Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Routa]

If you're not an FE character you're not a swordsman apparently.

*FE character or Shulk

(True) Swordsman = a character whose game plan is to play footsies and space with his/her long disjointed hitboxes (sword). Also swordsman lacks a projectiles that could be used for zoning or approaching.

MK and Mii Swordfighter aren't what we call a true swordsman. They belong to Brawler archetype (small size + small disjointed moves and offensive playstyle).

Link, Toon Link and Robin are more a mix of Brawler and Zoner.

 

[Rizen]

Meta Knight's forward smash hits on frame 24 and is among the best moves in the game.

But that's also because MK has other fast smashes like his frame 4 Dsmash to fill the void. I'm just saying that MK has the frame data to cover a slow Fsmash but on a slow character it would be pretty bad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

too many Foxes overall though.

I'm mostly surprised about the lack of ZSS considering how popular that character was in Brawl.

Fox has been gaining an insane amount of popularity even in my local scene and I'm left wondering why that's the case.

Because he's very good and easy to play? In terms of difficulty he's about as hard to play as Mario [without the lack of kill setups] or Luigi [exept Fox doesn't get his ass camped off]. Maybe not *that* braindead but it's not hard to be successful with him, especially in high/high-mid level of play.

It's not the amount of Fox being played that should surprise people because Fox is just that good. It's the relative lack of ZSS/Pikachu/Sonic that should have people wondering because these characters are also super-good but they have way less rep for like no reason.

 

[DunnoBro]

His "return to neutral" is probably Top5 of the game. And his recovery is in the better half as well. The problem is his mediocre grab and that he has no reliable way to get the kill.

Uhh, no they are not lol

His landing is potent in the sense that it has the ability to cross up opponents with big damage with egg lay or kills with egg toss. But they aren't consistent or safe, when yoshi JUST wants to land he has a lot of trouble due to being big, floaty, with no directional hitboxes to put out.

And his recovery while more reliable in the recovering aspect, is still rather unsafe due to the sheer inability to sweetspot the ledge.

These two issues also flow into each other, as while Yoshi has high air speed, the inability to sweetspot makes it obvious he isn't going very far offstage when being juggled so it's easier to guess where he'll eventually land and you won't get punished for guessing wrong by a ledge jump > aerial.

(I stand by the notion that any character who just CAN'T sweetspot the ledge can't have better than a mediocre recovery.)

Yoshi needs to read his opponent to land, GOOD landings demand the opponent read them.

The only "combo" Ness has leading to a grab is PK Fire, and we all know how easy that is to land. Even then it's one the easiest moves to Smash DI in the game, especially for lightweight Mewtwo.

Ness doesn't combo into his grab, he just scares you into shielding with his aerials.

If we're talking use in neutral or overall usefulness then yes dsmash is the best smash, but you can't ignore usmash's amazing ability to clutch out game-winning punishes with it's great startup.

Actually dtilt with it's trip rate is a pretty reliable set-up for grab. In general though yea, ness is just trying to punish you with grab.

(Uair at low percents also works but we're not too worried about his grab at that %)

cause Fox is just that good. It's the relative lack of ZSS/Pikachu/Sonic that should have people wondering because these characters are also super-good but they have way less rep for like no reason.

Yea, fox is definitely the best/easiest top tier now. Looooots of players picking them up in md/va the past few weeks and even more post-luigi patch.

Also pika/sonic are about as good but demand a much less fun playstyle and mindset, and ZSS needs a very confident player who is able to consistently capitalize off every neutral win. She's fun to play but at mid-level you'll get frustrated and outneutraled imo

Fox at mid-level gets a lot of free neutral wins because people think they can punish stuff like DA, sideb, or well-spaced dair/nair and get uptilted, and people aren't adept at exploiting his recovery/fast falling status.

Also, on the topic of Yoshi I think ZeRo's explanation of him as "just barely viable" is only true post shield nerf patch. But I do agree he's definitely viable now.

There were just soooo many issues with him in a lot of MUs before.

1: Fair on shield was not only shield grabbable by many chars unless spaced in an awkward manner, but characters like Sheik, Diddy, or Rosalina with quick front-hitting OoS options could both stuff it preemptively AND punish it on shield. It was not a viable "walling" option before as a dash-in shielded fair = shield grab.
2: He had no safe kill set-ups from neutral. He couldn't consistently bait/punish the opponent for kills and not risk dying himself. He always needed to win neutral than make yet another read to kill. Now he has fair.
3: Shields were just in general his biggest weakness and didn't allow his neutral to actually function in a lot of MUs.

