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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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TheReflexWonder

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What do you think of the Ganondorf vs Wario MU?
What you described sounds a lot like Ganon (except he probably does worse since he's a worse character than Ike).
Ganondorf does pretty well. The matchup plays out quite similarly, but Ganondorf has more freedom to safely poke at Wario on the ground and does gobs of damage, in exchange for not being as threatening with grabs (IMO) and being a little less reliable with his disadvantaged state. Easier to air camp Ganondorf, too, in my limited experience. Probably about the same, honestly; I could see Ganondorf going even or better.
 
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Mario766

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Me and San were talking about the MU before you and Ryo played. San stated that Ike wouldn't die to a Waft until about 60. Would you say this is about right?
 

TheReflexWonder

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Me and San were talking about the MU before you and Ryo played. San stated that Ike wouldn't die to a Waft until about 60. Would you say this is about right?
Heavily dependent on Rage. Full Waft deals 27%, and mostly-charged does anywhere between 20% and 29% depending on how close it is to full charge. Both have high BKB and KBG, to the point where 60% -after the hit- is not impossible with Rage at 100+% even on-stage, assuming you're at least near the edge. This is why the low-percent combo of falling U-Air -> both N-Air hits -> Waft (seen in my 0-to-death against False, as well as an older set against Fatality) is so potent.

Also, Ike is fairly susceptible to offstage Wafts, and when it's there it doesn't have to KO outright in order to finish the job.
 
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LancerStaff

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Doesn't seem likely. They knew what they were getting into when they made the change so they're not going to immediately renege on it any time.

And they wouldn't nerf individual characters because it was a universal change, but if they were they sure as heck wouldn't target Robin.
And... How do you know this? We had like three non-customs changes last patch... Seems more likely that they wanted to just see what happens instead. Even had a major glitch slip through.

These characters all have hitstun modifiers, and Robin has several multihit electric attacks. If Robin's deemed too good in FFAs then he's going to be nerfed regardless of what'll happen to his 1v1 status. Don't think they needed to nerf Shield Breaker into near uselessness for 1v1s but they did anyway...

Robin? Crazy? He's low high tier at best and you think what he got was crazy?
Don't be daft, I don't think he's great in 1v1s. I'm just saying that we've had plenty of nerfs that can only be explained as FFA adjustments with absolutely no return, and with the shield mechanics changes he seems like a likely candidate for a correction.
 

Mr. Johan

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If Robin's kit is nerfed due to shieldstun, then I also want Zamus's Nair, Pikachu's Fair and Quick Attack, and Ryu's everything to also run on an ammo count system. Robin gets a power nerf on top of his intended weakness, so let's gets the other supposed abusers on the same level.
 

A2ZOMG

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I'll have to try that sometime. I have a lot of problems with Fox, Sonic, Ness, and Mario, and I dabble in Dr. Mario for fun a lot.
Of those characters, from personal experience, I believe Doc has the advantage against Ness and Mario due to Doc's B-air spacing and U-smash outclassing their best options in neutral for the large part (and he can edgeguard both of these characters pretty consistently).

Don't have much experience vs Sonic, and I believe he and Mario both are disadvantaged to Fox if the Fox pressures their landing accurately. They win if the Fox isn't precise enough for that due to their grab games being noticeably superior though, but on paper they don't actually have a real way to get past Fox's U-air traps.
 
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LancerStaff

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If Robin's kit is nerfed due to shieldstun, then I also want Zamus's Nair, Pikachu's Fair and Quick Attack, and Ryu's everything to also run on an ammo count system. Robin gets a power nerf on top of his intended weakness, so let's gets the other supposed abusers on the same level.
I think we all want that anyway lol.

I was thinking they'd lower the hitstun modifiers though, or tweak the multihit moves. At least I'd hope they wouldn't just nerf the power...
 

Zelder

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There are more Docs in national top 8s in the past 6 months than there are Luigis.

Get it together, Luigi.
 
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Vipermoon

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I think we all want that anyway lol.

I was thinking they'd lower the hitstun modifiers though, or tweak the multihit moves. At least I'd hope they wouldn't just nerf the power...
What's a hitstun modifier?
 

A2ZOMG

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There are more Docs in national top 8s in the past 6 months than there are Luigis.

Get it together, Luigi.
Doc > Luigi honestly right now. The main thing Luigi had over Doc was easy KO confirms out of grab, but with that gone Doc's superior OOS and less floaty physics matter way more than that. They do kinda similar damage and kill at similar percents, but Doc has fewer fundamental blind spots (the lack of a good F-air is resolved largely by his U-smash frame buff).
 

Pazzo.

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I'd like a small Shield Breaker buff for Marth.

I mean, it's not as underpowered as commonly thought, but a stronger neutral special and some reworked hitboxes/f throw, Marth would be so much more enjoyable.
 

