Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

Sooo what I'm getting from all that Dr. Mario talk is that I should Hard Knuckle him more often.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Sooo what I'm getting from all that Dr. Mario talk is that I should Hard Knuckle him more often.

Just be a lil careful cause Side-B is really dumb lol.

I'm really disappointed that the Doc talk just....turned into that, but at least we got somewhat of a cool discussion going. Hopefully more chars (maybe even Doc again) see use at this level again so we can have more fun talking about it briefly!

 

[Peppermint1201]

I don't know about Falco. In my opinion he could be like a sort of Meta Knight where he has a lot of 50-50s and loses to the top tiers, but I don't know. I mean, where are the results? Unlike Meta Knight Falco doesn't have many innovators.

 

[Nobie]

How is the Falco vs. Luigi matchup now? In the past I've seen people argue that Luigi wins it because he can just out-damage and out-kill Falco outright, but with the changes to down throw they seem specially designed to give each other grief, similar to how Mega Man vs. Villager is a painful match on both sides.

Luigi's floatiness seems like it makes him a prime target for Falco's quick vertical movement, while Falco as a fast faller seems especially vulnerable to Luigi's juggles, just not as much as he used to be.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Luigi still has that frame 3 nair which breaks most of Falco's combos and can punish him for using his jab. His low % combos are also significantly better than Falco's. Falco also gets edge guarded by Luigi pretty hard. I think the MU is still vastly in his favor because of that.

 

[Nobie]

Oh, and as for Slip Counter. If you just hit him from the other side Little Mac will launch towards the blast zone and towards his death. Basically, if you can read the counter, you just have to cross him up and tap him lightly.

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh, and as for Slip Counter. If you just hit him from the other side Little Mac will launch towards the blast zone and towards his death. Basically, if you can read the counter, you just have to cross him up and tap him lightly.

This one time I tried it, I ended up getting hit by the counter anyway and I was killed first lol.

 

[Megamang]

Its like a broken ****ing record at this point, but ill be the one to say it this time... top level players aren't choosing the characters they choose for no reason.

Semantic arguments aside, can we agree that doc's recovery distance is bad but good players can avoid gimping with his tools.


Ok, i wanna dispel the frankly stupid idea that people dont try and gimp due to... what, not wanting to kill? The ledges in this game are less of a gimp doom zone and more like a traditional corner: with your back to the edge your options are limited and death via smash happens earlier than mid stage. Additionally, you are able to land a charged smash, ending stocks earlier than most strong offstage aerials would. Ledge trumping plays into this heavily, since it will cause your opponent to buffer ledge options, usually predictably. By comparison, offstage gimp attempts can be circumvented in more ways and are sometimes less dangerous.


I recall lots of stuffed ledge jumps at big house. This makes sense because it sends them back out and encourages risky options.


Any characters especially able to punish ledge jumps? Pika fsmash will get bigger characters' feet on ascent sometimes, tho im not sure if this is my opponents fault.

 

[Nabbitnator]

So is lucario decent competitively? i dont see him much but he seems like he has enough tools to get up there.

 

[Blobface]

Just be a lil careful cause Side-B is really dumb lol.

Wait, if you cape a Hard Knuckle does it fly up in Mega's face and make him plummet to his death? That sounds priceless.

And it's too late for me to go into a lot of detail but I still think people are slouches when it comes to edgeguarding. Ganon bias be damned, stop "covering ledge options" like a coward baby man and get out there.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wait, if you cape a Hard Knuckle does it fly up in Mega's face and make him plummet to his death? That sounds priceless.

And it's too late for me to go into a lot of detail but I still think people are slouches when it comes to edgeguarding. Ganon bias be damned, stop "covering ledge options" like a coward baby man and get out there.

It absolutely does. It's why Megaman Dair anywhere near the ledge vs. the Marios is funny as hell cause....well....yeah. Just Side-B and watch the world burn.

I've done it like twice online and once to my friend. It was fantastic.

 

[G. Stache]

How is the Falco vs. Luigi matchup now? In the past I've seen people argue that Luigi wins it because he can just out-damage and out-kill Falco outright, but with the changes to down throw they seem specially designed to give each other grief, similar to how Mega Man vs. Villager is a painful match on both sides.

