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...Who does tornado stalling even work on? Bowser? Anybody with a good disjoint will just beat out the tornado, and even if they can't, they'd just jump back to the ledge and refresh their jumps and jump back to deal with the double jump.
So where does Rosalina fit in this? Ain't no way she's in the stupid good category. So does that mean you think Rosalina's recovery is just as good as Doc's?
Recovery flowchart:
Yes, Rosa's recovery is about as effective as Doc's. She has enough distance and air control to mix up her landing position, though she can be punished hard on a read sometimes.
Are there projectiles good for gimping that deal about 9% or more? IIRC that was how much more damage a projectile has to do to directly outprioritize an aerial hitbox since Doc Nado pretty effectively blocks him.
By the time Doc has to use his up-b, he's almost always in a situation where anyone else will suck offstage.
The only noticeable thing Doc has in this MU is Nado vs. Luma. That's it. The rest of the MU is just sad. Rosa and ZSS are the two top tier MUs I think Doc does worst in, and why I think he's a better secondary than a main.
TL's recovery travels at a significantly slower speed that Docs, making it easier to hit him out of his recovery. Doc meanwhile, gets to the ledge almost instantly with his recovery.
I never claimed Olimar's recovery was great, just that it's better than Doc's. That video also shows Olimar using side b and disjointed aerials to cover himself, not to mention super armor on down b. It's very safe to say it's considerably better than Doc's, especially when distance is factored.
You clearly weren't watching MLG.
I thought you could just hit his head with a projectile, like a Mario fireball or something.
Well there's multiple facets to a recovery that determine how effective it is, and it goes beyond just the effectiveness of a character's up b.
For Tornado stalling? Usually far out is where I do it, it's generally decent reactively as opposed to pre-emptively. Like any mix-up it isn't flawless and it's by no means perfect but it's effective when used right just like any recovery stall in this game. I'm not gonna tell you it's phenomenal, don't worry, but I will say it does its job pretty well if you're smart about it.
Vipermoon
No, for some reason, Doc's U-Smash has surprisingly high hitstun on opponents. Testing it on the likes of Bowser, Falco and even Jigglypuff, I always see that it has a high amount of hitstun on opponents around the 0% to 50% mark, depending on weight, and it's not the transition into the spinning hurt animation, it's the animation that occurs similarly to Ryu's Hadouken hitting you in air. Test it our yourself if need be.
A2ZOMG
I'm sorry, but Doc's recovery is still one of the worst in the game by far, if not worse than Little Mac's. Alright, let me give you a rundown on Doc's vs Mac's recoveries. They both have bad recoveries with their Up Specials, but Little Mac has something that Doc doesn't have, and it's a crucial move, Slip Counter. Little Mac's Down B covers horizontal range, which is very great for him as it also allows him to hit the opponent. Little Mac also has the better air speed, too.
I'm not a Doc Main. Heck, I'm not even an advocate for his viability. But even I stopped reading after this sentence.
...You sure you're not using his Super Jump custom that travels way slower for some reason?
No, Mac is not better than Doc at recovering. In fact he and Ganondorf are probably the only two characters that, even if they have full access to all of their options, if knocked far away enough and at a sufficiently low angle will not make it back even without any interference from the opponent. Slip Counter ONLY works if the opponent hits it, and if they don't Mac is in even bigger trouble. It'll work maybe once or twice but no more. Dr. Tornado always works and provides just as good horizontal distance when properly mashed.
However, Mac nor Doc have good vertical recoveries, even if Doc has his Tornado move. The move can end at frame 75, which means after the final hit is done, Doc literally has 42 frames (almost an entire second) of stalling in the air and no horizontal movement, similar to how Toon Link's Up B works (no momentum at the end). Next, we got Doc's Up B, while having considerably more horizontal range than Mac's Up B, it's nowhere near the vertical range of it. Plus, if both characters were able to wall jump to recover, Little Mac would win with his higher wall jump.
So Doc loses the Doc vs Mac recovery battle in an ironic twist of fate.
Also, you're wrong about Ganondorf, Link and Toon Link. Ganondorf can at least latch onto opponents and has a chance to stage spike them if they miss that edge-guard; then we have customs Ganondorf, though that's a whole different story. Link and Toon Link have worse air speeds than Doc, yes, but their recoveries have superior horizontal and vertical distance and are not as easy to gimp as Doc's is; Toon Link can even fight back off the stage and still recover.
