Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

A2ZOMG arent you the guy that said your going to boycott going to tournaments until they revert shield stun because it promotes campy play?

Apparently not, cuz:

I play Doc in tournament and FRANKLY if people in the SoCal PR aren't gimping my Doc in tournament, are we supposed to conclude that SoCal, one of the most stacked regions in the USA, is bad?

Personally me, I think it's much more realistic to suggest that Doc's recovery in fact is not a relevant weakness competitively.

I know, but I meant for my post to originally come before his.
And yes, some people may not hit the counter, some may use projectiles, but what if Mac uses the counter on the projectiles instead? There's so many scenarios that can be played out with Mac, so many to Doc..

Bruh, people will download that slip counter so fast. Plus, There's not that much reward for gimping him anyway, cuz he'll never make it back to the stage by any strong hit over 80%

 

[Vipermoon]

Some people don't know who Ally is. They don't see what he does with Mario's Dair and Fair and Nair and Uair and Bair (oh wait that's everything). Most of it has to do with Mario's extremely superior mobility. Smash 4 Mario is overtuned, Doc still has worse mobility and similar damage output as Brawl Mario.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/tier_list#Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl_tier_list

F tier? What!? That can't be right

 

[Radical Larry]

A2ZOMG arent you the guy that said your going to boycott going to tournaments until they revert shield stun because it promotes campy play?

(He's Radical Larry 2.0)

Most of what you're talking about doesn't matter. Good players do the following:

DI
Conserve options.

Also semi-spikes are in fact...rare.

Factoring all those, Doc's recovery is completely fine, and in fact better off than many recoveries simply because Tornado is a very robust mixup option to avoid edgeguard commitments.

I can list the two most prominent Semi-Spikes, Link's D-Smash (back hit), Little Mac's D-Smash and Ganondorf's F-Tilt. Now while Shulk, Bowser and DK may get hit by Ganondorf's Semi-Spike F-Tilt, due to them all being vulnerable to Flame Choke > F-Tilt, Doc has it worse because a semi-spike from something like Ganondorf's F-Tilt is pretty much more deadly to him than the others.

Shulk, Bowser, DK, Roy and Falcon can survive semi-spikes in the game. Doc can't. If Doc is hit by a semi-spike, it's all over for him if he's in the magnetic line even if he has the tools. Ganondorf could just be at the edge waiting to F-Air him. The other characters can at least recover better than Doc can ever, and it's all thanks in part due to their superior air speed and recoveries.

It's hilarious to think that Tornado is good against edge-guarding, seeing as the opponent would need to be brain dead to not figure out that he has a 35 frame disadvantage after the attack ends, thus leading to a gimp, nor figure out to use a much better-ranged attack against him (which pretty much everyone has going against Doc, even Little Mac).

Tornado isn't as hype as you think it can be.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Some people don't know who Ally is. They don't see what he does with Mario's Dair and Fair and Nair and Uair and Bair (oh wait that's everything). Most of it has to do with Mario's extremely superior mobility. Smash 4 Mario is overtuned, Doc still has worse mobility and similar damage output as Brawl Mario.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/tier_list#Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl_tier_list

F tier? What!? That can't be right

Mario is better than Yoshi realistically in that game.

Doc also has the advantage against Mario in this game. Botastic took a game off Zenyou's Mario with Doc, and he was playing like he was on tilt, and forced a character switch.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Zelda has a hitbox on Up-B. Palutena does not. Huge huge huge difference. Means Zelda is considerably less vulnerable to ledge pressure.

When does that actually come into play when recovering though? I see people go offstage to contest her recovery and do so successfully all the time regardless of the fact that it has a hitbox. I've never seen it hit anyone mid-air in an edgeguard situation and Zelda players rarely teleport onto the stage because they know they'll get punished.

 

[Man Li Gi]

May lord Shaya please eradicate and drown these arguments. I've seen and heard enough of this whole Doc stuff. We know he's an exclusive, situational, niche use of a character.

Now, can we progress or are we content beating the horse?

