent, you increasingly risk getting struck by a stray bowling ball or a rage back throw.

So basically, it's an unpleasant matchup on both sides that's sort of fun it its own way but requires you to really, really like zoning out your opponent without being able to reliably end stocks.

 

[Nu~]

Well actually, hydrants can be still be dropped when pocketed.

 

[DunnoBro]

Wait, do luigi's smashes have the best frame data in the game? (Even faster/less endlag than macs, just not as strong/armor)

And ya'll complainin about gettin kills? lol

 

[Vipermoon]

Wait, do luigi's smashes have the best frame data in the game? (Even faster/less endlag than macs, just not as strong/armor)

And ya'll complainin about gettin kills? lol

Yeah I can't believe Luigi. Best damage and best frame data hands down.

Hi, I'm Luigi, my frame 2 jab combo does 10% and has enough base knockback for tumble knockback at 0%. All 3 hits of my jab also happen to be lagless.

Hi, I'm Link, and my frame 7 jab combo does 10%.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Pocketed leaf shield is actually decent cause it clears all of our prokectiles but Fsmash and can continue to hit us. But not really worth the low damage.

Also Mega can spam Metal blade and crash Bomb and there isn't much villager can do. Mb hits him through Lloyd and the tree and crash Bomb blows up on both and usually kills Lloyd.

There isn't a reason we need to use Fsmash against villager, and we can kill him with Bair or Bthrow fairly easily. It is def not a negative matchup for us, even at worst.

I have never gotten a hard knuckle reflected by Mario. It usually isn't worth it for him because if he miss times it he is done and most of the time his up b goes trough it.

Mega vs fox is tough because he combos us so well but we can get early kills and gimps on him if he isn't careful.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

I'm wondering if there's reason to believe Palutena is a viable counterpick for certain matchups. Probably not, but that doesn't stop me. I'd definitely rather her in matchups where a reliable reflector is useful (Dedede, Villager, etc) or just to make good of matchup inexperience. The fact that she plays so fundamentally differently from Pit helps.

Well, for what it's worth, a Canadian Palutena called IceNinja 2-0'd Holy and beat Poke's DK/Luigi 3-1 at a monthly last week. Neither Ice or Holy knew the matchup too well so it's hard to tell what might've happened otherwise. Poke has a good amount of experience in the matchup tho. IceNinja and Poke play against each other frequently.

EDIT: It's also worth mentioning that IceNinja had a really close set and took games off of Ally at Summit. TLTC beat Zenyou 2-1 at a regional a couple months ago, too.

 

[Mario766]

Luigi's jab combo could be worse.

It could be 16 percent and comboable with itself.

Brawl Ike jab when.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Default Palutena is definitely not great; I don't see her being quite as terrible as Samus; no question about it, she's better. But against rushdowns like Sheik and Sonic, she has a pretty miserable time since they're going to be in her face; and without Lightweight, she's pretty much helpless against them.

Add Lightweight into the equation, though, and I can easily see Palutena being mid-tier. But she's still not quite as good as Charizard; she lacks some of his more destructive options, even with customs on.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wait, do luigi's smashes have the best frame data in the game? (Even faster/less endlag than macs, just not as strong/armor)

And ya'll complainin about gettin kills? lol

I think while this whole "Luigi can't kill at all now" thing is highly exaggerated, and his Smashes are no doubt very good, I think fishing with him is a bit harder because of his poor air mobility making air-to-ground (and vice versa) mixups a bit harder than say, like, Mario. Additionally his floaty jump and increased height along with really bleh fastfall speed doesn't help.

More people should be using Luigi FSmash at this point honestly, it's not unbearably slow (F12) and the angled up version is quite devastating. I think his only mediocre Smash is DSmash cause its angle and knockback insofar as the front hit (which is where you'll usually hit with it) aren't that impressive.

 

[Wintropy]

Palutena's customs definitely make her a better character. Even so, the nerf to Explosive Flame's shied pierce is a big setback for her zoning game.

