Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

Next patch, if anything, will probably just nerf some of the crazy stuff the shieldstun changes. So ZSS, Pika, Robin, and Ryu seem likely to get some immediate nerfs... Marth might get nerfed, but nothing gigantic since his base hits didn't get any safer. Roy might just get buffed for similar reasons. Don't think Lucario's shield break thing will make it since I've already seen a few fraud Lucarios go for it on for Glory.

 

[Blobface]

@Smog Frog
There are buffs that I think should happen but I really don't think there's anything that needs to be nerfed at this point. Sheik's killing problems seem to get worse every tourney and every other top tier has exploitable flaws of their own. We will probably get one more patch with the DLC characters, though who knows if it'll be anything big.

 

[Ghostbone]

I won't be satisfied until every matchup is 50/50.

It's never ogre for me. :^)

Go play street fighter 1 if that's what you want.

 

[David Viran]

It was interesting to see Nick Riddle taking ESAM to game 5, even when Nairo was scared to pick ZSS vs. Pika. I think that even that MU has room for growth (esp. on ZSS's side) though I still think the advantage will go to Pika in the end.

FWIW a lot of Pikachu mains struggled against Peach in Brawl (to the point of picking secondaries) so I don't think it was just a mental block. But I also don't think Peach is as much as a problem for Pika now, and that's if she's even a problem at all. In fact, SlayerZ lost to the relatively-unknown Spyro a mere month before beating ESAM.

I don't think nairo is scared of the zss vs pika MU but by how much experience Esam has in it.

 

[TurboLink]

Go play street fighter 1 if that's what you want.

If Link was in it I then I probably would be playing it. xD

 

[Sir Tundra]

Ghostbone you know I'm pretty sure turbolink was just joking there.

However I would just like to add that there will never ever be a fighting game where every matchup is 50/50.

The only way there would be a game like that is either we have that only stars one character(*street fighter 1*) or have a game with only two characters that happen to have an even matchup with each other.

As long as there's multiple amount of characters there will always be matchups that are either in a character x favor or not in character x favor however. that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a game that's balanced.

Infact alot of modern fighting games today are balanced mostly due to the fact that balance is a huge focus for developer. Well except for anime fightng that **** is krey krey.

Sure in every fighting game there's always gonna be a character who's deemed the best but that doesn't automatically mean the game is unbalanced.

Also I don't ZSS is the best in smash 4. Yes Nairo kill zero's streak(which I'll admit was pretty hype) but that was because nairo outplayed zero at that grandfinals set. I mean I'm pretty sure 1 tournaments automatically gonna prove who's the best character.

That's like saying Peach became the best character in melee when armada beaten pp at apex 2013.

or zss became the best character in brawl when salem beaten m2k at apex 2013

 

[PK Gaming]

Next patch, if anything, will probably just nerf some of the crazy stuff the shieldstun changes. So ZSS, Pika, Robin, and Ryu seem likely to get some immediate nerfs... Marth might get nerfed, but nothing gigantic since his base hits didn't get any safer. Roy might just get buffed for similar reasons. Don't think Lucario's shield break thing will make it since I've already seen a few fraud Lucarios go for it on for Glory.

Doesn't seem likely. They knew what they were getting into when they made the change so they're not going to immediately renege on it any time.

And they wouldn't nerf individual characters because it was a universal change, but if they were they sure as heck wouldn't target Robin.

 

[Ghostbone]

The only way there would be a game like that is either we have that only stars one character(*street fighter 1*) or have a game with only two characters that happen to have an even matchup with each other.

Even this is impossible, if you had a whole game dedicated to one matchup (aside from dittos), people would still eventually figure which character won that matchup.
Like even dittos aren't always even (see port priority affecting Snake dittos in Brawl, ports even let one player chaingrab the other for longer in fox dittos in melee), two different characters can never have a perfectly even matchup, and the less characters you have the quicker each matchup is figured out, and the advantageous character identified. That's why lots of matchups are superficially considered close in Smash 4, there's far too many characters for the intricacies of those matchups to be identified, so people go around claiming their character goes even with everyone lol.

