Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

it seems as if being light isnt as detrimental to a characters perceived viability in japan as compared to here. they seem to put kit first and physics next(it would theoretically explain and placement.) in particular has some truly ******** things within his kit. upb is ****ing amazing for everything except recovering and starting combos. oos, beating ****, ending combos(the sweetspot range is actually very big; his hand expands in size and its disjointed), edgeguarding, whatever it is upb is probably good at.
based on kit alone is probably upper mid. then you throw in garbage physics and he drops considerably. its simple.

I'm getting kind of tired hearing you throw around physics as this vague term for describing you don't like how Mewtwo feels.
There's only two truly detrimental parts about his attributes (besides weight): poor air acceleration (that is compensated by a myriad of movement options) and a tumble that exposes Mewtwo's tail to attack. Poor initial dash is annoying but Mewtwo is seldom rushing his opponent anyway, and below average ledge getups can be overcome with proper use of ledge-drop, or taking a cue from Ness and attacking people waiting for Mewtwo to grab.

By comparison we have Ryu whose movement speed is average at best and has even worse air acceleration, with only Focus Attack to truly change his momentum. Still doesn't stop HIS kit from making him one of the best.

Poor survivability due to his tumble and low weight and a vulnerability up close do keep him from rising higher than mid but in no way do they actually stop him from playing his game.

The biggest issue with that tier list is Shulk. He should be in the last tier. I don't why he was placed that high. We agreed Shulk was booty many times in this thread.

Edit: DH and M2 should be 1 or 2 tiers lower.

Well to be fair that discussion happened RIGHT before 1.1.1 which made Shulk's moves somewhat better via shieldstun (especially Buster, and giving Shield a small niche in that regard). Not that he rose drastically, but...

 

[DunnoBro]

Tbh Japan works in a way that DH is a more effective character.
Even " rushdown " charas over there aren't as big of a deal for zoners because their rushdown is not our rushdown ( to put it simply, it's kind of hard to describe but you get the idea ) . He also has a very good representation over there.
The character in itself is pretty alright imo, flawed in some ways, but definitly alright.

What representation...? There's brood and yusan but they don't really accomplish anything. I wouldn't call that "very good representation" so much as just acknowledging he has some.

All recent footage of them I can find are them losing (fairly early on too)

Rain's placing is about right for him though. It's ike/dk that are out of place.

 

[Samexnyhi]

I thought the last patches helped WFT a lot. Isn't she too low ? (Another question , are Falco and Marth that bad ?)

 

[A2ZOMG]

By comparison we have Ryu whose movement speed is average at best and has even worse air acceleration, with only Focus Attack to truly change his momentum. Still doesn't stop HIS kit from making him one of the best.

Average at best?

Ryu has about the same run speed as Mario and the same top air speed as G&W. He's by far one of the more inherently mobile characters. The top air speed especially is a huge reason why he's a threat given how easily he can convert an aerial hit and cover a lot of distance when jumping.

Also in other news, a Dr. Mario by the name of 2ManyCooks tied for 7th in a nearly 150 man multi-regional event. Took a game off M2K's Rosalina.
http://tcegcon2015.challonge.com/S4T32TCEG2015

 

[Fatmanonice]

I thought the last patches helped WFT a lot. Isn't she too low ? (Another question , are Falco and Marth that bad ?)

I think WFT is ranked too low there too. Anti's showing of the character at Big House showed that the character can do a lot in the right hands. The character has a lot of tools but is currently going through growing pains because nearly all their weaknesses were addressed in the last major patch. The character is now extremely balanced but a big part of the issue is that not a lot of people have taken her up. Her and Paultena were pretty much the Custom Queens before the sweeping ban of customs so I don't think a lot of people have adjusted to just regular WFT now that the character is actually pretty competent. The character is like a combination of Mario and Sheik in a lot of ways but doesn't excel on the same levels that they do. The character is slightly outclassed in that regard but has enough going for it now that it will likely become better with time.

 

[BSP]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

I'm not sure what separates the B+ characters from Ike. Outside of that and Lucas being questionably low, it's a good list. The top 4 are most likely to take (inter)nationals, A can be expected to fill top 8-16, and B+ will have some representation in top 32 .