Palutena doesn't need destructive power. She needs safety. Explosive Flame (even weakened), Super Speed, Jump Glide and Lightweight offer to her that to some degree: even if they don't change the fact that her frame data is pretty weak and she has to fish for setups more often than not, they offer her good options to reset to neutral, the ability to force advantage in a pinch, very good followup options and ensures that she has way better time off-stage.

Customs don't fix her biggest problems, but they do embellish what she has. They enable her to do things, which is a benefit in itself.

That said, I think people need to stop focusing on what characters don't have and instead focus on what characters do have. When Nairo counterpicked Doc against ESAM's Pikachu and ESAM counter-counterpicked Samus, I don't think they were sweating what options the characters don't have that better characters do: they weighed up the options the character does have, discerned why it's of benefit in that particular matchup and played it to their advantage. It won't magically make bad characters better, but it might open up applicable possibilities within the character's abilities that hadn't been considered before.

Even the Doc discussion we just had is worth considering. While I disagree with @A2ZOMG's theory that Doc has a better recovery than X number of characters, I do think what he says has merit. Doc has a bad recovery in his up-b, everybody gets that; however, he has other options that can be potentially explored which, while not necessarily beneficial in terms of recovery, do demonstrate that he can do interesting things if people put the time into discovering it. Doc may not be a great solo main because of his terrible movement speed and weak recovery, but his 'nado can be useful in its own right and definitely embellishes his kit.

Instead of trying to make every character solo viable and writing them off as trash if they don't fit that exceptionally narrow criteria, we should be trying to distinguish what uses, however niche, every character has. Even if it's something as simple as a viable counterpick for one or two matchups, it means they do have competitive use and can be good in the right hands. This has been done to some extent, but I think now is a good time to see if we can go further with it. There's a wealth of potential to be discovered in the game, we just have to be willing to go out and find it.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yeah I can't believe Luigi. Best damage and best frame data hands down.

Hi, I'm Luigi, my frame 2 jab combo does 10% and has enough base knockback for tumble knockback at 0%. All 3 hits of my jab also happen to be lagless.

Hi, I'm Link, and my frame 7 jab combo does 10%.

On the topic of smashes, after finding out how to kill off DHD's dthrow reliably (when they air dodge/buffer jump properly) It really concretes my theory that the reason for his lack of viability are his smashes. If he had the smashes of literally any other character I think he'd be very viable. (Even pre-patch WFT)

FAFs of 58-67. Not only the worst frame data but probably the worst hitboxes and low-mid tier on power at best.

 

[Antonykun]

I thought pocket made villager a bad MU?

Villager can only pocket one thing and MM is a machine gun who don't care if you pocket stuff

 

[TTTTTsd]

I did ask Nairo why he picked Doc in the Doc Social and he did respond (for those wondering it's in the Doc social on the boards here, thx @Nairo . He said it was cause he was a lot more used to Doc's strings and combo game (he plays Doc more than Mario on his stream cause he finds him fun I guess) so ultimately Doc was a familiarity pick as far as that goes, he went on to explain that he think both Doc and Mario do well against Pikachu (Mario prolly does better but that's not the crux of the discussion) and said that outside of gimps, the MU is pretty good for Doc cause Pika has to come in close to be most effective and that's where Doc wants...well, anyone.

So it was actually a thought-out counterpick based on what I will consider to be like, experience and time invested. I do think it's relevant to discuss characters like Doc having good or decent MUs with relevant characters, whether they are high tier or even top tier, because it's MU discussion which is in it of itself fairly healthy, but also because it can substantiate interesting insight into the idea of counterpicks and the role of said character in the game.

I think it's pretty easy to say that this established Doc's role as a secondary/counterpick type of character, but more insight and discussion into other MUs that AREN'T just Pika would also be great. The only other ones I can think of where Doc functions well (well being like, not horrible. By no means largely advantaged) against high/top tiers are
- Mario
- Luigi (yes really)
- Fox
- Ness
I just don't know if we have ENOUGH data to talk about these yet. These are just MUs I can safely assume/suspect to be reasonably doable and not disadvantaged enough to be notable. We've talked about his crap MUs more than enough I think (ZSS is summed up in two words: Flip. Jump.) so if it's even worth going on about, these are the ones I can think of as far as competitively relevant and frequently occurring characters. I've had thoughts on Doc vs. Falcon being okay-ish (he loses by a bit I think, personally) because their punish games on each other are Grade A disgusting tier and Doc can discourage a lot of general Falcon decisions if he plays smart.