Luigi's floatiness seems like it makes him a prime target for Falco's quick vertical movement, while Falco as a fast faller seems especially vulnerable to Luigi's juggles, just not as much as he used to be.

From my experience (I use both characters) Luigi still has a good MU. Great frame data comes in handy as Luigi's Nair still breaks combos, and his aerials in general are faster than falcos (kind of big as Falco personally prefers the air). Falco appreciates a grab, but I feel as if that's rather unsafe for him because that puts him in Luigi's grab range. Falco doesn't want to be taking 30ish percentage from Luigi at a time, so it's better to use Falco's close range sparingly. Thankfully, his specials come in handy for that. Falco has a reflector/poking tool, a laser (which is admittedly a bit crap but whatever) and he has Falco phantasm. Falco has a great edge guarding game that, if done correctly, scares Luigi quite a lot. Lastly, while Luigi is indeed really floaty, I rather be the floaty in this situation than the fast faller. Falco still gets juggled a lot more than we do. I agree that the MU is annoying on both ends of the stick, but Luigi still comes out the winner as his strengths outshine Falcos. Obviously, if you have any (counter) points, feel free to contribute, I wrote this hastily

 

[RonNewcomb]

Actually, were any other customs put into usability by the last patch? A lot of them were changed.

Link's Shocking Spin got a damage buff, but I'm not a fan. Link needs many things to balance him out, but damage isn't one of them. And SS loses what little combo-into ability Spin Attack had, so why nerf your recovery?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You have to remember that your guys' boxing games are near parallel, so if Falco can dominate there, he dominates the Match and vise-versa.

 

[Antonykun]

Spoiler: mini rant about stuff that I'm probably wrong about at way past my bedtime

I want to talk about a very annoying...thing? Idk what to call it, when people say "Top Level players pick characters for a reason"

It's annoying because it assumes/implies that top players are picking characters based solely on how good they are as opposed to other factors.

in reality though performance is only one of the factors that goes in top level mains. Theres also playstyle preference like how Nairo and Dabuz pick ZSS and Rosalina respectively to suit their incredibly punish based and turtling based playstyles respectively or how you simply like a character or are a character loyalist like ESAM and Pikachu. This is a game where I can name at least 15 that can win a major with the right player and there are plenty of those characters have players who could get away with winning a major. If said players simply chose the character that they can win with they would all chose Sheik and perfect her to the point where her potential really does hold up to invalidating the cast, and yet here we are/were discussing wether or not ZSS is better than Sheik (I doubt it)
this is why talking about viability requires you to understand the theory behind the character to see WHY the results happened they way they did. thoguh theory only, no result is just as dangerous, it only takes one to three feverish theorycrafters to convince a population to believe a character is way better than what they are.

tl:dr top level players don't neccesarily pick characters because they are good and characters can even become good only after a top level player levels up their meta.

^word of warning I might not respond to any replies for this just because i may realize how flawed some of my points were


now onto an actual character's viability discussion. I hate Swordfighter's lack of kill throw every other Swordfighter (even Meta Knight who isn't a Swordfighter apparently despite wielding a sword and Megaman who uses the Flame Sword as his F-air) has a kill throw. I can grab you at the ledge at 200% and you don't have to worry about dying which sucks because his grab is amazing and his playstyle is really good at forcing your opponent to block. If there had to be ONE thing i would patch about him it would be a 150% hell 200% kill throw

 

[Routa]

*looks at "SWF Community Voted Tier List"*
*sees people voting Doc and Kirby to tier above Tink and Waifus*
*finds the nearest rope and hangs himself*

It absolutely does. It's why Megaman Dair anywhere near the ledge vs. the Marios is funny as hell cause....well....yeah. Just Side-B and watch the world burn.

So does it reflect it upwards or something?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Any downward projectile will reflect upwards. Hard Knuckle is no exception.