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What's a hitstun modifier?
Not completely sure, but hitstun modifiers should be the amount of hitstun somebody takes when hit. I would imagine it's damage times hitstun modifier and maybe the addition of some constant. Of course that's assuming that hitstun modifier is a thing. I'm not the most knowledgeable on these game mechanics.

Maybe I have my terminology messed up... The multiplier thing that makes Marth inherently safer on shield. Electricity adds an extra 0.5, remember?
I'm near certain that's a hitlag modifier.
 

Vipermoon

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P Planty My point was that a hitstun modifer doesn't exist. Hitstun rises with knockback. End of story.

Maybe I have my terminology messed up... The multiplier thing that makes Marth inherently safer on shield. Electricity adds an extra 0.5, remember?
That's the concept of hitlag. I was just making sure that's what you meant.
 

Jams.

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There are more Docs in national top 8s in the past 6 months than there are Luigis.

Get it together, Luigi.
I know this is a joke, but it's not true. Anti placed top 8 at Big House 5 using Luigi.

Tbh that's also not the only MU Doc is capable of doing well: I'd argue that the [...] and Rosalina matchup are all worth trying if you have a secondary Doc & struggles with one of those matchups, the usual lack of experience from your opponent may lead into Victory.
I don't see how Doc is good versus Rosalina. He suffers from the same issues Mario does (low range character versus a really good wall), except those issues are magnified by his worse mobility. His combination of fall speed and air mobility also makes him incredibly susceptible to Rosalina's juggles; he struggles even to ledge reset without taking a lot of damage. He does have some advantages in this matchup versus Mario, but I think that's outweighed significantly by his disadvantages, and Rosalina is already a tough matchup for Mario. Personally, I think this is one of Doc's toughest matchups. There is a PRed Doc in my region and he agrees with this.
 

Antonykun

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Finger slipped when writing a post disregard please
 
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Pazzo.

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Man I can finally say I was kinda right for once! Insofar as Doc being a great secondary and decent. It only took one year.
Your avatar is golden.

Anyway, I've been saying for months now that Doc wasn't trash... Especially after my brother started smashing heads with him.

Congrats on the big tournament representation.
 
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Planty

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If in some 20XX future, everyone is a master of taking advantage of the ledge vulnerability, who would be the best character? :4littlemac:? His main weakness is that he's decently easy to kill offstage, but in this 20XX world, everybody dies offstage. That means that he's a character with the best footsies by far, but his main weakness is shared among the entire roster. Sure he struggles to land, but all he would have to do is win neutral once with an F-tilt or super armored smash attack (which is easy for him) and then you're dead.

I'm probably gonna get a bunch of people telling me that Little Mac has a poor neutral game but...... thoughts?
 

MistressRemilia

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I know this is a joke, but it's not true. Anti placed top 8 at Big House 5 using Luigi.



I don't see how Doc is good versus Rosalina. He suffers from the same issues Mario does (low range character versus a really good wall), except those issues are magnified by his worse mobility. His combination of fall speed and air mobility also makes him incredibly susceptible to Rosalina's juggles; he struggles even to ledge reset without taking a lot of damage. He does have some advantages in this matchup versus Mario, but I think that's outweighed significantly by his disadvantages, and Rosalina is already a tough matchup for Mario. Personally, I think this is one of Doc's toughest matchups. There is a PRed Doc in my region and he agrees with this.
My reasoning being Rosalina vs Dr.Mario being at the very least a better matchup than Mario vs Rosalina is mainly because of Doc's extreme ease to take out Luma in this matchup. All the jank Rosa has at her disposal does work well vs Dr.Mario, which is why i still don't consider the matchup to be even in our favor, but i never felt like it was that bad due to how Doc should/will often make Rosa fight w/out Luma. We also gimp her decently as soon as she's forced to UpB.
Overall, i'd say Dr.Mario vs Rosalina isn't the best of the matchups you could find to beat Rosalina, but from my own experience as a Dr.Mario main, it is very do-able & worth trying in some specific cases ( The main one being a Mario Main trying to find a pocket character to make the Rosalina matchup less of a pain )
 

Quickhero

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Doc > Luigi honestly right now. The main thing Luigi had over Doc was easy KO confirms out of grab, but with that gone Doc's superior OOS and less floaty physics matter way more than that. They do kinda similar damage and kill at similar percents, but Doc has fewer fundamental blind spots (the lack of a good F-air is resolved largely by his U-smash frame buff).
I don't think we can say this for sure. Luigi could have new stuff to work with to compensate, but we haven't seen a Luigi ever since 1.1.0 because the changes take pretty damn long to adjust to. I wouldn't be surprised if Luigi bumps up to high tier after a few weeks/months, but I can say for now that if I saw someone get far in a major tournament anytime soon I'd be shocked as hell.
 