 

[Antonykun]

His advantage is one of his best aspects. In early% he has a lot of crazy combos. An easy way to secure the kill is his main problem imo. With a kill throw Yoshi would be a really strong and scary top tier.

correct me if I'm wrong but I thought combos, due to their guaranteed nature as opposed to say a pressure string were closer to neutral rather than advantage

If you're not an FE character you're not a swordsman apparently.

TFW Link is an FE character

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Why? Roy is a direct upgrade of Marth. He's faster, stronger, and has better damage racking and combos.

No. You're making the fatal error of only focusing on reward. Your logic is flawed.

 

[Nobie]

You don't just throw Mewtwo's smash attacks out without thinking. They're not pokes, they're part of a larger overall set of mind games. Down Smash is to safely fish or bate and punish, and is transcendent so it can trade with/beat a lot of things. Forward Smash has more power than Down Smash and is mainly used for mixups from down throw or confusion. No, they are not guaranteed. That's not the point. F-smash is just one of many things to do. Up-smash is mainly for punishes, strong vertical KOs, and more mixups.

In talking about smashes though, one can't forget Down B. That's for when people start to get a little too complacent with their shielding.

 

[Jucchan]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

 

[meleebrawler]

But that's also because MK has other fast smashes like his frame 4 Dsmash to fill the void. I'm just saying that MK has the frame data to cover a slow Fsmash but on a slow character it would be pretty bad.

So basically you also think MK's Fsmash is a bad move.

The reason dsmash is so much more used compared to MK's that it's a key component in Mewtwo's "keep the opponent out" game, specifically it fulfills the anti-ground approach role. Lots of people know that Mewtwo is very vulnerable when you get in, heck even his trophy knows it. Therefore his gameplan is largely focused around stopping the opponent from doing that while getting his damage in.

And nearly all of his moves have a use in this. Dtilt/Dsmash and sometimes Disable stop ground approaches. Confusion is anti-shield. Utilt/Usmash serve as anti-airs, with his bair serving as a more advanced answer against other aerials. Uncharged balls slow down approaches while charged ones exert Pressure at nearly any distance. Jab, pivot ftilts and grabs are the penultimate line (his fthrow is pretty much the ultimate GTFO throw with it's damage and on a character who likes his opponents some distance away), and finally short-hop airdodges coupled with his good mobility and options let him play evasively when he can't meet his opponent's advance with an attack.

 

[Rizen]

So basically you also think MK's Fsmash is a bad move.

I didn't say that. MK's Fsmash has a good role in his moveset. He has fast GTFO moves too.

 

[KirbySquad101]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

Not trying to be rude, but what's with the 10 difference spot placements between Pit and D-Pit that I keep seeing? Aren't they pretty much the same character aside from 3 moves?

EDIT: Just saw the no order part; my bad. Still, though, aren't they close enough to be placed the same?

Also, damn, poor Kirby. DX

 

[DunnoBro]

Not trying to be rude, but what's with the 10 difference spot placements between Pit and D-Pit that I keep seeing? Aren't they pretty much the same character aside from 3 moves?

Also, damn, poor Kirby. DX

More versatile arrows and more reliable killing sideb give Pit an edge over DP imo. What benefits are there to DP's arrows? Anti-luma?

 

[wedl!!]

The only high level Peach mains I've seen is Slayerz, lloD, and Dark.Pch. None have been making waves.

SlayerZ is busy with RL things. lloD (and his brother SmashGod) are wifi warriors and don't travel often. Dark.Pch doesn't go to tournaments for his own reasons.

Umeki and Kie are also high level Peach mains, but Japan isn't as relevant to us in terms of results, right?

 

[HeavyLobster]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

Japan still has Ike too low. It's getting less egregious though. Also Lucas in bottom makes no sense. He's not worse than average.

 

[meleebrawler]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

Nice to see someone who sees Mewtwo's merits instead of just a punching bag that dies easily.

Lucas is indeed way too low. Is he just nonexistent?

Pittoo being a whole tier below Pit is indeed suspect when you see Marth and Lucina in the same one (not saying they don't deserve to be, but still...).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucas needs to be higher. Dark Pit is next to Pit.

Literally my only two grievances with this list.

 

[KirbySquad101]

More versatile arrows and more reliable killing sideb give Pit an edge over DP imo. What benefits are there to DP's arrows? Anti-luma?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DP is better (I find Pit better of the two as well); I just don't feel the difference in their moves is really big enough to justify Pit being a WHOLE tier above DP.

Nice to see someone who sees Mewtwo's merits instead of just a punching bag that dies easily.

