Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Antonykun]

I'd still like to see that if you don't mind.

"I honestly think Sheik is a tad overrated, I mean I still think she is the best character in smash 4, but honestly sometimes i just hear people talk about her like she just effortlessly shuts down everyone who doesn't have a top level representative. You really can't look at her in a vacuum. I mean Zero has his win streak ( yes i did have this in my original post :/ ) but that's because he is in a level all on his own and he plays sheik because she rewards him for being so good. Point is most characters who are viable have a strong punish game on sheik not necessarily because guaranteed painful punishes tend to be desired in higher levels of play and because of sheik's physics tend to extend said punishes. further more her already intensely demanding playstyle is about staying as safe as possible as opposed to just cashing in a hard read on an instant stock. even if she "dominates" a character her opponent can always answer with a strong punish

tl:dr Sheik's good really good but she isn't perfect"

^
not i did not meant t post this
but now i look like a fraud

 

[Ghostbone]

For serious though, shield changes seem to have put the ZSS/Sheik matchup in ZSS's favour. Nairo cleaned out Mr. R and actually beat Zero in all 3 games he went Sheik.

 

[Blobface]

I think MLG really showed how much of an asset secondaries can be.

Nairo beats Esam, who he always lost to, with friggin Doc of all things. Guess he's a veterinarian now too; and while it's a bit more a matter of opinion, I think Esam did better with Samus the final game than he did with Pika the previous two.

Even if they know the matchup, the value of forcing your opponent to approach their game completely differently is huge. Case in point ZeRo switching to Diddy and starting to do better against Nairo.

 

[thehard]

Could Nairo have played more perfectly? I am so proud of him. He vanquished 3 of his demons this tournament, including THE demon. It's a new chapter. So much love for him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think MLG really showed how much of an asset secondaries can be.

Nairo beats Esam, who he always lost to, with friggin Doc of all things. Guess he's a veterinarian now too; and while it's a bit more a matter of opinion, I think Esam did better with Samus the final game than he did with Pika the previous two.

Even if they know the matchup, the value of forcing your opponent to approach their game completely differently is huge. Case in point ZeRo switching to Diddy and starting to do better against Nairo.

I think I may have been horribly misjudging of the Doc vs. Pika MU. Holy flib. What a good tournament this was for someone like me! (I'm still going in on Ryu tho lol)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I think I may have been horribly misjudging of the Doc vs. Pika MU. Holy flib. What a good tournament this was for someone like me! (I'm still going in on Ryu tho lol)

I'm sorry, but this needs to be said.
Your profile pic is the greatest thing ever to happen to this thread
That is all

 

[Wintropy]

ZSS is indisputably the second-best.

I don't think there was ever that much dissent towards that opinion, but I think it's de facto now.

Hell, maybe there's more to the meta than we know and she has untapped potential to surpass Sheik.

That grab confirm TWICE on Diddy was disgusting. ZSS has a bright future.

 

[TurboLink]

"I honestly think Sheik is a tad overrated, I mean I still think she is the best character in smash 4, but honestly sometimes i just hear people talk about her like she just effortlessly shuts down everyone who doesn't have a top level representative. You really can't look at her in a vacuum. I mean Zero has his win streak ( yes i did have this in my original post :/ ) but that's because he is in a level all on his own and he plays sheik because she rewards him for being so good. Point is most characters who are viable have a strong punish game on sheik not necessarily because guaranteed painful punishes tend to be desired in higher levels of play and because of sheik's physics tend to extend said punishes. further more her already intensely demanding playstyle is about staying as safe as possible as opposed to just cashing in a hard read on an instant stock. even if she "dominates" a character her opponent can always answer with a strong punish

tl:dr Sheik's good really good but she isn't perfect"

^
not i did not meant t post this
but now i look like a fraud

It's not that Sheik isn't perfect or near perfect, it's more like people/players aren't perfect.

It's like when I play against a Donkey Kong and I'm in the lead and then I make one little tiny mistake and eat a forward smash and he takes the game.

 

[Antonykun]

how about we all hold our horses and not use a single major to claim who is and who isn't top 2 after sheik?

 

[Nobie]

Dang, Nairo.

I think part of the switch to Diddy by Zero is just the fact that Diddy is straight-up heavier than Sheik. I think we all noticed how many Boost Kicks he survived.

Also, prior to this, we've seen so many people in this thread talk about how a whole slew of characters aren't meta-relevant, how they don't matter and why should we discuss them?

This is what happens when players explore all options, and don't limit to themselves what "should" work. Mario is a better character than Dr. Mario, we all know that, but after a while people get so attached to their reasoning (bad mobility! bad recovery!) that they don't see the bigger picture. Nairo did.