Edit: DP and Pit separation doesn't make much sense to me, but w/e

 

[Smog Frog]

i'm using physics as a broad term to cover things such as:
weight, aerial mobility(broad term for speed, accel, and decel), falling speed, gravity, grounded movement(initial dash speed, skid animation, initial dash length,walk speed and top dash speed), and generally everything outside of actual moves that may help or hurt a character.

on physics, scores like this:
weight: straight ass
aerial mobility: ok(without considering ways of changing it)
falling speed: average(barely slower than ). gravity is unknown
grounded movement: below average(average walking speed, above average running, average initial dash, **** skid animation)
frame: bad(barely taller than )
misc: bad(hurt animation in particular)

examples of good physics include and.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth could be (but probably isn't) that bad. He's probably (hopefully) around the tier above that.

 

[meleebrawler]

Average at best?

Ryu has about the same run speed as Mario and the same top air speed as G&W. He's by far one of the more inherently mobile characters. The top air speed especially is a huge reason why he's a threat given how easily he can convert an aerial hit and cover a lot of distance when jumping.

I'll admit that I was mostly thinking in terms of disadvantage. In neutral Ryu can mitigate acceleration issues with short hops giving him good burst options, but he does not like being high in the air at all for ANY reason because the opponent has fewer things to watch out for when catching Ryu compared to others.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You guys all underrate Shulk quite a bit though. Yeah, fast rushdown character kinda stuff him but there aren't that many characters that workd that way. He can handle just about every other matchup just fine, especially the other swordsmen.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'll admit that I was mostly thinking in terms of disadvantage. In neutral Ryu can mitigate acceleration issues with short hops giving him good burst options, but he does not like being high in the air at all for ANY reason because the opponent has fewer things to watch out for when catching Ryu compared to others.

Ryu's disadvantage state is great until you pit him against Rosaluma, honestly. Yeah Rosaluma bodies his landing options kinda for free, but Ryu has a lot of fast aerials with giant hitboxes, and he can change his momentum with FA and B reverse Hadokens, both quite useful.

Even though his airdodge isn't great, he also has one of few truly invincible reversals in this game.

 

[Pazzo.]

I mean it's not like it's hard to search for "Songun G&W" on youtube.

That's not the point. I was wondering if there are any specific videos that he knew of, so I didn't have to comb through YouTube.

Just posting a YouTube link is a little condescending.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Kirby seems a bit too low; I am well aware he's not very good, but I do still think he has enough tools to place him in C+.

Lucas being at the bottom is just silly, Ike seems too low, and seeing Wii Fit and Robin in the same tier as Bowser, Palutena and King Dedede also seems rather questionable. Everything else seems spot on; I wouldn't know much about Mewtwo's spot.

Oh yeah, and Pit and DP should be in the same tier.

 

[Illuminose]

I'd just like to point out that they said their tier list isn't ordered.

I would put Pikachu in A+, Dedede/Doc lower, and Wii Fit higher. Otherwise I don't really have any grievances with that tier list; it's good.

 

[Mario766]

You guys all underrate Shulk quite a bit though. Yeah, fast rushdown character kinda stuff him but there aren't that many characters that workd that way. He can handle just about every other matchup just fine, especially the other swordsmen.

He doesn't handle MUs better than Ike or MK though. He might 'have potentional' but he doesn't have the reward on hit nor the frame data to back it up. Shulk gets a hit and doesn't get anything after, his advantage state isn't amazing because besides Buster he doesn't get strings outside of very precise damage timing early strings for 2 hits at max, unless they don't DI properly. His arts make him better, but his basic kit isn't good enough to back it up.

 

[meleebrawler]

You guys all underrate Shulk quite a bit though. Yeah, fast rushdown character kinda stuff him but there aren't that many characters that workd that way. He can handle just about every other matchup just fine, especially the other swordsmen.