 

[A2ZOMG]

When does that actually come into play when recovering though? I see people go offstage to contest her recovery all the time regardless of the fact that it has a hitbox. I've never seen it hit anyone mid-air in an edgeguard situation and Zelda players rarely teleport onto the stage because they know they'll get punished.

Teleport horizontally to the ledge, delay sweetspot, that's SUPER safe.

 

[Radical Larry]

Man Li Gi
I'll try starting a new conversation with...hm...

?

Does anyone just want to talk about Samus for a bit?

 

[Y2Kay]

Okay guys, can we talk about WFT next? I thought after her grab was buffed/fixed she would move up some, but she hasn't.
No more Doc pls.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Samus is really, really bad.

The end.

 

[Blobface]

WFT got a pretty big buff to deep breathing. 10% damage boost, which translates to more knockback as well, on what was already one of her most powerful tools. Just putting it out there.

In fact, the deep breathing buff was the main reason I excluded WFT from my list of "100% non-viable characters". It's a really big change that is hard to fully grasp the implications of.

As for Samus, I've said this before but her hitbox:hurtbox placement is garbage. I consider H:H placement just as valuable as frame data, and I think people really undersell it sometimes. Samus is the poster child for just how bad H:H placement can screw a character.

I mean, Sheik probably has the most favorable H:H in the entire game, so I just want you to imagine Sheik with Samus-tier H:H.

 

[Radical Larry]

Samus is really, really bad.

The end.

(Good one)

Not necessarily. I've been playing Samus for a bit and outside her laggy moves and most of her moves not being kill moves, she does have good setups, a decent projectile game and I find her fun to use with her U-Air capabilities. It's not a bad attack, and Samus can link into it again after using one.

 

[LancerStaff]

Eh, I'll bite. Anybody know if Melee Charge Shot is even usable now?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Why would you ever sacrifice one of Samus' best projectiles for a weak attack that is overall worse than the default?

 

[|RK|]

We rarely discuss Link since his infinite jab was removed - anyone wanna talk about how he fares in 1.1.2?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why would you ever sacrifice one of Samus' best projectiles for a weak attack that is overall worse than the default?

Advantages to Melee charge shot:
Kills earlier
Safer because of recoil
Not a projectile and thus can't be reflected or trolled by things that block projectiles

It's an okay move, actually can be justified against Villager and Olimar if you ask me. Mostly outclassed for sure given default is a pretty top tier move.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Can we talk about mega man? Busting into the top 8 at mlg.

Everyone who mains him (including me) think he is quite under rated and now with some Tourny results I think we should talk about it.

 

[Blobface]

Actually, were any other customs put into usability by the last patch? A lot of them were changed.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I really hate the stigma around Samus.
" Oh look, X move is disfunctional in Y way! That means she's obviously a terrible character! "
These kind of people irritates me, not taking into account the full kit of a character, and dissing on the character because there's a noticeable problem with a move. It is true that, for example, the priority of missiles in this game are quite laughable, but still, you've got to look outside of that & see what Samus has to offer, her pros & cons.
Sadly, i can't say much else, i really don't want to go further because i'd probably say dumb **** because i don't use Samus except in friendlies from time to time. I've seen a few matches of good Samus players, and she didn't seem all that bad.

However, i'd be interested to see some discussion about Samus' niche in the current metagame: With Luigi being nerfed & becoming an even less significant character in tournament ( Not to say he's bad ) , Samus got one of her niche matchups become less significant, so what kind of character could Samus fight decently against & justify use as a secondary?

 

[Trifroze]

I think this is the part I agree with the most. As for the other points:
- I wouldn't say it means nothing for the character at all. This was a really crucial set that Nairo used him for. I don't think this massively makes him super solo viable at all but I think it reinforces Doc as a very solid secondary character, used against a VERY strong player. I repeat, not an idea of solo viability but rather the idea that he's a workable secondary perhaps, or at the very least it will shed light on the character (it already has, check this thread). I wouldn't have thought this if he switched off of Doc vs. Pika, but he used Doc the WHOLE WAY vs. Esam despite Mario very clearly being an option. There has to be a reason beyond "nothing", especially because it worked.
- I think while Ganon and Falcon is an interesting comparison, I don't think Doc's mobility losses are nearly as severe or as crippling, personally. I'm sure you wouldn't insinuate this though, it's just an example. I also don't think he loses half as much followups as Ganon vs. Falcon esp. not if you watch the setplay between Nairo and Esam. I think the IDEA behind this example is good but Ganon and Falcon are much more extreme and not entirely applicable here based on my experience with Dr. Mario.

