Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Vyrnx]

That's alright. I won't make the mistake again.
I actually really just wanted general competitive impressions of WFT, like, "this character is mid tier because..." , not detailed analysis though.
I appreciated your second post ghostbone.

 

[Trifroze]

Samus makes me sad, such an interesting design and so many tools to work with, but at the same time flawed in some very crucial areas. She was clearly designed to be a long range fighter with her charge shot and missiles given how she has a dysfunctional jab by design and how her close range ftilt was modified to essentially not do anything at close range. Add a terrible grab and some very unfortunate rolls, and her amazing long range projectile game now has justification. Except she doesn't have an amazing long range projectile game. Both missile variations are laggy, easy to avoid and don't lead to any follow ups, and bombs are literally impossible to hit anyone with, they should literally do like 25% damage based on how difficult it is to do anything with them.

You're basically left with a relatively slow and floaty character with some very good mid range and aerial options. A fairly contradicting and awkward gameplan, but works once you get something started.

 

[TDK]

Samus makes me sad, such an interesting design and so many tools to work with, but at the same time flawed in some very crucial areas. She was clearly designed to be a long range fighter with her charge shot and missiles given how she has a dysfunctional jab by design and how her close range ftilt was modified to essentially not do anything at close range. Add a terrible grab and some very unfortunate rolls, and her amazing long range projectile game now has justification. Except she doesn't have an amazing long range projectile game. Both missile variations are laggy, easy to avoid and don't lead to any follow ups, and bombs are literally impossible to hit anyone with, they should literally do like 25% damage based on how difficult it is to do anything with them.

You're basically left with a relatively slow and floaty character with some very good mid range and aerial options. A fairly contradicting and awkward gameplan, but works once you get something started.

Most of the "bottom tiers" have interesting designs that could be extremely powerful, with poor execution and extremely crippling flaws. Zelda, for instance, has one of the best OoS and Punish games at close range, but has extreme difficulty approaching and can't force approaches, so she ends up as a "bad character" because of it. Disappointing, huh?

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus makes me sad, such an interesting design and so many tools to work with, but at the same time flawed in some very crucial areas. She was clearly designed to be a long range fighter with her charge shot and missiles given how she has a dysfunctional jab by design and how her close range ftilt was modified to essentially not do anything at close range. Add a terrible grab and some very unfortunate rolls, and her amazing long range projectile game now has justification. Except she doesn't have an amazing long range projectile game. Both missile variations are laggy, easy to avoid and don't lead to any follow ups, and bombs are literally impossible to hit anyone with, they should literally do like 25% damage based on how difficult it is to do anything with them.

You're basically left with a relatively slow and floaty character with some very good mid range and aerial options. A fairly contradicting and awkward gameplan, but works once you get something started.

I was going to not post but I have to bite with Samus, she's so fun to talk about.

Her play style changed in this game. She wasn't designed to fight long range or close range. She's meant to excel at midrange, combos, and tech chases.

The most interesting design change Samus underwent in the transition to Smash 4 was the new emphasis on tech chases. It explains a lot of her changes, like the new nair, the new speed/damage/knockback of CS, and the weak smash attacks, such as dsmash. Samus has moves that setup tech chases at all percents, 0-150+. Depending on what you count Samus has between 5-8 moves that setup tech chases, and all of them work at different percents.

The design team opted to force high level Samus to get kills with CS tech chases. CS is one of the best tech chases in the game because of its speed (not too fast, not too slow), which covers almost any form of get up. Her midrange game is strong in this game, definitely her best range, between ftilt, which has the best range of any tilt in the game (possibly tied with DDD's fitlt), dtilt, a stupidly disjointed frame 6 move with great range and 12 damage, PP utilt, which sets up crazy combos from missed techs, and of course zair.

Personally I almost never use missiles, using midrange instead to try to get combo and tech chase opportunities. I don't think Samus was designed to do long range in this game and it's a source of frustration for many when they play this way.

Her advantage state is very good, her neutral is alright, but her disadvantage... Ugh.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Most of the "bottom tiers" have interesting designs that could be extremely powerful, with poor execution and extremely crippling flaws. Zelda, for instance, has one of the best OoS and Punish games at close range, but has extreme difficulty approaching and can't force approaches, so she ends up as a "bad character" because of it. Disappointing, huh?

