Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

You're not wrong, but I'm not saying characters aren't *better* than others - that would be disingenuous. The primary difference between top tiers and the rest is that top tiers give you more return on the time you invest. You'll always have to work harder to compensate for the weaker characters.

My point is that in this game, lower-rated characters have to work harder, but not as hard as lower-rated characters in previous games. In the Fox/Jigglypuff matchup in Melee, Jigglypuff definitely has to work hard for the win - and that tells me that in this game, where matchups (as far as we know) rarely get that bad, it's certainly doable.

I don't think just any character can do well in a national... There's more characters that could now then in previous games, but I don't think anybody below like upper mid could without a top tier secondary. If they do end up doing well without top tier support, chances are that they were upper mid at least to begin with. Get what I'm saying?

 

[Superbat]

Ike and mega man in top 8 of smash 4 mlg.

 

[|RK|]

Yooo, if that Falcon Punch hit...

I don't think just any character can do well in a national... There's more characters that could now then in previous games, but I don't think anybody below like upper mid could without a top tier secondary. If they do end up doing well without top tier support, chances are that they were upper mid at least to begin with. Get what I'm saying?

I see what you're saying, and I not saying every character can do it. I'm saying the "against the odds" thing has been done many times before.

 

[Smog Frog]

wheres the stream?

 

[Wintropy]

Sociologically, it's fascinating that the crowd instinctively reacts the way they do whenever Falcon Punch / Warlock Punch / similarly "disrespectful" move is used. Interesting that the mere concept of the move generates that kind of shock and awe, irrespective of whether or not it hits.

The more I watch this, the more I think Falcon has no response to Sheik. The commentators mentioned that Falcon is a heavyweight and a heavy-hitter, but the fact that he has to commit the way he does means Sheik just has too many options to open him up. Kind of a different extreme of the Ganondorf / Doc effect, where the fast yet read-heavy character is beaten by the significantly faster, hyper-safe character.

 

[Blobface]

incidentally, what characters do you think are so irredeemably bad that they cant possibly place top 8?

Er, the following are likely candidates. I'd never say for absolute certain that a character is simply that bad.

In order of likelihood, assuming optimized, top level play, no customs:
Jigglypuff
Zelda
Shulk
Samus
Note: These four suffer from all-encompassing issues like crap move properties/hitbox placement (Zelda, Samus), an inherently bad Metagame environment (Shulk), or game mechanics that work against them (Jiggs). Zelda and Samus are pretty self-explanatory, their own moves work against them. Shulk inherently suffers in a meta dominated by rushdown characters. I wouldn't be surprised if Shulk would be a high/top tier in a sword-dominated meta. Jiggs is just screwed constantly by game mechanics on top of having a pretty sub-par moveset overall sans her aerials. Jiggs gets screwed by rage, gets screwed by the new edge mechanics, and gets screwed by larger blast zones.

There's some characters I thought might be this bad but I didn't feel confident enough in my knowledge to put them here.

Wow this list is... smaller than I was expecting. Before it seems like I'm sugarcoating the whole game bear in mind this is assuming someone is crazy enough to develop optimal play while constantly using a sub-optimal character. Realistically there's a lot more characters (in the current version) you won't see in top 8 nationals.

 

[Wintropy]

I will grit my teeth and confess that Palutena may be in that list. I think it's possible she could place in a national, but the extent to which you'd need to develop her goes above and beyond what mere mortals might be capable of. You can only jab -> grab -> f-air your way to a certain extent. Being slow and unsafe doesn't help.

Aaaand with that one bike kill, Reflex single-handedly drives the Wario meta forward.

 

[Nu~]

ScaTT is amazing. Truly the best mega man out there.

And right when mega man's viability was being questioned as well. But I can't help but wonder how much matchup inexperience he's riding on

 

[Ffamran]

Sociologically, it's fascinating that the crowd instinctively reacts the way they do whenever Falcon Punch / Warlock Punch / similarly "disrespectful" move is used. Interesting that the mere concept of the move generates that kind of shock and awe, irrespective of whether or not it hits.