Robin's Elwind blades take the cake though. Not only do they go right back up after reflection, but since the Elwind blades have upward knockback normally, reflected Elwinds will hit Robin at a downward trajectory. A reflected Elwind is essentially a spikebox for the entire duration of the move.

 

[Megamang]

Ok, ill admit i was simplifying things, its just as untrue as people who act like zero playing ganon would make him shiek speed. Optimized chars are ones with room to optimize, that is all.

 

[Man Li Gi]

now onto an actual character's viability discussion. I hate Swordfighter's lack of kill throw every other Swordfighter (even Meta Knight who isn't a Swordfighter apparently despite wielding a sword and Megaman who uses the Flame Sword as his F-air) has a kill throw. I can grab you at the ledge at 200% and you don't have to worry about dying which sucks because his grab is amazing and his playstyle is really good at forcing your opponent to block. If there had to be ONE thing i would patch about him it would be a 150% hell 200% kill throw

Yeah, but there's characters who have meh to bad grabs and would love to have a kill throw.....Ganon, Samus are two I see ATM. Honestly giving everyone a kill throw would be an interesting meta.

 

[Megamang]

Ive always felt heavies deserve kill throws. Besides just making sense, i dont see a balance problem. They wouldn't be that potent in FFA, being single target...

 

[Ffamran]

I actually think Falco's uthrow is pretty similar to a lot of character's uthrows in the sense that it's use is "just get the opponent above me so I can juggle". Falco just happens to be able to ascend very high very quickly.

So, Falco's U-throw has 38 total frames to Fox's 49. Unfortunately, I don't think Smashboards has any total frames for throw data that can easily be accessed, so I'm reliant on the sixriver data. Let's assume that Melee Fox's U-throw also had 38 total frames. The main thing is that it lets Melee Fox act out of his U-throw quicker and jump up for a Uair. Smash 4 Fox can't do this as quickly. He can get positional advantage, but it's not like Falco's who can throw you up really high at that point or just has so little recovery he can pick an option freely. At 0%, Falco's U-throw without the laser hitting which I don't think is possible outside of maybe Luma taking the hit or somehow in 2v2 to FFA, someone manages to get in between him and whoever he's throwing, Falco's got +13 for frame advantage and with the laser, he's going to be +25.

This isn't possible as Fox's U-throw throw part does 2% and has different knockback, but let's say it does have the same. So, with 49 total frames, that's 11 more frames than Falco's U-throw and if everything was the same, Fox would be at most -5 because of his frame 4 jump eating the +2 leftover from this theory Fox U-throw with or without lasers since his doesn't do any knockback. Falco on the other hand, with laser hitting, if he chooses to jump will be left with +13 because of his frame 6 jump. +12 is perfect with his frame 7 Uair, frame 3 Nair, and even frame 4 Bair if he can position himself or if his opponent decides it's a great idea to DI behind Falco. Fox's U-throw does send you up 90 degrees, but without laser knockback, he won't get another confirm which for Falco, it's a 94 degree throw which and a 90 degree hit angle from his laser. Note: degrees close to 90 degrees are difficult to DI.

The way they changed it so Falco only shot once helped as well. I think because he shooting three times could cause stupid stuff to happen in previous games. Also, perhaps an angle change to his U-throw? I don't know. Here's the funny thing, if they had changed it so Falco's U-, B-, and D-throw laser hits functioned exactly like his regular Blaster lasers, he could have the most broken throws in the game. Think about it: D-throw would essentially create a lock where Falco can use any ground hitting move like Dtilt, Up Smash, or Down Smash to grab to kill confirm you, U-throw would stop you at set heights if the laser connects leading to more setups and with the same to logic to B-throw could make B-throw the ultimate team throw. That assumes things are changed to make them work and if they did, they would be terrifying done right or wrong; they could be the worse or best throws in the game and for all the wrong reasons.

In a similar case, Ike's U-throw has 42 total frames. I don't know how much frame advantage Ike will get at 0%, but 42 is lower than Fox's 49. Not to mention that both Ike and Falco's throw parts do more than 2% unlike Fox. Ike's in a position where he can use Nair?, Fair, and Uair to hit as all of them hit above. At low percents, people aren't thrown as high, and even then, his U-throw has low knockback overall.