Semantics and whatever aside, I don't think the character is magically viable but you can't deny that he was considered a lot worse than he actually was by a good few people.

By "making ourselves aware of the details" I meant that Nairo was practicing this exact matchup versus Nakat for a considerable amount of time according to the commentators, while I doubt, although not claim, that Esam has hardly any Doc experience from a player anywhere near Nairo's level. Did matchup experience vs matchup inexperience play a considerable part? Very likely. Luigi is/was also seen as a tough matchup for Pikachu and Doc has some similarities so it's not impossible that this is just a difficult matchup for Pikachu, a character who I don't think will ever be super relevant because I don't see him being top tier. Would this good matchup mean anything for Doc's overall viability? Slightly but not much. If we see Doc tearing it up by different players like Ike is doing right now then we have a case in my opinion, but not just because the best/2nd best player in the world wins a matchup with him that's likely advantageous while likely utilizing superior matchup knowledge.

Which part of "Tornado stall above their edgeguard" don't you understand?

It's not hard. And in most situations you can even fade back with Tornado to avoid edgeguards and still make it back safely.

Heavy horizontal hits like the ones you're imagining also are pretty rare outside of Ganon F-tilt. Assuming proper survival DI Doc has better options for drifting from high to low than all the characters I mentioned because not unlike someone with multiple jumps, you can wait out certain aggressive edgeguard attempts and force people to make very difficult reads of chasing both your jump and airdodge.

Also, Doc does BETTER against Falcon than Mario, fyi. Mario does not have a single button in his kit as good as Doc Tornado for forcing Falcon to play respectfully in neutral, and the fact Doc has a legitimate edgeguard game is a big deal against Falcon, whereas vs Mario Falcon typically isn't going to die for a long time if he plays super conservatively. Furthermore Mario actually risks more than Doc in neutral throwing out rising B-airs in neutral due to jumping higher, which is not ideal against Falcon who has strong whiff punish potential.

The part I bolded can be said about any character. Turns out if someone can't go deep and/or dies when they guess wrong just once offstage against virtually any character, we call it a bad recovery. Tornado can be baited and airdodges can be baited, so what happens when instead of you waiting out the opponent's edgeguard option they wait out your recovery options instead? Doc loses a stock, while a character with a decent recovery doesn't in nearly as many situations.

Regarding the matchup portion, why do you say "fyi" as if it's some sort of well-founded information everyone should know? If you're convinced that Doc has a better matchup versus Falcon than Mario does with the tiny amount of top level reference and input we have, there's probably nothing I can tell you that'd make you change your mind. If you think shorthop height is a safety factor to consider, which it is, you'd also think to consider aerial speed and the effect that has on your safety, not to mention pressure, when throwing out your aerials. The mere fact that Doc can realistically just die at <50% if you throw him offstage is also a massive factor which you graciously skipped.

 

[Radical Larry]

We rarely discuss Link since his infinite jab was removed - anyone wanna talk about how he fares in 1.1.2?

Well, Link's definitely still the most balanced character (if he still had his infinite jab tech, he'd possibly be 15th). He can manage quite a lot of MUs and win some MUs, but for the most part, he's a character that's evened out on the tier list. I can go to specifics, but A2ZOMG drained me.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Actually, were any other customs put into usability by the last patch? A lot of them were changed.