The more I watch this, the more I think Falcon has no response to Sheik. The commentators mentioned that Falcon is a heavyweight and a heavy-hitter, but the fact that he has to commit the way he does means Sheik just has too many options to open him up. Kind of a different extreme of the Ganondorf / Doc effect, where the fast yet read-heavy character is beaten by the significantly faster, hyper-safe character.

I think it's because those moves are really telegraphed, so you kind of get this bullet time effect where when a person is getting hit, it feels like their life flashed before their eyes. For instance, people don't get hyped much when Melee and Brawl Falco lands a Dair, but in Smash 4, where it's much slower, when someone lands it, people get hyped because it's telegraphed, it has hit lag which creates a pause as if that move hit so hard, time has to stop to understand what happened, the amount of knockback caused by Dair right after hit lag makes it look even more amazing, and people just don't expect a move like that to connect because of how slow and butchered it is compared to Melee and Brawl Falco's broken Dairs.

They're suspenseful and that's what moves like Falcon Punch, slow spikes, and moves with hit lag like Marth's tippers or Ryu's everything. So, when a Falco lands a Bair, it's like, "Oh ****!", because it's so fast and the opponent usually instantly dies at higher percents, but when a Marth lands a tipper Side Smash, it's like, "Oh, did that..", this is where the hit lag happens and right when it launches, "OH ****! TIPPER SIDE SMASH!" A move like Falco's Bair is so instant that you do register it, but not in a way where you have to think about what just happened unlike a Marth tipper Side Smash, a Shoryuken, or a slower move like Ganondorf's Volcano Kick or Ike's Eruption. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are loaded with moves that build suspense or are fast and strong enough that people just don't register what happened. In contrast, characters like Sheik, Mario, and Fox don't really have much. It's just, "Mario killed with an Up Smash", "Fox Baired someone", and "Sheik things."

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, I picked up Falco again, and holy hell, he can just juggle with some good timing and his U-Air. And let me just say that his U-Air is a decent move to U-Throw to, aside from N-Air. But what I really love is that when you U-Throw an opponent at death percents, just barely grazing the opponent with U-Air (not to the point of a phantom hit) will cause them to be KO'd. His U-Air's just so good. It's always best to U-Air facing back from the opponent since you'll be able to hit the opponent quicker that way, and reach the opponent better.

(It's apparent I use too many characters as mains.)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Nairo is going Doc
Doc is getting tournament rep
This is not a drill
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/channel/smash

EDIT: He took a game off ESAM, used Dthrow Bair, and used the Dthrow Uair up B that I just mentioned XD

 

[Y2Kay]

This just in: Nairo lost

 

[TTTTTsd]

With Pika being one of the less good Doc MUs and Nairo doing that well....damn.

He didn't win but that was pretty close. Those were REALLY close games. Bottom 10 my ass LOL

 

[Emblem Lord]

He is bottom ten. But unlike say oh idk...Marvel vs Capcom 2 where bottom ten means you dont ****ing exist, in this game it just means you gotta be a much better player to do damage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

He is bottom ten. But unlike say oh idk...Marvel vs Capcom 2 where bottom ten means you dont ****ing exist, in this game it just means you gotta be a much better player to do damage.

Dunno man he wasn't even playing perfect Doc (he missed a few USmashes cause Doc's is stupid) and some Up+B OoS moments that probably could've stolen stocks because it's dirty.

I don't think Dr. Mario is some sort of fantastic character either but I don't think he's as bad as most people let on =V. I switched to Ryu and put Doc as a secondary for a reason.