Also I don't ZSS is the best in smash 4. Yes Nairo kill zero's streak(which I'll admit was pretty hype) but that was because nairo outplayed zero at that grandfinals set. I mean I'm pretty sure 1 tournaments automatically gonna prove who's the best character.

Did anyone say ZSS is the best? I said she might be advantaged against Sheik, that doesn't make her the best.

 

[Tri Knight]

If Link was in it I then I probably would be playing it. xD

Except he'd probably be crap even in that game. Devs don't likes us...

 

[Sir Tundra]

Did anyone say ZSS is the best? I said she might be advantaged against Sheik, that doesn't make her the best.

Hey man some people were saying that sheik might be number 2 a few pages back or maybe I might be reading things wrong.

edit:

@Smog Frog
There are buffs that I think should happen but I really don't think there's anything that needs to be nerfed at this point. Sheik's killing problems seem to get worse every tourney and every other top tier has exploitable flaws of their own. We will probably get one more patch with the DLC characters, though who knows if it'll be anything big.

Isn't the dlc characters going to be ballot winners in that case we'll probably get more then one more patch with the dlc characters with balance patches of course.

However regarding that I don't think this game really needs balance patches. I think it's good the way it is.

Speaking of.. I know this might be out of topic but man how long is it even going to take to announce the winners already? I don't want to wait till spring of 2016 just to get the results.

 

[thehard]

I don't want to get placebo all over this thread, but I do feel like I saw a lot more safe-on-shield aerials this tournament than others. Could be the general air speed/range of the characters we saw late-tournament too. Mega Man, Mario, Wario, Pika, Ike, ZSS. The latter seems like the biggest winner of 1.1.1 (and I feel like Sonic hasn't benefited much at all?) Nairo M&M-ified ZeRo's shield more than once, scary stuff.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The talk about Zamus being the best stemmed from a couple of high profile Japanese players claiming as much about a week ago.

Nairo's victory over Zero today can be seen as substantive towards that claim. Not outright confirmatory, but enough to be used as evidence for that argument. Moreso with three two-stocks coming out of the victory. Even moreso with one of those two-stocks involving a zero-death in less than 20 seconds.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Reflex is the first Wario to hit top 8 at a tournament like this (I don't count Abadango since he only used him as a counterpick on top of the myriad of other characters he has)

Major props. Showing what this character can really do and that he might not be as inconsistent as we thought, and there's room for improvement as well.

 

[ARGHETH]

So ZSS, Pika, Robin, and Ryu seem likely to get some immediate nerfs

Robin? Crazy? He's low high tier at best and you think what he got was crazy?

 

[Browny]

shield being worse means tether grabs are better (since shield is the common solution to tether grabbers).

What am I even reading.

 

[NairWizard]

What am I even reading.

Typo, my bad.

Should have been tether grabbERS
rather than tether grabs

rephrased:
characters with tether grabs are better in a metagame where shields are worse, since they have to deal with shields less often

 

[Trifroze]

I think an important thing to acknowledge with ZSS is that when everything goes right for you and you land the grabs, read the DI and the up b keeps fully connecting, ZSS is S tier noticeably beyond Sheik (who I don't think isn't in a tier of her own). If your grabs whiff, get punished and you can't get anything big started, she's somewhere around lower top 8 or so. She doesn't need her cheese to be good but when it all works she looks really overpowering, overall though she ends up being 2nd some distance behind Sheik. Landing those grabs is not as easy as Nairo made it look, just see the amount of reads and amazing pressure he applied to get them a lot of the time. He basically showcased us what ZSS would look like if she had the reliability of a normal grab. I was also glad to see down smash utilized so well after the nerf to it.