This touches a bit on my impression of Mewtwo. I didn't realize so many people were down on him, even to the point of debating whether he's bottom 3 in the game. Mewtwo differs greatly from characters like Zelda and Samus because, in my opinion, his offensive options are not dysfunctional. They're actually quite strong. He's got a great projectile, damaging throws, a quick Dsmash, a Dtilt that can set up combos, and several kill moves. His Fair hitbox seems wonky at first glance, because it doesn't hit with the purple trail, but once you get used to it, it's a strong move (I've had trouble because I switch between Mewtwo and Ganon, and I have to start Ganon's Fair about 24 hours earlier than Mewtwo's for it to land), His recovery is near-impossible to gimp, and his air dodge is possibly the best among the cast. He also has a reflector that can act a an extra jump.

The elephant in the room is Mewtwo's weight, or lack thereof, but the fact that he's actually a legitimate threat keeps him, in my opinion, at least at mid-tier. I look at a character like Zelda, who can't put pressure on you, or Jiggs, who loses every trade, and their problem is that you never have to really be afraid of them (barring Rest, I suppose, but it's Jiggs' only real threat). Mewtwo, for all his faults, actually has the firepower to flex on you if you're not careful. One might debate whether the glass portion of Mewtwo is too fragile, but the cannon part is quite real.

 

[TDK]

This touches a bit on my impression of Mewtwo. I didn't realize so many people were down on him, even to the point of debating whether he's bottom 3 in the game. Mewtwo differs greatly from characters like Zelda and Samus because, in my opinion, his offensive options are not dysfunctional. They're actually quite strong. He's got a great projectile, damaging throws, a quick Dsmash, a Dtilt that can set up combos, and several kill moves. His Fair hitbox seems wonky at first glance, because it doesn't hit with the purple trail, but once you get used to it, it's a strong move (I've had trouble because I switch between Mewtwo and Ganon, and I have to start Ganon's Fair about 24 hours earlier than Mewtwo's for it to land), His recovery is near-impossible to gimp, and his air dodge is possibly the best among the cast. He also has a reflector that can act a an extra jump.

The elephant in the room is Mewtwo's weight, or lack thereof, but the fact that he's actually a legitimate threat keeps him, in my opinion, at least at mid-tier. I look at a character like Zelda, who can't put pressure on you, or Jiggs, who loses every trade, and their problem is that you never have to really be afraid of them (barring Rest, I suppose, but it's Jiggs' only real threat). Mewtwo, for all his faults, actually has the firepower to flex on you if you're not careful. One might debate whether the glass portion of Mewtwo is too fragile, but the cannon part is quite real.

My largest concern with Mewtwo is the fact that Rosalina [and Luma] improves on the "Tall & Light" archetype in every way. Rosalina is shorter than Mewtwo, heavier than Mewtwo, and kills even earlier than Mewtwo with Upsmash and Up Air. As it is, a lightweight Mewtwo would be fine if Mewtwo wasn't so darn tall. Jiggs, who again, kills earlier that Mewtwo, but is tiny, so you don't have to worry about being combo'd as much as Mewtwo. Mewtwo also loses almost every trade to almost every character [Jigglypuff is the only exception] Mewtwo's Up throw doesn't start reliably killing until 120% [as opposed to Melee, where its power is comparable to SSB4 Ness's back throw] removing one of its best KO options, though Up throw is still rather solid. FSmash actually fails to hit an opponent at point-blank range, and Upsmash had some of the hitboxes that pulled you into it removed. In my own personal list, I have Mewtwo at 50th due to some weird blindspots, tall frame, and extremely light weight. While there are worse characters, like Palutena and Samus for instance, there are many, many better characters.

 

[Rizen]

This touches a bit on my impression of Mewtwo. a quick Dsmash,

I'm wondering why people like his Dsmash? It starts frame 21 and only hits on 1 side.

 

[wedl!!]

If you don't like M2 Dsmash you don't know how to play footsies with him.

Move is essentially safe on shield and has a big hitbox+lots of damage. It's really similar to MK Fsmash on a character who stays stationary.

 

[Rizen]

If you don't like M2 Dsmash you don't know how to play footsies with him.