I think with all this in mind, approaching Doc as "defensive Mario" is probably not the best mindset at any rate. I think he trades off Mario's ease of getting in with an advantage state that ranges from a bit lackluster to much more depending on the fall speed and weight of his opponent (D-Throw > Fair working consistently on some strong competitive chars for instance, alongside a lot of Doc's combos and strings being stronger against certain weights), I can't think of any place Doc wants to be outside of up close in some way. (On that note I REALLY want those MLG VODs to get uploaded so I can look at the strings used in the LF set again just to see optimal strings and dmg vs. perfect character weight)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hey ~ Gheb ~ , who do you think is the best Fox player in the world currently?

Larry is the best Fox player at the moment by a noticeable margin. Though that's not really an opinion as much as a well established fact.

 

[Jucchan]

What results does ROB have in Japan? Genuine question.

Ginko (also Pac-man and Mewtwo): 3rd Hyper Sumabato, Top 16 Umebura FAT
Sopumo: Top 16 Hyper Sumabato, Top 16 Sumabato 4
Sumabato is usually 180~200 entrants, Umebura FAT was 300+.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So, ZeRo been using Diddy a lot lately. Like I predicted. He definitely feels better this patch, and much, MUCH safer on block. So its easy to say he´s still a Top Tier. Where do we rank him here?

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Another thing to mention about mega man is that if customs ever become the norm he will go up quite a lot on the tier list, he has the best overall variation for customs that allow him to be much more viable.

Danger wrap alone will help with every matchup he has especially the lighter ones (sheik, fox, Mario) who are really the only really bad matchups he has.

Although I don't see customs coming back anytime soon.

 

[meleebrawler]

I feel like R.O.B is one of those characters we never really considered what added shieldstun meant for him.

 

[Chalice]

Larry is the best Fox player at the moment by a noticeable margin. Though that's not really an opinion as much as a well established fact.

Who would you say then is a close second?

 

[Trifroze]

That said, I think people need to stop focusing on what characters don't have and instead focus on what characters do have. When Nairo counterpicked Doc against ESAM's Pikachu and ESAM counter-counterpicked Samus, I don't think they were sweating what options the characters don't have that better characters do: they weighed up the options the character does have, discerned why it's of benefit in that particular matchup and played it to their advantage. It won't magically make bad characters better, but it might open up applicable possibilities within the character's abilities that hadn't been considered before.

I don't think anyone is outright focusing on the negative aspects of any character, as the only times consistent discussion actually spurs here are when someone starts talking about the potential of a specific character or (sometimes rightfully) complaining about how polarizing some characters' certain options are.

It's simply that, at a point when someone makes a false claim about the abilities of a character, it becomes important to point out that the character does not in fact have these abilities. This is to simply prevent groundless impressions from spreading and to redirect the positive attention to where it should be if there is a place for such. When matchups are the context however, it's just as important to acknowledge your weaknesses as it is to acknowledge your strengths, and this is what it ultimately always comes to. When trying to look for hidden potential you should always focus on strengths, but once something is found and you're judging whether this potential is considerable, insignificant or something inbetween, you have to acknowledge weaknesses just as much.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think anyone is outright focusing on the negative aspects of any character, as the only times consistent discussion actually spurs here are when someone starts talking about the potential of a specific character or (sometimes rightfully) complaining about how polarizing some characters' certain options are.

It's simply that, at a point when someone makes a false claim about the abilities of a character, it becomes important to point out that the character does not in fact have these abilities. This is to simply prevent groundless impressions from spreading and to redirect the positive attention to where it should be if there is a place for such. When matchups are the context however, it's just as important to acknowledge your weaknesses as it is to acknowledge your strengths, and this is what it ultimately always comes to. When trying to look for hidden potential you should always focus on strengths, but once something is found and you're judging whether this potential is considerable, insignificant or something inbetween, you have to acknowledge weaknesses just as much.