I don't know about Falco. In my opinion he could be like a sort of Meta Knight where he has a lot of 50-50s and loses to the top tiers, but I don't know. I mean, where are the results? Unlike Meta Knight Falco doesn't have many innovators.

It's more of the opposite really. Falco does well against top and high tiers outside of Rosalina, Luigi, and what has been recently acknowledged, Ike, but struggles against random characters like Triple D, DK, Bowser, Shulk, Toon Link, Wario, Robin?, the Pits, Marth, and definitely Palutena had customs been accepted.

All of this stems from one issue: Falco is a zoner who can't zone. Triple D despite how his Gordo works, Samus despite how dysfunctional she may be, and even Diddy are better at zoning than Falco. And it's all because of how they never compensated for removing Falco's ability to auto-cancel his Blaster unlike Fox through patch 1.1.0 who even without compensation, had low enough total frames, 42 or 43 - can't remember -, where it doesn't matter compared to Falco not to mention Fox's much higher overall mobility. (Dr.) Mario's Fireball total frames of 52 is borderline with that much range, low knockback, good damage, ability to cover area non-linearly, (Dr.) Mario's mobility, and that unlike Fox and Falco, he can move during Fireball, Pikachu's Thunder Jolt total frames of 57 works because of how the projectile moves, how much set knockback it does, Pikachu's mobility, and also like (Dr.) Mario, Pikachu's ability to move during Thunder Jolt. Now, let's up that total even more where it most matters: on the ground, to 58 frames, let's include the fact Falco's Blaster lasers are linear, thin projectiles that do very little set knockback compared to other set knockback projectiles like Pikachu's Thunder Jolt and ZSS's Stun Gun. Ryu works his Hadouken's/Shakunetsu's total frames of 58 just fine because he can vary the speed, vary the way it hits, and it's a massive fireball compared to Falco's thin laser.

No one's going to be way up in the air like that at the start of the match or even during the match. By default, so without Specials and not constantly, nobody matches Falco's jump and that's a problem if you want to use aerial Blaster which has 49 total frames. Falco's hop isn't high - it's the same as Fox's -, but the issue is that even still, it's not going to hit people unless they're as tall as Captain Falcon? or you fire close enough to the ground and end up dealing with ground Blaster's 58 total frames.

Falco doesn't have much innovation like Meta Knight because for one, his Up Special, Fire Bird doesn't kill or work like Shuttle Loop or ZSS's Boost Kick; Fire Bird for all intents and purposes is an inferior Fire Wolf and an inferior, multi-hitting version of Fire Fox that travels less, has the same launch frame, and doesn't properly hit. It's a disgustingly terrible move that never evolved unlike other clone moves like Ganondorf's Dark Dive and Flame Choke, Roy's Blazer or Flare Blade, Dr. Mario's Super Jump Punch or derived moves like Luca's PK Thunder or Wolf's Fire Wolf which at least works and does something different unlike Fire Bird. Falco is kind of barebones as a character. There's no secret technique, super easy and useful setup, or ridiculous thing about him. This is more of a disadvantage as Falco is really reliant on fundamentals and with his slow mobility, really reliant on making use of all movement options while other characters can get away with basic movement like walk, run, jump, hop, and pivots. Falco kind of needs everything including stuff perfect pivots and wall jumps.