Can kinda say the same for Mewtwo. Rushdowns are the most apt at exploiting Mewtwo's weaknesses and the fact that most of them are top hinders him, but he is more than capable of handling anyone else.

i'm using physics as a broad term to cover things such as:
weight, aerial mobility(broad term for speed, accel, and decel), falling speed, gravity, grounded movement(initial dash speed, skid animation, initial dash length,walk speed and top dash speed), and generally everything outside of actual moves that may help or hurt a character.

on physics, scores like this:
weight: straight ***
aerial mobility: ok(without considering ways of changing it)
falling speed: average(barely slower than ). gravity is unknown
grounded movement: below average(average walking speed, above average running, average initial dash, **** skid animation)
frame: bad(barely taller than )
misc: bad(hurt animation in particular)

Well then with this and his kit in mind it seems his position on Rain's list is quite accurate. He has all the tools he needs to keep the opponent from exploiting these.

examples of good physics include and.

Well then with this in mind Mewtwo's position on Rain's list is quite accurate. He has all the tools he needs to keep the opponent from exploiting these, he just suffers more than most for failing to do so. This post sums it up nicely:

This touches a bit on my impression of Mewtwo. I didn't realize so many people were down on him, even to the point of debating whether he's bottom 3 in the game. Mewtwo differs greatly from characters like Zelda and Samus because, in my opinion, his offensive options are not dysfunctional. They're actually quite strong. He's got a great projectile, damaging throws, a quick Dsmash, a Dtilt that can set up combos, and several kill moves. His Fair hitbox seems wonky at first glance, because it doesn't hit with the purple trail, but once you get used to it, it's a strong move (I've had trouble because I switch between Mewtwo and Ganon, and I have to start Ganon's Fair about 24 hours earlier than Mewtwo's for it to land), His recovery is near-impossible to gimp, and his air dodge is possibly the best among the cast. He also has a reflector that can act a an extra jump.

The elephant in the room is Mewtwo's weight, or lack thereof, but the fact that he's actually a legitimate threat keeps him, in my opinion, at least at mid-tier. I look at a character like Zelda, who can't put pressure on you, or Jiggs, who loses every trade, and their problem is that you never have to really be afraid of them (barring Rest, I suppose, but it's Jiggs' only real threat). Mewtwo, for all his faults, actually has the firepower to flex on you if you're not careful. One might debate whether the glass portion of Mewtwo is too fragile, but the cannon part is quite real.

Point is, Mewtwo's issues hold him back, but they don't STOP him. Putting him near or at rock bottom implies that Mewtwo's design just doesn't work at all, and that really isn't true.

 

[Nobie]

Average at best?

Ryu has about the same run speed as Mario and the same top air speed as G&W. He's by far one of the more inherently mobile characters. The top air speed especially is a huge reason why he's a threat given how easily he can convert an aerial hit and cover a lot of distance when jumping.

Also in other news, a Dr. Mario by the name of 2ManyCooks tied for 7th in a nearly 150 man multi-regional event. Took a game off M2K's Rosalina.
http://tcegcon2015.challonge.com/S4T32TCEG2015

Mewtwo has higher top run speed and higher top air speed than Ryu, so championing Ryu's physics and poopoo-ing Mewtwo's is kind of weird, is the point I think he was trying to make.

Mostly when people say, "I don't like Mewtwo's physics" I think it just refers to how dangerous it is to get hit. That fear of punishment changes the way one plays the game. Ryu in contrast is very heavy.

 

[NegaNixx]

So I've been thinking this for a while and the tier list serves as a good enough reason to.

I think that the Japanese in Smash4 are the European in Melee equivalent, by this I mean that they play generally to optimize as opposed to NA who generally play to extremes (Conservative/Aggressive). There are outliers of course as well as things we can't compare (Esam's Pikachu, Ranai's Villager) so NA does better when the optimization lies in those extremes than Japan does and the differences in our impressions are based on this as well as those outliers.

I don't know just something I was thinking about.

 

[Wintropy]

Dark Pit should be in the same tier as Pit. But you knew that.

To be honest, I'm a bit disconcerted by the comments that "X is too high", etc, as though it's an objective fact that this character is better than that character, when Japan is known to have a very different meta to the US. It isn't unreasonable to expect that their tier list is going to differ from the US.

There's definitely hints of experiential bias there too, i.e. Pit being A- as opposed to B+ probably has Earth to thank, Donkey Kong isn't that popular or optimised in the Japanese meta (I think? I may be totally incorrect on that) so he is mid-tier rather than upper-mid or high, and so on.

Very solid tier list in my opinion, but I don't think we should be so quick to criticise it when they play a different meta. Japan has a very different concept of certain noteworthy characters than other regions.