This can't be stated enough, personally. There's a lot of truths about Doc that a lot of people generally didn't know (and learned) from this entire thing but, gotta take a deep breath and calm down.

Also I think Nairo was one of the only Docs I've seen who constantly got D-Throw > Fair off in setplay, I did some digging and got some %s and ranges for it (DO NOTE this is without rage. With Rage you can probably subtract the starting percent and the latest percent accordingly) Credit to TheRealCarterer cause this is straight off his vid:

Spoiler: Ranges

Diddy = 93% to 109%
Little Mac = 78% to 113%
Link = 100% to 112%
Sheik = 80% to 98%
ZSS = 70% to 115%
Marth = 83% to 110%
Robin = 95% to 105%
Duck Hunt = 95% to 110%
Meta Knight = 70% to 95%
Fox = 70% to 101%
Falco = 80% to 102%
Pikachu = 68% to 89%
Lucario = 107% to 117%
R.O.B. = 121% to 125%
Captain Falcon = 110% to 133%
Olimar = 70% to 86%
Lucina = 83% to 110%
MegaMan = 108% to 128%
Mewtwo = 60% to 84%
Roy = 105% to 145%
Ryu = 109%

Makes me wonder why no Docs that we see in tournament (the rare ones) seem to hit this consistently (could be my faulty memory but Nairo always got it when he went for it at the right %s). The ranges seem really generous for certain chars even with Rage being annoying.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Who would you say then is a close second?

There's honestly nobody close right now. At one point it started to look like Nietono's Fox was about to catch up but that's already a thing of the past. So after Larry there's a noticeable gap now and then there's a crapload of high-mid to high level dudes who rep Fox on a mostly local/regional level. Out of those I'd rate Megafox and the German foxes the highest but it's hard to say for sure. Snow, Bloodcross, Dugan, Ksev, Tension and SH are all competent with Fox, they just aren't top level players. Chances are I'm forgetting somebody too. There's so many high-mid level Fox players out there, it's really hard to keep track of them all at once.

But yeah, none of them is really close to Larry.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I did ask Nairo why he picked Doc in the Doc Social and he did respond (for those wondering it's in the Doc social on the boards here, thx @Nairo . He said it was cause he was a lot more used to Doc's strings and combo game (he plays Doc more than Mario on his stream cause he finds him fun I guess) so ultimately Doc was a familiarity pick as far as that goes, he went on to explain that he think both Doc and Mario do well against Pikachu (Mario prolly does better but that's not the crux of the discussion) and said that outside of gimps, the MU is pretty good for Doc cause Pika has to come in close to be most effective and that's where Doc wants...well, anyone.

So it was actually a thought-out counterpick based on what I will consider to be like, experience and time invested. I do think it's relevant to discuss characters like Doc having good or decent MUs with relevant characters, whether they are high tier or even top tier, because it's MU discussion which is in it of itself fairly healthy, but also because it can substantiate interesting insight into the idea of counterpicks and the role of said character in the game.

I think it's pretty easy to say that this established Doc's role as a secondary/counterpick type of character, but more insight and discussion into other MUs that AREN'T just Pika would also be great. The only other ones I can think of where Doc functions well (well being like, not horrible. By no means largely advantaged) against high/top tiers are
- Mario
- Luigi (yes really)
- Fox
- Ness
I just don't know if we have ENOUGH data to talk about these yet. These are just MUs I can safely assume/suspect to be reasonably doable and not disadvantaged enough to be notable. We've talked about his crap MUs more than enough I think (ZSS is summed up in two words: Flip. Jump.) so if it's even worth going on about, these are the ones I can think of as far as competitively relevant and frequently occurring characters. I've had thoughts on Doc vs. Falcon being okay-ish (he loses by a bit I think, personally) because their punish games on each other are Grade A disgusting tier and Doc can discourage a lot of general Falcon decisions if he plays smart.