I admit I don't but that isn't very helpful. A frame 21 smash is terrible. How can Mewtwo use it effectively?

 

[Browny]

My largest concern with Mewtwo is the fact that Rosalina [and Luma] improves on the "Tall & Light" archetype in every way. Rosalina is shorter than Mewtwo, heavier than Mewtwo, and kills even earlier than Mewtwo with Upsmash and Up Air. As it is, a lightweight Mewtwo would be fine if Mewtwo wasn't so darn tall. Jiggs, who again, kills earlier that Mewtwo, but is tiny, so you don't have to worry about being combo'd as much as Mewtwo. Mewtwo also loses almost every trade to almost every character [Jigglypuff is the only exception] Mewtwo's Up throw doesn't start reliably killing until 120% [as opposed to Melee, where its power is comparable to SSB4 Ness's back throw] removing one of its best KO options, though Up throw is still rather solid. FSmash actually fails to hit an opponent at point-blank range, and Upsmash had some of the hitboxes that pulled you into it removed. In my own personal list, I have Mewtwo at 50th due to some weird blindspots, tall frame, and extremely light weight. While there are worse characters, like Palutena and Samus for instance, there are many, many better characters.

ur making me cry m8, plz dont

Jigglypuff is in no way killing earlier than Mewtwo outside of rest and even STILL, Mewtwo can kill earlier with the right stage positioning and a shadowball or disable-dsmash. Once you take rest out of the picture, nothing she has kills earlier than mewtwos... well theres too many to name, even a dair on stage will kill earlier than her fsmash on some characters.

"Mewtwo loses almost every trade to every character"

What on earth are you on about. I see you arent familiar with shadowball. Mewtwo doesnt trade, he just straight outranges you. In the same way that marth doesnt trade.

Mewtwos uthrow kills earlier than any other uthrow in the game by a significant margin and I will never stop until everyone on this forum knows this.
http://gfycat.com/NecessaryBlissfulGrizzlybear

With rage, it builds up fast. I've KO'd WFT from about 104% before on FD at like, 100% rage. There are even certain characters that his uthrow will KILL EARLIER THAN NESS' BTHROW from centre stage. But alas... no one seems to know this.

 

[TDK]

I admit I don't but that isn't very helpful. A frame 21 smash is terrible. How can Mewtwo use it effectively?

It's better than his other smashes by a sizeable margin.

ur making me cry m8, plz dont

Jigglypuff is in no way killing earlier than Mewtwo outside of rest and even STILL, Mewtwo can kill earlier with the right stage positioning and a shadowball or disable-dsmash. Once you take rest out of the picture, nothing she has kills earlier than mewtwos... well theres too many to name, even a dair on stage will kill earlier than her fsmash on some characters.

"Mewtwo loses almost every trade to every character"

What on earth are you on about. I see you arent familiar with shadowball. Mewtwo doesnt trade, he just straight outranges you. In the same way that marth doesnt trade.

Mewtwos uthrow kills earlier than any other uthrow in the game by a significant margin and I will never stop until everyone on this forum knows this.
http://gfycat.com/NecessaryBlissfulGrizzlybear

With rage, it builds up fast. I've KO'd WFT from about 104% before on FD at like, 100% rage. There are even certain characters that his uthrow will KILL EARLIER THAN NESS' BTHROW from centre stage. But alas... no one seems to know this.

You're right on the first two, but I will have to disagree with you on the upthrow. While Upthrow will kill earlier from Ness's Bthrow in centre stage, Ness's Bthrow kills much earlier [20% earlier] from the sides of the stage, and Ness has easy ways to combo into his backthrow, as well as better combos in general.

On another note, the nice part about SSB4 is that since almost every character has mains that frequent this forum, there's always an informed opinion.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I admit I don't but that isn't very helpful. A frame 21 smash is terrible. How can Mewtwo use it effectively?

Very little cool down. It's good for hunting for rolls/get up options and such since it's pretty safe. Also to bait reactions.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Wii Fit trainer has early throw combos from u-throw > uair on fastfallers

So we just had a discussion about well-rounded characters like Mario and Pit, and I brought up USF4's Juri. I'm getting the same vibe from WFT as Juri: a lot of OK-ish attributes that should exploit whatever her opponent's weakest to.