I however do think Bottom 10 is underrating the character. Bottom 15-20 is probably more accurate but it's just numbers at this point. The character is and always will be super effective as a secondary/CPish sort of role, as demonstrated here.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think he should be right next to palutena in terms of rankings in my opinion. Should be right outside bottom 10

 

[Vipermoon]

Nairo did a lot of things wrong with Doc like all of his dash grab punishments in the first game (they shouldn't have been dash grabs) and a lot of other things. It was a dumb decision to stay as Doc all 4 games. I am not convinced that Doc is anything but a low tier.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

At this point its like Doc is like... good enough to use but still low tier.
Which says a lot about the balance of the game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Apparently Nairo thought Doc was a good CP for Pikachu. Maybe that IS a MU Doc does fine in as well? I guess that just leaves ZSS and RosaLuma as dumb MUs for him, then? I have no idea, Nairo watttt.

Realistically it doesn't prove a lot outside of the fact that Doc is competent in some top tier MUs but that's kinda important in its own right. Proof that he's not garbage is still proof I guess.

Guess I'd better go edit my Doc vs. the Top MUs list for future reference. Huh.

 

[Doctor_Link]

What's the best size for mii brawler? is it 0/0, like the gunner, or something else.


really, i just want discussion on miis in general, because there really hasn't been any since the custom mii argument.

 

[Vipermoon]

Nairo was apparently practicing a lot with Nakat's Pikachu with Doc. That's why he was stubborn with his character pick. Nairo has otherwise never been able to beat Esam so there's that too. Basically it looked like he was just trying to capitalize on Pikachu's killing problem, which he kind of did; but it wasn't nearly enough.

 

[Wintropy]

I think he should be right next to palutena in terms of rankings in my opinion. Should be right outside bottom 10

Depends, where do you think Palutena is?

For what it's worth, I think he's better than Palutena either way. He just has so many more viable options.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

You can say almost anyone is better than Palutena and not be wrong though

 

[Sir Tundra]

Looks like nairo is going doc again against esam in losers final.

And he won the first round apparently

 

[zeldasmash]

LOW TIER LOSERS FINALS!! We got Samus vs Doc!

 

[kaz99]

Nairo won 3-0, used Doc each game

 

[Vipermoon]

Much better Doc play from Nairo. Esam didn't look to be approaching the MUs correctly. I won't take back my comment on Doc being low tier.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Much better Doc play from Nairo. Esam didn't look to be approaching the MUs correctly. I won't take back my comment on Doc being low tier.

He's low tier but he has a good MU vs. Pika (so it seems. Based Nairo). I went and tested and it seems D-Throw > Fair is a true combo on Pika at relevant Kill %s.

That's a pretty cool niche.

 

[zeldasmash]

Nairo is one game away..........

 

[Sir Tundra]

Nairo is ahead 2-1.. could this be it?

Can nairo finally defeat zero in a grand finals set or will zero make a comeback

edit: no ****ing way

he did it

 

[TurboLink]

Nairo finally won!

 

[zeldasmash]

The streak.........has been..........BROKEN!!!!

 

[Pyr]

The floodgates to the ocean of hype just opened.

Wait was that really...

Spoiler

3 separate 2 stocks? Holy ****.

 

[Smog Frog]

IT HAPPENED
THE KING HAS LOST
THE KING IS NOW A PEASANT
COMPLETE ****ING SOCIAL UPHEAVAL
THIS IS REAL

 

[Gawain]

It had to happen one day.

 

[Antonykun]

you know I was about to make a post about how sheik might be a bid overrated but now Nairo broke ZeRo's streak so now I would look like a fraud :/

 

[TurboLink]

you know I was about to make a post about how sheik might be a bid overrated but now Nairo broke ZeRo's streak so now I would look like a fraud :/

I'd still like to see that if you don't mind.

 

[Trifroze]

ɪs ᴢᴇʀᴏ sᴜɪᴛ sᴀᴍᴜs 1sᴛ ʙᴇsᴛ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ?

 

[wedl!!]

[Analysis] Will Vanessa breakup with me?

Also the fact that people will still call Pika #2 is funny.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

[Analysis] Does Shiek actually suck?