Even after the buffs, Clothesline Tornado is not worth at all for both Luigi & Doc. Between Luigi's amazing Default Tornado, and Doctor Mario's great default tornado AND Soaring Tornado, Clothesline Tornado just can't compete.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Why can't we talk about the 3rd party characters(doesn't matter which one)

 

[TTTTTsd]

By "making ourselves aware of the details" I meant that Nairo was practicing this exact matchup versus Nakat for a considerable amount of time according to the commentators, while I doubt, although not claim, that Esam has hardly any Doc experience from a player anywhere near Nairo's level. Did matchup experience vs matchup inexperience play a considerable part? Very likely. Luigi is/was also seen as a tough matchup for Pikachu and Doc has some similarities so it's not impossible that this is just a difficult matchup for Pikachu, a character who I don't think will ever be super relevant because I don't see him being top tier. Would this good matchup mean anything for Doc's overall viability? Slightly but not much. If we see Doc tearing it up by different players like Ike is doing right now then we have a case in my opinion, but not just because the best/2nd best player in the world wins a matchup with him that's likely advantageous while likely utilizing superior matchup knowledge.

Oh I won't argue there are a lot of factors as to why Nairo won, but I'd like to point out that I have stated that this likely won't affect Doc's solo viability overall at all. I've always stood behind him as a secondary/CP character. I think my big idea is I want to draw conclusions as to why Nairo went Doc instead of Mario, etc. OUTSIDE of MU inexperience. I want to explore that and figure it out, this is the first time we've ever seen tip-top level Doc play at all and I want to look at that and examine it in full, not jump to conclusions about his viability. I just wanna know: Why?

There's a lot of factors, I think this primarily is just going to spark interest in the character and likely better development, but I think it just reinforces the whole idea of a subsect of characters being "secondary." Kinda like how ESam will go Samus vs. Luigi in certain instances (I think he still does?)

Opportunities to look at stuff like this from underdeveloped characters don't just....happen a lot, so I want to make the best of this.

 

[meleebrawler]

Samus is really, really bad.

The end.

Why is it such a bad thing to discuss characters that aren't regularly winning tournaments or making splashes? Even if said character is only good in obscure circumstances as an example, I'd still like to know why that's the case.

I really hate the stigma around Samus.
" Oh look, X move is disfunctional in Y way! That means she's obviously a terrible character! "
These kind of people irritates me, not taking into account the full kit of a character, and dissing on the character because there's a noticeable problem with a move. It is true that, for example, the priority of missiles in this game are quite laughable, but still, you've got to look outside of that & see what Samus has to offer, her pros & cons.
Sadly, i can't say much else, i really don't want to go further because i'd probably say dumb **** because i don't use Samus except in friendlies from time to time. I've seen a few matches of good Samus players, and she didn't seem all that bad.

However, i'd be interested to see some discussion about Samus' niche in the current metagame: With Luigi being nerfed & becoming an even less significant character in tournament ( Not to say he's bad ) , Samus got one of her niche matchups become less significant, so what kind of character could Samus fight decently against & justify use as a secondary?

You have no idea how much dedicated Mewtwo players have to put up with with complaints of how "bad" his hitboxes are, when in fact most of them are quite good and any misconceptions are easily swept away with practice. Then there's people lamenting that they can't get guaranteed stuff from confusion (you can in the air... wut?) or dthrow (unless you plant opponents on a platform) as if they're dysfunctional moves, when really they're just meant to be used differently.

Actually, were any other customs put into usability by the last patch? A lot of them were changed.

I'd like to see if Bowser's Fire Shot does anything for him now.

And Megaman mains now have a reason to learn to USE BOMBS WISELY plus Ice Slasher being a more interesting proposition (even if Danger Wrap is still more useful overall).

 

[Dre89]

Yeah I don't see why we can't discuss 'bad' characters

This thread is silly because it's supposed to make us understand the meta, but instead it's just opinions that are purely reactive to results.

Tier lists are basically about which characters have high level mains, and matchups are just based on which high level player won the most recent set.

Zero could elevate any characters position on the list just by maining them for a couple of months. That's why results logic is stupid.

 

[Vyrnx]

Man Li Gi
I'll try starting a new conversation with...hm...

?

Does anyone just want to talk about Samus for a bit?

I really love to talk about Samus but unfortunately the culture of this thread doesn't allow it. We get this:

Samus is really, really bad.