WFT's dair spike is OK: decent hitbox, decent air mobility for positioning, etc., but with startup so slow it's like it's only designed to catch particularly susceptible recoveries like Olimar's, DHD's, and Villager's.

WFT's projectiles ain't bad, but she won't win projectile wars. But for slow heavies that can't deal with zoning they get the job done.

WFT's combos are iffy, but for fastfallers who are particularly susceptible to combos, hers puts in the work.

WFT's CQC game lacks the range to make it easy to apply against a lot of chars, but hits fairly hard, so I'm guessing there's a class of opponents it'll work on.

etc.

 

[Vipermoon]

Congrats everyone on helping us get to the 300th page.

 

[⑨ball]

...Who said Wii Fit was top 15?

Zero.

But he plays Anti all the time so his opinions are bound to be biased as they know how each other plays.

That's alright. I won't make the mistake again.
I actually really just wanted general competitive impressions of WFT, like, "this character is mid tier because..." , not detailed analysis though.

Wii Fit Trainer is thought of as mid tier because she has relatively strong states in disadvantage and advantage, while lacking a neutral that lets her readily impose her will.

Simple enough?

 

[Rizen]

Very little cool down. It's good for hunting for rolls/get up options and such since it's pretty safe. Also to bait reactions.

Okay thanks. So it's sort of like Ganon's Usmash in that sense.

 

[bc1910]

ZeRo saying it makes me even less inclined to believe it, gotta be honest. At best I'm indifferent. The bias is strong with that one.

But without getting into all that, I want to mention ZeRo at least pockets any character he actually thinks is worth using (Pika, ZSS, Falcon, Luigi, freakin' Roy) and I usually use that to judge who he really thinks is good. You realise he's labelled over half the cast as "top 15" or "high tier" at this point? His videos make his list insanely top heavy. For Wii Fit to be in that group, which must be approaching 30 characters, doesn't mean much. Seriously, the only character I can recall him saying is bad recently is Bowser.

ZeRo plays to win. His actions speak much louder than his words. He'll say characters are good yet competitively he still won't touch them with a barge pole. That says a lot more to me than his throwaway comments.

EDIT: Genuinely don't want to bash the guy so took a chunk out.

 

[TDK]

ZeRo saying it makes me even less inclined to believe it, gotta be honest.

The bias is strong with that one.

No but really, don't mean to bash him, but that's how I feel. His opinions are all based around who he loses to or who he nearly loses to. Which, yes, surely forms the basis of a lot of our opinions, but he doesn't seem to look outside his own experiences and it's a very narrow viewpoint. Hence why he claims Pikachu is 2nd in the game.

Not to mention ZeRo at least pockets any character he actually thinks is worth using (he pockets Pika, ZSS, Falcon, Luigi, freakin' Roy) and I usually use that to judge who he actually thinks is good. You realise he's labelled over half the cast as "top 15" or "high tier" at this point? His videos make his list insanely top heavy. The only character I can recall him really saying is bad recently is Bowser.

He'll say characters are good yet competitively he still won't touch them with a barge pole. That says a lot more to me than his throwaway comments.

What about Peach? ZeRo has called Peach top tier, yet he doesn't play her. However, Peach has arguably the highest learning curve in the game, so I'm not sure what to think about it. True, he won't touch Peach, but maybe he just can't play her well enough?

 

[bc1910]

What about Peach? ZeRo has called Peach top tier, yet he doesn't play her. However, Peach has arguably the highest learning curve in the game, so I'm not sure what to think about it. True, he won't touch Peach, but maybe he just can't play her well enough?

Yeah I mean, he's called Roy top tier. He throws those two words around with gay abandon. He's calmed down on that front with Roy recently but I think he still believes Roy is the best swordsman and at least still pockets him. Peach is tricky but I don't think her learning curve is too steep for ZeRo. I'm sure he thinks Peach is good, like most of us, but if he thought Peach was truly special I do think he'd be using her, yes.

 

[TDK]

Yeah I mean, he's called Roy top tier. He throws those two words around with gay abandon. He's calmed down on that front with Roy recently but I think he still believes Roy is the best swordsman and at least still pockets him. Peach is tricky but I don't think her learning curve is too steep for ZeRo. I'm sure he thinks Peach is good, like most of us, but if he thought Peach was truly special I do think he'd be using her, yes.