Nairo pulled out Doc to fight Pikachu.

Before that, Ginko pulled out Mewtwo to fight Villager (granted he lost).

Before that, ESAM pulled out Samus to fight Luigi.

RESOURCES.

 

[NairWizard]

Predicted that Nairo would win the tournament on Skype long before it happened.

imo, ZSS is better than Sheik after the patch.

Not just because of the hitlag mechanics that made ZSS' n-air and z-air safer, but shield being worse means tether grab(edit:ER)s are better (since shield is the common solution to tether grabbers).

Pika was also buffed massively though, so that MU may be a nice trump card against ZSS.

As for Pika vs. Doc, Mario is still Pika's hardest MU, and Doc has a lot of the things that Mario has, so it's no surprise that it was a tough matchup for ESAM. If you're a Pika main, pick up an anti-Mario character. Helps if he does well vs. MK and Ike too.

 

[Ghostbone]

how about we all hold our horses and not use a single major to claim who is and who isn't top 2 after sheik?

"Single major"
Not like Nairo has been dominating since forever, won a japanese national, and ZSS got buffed last patch as well (shield safety on nair and zair, and worse shields in general)

 

[wedl!!]

You also might need an anti-Peach character

 

[Wintropy]

I think Sheik is still the best due to her matchup spread, absolute safety, versatility with just about every opponent (except zss kekekekek) and the fact that she has some of the best players in the world repping her.

That said, I agree, she isn't perfect by any means. She isn't even oppressive in the way Brawl MK is or cheesy like pre-patch Diddy was, she's just a very well-designed, safe character. She's probably the closest thing to a "fair" top-tier we have right now.

Still reckon ZSS is going to either pass her out or get so close it's going to be a dual number one. Barring potential nerfs in the next patch and with a bit more meta development, ZSS is going to become the new fad.

how about we all hold our horses and not use a single major to claim who is and who isn't top 2 after sheik?

I don't think that's what we're doing, though.

I think it's been the dominant opinion that ZSS is second-best for some time now. This kind of performance just seals it.

ZeRo can't even claim he "had a bad day" or "wasn't feeling it" (not that he ever claimed this himself, but I've heard second-hand johns on his behalf): he was quite clearly playing at his best, Nairo just outdid him with the right choice of character.

 

[NairWizard]

You also might need an anti-Peach character

Peach is a personal mental block that ESAM suffers from and has suffered from in a previous smash game too. I really don't see it being a bad matchup for Pikachu at all.

 

[Y2Kay]

She's probably the closest thing to a "fair" top-tier we have right now.

I see what u did there......

 

[Rikkhan]

I said this a few pages ago, going solo is a very bad practice in general, I know is hard to have a strong secondary or pockets but the payoff is worth it. Instead of playing 1287438 games with your main which will give you little experience, spend time with other characters you will learn a lot more.

 

[Vipermoon]

Shoutouts to @TheReflexWonder, you did amazing.

 

[Antonykun]

It's not that Sheik isn't perfect or near perfect, it's more like people/players aren't perfect.

It's like when I play against a Donkey Kong and I'm in the lead and then I make one little tiny mistake and eat a forward smash and he takes the game.

that's what I mean sheik's desing leaves to many holes in player unpredictability, and if she slips up she often gets punished hard for it. (as we saw in MLG)

"Single major"
Not like Nairo has been dominating since forever, won a japanese national, and ZSS got buffed last patch as well (shield safety on nair and zair, and worse shields in general)

I mean if we're basing viability on what a single player can do then Villager is definitely top 5, blessed be Ranai.

 

[David Viran]

I think MLG really showed how much of an asset secondaries can be.

Nairo beats Esam, who he always lost to, with friggin Doc of all things. Guess he's a veterinarian now too; and while it's a bit more a matter of opinion, I think Esam did better with Samus the final game than he did with Pika the previous two.

Even if they know the matchup, the value of forcing your opponent to approach their game completely differently is huge. Case in point ZeRo switching to Diddy and starting to do better against Nairo.

Nairo only played Esam two sets before this tournament and both went to game 5. People say it like he gets destroyed whenever he faces Esam.

 

[Wintropy]

Shoutouts to @TheReflexWonder, you did amazing.

Yeah, thanks for reminding me of this. Very sad I nearly forgot to give the man his due.

@TheReflexWonder, that was incredible. That set with Ryo was the most exciting set I've ever seen in Smash 4 (excepting Nairo's win because of Nairo's win). I really hope that we get to see that degree of diversity and respect for underrepresented characters in future.

that's what I mean sheik's desing leaves to many holes in player unpredictability, and if she slips up she often gets punished hard for it. (as we saw in MLG)

I mean if we're basing viability on what a single player can do then Villager is definitely top 5, blessed be Ranai.