And let's not forget, Link and Toon Link both have higher jumps, bomb recoveries and projectiles to aid them into keeping their recoveries. Doc...has a tornado and an atrocious Up B recovery. Tell me how Doc's better than any of the characters in terms of recovery. Everyone else has some gimmick to allow them to recover very easily, whereas Doc needs his Tornado to recover. If Doc loses his tornado, he's pretty much done for.
Yeah Doc and Mario's Up+B moves are the same speed. There are some differences outside of the obvious. Doc's actually has an active hitbox for about 8 frames longer (the late hit) going by frame data. Speedwise and stuff they're the same. Maybe the Doc's you're playing are snapping poorly, perhaps? Always a possibility I guess.
Just has to be the lack of invincibility then (only found that out recently). Also Mario has more leeway to alter the timing of super jump punch thanks to his airspeed.
Radical Larry
Please don't (referring to the hitstun stuff)
Y2Kay
Trust me, Little Mac's recovery is better because of his Down B being a momentum pushing attack, allowing him to recover better horizontally if he connects with an opponent's attack. He has better air speed than Doc, a Side B that can actually give him some lift and movement, and an Up B with---although worse horizontal range---better vertical range than Doc's (unless Doc doesn't reverse his Up B and actually makes himself propel high by holding back, which removes almost any horizontal distance).
meleebrawler
Dark Dive's recovery from the grab can leave Ganon open in doubles, but he'll be way too high for most opponents to properly punish. And remember, the opponents have hitstun after he grabs them and hits them, which isn't necessarily allowing opponents to punish. Also, to put icing on the cake, if the opponent's grabbed under the ledge of the stage, they're going to get stage spiked no matter how little the KB is.
Vipermoon
I knew I forgot something, but you're wrong (like how I was initially wrong). Doc has 35 frames, not 25 frames to be hit by the opponent. And yes, I know my facts about Doc vs Mac, seeing as I do play both of them myself (and have tested their recoveries). Doc just gets hits, whereas Mac has something to actually defend himself with against the disjointed hits (and knowing that all counters upon hit are invincible once activated further goes to show that Mac might have the better recovery).
But What if people just don't hit the counter? Even some FG scrubs don't edgeguard and just let him die, or just hit him with projectiles. If we don't hit the counter then Mac falss to his death / or put in a really bad spot.
meleebrawler
already adressed this in an earlier post bruh.
Thanks Larry, I counted wrong. 35 makes more sense (because I was like "25? That's not that bad" but posted it anyway).
And remember that Doc's Tornado move ends on frame 75 (according to Kurogane Hammer), and the attack hitboxes end at 40 (the final hit), so that leaves Doc open to more punishment. If he's brought far enough and at a low angle, he doesn't even have a chance either, since he's more of an easy KO target than Ganondorf, who can STILL have a chance at recovery, if he simply grabs the opponent. Hell, he has the best edge snapping in the game if he wants to recover low.
No amount of button mashing will help Doc if he has 35 frames of where he's ultimately vulnerable. Say that he and Little Mac are sent in the same trajectory, same damage, everything, which the trajectory is probably the height of the upper platform on Battlefield. They are sent far away and the opponent wants to gimp them, but they both have their jumps and access to recovery moves and stuff like that.
If the opponent goes for the edge-guarding against them, Doc has absolutely NOTHING to allow him to keep from getting gimped; none of his aerials have sufficient range nor good endlag to help him out. Little Mac has Slip Counter, which actually allows him to punish even disjointed gimpers with proper timing. Although both still have bad recoveries nonetheless.
If Doc gets hit after using his mid-air jump offstage or if he gets hit by a move with heavily horizontal knockback, he literally doesn't have a chance to get back, while all of the above except for Mac and arguably Ness do. Mac is quite obviously the worst in this regard, while Ness is still nowhere near that because his mid-air jump combined with his fair is a real saving grace for him when recovering. Most characters you mentioned also have a better chance of not being hit out of their second jump than Doc due to good hitboxes or disjoints on their aerials like Ness with his fair that I already mentioned, Falcon and Ganondorf with their uairs or Robin with anything. I have to say I really don't see how some of the characters you listed would belong there, for example Link, Toon Link, Palutena, Shulk and DK. DK in particular, despite being prone to take hits offstage, will almost always make it back and often his mid-air jump and air mobility will be enough to do the job, it's just that his up b can be food for certain meteors, while for some other characters it can be a quick 32%.