The end.

You can make really great points and tell people things about the character they didn't know before, and then they will say "lol hitboxes" or "lol hurtboxes". Samus is the definition of niche and technical. Her gameplan warrants explanation, but it is really hard when people make generalizations like "her projectiles are bad", "she can't kill", "her recovery is bad".

There's an explanation for each of these but because of the character's stigma, any legitimate argument that has been proven in tournament play will be laughed at. It's the character that everyone thinks they know everything about because they have watched videos about her hitboxes, and everyone on Smashboards agrees with them because they have watched the same videos/don't have experience with Samus, and then people feel like they are being clever and smart. They do it to get likes and because people rarely disagree with them.

We've tried Samus discussion before, but it has never done anything or gone anywhere. Always the same roadblocks.

 

[IsmaR]

Spoiler: For those unaware of the changes:

MCS' buffs are ridiculous, speaking in terms of customs. It went from being niche use in a handful of match-ups (primarily hitting through damage sponges like Luma and Pikmin) to making it a near preferential decision which CS you end up choosing (range/speed vs inability to be reflected/absorbed and earlier KOs), much like default vs Relentless Missiles. MCS takes less time to charge, and the serious kickback also serves niche use in that you can use a reversed shot to push yourself back toward the stage even after you've exhausted your double jump. The killing drawback is that if it whiffs/gets power shielded, you'll be eating a potentially bigger punish for it.

Default is still more useful for covering options such as rolls/killing off stage and at a range better, but due to being a projectile, it can be canceled out/clanks with damn near everything. It's faster than Mewtwo's, and marginally stronger than Wii Fit's Sun Salutation/Lucario with low rage/aura, but all of those mitigate long charge times by being able to be charged in the air. That charge time really matters in matches against rushdown characters that won't give you any room to breathe.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yeah I don't see why we can't discuss 'bad' characters

This thread is silly because it's supposed to make us understand the meta, but instead it's just opinions that are purely reactive to results.

Tier lists are basically about which characters have high level mains, and matchups are just based on which high level player won the most recent set.

Zero could elevate any characters position on the list just by maining them for a couple of months. That's why results logic is stupid.

Results, at the end of day,do matter in terms of tier placements. However, I do agree that people constantly shutting down arguments for lesser used characters by saying "oh well you don't have a top 8 at a national so Toon Link, Greninja, and Charizad can't be that good" is annoying. But here in the threads we'll usually hear you out tho.

 

[TurboLink]

Samus's recovery is no where near bad. She has down special for stalling, changing her hurtboxes, and gaining an extra jump, she's floaty, she has a tether grab, and I think she even has a wall jump.

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus's recovery is no where near bad. She has down special for stalling and changing her hurtboxes, she's floaty, she has a tether grab, and I think she even has a wall jump.

Of course. When I said that it wasn't me saying that, it was a reference to the countless posts on this website claiming that. Her recovery is completely fine. Her up b also has invincibility frames that are pretty easy to time well.

 

[Y2Kay]

I really love to talk about Samus but unfortunately the culture of this thread doesn't allow it. We get this:


You can make really great points and tell people things about the character they didn't know before, and then they will say "lol hitboxes" or "lol hurtboxes". Samus is the definition of niche and technical. Her gameplan warrants explanation, but it is really hard when people make generalizations like "her projectiles are bad", "she can't kill", "her recovery is bad".

There's an explanation for each of these but because of the character's stigma, any legitimate argument that has been proven in tournament play will be laughed at. It's the character that everyone thinks they know everything about because they have watched videos about her hitboxes, and everyone on Smashboards agrees with them because they have watched the same videos/don't have experience with Samus, and then people feel like they are being clever and smart. They do it to get likes and because people rarely disagree with them.

We've tried Samus discussion before, but it has never done anything or gone anywhere. Always the same roadblocks.

Now I'm really intrigued. Could you at least PM me your argument, because I really want to hear a Samus main's opinon. I'm fin with admitting I know little about Samus in competitive play, so I'm open ears!