That being said, the main leaders of what can be done with Falco are Cyro and Keitaro; Cyro's responsible for ideas like wall jump aerials, high technical play, and jab ledge cancel to Nair and Keitaro's responsible for Falco's 60-something placement at EVO, usage of Up Smash at ledge which A2ZOMG discussed about and BltzZ talked about using Utilt at the ledge, but I don't remember people ever using it, and recent matches had him bait air dodges to rising Bairs. The best player would be Larry Lurr, though. A combination of Larry being a good player and Larry playing Falco well. FOW plays Falco, but I haven't seen it since like 3DS days, ZeRo probably contributed to Falco players using D-throw to Bair more often because of a clip he had where he used it, and I guess Shaya's the reason Falco players use U-throw a lot since he advocated for it. When it comes to Dtilt abuse, I don't know. Maybe GimR and then Keitaro? GimR does abuse his Uair, though. Nair's combo usage comes from the video IAN made showing the autolink angles added in patch 1.0.8, McDareth's the one who advocates for Fair trades to semi-spike, posted the video about the slide thingie which helps Falco as he can whiff Bair or whatever into anything and slide with it, and Bair spam was always there, but Ally's notorious for it along with short hop double laser followups after D-throw, especially against off-stage, and probably influenced Michigan Falco players or users, Daybreak and Nom, to abusing it like Wolf players would. Also, I remember Zanryo trying to get the D-throw to Ftilt lock done a while ago by a random Japanese Falco player against Pon's Ganondorf and most of the more weird movement stuff like pivot walking and perfect pivot just cause comes from Japanese players. Perfect pivot to moves was kind of done by False as a concept. Pivot Ftilt and Fire Bird at the ledge are all borrowed from Fox. Manny Manito's the reason why a lot of Falco players will hop around backwards baiting you into eating a Bair. It's a flipping bird; you'd get offended too.

Still, a lot of the things discovered with Falco aren't groundbreaking. They're just more stuff Falco can do and confuse the hell out of you. It's like, "Oh, we can use rising Dairs to put out a lingering hit and be able to auto-cancel it since it's from a jump". Okay... That just means Falco can choose between 3 rising, lingering moves, Nair, Fair, and Dair, to make you want to challenge him... None of it's like, "Ike's U-throw to Fair works because of the proper hitbox!", or whatever Dunnobro's got cooking with Duck Hunt. It's more like we end up figuring out Falco's options and at this rate, Falco might have too many decent to good options.

Luigi still has that frame 3 nair which breaks most of Falco's combos and can punish him for using his jab. His low % combos are also significantly better than Falco's. Falco also gets edge guarded by Luigi pretty hard. I think the MU is still vastly in his favor because of that.

It's more of a problem for all characters with below frame 6 moves. If you're Fox, Luigi, Ryu, whatever. You can and you will interrupt Falco's jab mixup and rapid jab where it'll slightly punish him for picking basic options to outright killing him if you have a strong enough move like Yoshi or Luigi's Nair or Ryu's Shoryuken, Dr. Mario's SJP, and Jigglypuff's Rest. Blame the developers for giving him +5 total frames to jab 1, +7 to jab 2, and +2 to +4 to jab 2 to rapid jab's transition. Without this issue, Luigi would still be a disadvantageous MU for Falco, but not one because of stupid stuff he'll die. This goes for Ryu, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Roy, Marth, and probably more. Yes, a jab should have so much recovery and be a bad option. Really? Jabs are supposed to be safe, especially if they're meant to combo together and not be the ultimate, but mostly stupid mixup jab Samus has which has been fixed... I think.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Pit stuff from all the way back at page 322

These changes may have evened him out, but they also took half the fun out of playing him, which is why I dropped the character. No more onstage WoI shenanigans, no more sliding AYAYAYAYAYAYAY, no more bouncing Earthbound Kids into oblivion with mirror shield, no more harassing people with arrow loops during PS1 transformations, no fun allowed, just a basic, effective character.

Personally I prefer characters that lean hard in a certain direction.

None of this is relevant to the thread though

Uh... Pit is good. Better than he was in Brawl somehow. Sheik is better.

EDIT: Having skimmed these past few pages, were we seriously considering that Palutena's recovery is somehow worse than Doc's? Is that a real thing that someone actually believes?

 

[Nobie]

Yeah, but there's characters who have meh to bad grabs and would love to have a kill throw.....Ganon, Samus are two I see ATM. Honestly giving everyone a kill throw would be an interesting meta.

We Smash 64 now.

Thinking about kill throws, the fact that Mewtwo has one of the best really affects one's mindset. All of his other KO moves require a smart read during footsies or as part of a mixup, with little guaranteed, but as you damage the opponent over the course of a match you also have a goal percent to reach. That damage percent is the point that you can go, "Eh screw it -> Up throw."