I think with all this in mind, approaching Doc as "defensive Mario" is probably not the best mindset at any rate. I think he trades off Mario's ease of getting in with an advantage state that ranges from a bit lackluster to much more depending on the fall speed and weight of his opponent (D-Throw > Fair working consistently on some strong competitive chars for instance, alongside a lot of Doc's combos and strings being stronger against certain weights), I can't think of any place Doc wants to be outside of up close in some way. (On that note I REALLY want those MLG VODs to get uploaded so I can look at the strings used in the LF set again just to see optimal strings and dmg vs. perfect character weight)

Falcon vs Doc to me is even-ish as long as you don't let Falcon outplay you too hard.
It's a very fun matchup at least from Doc's perspective, Falcon has a very bad Disadvantage State, so if we're able to get anything started on Falcon, he's not going to enjoy it. If your grabs are on point during this matchup, you can quickly rack up an insane amount of damage to Falcon, which can be further intensified if Falcon doesnt know the matchup, just a reminder however that you won't enjoy his combos either, as they do very good damage as well. Gimping him is also very easy, as soon as he's forced to recover low ( A Dsmash at MidHigh% can do the job of forcing Falcon into a low recovery ) , he's just kind of doomed. In terms of the neutral game, we have a projectile & our regular spacing tools, but Falcon's superior mobility lets him get some stuff faster than you can, respect his good mobility & don't choke,you should be fine. Overall, it's just a very enjoyable matchup & even to me.

Another matchup i really like with Doc is Sonic:
Well, i don't like it, but it doesn't feel bad for us. Vs Sonic, you absolutely have to be on point with everything you're using: Tornado, Pills, Grabs, SH FF Rar Bairs, and other tools have to be used wisely & at the right time, or otherwise you might just eat 25% out of Spindash BS. Sonic isn't the best at killing so try to stall for a bit.

Edit: Will go into further details later, i have to go.

 

[Jams.]

Can we talk about for a bit?
He's interesting & definitly an alright zoner in this game, but idk exactly what to think as of right now, with its mediocre results in majors ( excluding Japan ) & hindering matchups vs some of the characters above him.

ROB never really gets much discussion here, and I feel like it's because most posters already have a pretty established opinion of him. There really hasn't been a reason to change your opinion of his viability since he hasn't been changed since the uthrow nerf, nor has he had major breakthroughs at tournaments or major metagame advancements.

Historically, his results at NA majors have been carried by one person: 8bitman. Since he didn't attend some recent majors (PAX, BH5, MLG), ROB's results have suffered. On the other hand, ROB has always had a pretty strong presence on the regional and local level.

His top tier matchup spread is pretty mediocre. was a good matchup for ROB, so his nerfs indirectly hurt ROB's viability (though Luigi wasn't common at top level anyway). is a death sentence and will always be a death sentence until she stops kicking large characters into oblivion. and are also pretty tough matchups. ROB's top tier matchup spread is probably worse than most characters common placed around him in tier lists, but he gets by because he has better representation (at least in NA) than most of those characters as well (ie. , , ). I would say his combination of good regional representation combined with his mediocre matchup spread tends to get him overrated by a fair number of players, though maybe I'm just a cynical ROB main.

The character also has a couple set-ups that feel incredibly oppressive and unfair (gyro ledge traps, beep boop); I think these set-ups also bloat players' opinions of a character, the same way people become biased against Rosalina when they die to her uair at 30%.

 

[Zelder]

The character also has a couple set-ups that feel incredibly oppressive and unfair (gyro ledge traps, beep boop); I think these set-ups also bloat players' opinions of a character, the same way people become biased against Rosalina when they die to her uair at 30%.

Or fighting a Yoshi online.

 

[LancerStaff]

Palutena's customs definitely make her a better character. Even so, the nerf to Explosive Flame's shied pierce is a big setback for her zoning game.

I keep hearing you could of just rolled out of it before the final hit before... If that's the case, then it really couldn't of been a big nerf.

 

[Vipermoon]

This can't be stated enough, personally. There's a lot of truths about Doc that a lot of people generally didn't know (and learned) from this entire thing but, gotta take a deep breath and calm down.