 

[A2ZOMG]

I really love to talk about Samus but unfortunately the culture of this thread doesn't allow it. We get this:


You can make really great points and tell people things about the character they didn't know before, and then they will say "lol hitboxes" or "lol hurtboxes". Samus is the definition of niche and technical. Her gameplan warrants explanation, but it is really hard when people make generalizations like "her projectiles are bad", "she can't kill", "her recovery is bad".

There's an explanation for each of these but because of the character's stigma, any legitimate argument that has been proven in tournament play will be laughed at. It's the character that everyone thinks they know everything about because they have watched videos about her hitboxes, and everyone on Smashboards agrees with them because they have watched the same videos/don't have experience with Samus, and then people feel like they are being clever and smart. They do it to get likes and because people rarely disagree with them.

We've tried Samus discussion before, but it has never done anything or gone anywhere. Always the same roadblocks.

This bolded point is precisely why people ragging on Doc's recovery is annoying.

I'm not exactly great at this game, and I have horrible reaction time. One thing that doesn't happen to me in tournament as Doc is getting gimped. And this is against power ranked players in SoCal.

Yeah I had to learn a lot of ins and outs to get to that point, but that just applies to playing any character at a competitive level to be frank.

People like myself and @2ManyCooks can prove in tournament that Doc's recovery doesn't hold him back to any significant extent competitively and yet people still insist that Doc's recovery is "bad", frankly, and make up the same disproven bad arguments every single time.

 

[Dre89]

Results, at the end of day,do matter in terms of tier placements. However, I do agree that people constantly shutting down arguments for lesser used characters is annoying. But here in the threads we'll usually hear you out tho.

Results are bad to go off because they reflect the ability of the player more than the character.

They would only reflect character ability accurately if every character had a Zero-level player.

A ZSS won Brawl Apex in 2013. For five years that character was not considered solo-viable, yet nothing in the game changed.

Zero could honestly make people think Bowser was like top 15 if he played him for a couple of months. Just the insane reaction time and power shielding ability he has would let him get downb kills at stupidly low percents. Bowser isn't top 15, but Zero could make people think that.

I mean, he used to body M2K's Sheik with DK in friendlies without really investing time into him. DK is considered mid-low high at th moment but Zero would have people screaming for nerfs if he mained him lol.

 

[meleebrawler]

Spoiler: For those unaware of the changes:

MCS' buffs are ridiculous, speaking in terms of customs. It went from being niche use in a handful of match-ups (primarily hitting through damage sponges like Luma and Pikmin) to making it a near preferential decision which CS you end up choosing (range/speed vs inability to be reflected/absorbed and earlier KOs), much like default vs Relentless Missiles. MCS takes less time to charge, and the serious kickback also serves niche use in that you can use a reversed shot to push yourself back toward the stage even after you've exhausted your double jump. The killing drawback is that if it whiffs/gets power shielded, you'll be eating a potentially bigger punish for it.

Default is still more useful for covering options such as rolls/killing off stage and at a range better, but due to being a projectile, it can be canceled out/clanks with damn near everything. It's faster than Mewtwo's, and marginally stronger than Wii Fit's Sun Salutation/Lucario with low rage/aura, but all of those mitigate long charge times by being able to be charged in the air. That charge time really matters in matches against rushdown characters that won't give you any room to breathe.

I'd imagine in the Fox matchup in particular it's a tossup between Melee Charge Shot's charging speed and inability to be reflected or Dense Charge Shot to make recovery hell for him. Heck, I think Samus could make a lot of recoveries miserable with a gigantic, slow moving energy ball of DEATH. It's just the loss of usefulness in neutral plus longer charge time that keeps it from being used more.

 

[TurboLink]

I mean, he used to body M2K's Sheik with DK in friendlies without really investing time into him. DK is considered mid-low high at th moment but Zero would have people screaming for nerds if he mained him lol.

Do you have any links to videos of that? I've also heard rumors about him beating Sheik players with Bowser before as well.

 

[Vipermoon]

May lord Shaya please eradicate and drown these arguments. I've seen and heard enough of this whole Doc stuff. We know he's an exclusive, situational, niche use of a character.