This is a fair point, but I don't think it's as simple as the ESAM / Ranai context. We have a few other ZSS's doing work in high to top level play (e.g. Nick Riddle and vaBengal), Nairo's performance isn't really an anomaly.

 

[Antonykun]

Yeah, thanks for reminding me of this. Very sad I nearly forgot to give the man his due.

@TheReflexWonder, that was incredible. That set with Ryo was the most exciting set I've ever seen in Smash 4 (excepting Nairo's win because of Nairo's win). I really hope that we get to see that degree of diversity and respect for underrepresented characters in future.

Oh yeah me too Grats on doing that well @TheReflexWonder

This is a fair point, but I don't think it's as simple as the ESAM / Ranai context. We have a few other ZSS's doing work in high to top level play (e.g. Nick Riddle and vaBengal), Nairo's performance isn't really an anomaly.

yes and no. Nick Riddle and vaBengal are both amazing but they pale compared to Nairo as fart as I can see (i'm probably blind somewhere tho) just like how people can easily say that without ESAM/Ranai Pikachu/Villager is high mid at best, without Nairo, ZSS would not be the second best character in smash, still top tier probably.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Can we just say nairo outplayed ZeRo and leave it at that? ZSS is not better, nor is the MU in her favor.

Needles still exist. Sheik's dominating neutral and disadvantage exist while have top 5 advantage. She's also well-rounded and handles situations better than ZSS due to not having a critical flaw.
Like, no. Nairo outplayed ZeRo. That basically was it (besides what's there in the match to study upon by mains of those characters and players in general).

 

[Wintropy]

yes and no. Nick Riddle and vaBengal are both amazing but they pale compared to Nairo as fart as I can see (i'm probably blind somewhere tho) just like how people can easily say that without ESAM/Ranai Pikachu/Villager is high mid at best, without Nairo, ZSS would not be the second best character in smash, still top tier probably.

Well, she wouldn't have top-tier results to back it up, that's fair to say. I think Nairo's performance pushes her meta further at an expedited pace and gets people to stop and consider just what she can do, but it isn't as though there's a dearth of good player repping her. The fact that she seems to have the options to deal with pretty much every other top-tier and beyond can't be overstated.

And I really doubt sensible folk would think Pikachu and Villager are high-mid at best. Don't be silly~ ;3

 

[Ghostbone]

Nairo does exist, and he does pick ZSS though.
He would only not pick ZSS if she wasn't a really good character, I really hate these hypotheticals about where we'd put a character without a certain player, since that player plays that character for a reason.

 

[Wintropy]

Oh yeah, loving Reflex's use of the Waft to deter his opponent rather than clutch the kill. Very creative performance, kind of a mind-game within the mind-game.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm stopping my who discussion on ZSS i feel as though my point was Flip Kicked spiked somewhere down the line
last piece of advice: don't let hype cloud your judgement of the metagame

And I really doubt sensible folk would think Pikachu and Villager are high-mid at best. Don't be silly~ ;3

Well I think she's high tier at best (hihg mid was a minor exaggeration), all relevant characters that aren't ness just do not give two licks about her camp game and most characters tat aren't ness or falcon aren't really that intimidated by her edgeguarding. so the relevant characters don't care or are immune to the two best things about villager :/

 

[Wintropy]

I'm stopping my who discussion on ZSS i feel as though my point was Flip Kicked spiked somewhere down the line
last piece of advice: don't let hype cloud your judgement of the metagame

That's okay. I think it's healthy to have a sobering opinion sometimes, ha ha~

Well I think she's high tier at best (hihg mid was a minor exaggeration), all relevant characters that aren't ness just do not give two licks about her camp game and most characters tat aren't ness or falcon aren't really that intimidated by her edgeguarding. so the relevant characters don't care or are immune to the two best things about villager :/

Oh, I get what you mean. I just wanted to nitpick~ ;3

High-tier at best is still very respectable. It isn't quite meta-relevant, but it's distinct enough that you can make waves with it. Take it from a Pit main, it's a good place to be. You get good results and people still love you 'cos you're not one of the "disgusting top-tiers", hee hee~

 

[Quickhero]

More characters are starting to get high up. This was the most diverse top 8/16 we have seen yet. Ike, Megaman, Fox, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Wario, ZSS, Dr. Mario, Mario, Diddy Kong, Sheik, and Sonic. Like holy crap, it's amazing just how viable all these characters are and how they're able to compete. I think it's also safe to say that Sheik is getting less dominant as the best character and may get dethroned as the king of Smash.


It's also interesting to note that ZeRo's name now fits his current win streak.