ZSS is a great character on any level but I think she benefits from player skill more than most if not all top tiers due to the sheer amount of situational awareness you need to maximize your punishes, as well as due to the mixups and pressure needed to land those grabs. No other top tier risks (or gets rewarded) nearly as much going for grabs, and no other character has such options for big punishes in so many situations. Her strengths lie in that so if you miss them you're playing that lower top 8 ZSS I spoke of earlier.

 

[bc1910]

You don't need reads once they're grabbed. The consistency which Nairo is able to get the cheese is extremely high because you can react to their DI mid-combo.

Her punishes are only going to get more consistent and it's something we all need to learn to play around/against.

Not convinced she'll ever be better than Sheik though, not by a long shot. This was two sets, and included a lot of Diddy.

 

[Trifroze]

You don't need reads once they're grabbed. The consistency which Nairo is able to get the cheese is extremely high because you can react to their DI mid-combo.

There were a few times when he had to resort to a forward air or back air at the percent range where uairs would lead into up b. You can certainly react to the DI at high percents because the opponent's launch trail is so long and clear right after down throw, but at low percents it's really hard and I've never seen anyone track it as consistently as Nairo did. Maybe he has learned to notice some very subtle differences about it and there might be something to it.

 

[wedl!!]

Honestly this is more indicative of ZSS potentially beating Sheik and Nairo being amazing than Sheik not being #1.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Robin? Crazy? He's low high tier at best and you think what he got was crazy?

Robin's really uneven right now. The lack of mobility and bad recovery are huge weaknesses, but the levels of shieldstun Robin has are pretty crazy and problematic for some of the slower characters. Definitely not a major priority balancewise though, as Robin's a middling character as opposed to a dominant one.

 

[Steelballray]

Waiting for the "ZSS pls nerf" posts
and the counter argument by ZSS players which is going to turn into "learn to play around her she aint OP"

And I have one little thing to remind you of: LUIGI.

 

[TTTTTsd]

All I think she needs is like, less Boost Kick cheese. I think as a character she's 100% fine for the most part, anyone asking for real significant nerfs on ZSS of all characters is like, insane, personally.

Good characters will be good. I'd like to keep it this way.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Seeing the results made me smile a good deal, especially seeing Mega Man, a normally ignored mid-tier character, get in Top 8 in 7th place. I'm also happy that ZeRo's streak is finally over. That's not to say I hated ZeRo, because I respected his high level skill, but eventually, you just want to see someone else win. ScAtt's placement must make Megs slightly more tournament viable, right?

 

[DunnoBro]

All I think she needs is like, less Boost Kick cheese. I think as a character she's 100% fine for the most part, anyone asking for real significant nerfs on ZSS of all characters is like, insane, personally.

Good characters will be good. I'd like to keep it this way.

Boost kick isn't really the issue, it's the fact uair safely covers ALL options in a scenario the opponent has to deal with death and creates these unavoidable death scenarios (Jumping away can get you killed by uair raw too)

Flip kick is also pretty absurd with the fact there's no reason not to use it to return to neutral vs a loooot of characters. Only characters that can reliably punish it like sheik due to needles and diddy due to banana.

 

[Radical Larry]

Boost kick isn't really the issue, it's the fact uair safely covers ALL options in a scenario the opponent has to deal with death and creates these unavoidable death scenarios (Jumping away can get you killed by uair raw too)

Flip kick is also pretty absurd with the fact there's no reason not to use it to return to neutral vs a loooot of characters. Only characters that can reliably punish it like sheik due to needles and diddy due to banana.

On the first thing, if ZSS tries to string with U-Air against a Wizard's Foot mix up, Wizard's Foot will more than likely win for Ganondorf because the attack connects with ZSS. Ganondorf has an option to deal with ZSS's U-Air, and it's pretty effective at damages like 40%, as it will be an instant KO if the meteor hitbox doesn't connect.