I don't agree with Roy being best swordfighter. That goes to Ike, in my opinion. [though roy is close, I've actually only got Roy 1 spot behind Ike on my list, and they're both in top 20] We can all agree Peach is good, the real question it: HOW good? I agree with ZeRo in one regard though; Peach is a top tier character, at least in theory. Her extreme learning curve and lack of representation hold her back though, so we've yet to see Peach's true potential. I predict she'll hover around 15-25 for a while until we see someone who uses her to her full potential.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

I basically forgot about Mewtwo's FSmash missing at close range because I really just use DSmash. Mewtwo doesn't really have a DSmash in a conventional sense, just two FSmashes. In any case, DSmash is pretty safe to throw out because it has very low endlag. It's rather like Ganon's Upsmash in that way, at least in my experience.

TDK I'm interested to hear why you think Roy is just behind Ike. I've played him a bit, and liked him, but that was before the shield changes, and back then his only safe on shield move was Nair. Has anything changed? I actually like Roy a lot. His recovery is alarmingly bad, and I can't figure out the design intent behind that choice. On the other hand, Flare Blade has incredibly little cool down time. It shocks me every time I use it. Seems to surprise opponents as well, as you'd think a two handed overhead sword swing would be the kind of move that Roy would pay for for just throwing out there and whiffing. I've actually been able to use it in the air and recover via Blazer without much trouble, which is remarkable given Roy's fallspeed and how limited his recovery is. But I thought that he had trouble playing as a rushdown character because of his lack of safe approaches (though I had some luck with Dancing Blade, oddly enough). Was I playing him wrong? Was I spoiled by Captain Falcon's absurd dashgrab?

 

[TDK]

TDK I'm interested to hear why you think Roy is just behind Ike. I've played him a bit, and liked him, but that was before the shield changes, and back then his only safe on shield move was Nair. Has anything changed? I actually like Roy a lot. His recovery is alarmingly bad, and I can't figure out the design intent behind that choice. On the other hand, Flare Blade has incredibly little cool down time. It shocks me every time I use it. Seems to surprise opponents as well, as you'd think a two handed overhead sword swing would be the kind of move that Roy would pay for for just throwing out there and whiffing. I've actually been able to use it in the air and recover via Blazer without much trouble, which is remarkable given Roy's fallspeed and how limited his recovery is. But I thought that he had trouble playing as a rushdown character because of his lack of safe approaches (though I had some luck with Dancing Blade, oddly enough). Was I playing him wrong? Was I spoiled by Captain Falcon's absurd dashgrab?

Well, firstly, Ike recieved tournament results recently at TBH5. With the Shield Stun changes, Ike's Fair becomes a deadly move across the board, as it is now safer on shield, auto cancellable after the hitbox comes out, and a decent kill move off the side. Ike's BAir is arguably his best move because of how quick it is in neutral, but how deadly it is, especially on the ledge trump. Also, Ike's 3-hit Jab is one of his best damage racking tools, and Jab 1 -> grab works if your opponent tries to block your Jab.

That's not to pan Roy though. From what I've found [I'm training with Roy, though trying to train myself with Marth and Roy at the same time wasn't my best idea; my Marth is pretty terrible, but my Roy's decent.] Roy, in the end, works better as a character to play footsies with, dancing around your opponent until they mess up, then punish them severely with a grab combo. Ike is slower, so with Ike, you're playing a much more patient playstyle, using moves like NAir and FAir to wall out your opponent until kill %s and finishing them off with a FAir, Up air, Back Air, or Eruption as an edge-guarder. Both of them can have no trouble killing or a lot of trouble killing, due to Roy's sourspot and the fact that Ike's best finishers are largely commital outside of BAir.

I think Ike edges out Roy just a little bit due to what I mentioned above, as well as Ike's lack of a sourspot, longer range, better recovery [though not by too much], and Ike's own surprisingly quick combo game. They're both great characters, and it's nice to see marth not being the best fire emblem character for once. They're both top 20 in my opinion, [Ike's 19th, Roy's 20th] and they're both solid characters. I'm giving it to Ike for now, although it's always subject to change in the future due to balance patches.