Also I think Nairo was one of the only Docs I've seen who constantly got D-Throw > Fair off in setplay, I did some digging and got some %s and ranges for it (DO NOTE this is without rage. With Rage you can probably subtract the starting percent and the latest percent accordingly) Credit to TheRealCarterer cause this is straight off his vid:

Spoiler: Ranges

Diddy = 93% to 109%
Little Mac = 78% to 113%
Link = 100% to 112%
Sheik = 80% to 98%
ZSS = 70% to 115%
Marth = 83% to 110%
Robin = 95% to 105%
Duck Hunt = 95% to 110%
Meta Knight = 70% to 95%
Fox = 70% to 101%
Falco = 80% to 102%
Pikachu = 68% to 89%
Lucario = 107% to 117%
R.O.B. = 121% to 125%
Captain Falcon = 110% to 133%
Olimar = 70% to 86%
Lucina = 83% to 110%
MegaMan = 108% to 128%
Mewtwo = 60% to 84%
Roy = 105% to 145%
Ryu = 109%

Makes me wonder why no Docs that we see in tournament (the rare ones) seem to hit this consistently (could be my faulty memory but Nairo always got it when he went for it at the right %s). The ranges seem really generous for certain chars even with Rage being annoying.

Because you see, as knockback increases, one can air dodge earlier and earlier before hitstun ends.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-44#post-20106322

The training mode combo counter (which was used in determining these Dthrow Fair ranges) is not as reliable as it seems. So these ranges are not as large nor do they cover as many characters as it seems. Mario's Dthrow to Fair no doubt works better (I've seen Ally do it to most characters at this point) because his jump is higher than Doc's in the same timeframe.

 

[Bloodcross]

~ Gheb ~ who are these german foxes?

 

[DunnoBro]

I keep hearing you could of just rolled out of it before the final hit before... If that's the case, then it really couldn't of been a big nerf.

Some characters could based on positioning I think, it was essentially like depending on a powershield though.

It wasn't a big nerf to begin with though since it wasn't an integral part of her game in customs. Also IIRC both M2k and Aerolink used autoretical due to more reliable control and conditioning for grabs with lightweight.

Because you see, as knockback increases, one can air dodge earlier and earlier before hitstun ends.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-44#post-20106322

The training mode combo counter (which was used in determining these Dthrow Fair ranges) is not as reliable as it seems. So these ranges are not as large nor do they cover as many characters as it seems. Mario's Dthrow to Fair no doubt works better (I've seen Ally do it to most characters at this point) because his jump is higher than Doc's in the same timeframe.

Aaactually when mario does dthrow > fair it very often isn't a true combo but is in fact just getting their attempt at jumping/not air dodging. You'd need to essentially buffer an air dodge to avoid it and doing this can also get you killed when read.

Mario can even fair a sonic trying to spring away. (The spring will come out but sonic will still get spiked)

 

[momochuu]

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-brabant-tournament-4-by-byoc-netherlands.421038/#post-20328688

oh look. a tournament won by greninja. basically solo. too bad it doesn't matter because (insert stupid reason).

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc D-Throw > Fair is a combo you can not airdodge out of tho. The problem is
- Rage gets in the way (I think this is the reason people don't hit it all the time unless they get a grab in at the right %s.)
- It's DI dependent.

Basically if Doc knows where you're going to DI and you're vulnerable to D-Throw > Fair and he catches you with it, you're probably dead.

http://www.twitch.tv/edmontongamers/v/20267354?t=2h46m9s

It's pretty reliable if you're good at, well, catching DI. It's basically like it was in Melee except more specific % ranges and you have to read the DI a bit better because of how you have to sweetspot Fair.

 

[Vipermoon]

Doc D-Throw > Fair is a combo you can not airdodge out of tho. The problem is
- Rage gets in the way (I think this is the reason people don't hit it all the time unless they get a grab in at the right %s.)
- It's DI dependent.

Basically if Doc knows where you're going to DI and you're vulnerable to D-Throw > Fair and he catches you with it, you're probably dead.

http://www.twitch.tv/edmontongamers/v/20267354?t=2h46m9s

It's pretty reliable if you're good at, well, catching DI. It's basically like it was in Melee except more specific % ranges and you have to read the DI a bit better because of how you have to sweetspot Fair.