Another thing I find interesting is how much the game dislikes killer forward throws. There's Bowser's, which pales in comparison to most other deadly throws (and Bowser has the much more powerful flying slam), and the Pits', which is heavily reliant on rage.

 

[Megamang]

And wario's, which is funny because he is a troll/anti "honest" (anti mario, tho he isnt honest like we use it) character.

 

[IsmaR]

I'd argue has a pretty good forward throw for killing. At least as situational as his back throw.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Ugh...I wish Peach's forward throw slap was her kill throw again, while having melees sound effect, but now its her booty that's got all the power xD

Same for Kirby, his Bthrows is slightly stronger then Uthrow, yet its a simple suplex compared to a sky rocket jump in the air then slamming down with an explosion.

So weird...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Guys, I have some breaking news for you ...


... Doc is still bad.

I'd imagine in the Fox matchup in particular it's a tossup between Melee Charge Shot's charging speed and inability to be reflected or Dense Charge Shot to make recovery hell for him. Heck, I think Samus could make a lot of recoveries miserable with a gigantic, slow moving energy ball of DEATH. It's just the loss of usefulness in neutral plus longer charge time that keeps it from being used more.

Technically Dense Charge Shot is a lot better vs Fox. Practically it's irrelevant because Samus won't win against Fox either way.

 

[Jamurai]

There's been at least three people ask to talk about Megaman but not actually start a discussion; the only thing we've actually talked about is reflecting Hard Knuckle, and that's because someone actually mentioned something about Megaman. If you wanna talk about Megaman ask something specific because it's more likely to spark a discussion than "he did well at MLG so what up?"

I've heard that he may be underrated, but I also heard that he has very problematic matchups against some top tiers. Is he similar to Doc in that he has some matchups that he does relatively well in, but struggles to be solo viable because of some gatekeepers (I would imagine the good zonebreakers such as Sheik)? Scatt certainly made a decent case for him being somewhat viable as a solo main, but I feel that he would be a better pick either with a secondary to cover his bad matchups, or (similar to Doc) as a counterpick character.

 

[Greward]

There's been at least three people ask to talk about Megaman but not actually start a discussion; the only thing we've actually talked about is reflecting Hard Knuckle, and that's because someone actually mentioned something about Megaman. If you wanna talk about Megaman ask something specific because it's more likely to spark a discussion than "he did well at MLG so what up?"

I've heard that he may be underrated, but I also heard that he has very problematic matchups against some top tiers. Is he similar to Doc in that he has some matchups that he does relatively well in, but struggles to be solo viable because of some gatekeepers (I would imagine the good zonebreakers such as Sheik)? Scatt certainly made a decent case for him being somewhat viable as a solo main, but I feel that he would be a better pick either with a secondary to cover his bad matchups, or (similar to Doc) as a counterpick character.

Pretty much what you said. He's viable if you can cover his horrible matchups with secondaries.
He does pretty good against some top tiers like Sonic and Ryu but loses horribly against some others.

 

[Radical Larry]

@meleebrawler But his U-Throw is good because at certain damages (DI or not), a quick enough RAR double jump U-Air will kill the opponent. Even grazing the U-Air will KO the opponent because of how high Falco and the opponent really are. Falco's U-Throw acts like a D-Throw and U-Throw mixed up; the amazing combo ability of D-Throw and the amazing KB and stun of a U-Throw.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pretty much what you said. He's viable if you can cover his horrible matchups with secondaries.
He does pretty good against some top tiers like Sonic and Ryu but loses horribly against some others.

Well, he certainly doesn't lose 'horribly' to Fox [if he loses that matchup at all], he probably doesn't get beaten horribly by Diddy/Pikachu and according to Rosalina players Megaman doesn't lose that matchup either. So it's it's basically Sheik and ZSS that body him?

 

[Greward]

Well, he certainly doesn't lose 'horribly' to Fox [if he loses that matchup at all], he probably doesn't get beaten horribly by Diddy/Pikachu and according to Rosalina players Megaman doesn't lose that matchup either. So it's it's basically Sheik and ZSS that body him?