On the second thing, there are tons of characters who can punish Flip Jump, like characters who can reach it with their U-Airs, characters who time their projectiles right (and are very close unless you're Link or Tink), characters who time their attacks correctly, Ganondorf with U-Smash (if ZSS is within kicking range) and more. There's more than just Diddy and Sheik that can punish Flip Jump, and it's called timing or reaching with other characters.

Flip Jump might not be as punishable as most other attacks, but no single attack in the game can go unpunished.

 

[DunnoBro]

On the first thing, if ZSS tries to string with U-Air against a Wizard's Foot mix up, Wizard's Foot will more than likely win for Ganondorf because the attack connects with ZSS. Ganondorf has an option to deal with ZSS's U-Air, and it's pretty effective at damages like 40%, as it will be an instant KO if the meteor hitbox doesn't connect.

The issue is ganondorf has a frame 4 air dodge on a huge ass body so there's no need to try a mix-up on him.

This is why rosalina's dair doesn't help her much in the situation. She doesn't need to mix it up.

On the second thing, there are tons of characters who can punish Flip Jump, like characters who can reach it with their U-Airs, characters who time their projectiles right (and are very close unless you're Link or Tink), characters who time their attacks correctly, Ganondorf with U-Smash (if ZSS is within kicking range) and more. There's more than just Diddy and Sheik that can punish Flip Jump, and it's called timing or reaching with other characters.

Flip Jump might not be as punishable as most other attacks, but no single attack in the game can go unpunished.

Due to the invincibility and control ZSS has over the move, you'll only "time" it right if they let you. They have the ability to respond to seeing you charge a smash and just drift away then punish you.

Most characters can punish it though, just not in ANY fashion that makes the risk/reward even. Which is the issue.

Diddy/Sheik can safely roll the hell outta there and needle/nana.

Furthermore, the move can't really be reacted to with those kinds of moves you mentioned, only preemptively stuffed.

For all intents and purposes, it's a quick attack that kills you.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Next patch, if anything, will probably just nerf some of the crazy stuff the shieldstun changes. So ZSS, Pika, Robin, and Ryu seem likely to get some immediate nerfs... Marth might get nerfed, but nothing gigantic since his base hits didn't get any safer. Roy might just get buffed for similar reasons. Don't think Lucario's shield break thing will make it since I've already seen a few fraud Lucarios go for it on for Glory.

I thought you didn't know anything about Robin, why do you think she needs to be nerfed?

 

[HeroMystic]

Boost kick isn't really the issue, it's the fact uair safely covers ALL options in a scenario the opponent has to deal with death and creates these unavoidable death scenarios (Jumping away can get you killed by uair raw too)

Flip kick is also pretty absurd with the fact there's no reason not to use it to return to neutral vs a loooot of characters. Only characters that can reliably punish it like sheik due to needles and diddy due to banana.

Beyond this, mobility is a huge factor as well, if not the main one. Her air speed, ground speed, and jump heights are all top class. ZSS is one of those characters that has a lot of qualities that sums up very well when she gets going.

Nairo is the only ZSS player that takes advantage of this though. Other ZSS are more neutral-oriented (which is where ZSS is at her weakest) and prefers playing their advantage state in bursts. That said, the new shield stun mechanics makes her neutral better as well.

 

[Trunks159]

Lets talk about Ike and Megaman in the top 8.

 

[thehard]

I don't think you guys realize how on point Nairo was with his grabs, you absolutely have to be against ZeRo and he knew that.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Lets talk about Ike and Megaman in the top 8.

Seeing a Mega Man in Top 8 was something I thought I'd never see. I feel proud as a Mega Main right now. :D

I don't think you guys realize how on point Nairo was with his grabs, you absolutely have to be against ZeRo and he knew that.

Nairo was incredibly consistent with his grabs and that lead to ZeRo's demise. It was an amazing set.

 

[Zelder]

So who was top 8? I can't seem to find anything online.