I showed you proof that you can air dodge before hitstun ends.

I have an example. I was playing ZeRo's Doc once as Marth and he tried it (twice in a row). I air dodged, even though I was in that enormous % range it has for Marth.

Aaactually when mario does dthrow > fair it very often isn't a true combo but is in fact just getting their attempt at jumping/not air dodging. You'd need to essentially buffer an air dodge to avoid it and doing this can also get you killed when read.

Mario can even fair a sonic trying to spring away. (The spring will come out but sonic will still get spiked)

Yeah that actually makes sense. If Mario is able to jump higher for the Fair, that means Dthrow is doing a little more knockback than a Doc Dthrow to Fair. If Dthrow is doing more knockback the interval that you can air dodge before the end of hitstun increased. Even specials, like you said, the spring came out. Specials can interrupt hitstun too as you saw in the chart.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I showed you proof that you can air dodge before hitstun ends.

I have an example. I was playing ZeRo's Doc once as Marth and he tried it (twice in a row). I air dodged, even though I was in that enormous % range it has for Marth.

Do you remember the % you were at + how much Rage he had accumulated? Is there footage of this happening? Otherwise while what you posted about airdodging on high knockback is right the VOD I posted kind of directly contradicts this insofar as Doc's setup not working as a combo.

The snippet I just linked, watch the player cam. I am almost positive the dude's hitting shoulder button. It happened more than once in that set.

 

[Trifroze]

I actually mentioned about the differences between airdodge/attack/jump timings from the hitstun of different attacks sometime in May or June.

It's not that surprising either, it's the whole reason 50:50s like Sheik's dthrow work. If airdodge wasn't faster than jumping, you could just jump out of it every time.

 

[Vipermoon]

Do you remember the % you were at + how much Rage he had accumulated? Is there footage of this happening? Otherwise while what you posted about airdodging on high knockback is right the VOD I posted kind of directly contradicts this insofar as Doc's setup not working as a combo.

All I remember was that Doc didn't have rage (I just killed him). It was on his stream. I'm not going to try to look for it in the archives because it was very long time ago (don't even know if archives stay for that long) and it's not necessary because I showed you proof.

 

[bc1910]

I actually mentioned about the differences between airdodge/attack/jump timings from the hitstun of different attacks sometime in May or June.

It's not that surprising either, it's the whole reason 50:50s like Sheik's dthrow work. If airdodge wasn't faster than jumping, you could just jump out of it every time.

Alternatively you'd be unable to airdodge and get Uair'd every single time.

 

[Vipermoon]

TTTTTsd I watched it. I mean we didn't say Dthrow to Fair doesn't work. ZSS has a high gravity and high fall speed value. She is one of the characters this is very reliable on.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario's D-throw > F-air is a combo if you DI inwards/poorly. If you DI outwards then it isn't a combo at all. You're better off doing RAR B-air.

Doc's D-throw > F-air is a combo but not a true one. The ZSS in the vid was definitely attempting to air dodge because it happened twice in that set. Maybe it wasn't buffered (I honestly can't tell), but it also means Doc has a 50/50 kill setup if air dodge does have to be buffered.

I know the Doc boards had data on this before but those were patches ago. Likely unreliable.

 

[Vipermoon]

Mario's D-throw > F-air is a combo if you DI inwards/poorly. If you DI outwards then it isn't a combo at all. You're better off doing RAR B-air.

Doc's D-throw > F-air is a combo but not a true one. The ZSS in the vid was definitely attempting to air dodge because it happened twice in that set. Maybe it wasn't buffered (I honestly can't tell), but it also means Doc has a 50/50 kill setup if air dodge does have to be buffered.

I know the Doc boards had data on this before but those were patches ago. Likely unreliable.

Well I don't think any of the patches make a difference for this. But yes, it is a 50:50. Actually, whenever I'm Doc on FG, I usually bait the air dodge before Fairing because it usually gets air dodged if I go for the combo.