Stage Control is an important aspect of this game. By going off-stage, you're effectively taking a risk that can backfire if you fail. By staying on stage, and deciding to keeping your opponent cornered, you choose to increase damage as well as potentially getting more opportunities to KO your opponent with reads.
I know, but I meant for my post to originally come before his.But What if people just don't hit the counter? Even some FG scrubs don't edgeguard and just let him die, or just hit him with projectiles. If we don't hit the counter then Mac falss to his death / or put in a really bad spot.
Eh, it's just a bit over half a second (technically, this would make the end lag worse than pre-patch Samus' F-Air landing lag). Hey, got time for some Smash games later?
Look, I can understand the fear of possibly continuing a Doc overhype train but the fact is we actually had an interesting discussion about recoveries and what makes them good or bad.See, this is the kind of Doc argument I did well to avoid.
Still not part of it (I'm actually not reading it) but more insight to add: http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Dr. Mario/
Hey look, you have 25 frames to hit Dr. Mario after his Tornado.........hmmmmmm.
I think this is the part I agree with the most. As for the other points:
Which part of "Tornado stall above their edgeguard" don't you understand?
In terms of raw, low total frames, it's Little Mac's Nair with 15 total frames, but it has 13 recovery frames since it comes out on frame 2 and only has 1 active frame. In contrast, Ryu's Nair, the most similar Nair to Little Mac's in animation and way of hitting, is frame 4-21, 18 active frames, and 32 total frames meaning it has 10 recovery frames. For infamous Uairs, Captain Falcon and ZSS both have 33 total frames for their 6-12 Uairs, so 7 active frames and 20 recovery frames. The major difference is that ZSS's always does 8% while Captain Falcon's is split between a clean frame 6-10 hit that does 11% or 10% and a late 11-12 that does 10% or 9%. Ganondorf also has a 33 total frame Uair (along with Falco), but his is frame 6-16, so 11 active frames and 16 recovery frames.
Bad recoveries don't really mean much if you never have to leave the stage involunatarily. Case in point: all versions of Falco, Melee Captain Falcon and onward - not sure about 64 Captain Falcon -, Ganondorf, Little Mac, (Dr.) Mario, Roy, Ike, and... might as well say the rest of the entire cast, but there are standouts like Melee Falco, Little Mac, and Dr. Mario who brute force their poor disadvantage and poor recovery.
A2ZOMG
And I'm being serious here. All the characters I listed have better air speed and recovery methods than Doc does. How would you ever think these 5 have worse recoveries than Doc does?
Most of what you're talking about doesn't matter. Good players do the following:Though I ponder how Bowser, Falcon, DK, Roy and Shulk have worse recoveries than Doc.
Bowser's literally a moderately floaty character with a decently horizontal and vertical recovery (emphasis on horizontal) with multiple hits, and he has better jumps and air speed than Doc.
Falcon's recovery is based on his great jumping height and aerial speed, too, as well as his ability to grab opponents in his recovery. He's got better air speed than Little Mac and a far superior jump. Combine that with Raptor Boost and Falcon Dive, and Falcon still has a pretty much better recovery than Doc.
DK's got no explanation, because he's like Falcon and Bowser; better air speed (being 8th-11th overall) and recovery tactics. I don't think sending DK at the same angle as Doc will hinder him from recovering because he has the holy horizontal reach in the game with his recovery. Vertically, not so much.
Shulk has better air speed than Doc and a far higher recovery. Oh, will you look at that, Shulk has Jump on. That makes his air speed even better and his recovery move height extraordinarily better than Doc's. The only way Shulk would be as bad as Doc in recovery, if not worse, is if Shulk suddenly uses Back Slash or puts on/has on Shield for some moronic reason.
And Roy? 3rd best air speed (according to Kuroganehammer), far superior horizontal recovery, far superior vertical recovery, need I say more? Oh, and he can F-Air any impromptu edgeguarder that isn't Ike or Link, so that's a plus.
But in the end, all you'd have to do is send these characters at a far lower height than Doc to actually kill them. Doc can die around 1 and a half Battlefield platforms. All these characters need to be well under Battlefield to actually die.
Palutena can do that too like what??????????????
Zelda has a hitbox on Up-B. Palutena does not. Huge huge huge difference. Means Zelda is considerably less vulnerable to ledge pressure.