[oh, and if you want to see my whole list, PM me]

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Well, firstly, Ike recieved tournament results recently at TBH5. With the Shield Stun changes, Ike's Fair becomes a deadly move across the board, as it is now safer on shield, auto cancellable after the hitbox comes out, and a decent kill move off the side. Ike's BAir is arguably his best move because of how quick it is in neutral, but how deadly it is, especially on the ledge trump. Also, Ike's 3-hit Jab is one of his best damage racking tools, and Jab 1 -> grab works if your opponent tries to block your Jab.

That's not to pan Roy though. From what I've found [I'm training with Roy, though trying to train myself with Marth and Roy at the same time wasn't my best idea; my Marth is pretty terrible, but my Roy's decent.] Roy, in the end, works better as a character to play footsies with, dancing around your opponent until they mess up, then punish them severely with a grab combo. Ike is slower, so with Ike, you're playing a much more patient playstyle, using moves like NAir and FAir to wall out your opponent until kill %s and finishing them off with a FAir, Up air, Back Air, or Eruption as an edge-guarder. Both of them can have no trouble killing or a lot of trouble killing, due to Roy's sourspot and the fact that Ike's best finishers are largely commital outside of BAir.

I think Ike edges out Roy just a little bit due to what I mentioned above, as well as Ike's lack of a sourspot, longer range, better recovery [though not by too much], and Ike's own surprisingly quick combo game. They're both great characters, and it's nice to see marth not being the best fire emblem character for once. They're both top 20 in my opinion, [Ike's 19th, Roy's 20th] and they're both solid characters. I'm giving it to Ike for now, although it's always subject to change in the future due to balance patches.

[oh, and if you want to see my whole list, PM me]

Thanks for the reply. I should clarify that I'm surprised that Roy is so close to Ike in your mind when the general opinion of Roy is much lower (there are frequent debates as to whether he can outperform Marth). Ike is agreed to be good, and often high-tier. Stances on Roy are decidedly more mixed. I can't really make up my mind on Roy, but I agree that Ike is the best Fire Emblem rep.

 

[Mario766]

Before this patch Ike had N-Air, F-Air, B-Air, Jab 1 and D-Tilt that were relatively safe on shield based on spacing. The patch makes these moves even harder to punish, with f-tilt now being safe when spaced and jab 1 being impossible to punish...period.

Roy isn't even close to Ike.

 

[TDK]

(there are frequent debates as to whether he can outperform Marth)

Why? Roy is a direct upgrade of Marth. He's faster, stronger, and has better damage racking and combos.

 

[Yikarur]

IIRC yoshi has a terrible neutral game though?

it's really depending on the match-up. Overall I'd say he has a pretty good neutral game. But he has generally a relatively bad match-up against characters that neutralize his neutral or force him to approach.

I'd say Diddy Kong is his worst match-up. Sheik might be the second worst match-up. I don't think Yoshi has any real "bad" Match-ups from there.
Diddy Kong is 40:60 or maybe worse, because he shuts down Yoshis neutral game pretty effective. The Yoshis still have to find a way to deal with Diddy Kong but I think we can turn that into a safe 40:60 at some point.
Sheik is probably the second worst match-up but I think it's really managable because of the risk Sheik has againt Yoshi in the course of a Game. With rage She dies from downB at 70, upsmash at 80-90, from fsmash at around 80-100 (both smashes have partially invincibility), upair (disjointed) at 90-110. The match-up is only bad because Sheiks advantage pressures Yoshi really hard and she gets so easy from neutral to advantage in this match-up. It's arround 40:60 but a worse "40:60" than Diddy Kong.

Beside of that Yoshis neutral can deal with almost everything.

anyone who says Yoshi has a terrible neutral need to re evaluate what neutral is

It's his advantage and kill set ups thats holding him back.

His advantage is one of his best aspects. In early% he has a lot of crazy combos. An easy way to secure the kill is his main problem imo. With a kill throw Yoshi would be a really strong and scary top tier.

His neutral is much better now with the shield changes

But he is in no way a "jack of all trades" or "all-rounder" character. He is very clearly unique and has several top tier attributes (air speed, jump, shield reliability) along with several bottom tier attributes (grab/combos, recovery, return to neutral options)

His "return to neutral" is probably Top5 of the game. And his recovery is in the better half as well. The problem is his mediocre grab and that he has no reliable way to get the kill.