Mario is there too as very hard. Sheik is probably the worst.
I still believe Fox is bad even with Scatt beating Megafox. He lost to Nakat in winners in the same tournament though, and I guess Nakat used Fox there. I really want to watch that set :x
He also loses noticeably against Falcon but I don't know how bad it is, since Falcon is always a winnable matchup because of how sad his recovery is lol. Pit probably too but pit is irrelevant in america.
He is evenish with Diddy / Rosa / Pikachu and probably beats Sonic / Ryu / Villager so he should be relevant in the metagame.

 

[Zelder]

Hey ~ Gheb ~ , who do you think is the best Fox player in the world currently? I feel like you would be the guy to ask about that, and I'm curious. I think Fox is really good but I haven't seen him dominate in a while (though I've been pretty lax about keeping up with/going to tournaments lately).

 

[Wintropy]

These changes may have evened him out, but they also took half the fun out of playing him, which is why I dropped the character. No more onstage WoI shenanigans, no more sliding AYAYAYAYAYAYAY, no more bouncing Earthbound Kids into oblivion with mirror shield, no more harassing people with arrow loops during PS1 transformations, no fun allowed, just a basic, effective character.

Personally I prefer characters that lean hard in a certain direction.

To each their own. I personally find Brawl Pit incredibly dull, I think he's more of a series of indistinct gimmicks than anything.

That and I find him totally devoid of personality. That really turned me off, I didn't identify with him in any way.

But I see where you're coming from. I think the fact that he has to use moves besides his specials makes him a much more diverse and interesting character, but I won't begrudge you if you don't think the same.

Uh... Pit is good. Better than he was in Brawl somehow. Sheik is better.

Agreed.

Having skimmed these past few pages, were we seriously considering that Palutena's recovery is somehow worse than Doc's? Is that a real thing that someone actually believes?

Agreed times a thousand.

I'm wondering if there's reason to believe Palutena is a viable counterpick for certain matchups. Probably not, but that doesn't stop me. I'd definitely rather her in matchups where a reliable reflector is useful (Dedede, Villager, etc) or just to make good of matchup inexperience. The fact that she plays so fundamentally differently from Pit helps.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mario is there too as very hard. Sheik is probably the worst.
I still believe Fox is bad even with Scatt beating Megafox. He lost to Nakat in winners in the same tournament though, and I guess Nakat used Fox there. I really want to watch that set :x
He also loses noticeably against Falcon but I don't know how bad it is, since Falcon is always a winnable matchup because of how sad his recovery is lol. Pit probably too but pit is irrelevant in america.
He is evenish with Diddy / Rosa / Pikachu and probably beats Sonic / Ryu / Villager so he should be relevant in the metagame.

I thought pocket made villager a bad MU?

 

[adom4]

To each their own. I personally find Brawl Pit incredibly dull, I think he's more of a series of indistinct gimmicks than anything.

I like him here because he doesn't sound like a frog that just got punched in the balls anymore.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Can we talk about for a bit?
He's interesting & definitly an alright zoner in this game, but idk exactly what to think as of right now, with its mediocre results in majors ( excluding Japan ) & hindering matchups vs some of the characters above him.

 

[Y2Kay]

I like him here because he doesn't sound like a frog that just got punched in the balls anymore.

Any body who hates brawl pit loves smash 4 pit and vice versa it seems

 

[Wintropy]

Can we talk about for a bit?
He's interesting & definitly an alright zoner in this game, but idk exactly what to think as of right now, with its mediocre results in majors ( excluding Japan ) & hindering matchups vs some of the characters above him.

Yes, please. I've tried to open discussions on the character before but it never really went anywhere.

What I do know is, the top player in my scene hates R.O.B. and can't figure out how to beat him. He doesn't even know why. He just can't break open the robot. Is he just that good a zoner?

 

[bc1910]

Gyro is a really good move. That's basically what it boils down to with ROB's zoning. Learn to play around it and/or use it against him, and don't fight ROB online. Breaking him open will then become a lot easier. I mean it's not like he's bad up close but he's not particularly special. Just really watch out for the Beep Boop at certain percents.

What results does ROB have in Japan? Genuine question.