I could be wrong, but I think Japan in general seems to view Mewtwo (along with G&W) in a much more positive light than American players.

 

[L9999]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

Why DP is not with Pit baffles me, they are the same character. Ike belongs in B+, GnW does not. Doc, M2, and Mac are questionable, the garbage tiers are alright except for Lucas.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

Overall honestly... not bad. A few oddities (Lucas too low, Mewtwo/Dr.Mario too high, switch Ike and G&W, Dark Pit should be with Pit) but otherwise considering its not ordered within tiers not really much else to say.

rip Ike's constant string of buffs.

 

[Jucchan]

Honest question, does anyone actually play Lucas and succeed? I did a bracket search and the best result was Marss using him as a secondary to win a local and Lunacy getting 5th at a regional with him.

 

[Baskerville]

More versatile arrows and more reliable killing sideb give Pit an edge over DP imo. What benefits are there to DP's arrows? Anti-luma?

That would be Electroshock.

 

[warionumbah2]

I could be wrong, but I think Japan in general seems to view Mewtwo (along with G&W) in a much more positive light than American players.

Japan had Metaknight at +B tier back when America had him at bottom tier or some Mid tier nonsense. Interesting how Japan tends to have the most sense.

 

[Tri Knight]

Tier list has a few characters that are placed too low in my opinion but I guess overall it's accurate.

 

[Zelder]

I had this whole thing typed up before I realized it wasn't ordered within tiers. Yeah, I can gel with that tier list. I feel like if it weren't for Earth though Pit might be down one tier.

 

[Smog Frog]

it seems as if being light isnt as detrimental to a characters perceived viability in japan as compared to here. they seem to put kit first and physics next(it would theoretically explain and placement.) in particular has some truly ******** things within his kit. upb is ****ing amazing for everything except recovering and starting combos. oos, beating ****, ending combos(the sweetspot range is actually very big; his hand expands in size and its disjointed), edgeguarding, whatever it is upb is probably good at.
based on kit alone is probably upper mid. then you throw in garbage physics and he drops considerably. its simple.

 

[zeldasmash]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

A+: Expected.

A: I don't know if Pit should be up there with the likes of Pikachu & Ryu. Him at the top of B+ is a petter placing imo. Everything else is good.

B+: I think Mr. Game & Watch is too high. Everything else looks good.

B: I think Ike should be at the bottom of B+, Why are Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, Little Mac & Bowser Jr. here? Duck Hunt is also a bit too high.

C+: I fail to see how Link is this low. If characters like Mewtwo, Dr. Mario & Bowser Jr. can make it into B-, why is Link so low? I know he isn't the greatest thing ever, but below characters like Falco, King Dedede, Lucina & Shulk? B- is a tier where Link should be, not the last position that puts him near characters like Zelda & Jigglypuff.

C-: I disagree with Lucas being this low. I think Samus & Ganondorf should be the leaders here because both of them have stuff that people have to respect. Characters like Jigglypuff and Zelda really don't have much at all because of their godawful neutral (Ganondorf at least has the punish factor where basically 2/3 hits and you're dead).

 

[Pazzo.]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

Fairly accurate.

Ike, Lucas, and Robin could be higher. I like Ryu and Greninja's placement.

What G&W player put his character at B+??

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What G&W player put his character at B+??

Songun.

 

[Pazzo.]

Songun.

Any videos?

 

[KirbySquad101]

A+: Expected.

A: I don't know if Pit should be up there with the likes of Pikachu & Ryu. Him at the top of B+ is a petter placing imo. Everything else is good.

B+: I think Mr. Game & Watch is too high. Everything else looks good.

B: I think Ike should be at the bottom of B+, Why are Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, Little Mac & Bowser Jr. here? Duck Hunt is also a bit too high.

C+: I fail to see how Link is this low. If characters like Mewtwo, Dr. Mario & Bowser Jr. can make it into B-, why is Link so low? I know he isn't the greatest thing ever, but below characters like Falco, King Dedede, Lucina & Shulk? B- is a tier where Link should be, not the last position that puts him near characters like Zelda & Jigglypuff.

C-: I disagree with Lucas being this low. I think Samus & Ganondorf should be the leaders here because both of them have stuff that people have to respect. Characters like Jigglypuff and Zelda really don't have much at all because of their godawful neutral (Ganondorf at least has the punish factor where basically 2/3 hits and you're dead).

It's not ordered within tiers.

 

[TDK]

I've refrained from posting my own list as of yet.

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

Japan does not like Ike or Lucas. I fail to see how Palutena and Robin are on the same level, or how Ike and Doc/Mewtwo are on the same level.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Any videos?

www.youtube.com

 

[Fatmanonice]

Agreed, but to be fair, I did paraphrase what they said.