He can't even fish for kills as safely/consistently as most characters. Even post-patch luigi is waaay safer going for reads than yoshi.

yeah Yoshi has no move to "fish" for kills. He relies on mistakes of his opponent. But Yoshis Mobility and overall safeness if played very patiently is enough to make up for that.

Yoshi's safest kill set-up is a spaced fair (and it's really only worth mentioning now as most top tiers could punish it before). All the others you mentioned are VERY unsafe to just fish for in neutral.

Spaced Fair is not really a reliable kill set-up. Because they almost automatically tech it if you hit because if you hit, it was because they pressed shield to late which results in an tech.
Yoshis uptilt is probably his best kill set-up. (true combos to upair at kill%)



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There was the biggest german smash 4 tournament last weekend.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZKJ_ZoNrtq8RLJhS8vMk_hff1E86WuWw

here is the playlist. There are still videos uploading so checking the link from time to time provides new videos. Top8 consisting of Sodrek (Fox), cyve (Diddy/Sheik), Light (Sheik/Mario), Longouw (R.O.B/Sheik), Biggad (Sheik), wusi (Fox), Clade (Fox) and Semifer (Fox/Roy) .

I got 9th with Yoshi and Mii Brawler.
but check this amazing Mii Brawler mirror match and stop claiming Helicopter Kick is too good. (you clearly see it sometimes doesn't even kill until far over 100%)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaxuL_s__gE&index=8&list=PLZKJ_ZoNrtq8RLJhS8vMk_hff1E86WuWw

 

[Wintropy]

Why? Roy is a direct upgrade of Marth. He's faster, stronger, and has better damage racking and combos.

That doesn't equate to him being a "direct upgrade", especially when Marth is several degrees of safety better than Roy when it comes to spacing and making use of his disjoint. I don't think he's any faster or stronger either, he's just a tiny bit better at playing rushdown and has a different sweetspot on his blade.

For the record, I don't think one is necessarily better than the other, and debates on this topic have become very heated in the past, so I'm just going to say I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be and drop it.

 

[Nu~]

Marth wants to keep people out, Roy wants to get in.

Why are we comparing them?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Ugh why can't more people play Peach and show her potential?
Where is Nicole? She was one of the best Peach mains in brawl.

 

[outfoxd]

Ugh why can't more people play Peach and show her potential?
Where is Nicole? She was one of the best Peach mains in brawl.

I believe i saw her at big house. She was using ZSS, and her twitter appears to confirm this.

 

[Thinkaman]

I would make Rest more canonically accurate and have it heal 15 or so % on use, so a rest kill returns you health but a whiff will still get you a hard punish thatll probably kill you or at the very least kill any gains you got from resting.

Rest healed 10% in BBrawl.

Also, Down A+B was Fake Rest, which did 1% and had non-movement IASA of only ~20 frames.

Jigglypuff lost the following tools in Smash 4:

• DACUS for away roll punish
• Aerial Rollout passing through shields
• Pound's movement
• Jab jab-locking
• Potency of dash grab

Losing DACUS hurt but isn't a deal-breaker, since Jiggs is perfectly happy to just follow you to the edge of the stage in most situations.

It wouldn't change much to restore safe Rollout and jab-locking; it's sort of a "why not" quality of life buff. (Jiggs managing a jab-lock is super rare, given her kit)

The main thing is Pound. Even though Pound now chunks a Shield for an absurd amount, it's not really useable as a risky trump card like it was in Brawl and sort of Melee.

Grab is the other big one. Jiggs has very respectable 10/10/10/10 damage throws and a strong pummel. This is the linchpin of her defensive game. Now that her dashgrab is worse, it's a lot harder to manifest this into results.


I'd start by considering restoring Pound to some of its former glory. I'd also consider lowing the landing lag on her aerials slightly, like by 2 frames. I think landing lag is normally a poor place to consider for buffs, since normally they don't address the problems people set out to solve. However, here the problem is that Jigglypuff's neutral is sabotaged by her inability to apply her aerials (aka her moveset) in many situations. Increasing Jigglypuff's ability to pressure shields safely with aerials would replace not only the utility lost from dash grab, but also make Jigglypuff care even less about people rolling away from her. (Since their defensive options at the edge of the stage become significantly worse.)