Vipermoon

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If in some 20XX future, everyone is a master of taking advantage of the ledge vulnerability, who would be the best character? :4littlemac:? His main weakness is that he's decently easy to kill offstage, but in this 20XX world, everybody dies offstage. That means that he's a character with the best footsies by far, but his main weakness is shared among the entire roster. Sure he struggles to land, but all he would have to do is win neutral once with an F-tilt or super armored smash attack (which is easy for him) and then you're dead.

I'm probably gonna get a bunch of people telling me that Little Mac has a poor neutral game but...... thoughts?
Then everyone will recover high. Can Little Mac recovery high? NOPE. Still the same predicament.

Edit: also there is no vulnerability if you grab ledge from the side or above (and your character can grab ledge from above even though he recovered low) so this won't really ever happen
 
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TTTTTsd

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Also TheReflexWonder TheReflexWonder Doc does fine vs. Fox, Ness, and Mario. Unsure about Sonic but if you dislike dealing with Fawkes, B-Throw, and Mario, Doc is pretty decent vs. them and fun to play. Those are the ones I'd recommend training for if you're using Doc as a secondary, they're where he performs best I think.

I guess Pika ain't too bad either but IDK if that was just Nairo being gahlike or not. Regardless if you hate dealing with any of those chars Doc is an interesting option that should work if you put the time in.
 
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the king of murder

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Everyone who says "I always knew Doc was viable" should have a quote older than yesterday floating around here to prove it. Don't want to accuse you guys of anything but the sudden influx of statements that they always knew Doc wasn't that bad is strange considering the reverse statement was very prevalent before Nairo showed us his moves. That said Nairo and 2manycooks and some other people have changed my opinion of Doc a bit.

I admit I was one of the ignorant ones thinking Doc wasn't good. When I look at his moveset, he has some great stuff. Up-b OoS, a frame 6 Bair with 14%(you know what Bair does 14%? Ike's god like one and while it has more range, it doesn't last as long), nado for edgeguarding and many more. His moveset is great but his inferior mobility still hinders him. Still I am more open to think he is a better character now.
 
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Vipermoon

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Bair does 13.44% and has adjusted knockback ensuring that it isn't that strong.

----------------------
Anyway, I am holding my tongue on Doc to not start an argument. I still have mostly the same opinion as him, and I have also noticed the influx of people saying that they've known he was decent/good. I think it's ridiculous to base it off this one performance with this one player against this one character/player. But I will say this: Nairo made/makes Zelda look good. He makes Lucina look good.

Don't quote this post expecting an argument on Doc. I was just offering insight.
 
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HeroMystic

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My reasoning being Rosalina vs Dr.Mario being at the very least a better matchup than Mario vs Rosalina is mainly because of Doc's extreme ease to take out Luma in this matchup. All the jank Rosa has at her disposal does work well vs Dr.Mario, which is why i still don't consider the matchup to be even in our favor, but i never felt like it was that bad due to how Doc should/will often make Rosa fight w/out Luma. We also gimp her decently as soon as she's forced to UpB.
Overall, i'd say Dr.Mario vs Rosalina isn't the best of the matchups you could find to beat Rosalina, but from my own experience as a Dr.Mario main, it is very do-able & worth trying in some specific cases ( The main one being a Mario Main trying to find a pocket character to make the Rosalina matchup less of a pain )
Mario takes out Luma more easily than Doc.

Doc's only real advantage in this MU is his reward on hit, but Rosalina has the advantage vs Mario due to stage control and superior vertical camping, both of which are stretched further if you're facing it as Doc.

Guys, it was one set. Stop over-hyping Doc.
 

Pazzo.

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I'm not saying Doc is top 10 or anything, but he's clearly not unusable trash like some have said.

That is all.
 

Radical Larry

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You guys should know that there are times where Doc can get a 50% damage confirm faster than Mario can off of only U-Smash; this is because of its low base knockback, good damage, amazing horizontal range and the ability to bring opponents behind Doc. Mario has to do various hits in a long string to get to 50%, but Doc only has to use one single attack string that works, and best thing about it is that Doc can still hit with attacks like U-Air or B-Air, depending on where the opponent is. It might have low base KB, but it also has high hitstun on opponents.

I'm not saying Doc is top 10 or anything, but he's clearly not unusable trash like some have said.

That is all.
This is the counterargument to the biggest of assumptions on characters; people jump to conclusions about characters until they're entered in tournament play. Beforehand, the people would think the character's bad. But if the character wins a set in a major around the top 16, people will reconsider the character's viability.

Sad but true story.
 

Antonykun

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Honestly, if you were to practice MUs for a tournament, would you have really learned Doc?

Not only that but it's clear that Nairo really knows his doc stuff on top of having a record of doing amazing with poor characters.
 

NairWizard

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Guys Nairo also beat Nietono's Sheik with Zelda in a set.

can we please stop using Nairo's performance against ESAM as indicative of anything?

ESAM didn't even exploit Doc's poor mobility as well as he could have (Pikachu's runaway game is strong).
 
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