Now, can we progress or are we content beating the horse?

I actually haven't heard from Shaya in like a week.

By "making ourselves aware of the details" I meant that Nairo was practicing this exact matchup versus Nakat for a considerable amount of time according to the commentators, while I doubt, although not claim, that Esam has hardly any Doc experience from a player anywhere near Nairo's level. Did matchup experience vs matchup inexperience play a considerable part? Very likely. Luigi is/was also seen as a tough matchup for Pikachu and Doc has some similarities so it's not impossible that this is just a difficult matchup for Pikachu, a character who I don't think will ever be super relevant because I don't see him being top tier. Would this good matchup mean anything for Doc's overall viability? Slightly but not much. If we see Doc tearing it up by different players like Ike is doing right now then we have a case in my opinion, but not just because the best/2nd best player in the world wins a matchup with him that's likely advantageous while likely utilizing superior matchup knowledge.



The part I bolded can be said about any character. Turns out if someone can't go deep and/or dies when they guess wrong just once offstage against virtually any character, we call it a bad recovery. Tornado can be baited and airdodges can be baited, so what happens when instead of you waiting out the opponent's edgeguard option they wait out your recovery options instead? Doc loses a stock, while a character with a decent recovery doesn't in nearly as many situations.

Regarding the matchup portion, why do you say "fyi" as if it's some sort of well-founded information everyone should know? If you're convinced that Doc has a better matchup versus Falcon than Mario does with the tiny amount of top level reference and input we have, there's probably nothing I can tell you that'd make you change your mind. If you think shorthop height is a safety factor to consider, which it is, you'd also think to consider aerial speed and the effect that has on your safety, not to mention pressure, when throwing out your aerials. The mere fact that Doc can realistically just die at <50% if you throw him offstage is also a massive factor which you graciously skipped.

@AlphaZealot How do you like a post more than once?

 

[Radical Larry]

I've been playing a bit of Samus myself and she isn't as bad as I initially thought.

Oh, and Falco is a beast. He has a U-Throw > U-Air Hoo-Hah, his U-Throw can also link into any of his aerials, and believe me, it's a beast of a time. Falco might not have a D-Throw that links up to much (other than probably his lasers), but his U-Throw is as other characters' D-Throws.

I might go on a limb and say that Falco seems like a pretty high tier character than what I think he is. (I literally picked him up and already am sweeping the floor with people.)

One more thing, ALWAYS try linking N-Air to D-Smash without having the final hit of N-Air activate. His N-Air autocancels, I believe, so it's safe to assume that because his D-Smash comes out so fast, his N-Air > D-Smash combo is rather effective.

I might make Falco a main of mine now.

 

[Dre89]

Do you have any links to videos of that? I've also heard rumors about him beating Sheik players with Bowser before as well.

There's a video on YouTube called 'more footage of M2K losing to DK' or something like that. I'm on my phone so I can't link it.

Remember too, the guy was bodying high-level Diddies as Falcon in the hoo ha era. And that MU was at least 60 40 Diddy's favour back then.

 

[meleebrawler]

I've been playing a bit of Samus myself and she isn't as bad as I initially thought.

Oh, and Falco is a beast. He has a U-Throw > U-Air Hoo-Hah, his U-Throw can also link into any of his aerials, and believe me, it's a beast of a time. Falco might not have a D-Throw that links up to much (other than probably his lasers), but his U-Throw is as other characters' D-Throws.

I might go on a limb and say that Falco seems like a pretty high tier character than what I think he is. (I literally picked him up and already am sweeping the floor with people.)

One more thing, ALWAYS try linking N-Air to D-Smash without having the final hit of N-Air activate. His N-Air autocancels, I believe, so it's safe to assume that because his D-Smash comes out so fast, his N-Air > D-Smash combo is rather effective.

I might make Falco a main of mine now.

I actually think Falco's uthrow is pretty similar to a lot of character's uthrows in the sense that it's use is "just get the opponent above me so I can juggle". Falco just happens to be able to ascend very high very quickly.