Sing is unsalvageable, as is d-tilt.

Ugh why can't more people play Peach and show her potential?
Where is Nicole? She was one of the best Peach mains in brawl.

Nicole plays ZSS in Smash 4, not Peach. Too different.

 

[HeroMystic]

Nicole has been playing ZSS for a great majority of Smash 4.

The only high level Peach mains I've seen is Slayerz, lloD, and Dark.Pch. None have been making waves.

Personally I almost never use missiles, using midrange instead to try to get combo and tech chase opportunities. I don't think Samus was designed to do long range in this game and it's a source of frustration for many when they play this way.

I believe the large problem with people misunderstanding how Samus works is she goes against the conventional wisdom of the metagame. Like how people often opt Rosalina as an "anti-meta" character, that would fit better with Samus. It's why whenever someone first trains with Samus, it downright feels like she's the worst character in the game. Everything you do with one character, you can't with her. Mostly.

And really Samus has never been a long-ranged character. Even Brawl Samus' meta was designed around using Z-air and missiles canceling as approach tools. The big difference between Brawl Samus and Smash 4 Samus is planking has been neutered and her projectiles overall have been nerfed in damage, so using them at even their most basic function (zoning) is lackluster.

The worst thing about Samus is she requires so much work to play right, but it only amounts to her being a mediocre character.

 

[Browny]

here is the playlist. There are still videos uploading so checking the link from time to time provides new videos. Top8 consisting of Sodrek (Fox), cyve (Diddy/Sheik), Light (Sheik/Mario), Longouw (R.O.B/Sheik), Biggad (Sheik), wusi (Fox), Clade (Fox) and Semifer (Fox/Roy) .

So top 8 could have gone like.



I'd be mad if that was my scene.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's better than his other smashes by a sizeable margin.

You're right on the first two, but I will have to disagree with you on the upthrow. While Upthrow will kill earlier from Ness's Bthrow in centre stage, Ness's Bthrow kills much earlier [20% earlier] from the sides of the stage, and Ness has easy ways to combo into his backthrow, as well as better combos in general.

On another note, the nice part about SSB4 is that since almost every character has mains that frequent this forum, there's always an informed opinion.

The only "combo" Ness has leading to a grab is PK Fire, and we all know how easy that is to land. Even then it's one the easiest moves to Smash DI in the game, especially for lightweight Mewtwo.

Ness doesn't combo into his grab, he just scares you into shielding with his aerials.

If we're talking use in neutral or overall usefulness then yes dsmash is the best smash, but you can't ignore usmash's amazing ability to clutch out game-winning punishes with it's great startup.

 

[Rizen]

Marth wants to keep people out, Roy wants to get in.

Why are we comparing them?

^They should costar in a sit-com that's like 'The Odd Couple'.

People are saying Ike's the best swordsman but what about MK? Ike make a splash recently but doesn't MK get good results? Would you guys say Ike>MK?

 

[meleebrawler]

^They should costar in a sit-com that's like 'The Odd Couple'.

People are saying Ike's the best swordsman but what about MK? Ike make a splash recently but doesn't MK get good results? Would you guys say Ike>MK?

I think most people are reluctant to call MK a swordsman because he really doesn't play like one at all, in terms of actively spacing with moves. Instead he's more of a brawler with omnipresent yet small disjoints on his moves that dances around his opponent with movement before closing in for the kill.

So top 8 could have gone like.



I'd be mad if that was my scene.

...So why are the Melee players upset with Smash 4 again?

 

[Yikarur]

So top 8 could have gone like.



I'd be mad if that was my scene.

hahaha cyve played Diddy Kong in 95% of his games while Longouw played ROB except for very specific match-ups.
So Top8 main chars were


too many Foxes overall though.

 

[HeroMystic]

Fox has been gaining an insane amount of popularity even in my local scene and I'm left wondering why that's the case.

 

[Ulevo]

I admit I don't but that isn't very helpful. A frame 21 smash is terrible. How can Mewtwo use it effectively?

Meta Knight's forward smash hits on frame 24 and is among the best moves in the game.

 

[warionumbah2]

If you're not an FE character you're not a swordsman apparently.