I believe their theory is more so that Dedede is best off played defensively, rather than offensively; essentially a 180 from what he was in Brawl. I believe Fatmanonice made a good post about this in either this or the old CCI thread.

Even so, I don't think defensive Dedede is a good character. Better, but relative to how weak he is fundamentally. The fact that his best stonewall strategy can be volleyed back to him kind of dismantles whatever competitive use it may have, in my opinion.

I did make a post about this a couple of months back. Dedede's playstyle changed the most of any of the veterans between Brawl and SSB4. A lot of Dedede's offensive options were significantly changed: the infamous chain grab was removed, his bair went from being one of the best to one of the worst, utilt lost it's kill power, Dedede-cide is much easier to escape now than in Brawl, and the Waddle Toss was replaced with the Gordo Toss which is a total duel-edge sword. Thanks to these changes, playing Dedede offensively is very risky. He lacks mobility and getting hits in depends on taking advantage of your opponents mistakes. He still has one of the best shield grabs in the game, good reach, and can kill fairly early compared to most of the cast but it's very easy for him to be overwhelmed. The only good aspect of his that was retained from Brawl is his offstage game and even then there are characters like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer that can do what he does offstage but better.

I can see what they envisioned for Dedede but it didn't really work out. I feel they wanted him to be a defensive tank but there are various aspects about him that kind of sabotage that. The Gordo is a prime example, seeing how it's one of the few projectiles in the game that every character single character can reflect. The problem with this is that it hits hard. The attack, has a 2% threshold so most people's jabs will send it right back. Seeing how slow and big Dedede is, this is definitely a problem because it's hard for him to get out of the way of his own attack. What's worse is that the reflected gordos do at least 15% and a bit of shield damage too, making Dedede all the more of a sitting duck.

Defensively, it's not hard to get past Dedede's tactics. He can easily be overwhelmed by projectile heavy characters and fast characters. Dedede's has virtually no approach options so going in on your opponent is just asking for trouble. Like I said, his grab options are pretty great and he can hit like a truck but it's not enough. I feel like if the gordos' reflect threshold was higher and a reliable kill throw that Dedede would be a defensive monster but it's just too easy for Dedede's strategies to fall apart. Aside from Little Mac and Bowser Jr, I'd consider him to be one of the bigger "noob slayers" of this game in that he's only hard to deal with if 1. you don't know the match up and 2. don't know how to deal with their glaring weaknesses.

 

[Pazzo.]

www.youtube.com

Your help is astounding.

 

[FullMoon]

I mean it's not like it's hard to search for "Songun G&W" on youtube.

 

[Jucchan]

You might have to search "Songn" instead of "Songun" for the more recent videos, they changed the romanization of his name.

 

[Vipermoon]

The biggest issue with that tier list is Shulk. He should be in the last tier. I don't why he was placed that high. We agreed Shulk was booty many times in this thread.

Edit: DH and M2 should be 1 or 2 tiers lower.

 

[MistressRemilia]

The biggest issue with that tier list is Shulk. He should be in the last tier. I don't why he was placed that high. We agreed Shulk was booty many times in this thread.

Edit: DH and M2 should be 1 or 2 tiers lower.

Tbh Japan works in a way that DH is a more effective character.
Even " rushdown " charas over there aren't as big of a deal for zoners because their rushdown is not our rushdown ( to put it simply, it's kind of hard to describe but you get the idea ) . He also has a very good representation over there.
The character in itself is pretty alright imo, flawed in some ways, but definitly alright.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Apart from Lucas being too low and Shulk being too high, that list is perfect. I think it might be one of the best tier list created so far.

 

[G. Stache]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-
Thoughts?

Just a few things, I'd bring Bowser Jr, Doc, and M2 down to C+. They're simply not good enough to warrant a space into B- just yet. Maybe a few patches will change that. I don't think Lucas is garbage tier, B- would suffice, but at the same time not a lot of people use Lucas so maybe just bring up at least one tier for now. Also, the day G&W becomes B+ material is the day Little Mac sprouts wings out of his arse and gains an air game. Send him down. Just a few more niggles: Pit and Dark Pit aren't in the same tier...what? Shulk is trash, please send him to C-. Ike should probably move up just a bit, Robin could probably move up and Jigglypuff should be in a tier of her own...I was thinking D-. Anyways, besides the tiny niggles this is actually a very accurate list, especially compared to what I've seen in the past (and certainly a better one than what I could make). Keep up the good work.