Spoiler

I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.

 

[Rikkhan]

I'm stopping my who discussion on ZSS i feel as though my point was Flip Kicked spiked somewhere down the line
last piece of advice: don't let hype cloud your judgement of the metagame

Well I think she's high tier at best (hihg mid was a minor exaggeration), all relevant characters that aren't ness just do not give two licks about her camp game and most characters tat aren't ness or falcon aren't really that intimidated by her edgeguarding. so the relevant characters don't care or are immune to the two best things about villager :/

What? villager can punish anyone recovering low even sheik, he is probably the easiest character to abuse the 2 frame vulnerability.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

This is ridiculous, you all are basing to many assumptions off of 1 national and sets, no is not better then , and no I seriously doubt beats , ZeRo has already shared his thoughts about the ZSS MU. Nairo just straight up out-played / read ZeRo in the games where he went BOTH and that is all there to it.There is differences between a MU being bad and getting out-played, ZSS has the tools in any MU in where if she gets the right read, she can gets massive reward; doesn't mean she beats every character because of it.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Why do I feel like Sakurai will nerf both Shiek and ZSS because of ZeRo and Nairo?

 

[ARGHETH]

Why do I feel like Sakurai will nerf both Shiek and ZSS because of ZeRo and Nairo?

He hasn't nerfed Shiek that much despite ZeRo dominating the scene for a while, so I really doubt this one tournament will change his mind.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

He hasn't nerfed Shiek that much despite ZeRo dominating the scene for a while, so I really doubt this one tournament will change his mind.

True, but there's alot of Shiek mains doing the same fair techniques alot, like the Hoo Haa thing. Diddy was nerfed alot, Shiek definitely doesn't need his treatment to(even thoughhe's still good)

 

[Djent]

It was interesting to see Nick Riddle taking ESAM to game 5, even when Nairo was scared to pick ZSS vs. Pika. I think that even that MU has room for growth (esp. on ZSS's side) though I still think the advantage will go to Pika in the end.

Peach is a personal mental block that ESAM suffers from and has suffered from in a previous smash game too. I really don't see it being a bad matchup for Pikachu at all.

FWIW a lot of Pikachu mains struggled against Peach in Brawl (to the point of picking secondaries) so I don't think it was just a mental block. But I also don't think Peach is as much as a problem for Pika now, and that's if she's even a problem at all. In fact, SlayerZ lost to the relatively-unknown Spyro a mere month before beating ESAM.

 

[Smog Frog]

any talk of patches like this pisses me off like no other thing can

they never will, the last one was on the 30th, patching is over, lets keep our head in the present, because talking about balance adjustments when the game is perfectly fine as it is makes me want to start forest fires, kill babies, decapitate puppies, and vote for trump.

to steer discussion AWAY FROM PATCHES and to relevant stuff that's actually here, discuss what the diversity in mlg's top 16
says about this games balance. i personally think having only 2 and 2 and tons of other characters(even saw relevant use!) says that even lower-mid tiers can make it big.

 

[Vyrnx]

any talk of patches like this pisses me off like no other thing can

they never will, the last one was on the 30th, patching is over, lets keep our head in the present, because talking about balance adjustments when the game is perfectly fine as it is makes me want to start forest fires, kill babies, decapitate puppies, and vote for trump.

to steer discussion AWAY FROM PATCHES and to relevant stuff that's actually here, discuss what the diversity in mlg's top 16
says about this games balance. i personally think having only 2 and 2 and tons of other characters(even saw relevant use!) says that even lower-mid tiers can make it big.

Maybe the next balance patch will allow lower-mid tiers to make it big.

Edit: The high tiers' metas have developed so fast and now mid tiers have to play catch up. But every tournament we see new characters who seem more viable than before. They're slowly catching up.

 

[Quickhero]

Maybe the next balance patch will allow lower-mid tiers to make it big.

Give it time man, no need for patches. If so many characters can make it to top 16, and have others like Ryu, MK, and DK show big success at previous tournaments, I'm sure other characters will be able to shine as well. I won't be surprised if next huge tournament we see a high level Lucario, Yoshi, or whatever character with some good ass properties shine. This game is starting to have a nice list of characters that are just very solid in tournament play, and I like the hell of what I am seeing and it's been happening since 1.1.0 so I don't think a new patch is necessary for these characters to shine.

 

[NairWizard]

It's interesting to note that besides Doc, all of the characters used in top 4 MLG have f4 jumpsquats. Really says a lot about how those minor frame differences on various motions aren't so minor as we sometimes like to think they are.

 

[TurboLink]

I won't be satisfied until every matchup is 50/50.

It's never ogre for me. :^)