 

[Trunks159]

I mean, I knew Scat was good, but he definitely exceeded expectations this time. Maybe the shield Nerf was the cause. Ryo's pretty good so I'm not too surprised with Ike's results. Zelder . The top 8 are on the first post of the front page in Smashboards.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

https://twitter.com/BearUNLV/status/65592298806421504

#MLGFinals Top 8 #Smash4 @MLG
1 @Liquid_Nairo
2 @TSMZeRo
3 @PG_ESAM
4 @AllyOrNotAlly
5 @Mr_RSmash
5 @TheReflexWonder
7 @MVG_Ryo
7 @ScAttMM

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So TheReflexWonder , I have to do my job as Ike main in this topic and ask ya what did ya think of the match against Ryo in terms of how the MU plays out?

It was a pretty amazing set to watch btw.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario obviously loses neutral by virtue of being outranged and outdamaged by a huge margin, but Ike struggles to approach safely and is relatively easy to punish offstage (though my inexperience with that was showing in those matches), so it plays out like a scarier Rosalina for Wario (harder to approach, and there are more opportunities to get murdered).

I'd just tell Ike players to always recover with Forward-B if they can help it and then they can enjoy their trades and individual wins in neutral. Likely at least a little in Ike's favor overall; I'm feeling a slight disadvantage, but Waft is a real problem for him.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Predicted it tbh.

Tbh i'm going to comment on what i know best: Doc vs Pikachu MU.
Doc has at his disposal a very versatile combo game & Out of shield game to keep Pikachu worried about its mistakes. He also kills Pika effectively, a simple USmash/UpB OoS can kill as soon as 110% depending of the stage.
Of course, Doc's disadvantage state being what it is: pretty awful, you don't want to let Pikachu take you too deep in offstage, or otherwise you might just lose your stock very quickly. However, i guess you could say it's still not that awful of a diadvantage state thanks to a frame 3 nair & upb to escape some combos effectively.

I've always thought of this matchup as something very close to even, bu might be 55/45 Pikachu if we had to decide the more advantaged fighter, but with esam's lackluster experience vs Dr.Mario, it turned out very good for Nairo & his doc.

Tbh that's also not the only MU Doc is capable of doing well: I'd argue that the Fox matchup, Sonic matchup, Ness matchup, Mario matchup, Villager matchup and Rosalina matchup are all worth trying if you have a secondary Doc & struggles with one of those matchups, the usual lack of experience from your opponent may lead into Victory.

Also, Congratulations on TheReflexWonder for his placement as Wario. I had honestly lost a bit of faith for Wario those days with the utter lack of mains of him, and the acknowledgement that his matchups vs some charas above him are tough, but now i'm rather confident on his viability ( Waft is broken lol )

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Tbh that's also not the only MU Doc is capable of doing well: I'd argue that the Fox matchup, Sonic matchup, Ness matchup, Mario matchup, Villager matchup and Rosalina matchup are all worth trying if you have a secondary Doc & struggles with one of those matchups, the usual lack of experience from your opponent may lead into Victory.

I'll have to try that sometime. I have a lot of problems with Fox, Sonic, Ness, and Mario, and I dabble in Dr. Mario for fun a lot.

 

[adom4]

Wario obviously loses neutral by virtue of being outranged and outdamaged by a huge margin, but Ike struggles to approach safely and is relatively easy to punish offstage (though my inexperience with that was showing in those matches), so it plays out like a scarier Rosalina for Wario (harder to approach, and there are more opportunities to get murdered).

I'd just tell Ike players to always recover with Forward-B if they can help it and then they can enjoy their trades and individual wins in neutral. Likely at least a little in Ike's favor overall; I'm feeling a slight disadvantage, but Waft is a real problem for him.

What do you think of the Ganondorf vs Wario MU?
What you described sounds a lot like Ganon (except he probably does worse since he's a worse character than Ike).