 

[Mario766]

Ike in Japan being B- makes sense. The only Ike I know of in Japan is Noji, who I watched play at 9B's smashfests, he's pretty good able to keep up with 9B's Ryu/Kei's Brawler. Ike might make a splash in Japan but I doubt it, until then low-mid in Japan doesn't sound bad.

 

[Neutricity]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

I think the Pits are overrated, but that's just me. Ike and Roy are underrated but Japan has different results and opinions.

 

[Yikarur]

Rains Tier list is close to perfect in my opinion. And Pit is obviously one tier higher than Dark Pit.
Ike is one tier too low PROBABLY. But not sure. He has some really bad match-ups.

 

[Wintropy]

And Pit is obviously one tier higher than Dark Pit.

You're going to have to explain that.

Except for results, Dark Pit doesn't distinguish himself from Pit in any noteworthy way.

 

[wedl!!]

So why exactly would identical characters be a tier apart?

 

[ARGHETH]

So why exactly would identical characters be a tier apart?

Because Pit only uses arrows. Obviously.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Rain's tier list looks ****ing ridiculous. The tiers are extremely broad.

There is no way kirby is bottom tier.
I also disagree with the Megaman placement. I think it should be lower.

 

[san.]

Ike in Japan being B- makes sense. The only Ike I know of in Japan is Noji, who I watched play at 9B's smashfests, he's pretty good able to keep up with 9B's Ryu/Kei's Brawler. Ike might make a splash in Japan but I doubt it, until then low-mid in Japan doesn't sound bad.

I agree with this. Ike's tools themselves are pretty decent overall. It depends on how much you weigh Ike getting combo'd vs. how many hits he can purely tank.

 

[Planty]

I disagree with Rosalina being A+. A tier is fine though. Sonic is also questionable next to Sheik and ZSS, but I don't know enough on him to bring him down. However, back to Rosalina, she just loses to so many top and high tier characters for her to be among the likes of Sheik, the character with no bad matchups and ZSS, the character who just ignores your %.

In a sense, Rosalina kinda reminds me of prepatch Luigi. He would basically destroy a large portion of the cast, but against the better part of the cast, his numerous weaknesses just start getting abused. As a result, he was left in the lower ends of top 10, but away from top 5.

 

[thehard]

Pro-tip: Explain why you disagree with the tier list placements rather than just saying "X should be higher, why are W and Y in the same tier, remove Z from the list entirely". Rain's not looking for feedback on how to "improve" his tier list.

Think of why a character is placed where they are, rather than where you think they should be.

(Obv not directed toward all of you)

 

[wedl!!]

Rosa still does well against the good characters (barring ) and destroys most of the cast (especially , and if we're still talking the good characters). Luigi was a counterpick character to , and primarily, and did poorly against the Bash Sisters and some random characters but still dominated mid-level play.

Rosa and Luigi are both polarized, extremely silly characters, but Rosalina is still less exploitable.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Frankly I think it's a bit ridiculous for mid-level players to be commenting on the accuracy of a tier list for a country some ~5,000-6,000 miles away. An important part of tier placement is results, and if Lucas or whoever has no results compared to his tier peers in Japan's scene, they have absolutely no reason to put him any higher than he is, and vica versa with other characters. Theorycraft doesn't get you very far.

If Zelda started winning regionals somehow it'd make sense for her to climb on everyone's tier lists even with the same kit.

 

[Trifroze]

If a character using a sword for their normals doesn't make them a swordsman but a zoning focused playstyle with a sword does and therefore MK, Links, Swordfighter and Pits (?) are denied this title, you're either claiming that those characters don't use a sword or that they don't zone with their swords enough. At which point does a character's sword zoning become frequent enough that they go from being characters with swords into swordsmen? This is an arbitrary definition. Ike relies on punishes and grabs almost as much as MK does and Robin zones with her sword barely more than either Link or Toon Link. We'll end up with Marth being the only swordsman eventually and then he can finally be the best at it.

 

[Blobface]

I'm a bit surprised at Ganon's placement. I can't imagine Japan not having Ganon rep seeing as they have Gungnir, unarguably one of the best Ganon's and quite possibly the best period. I've heard he hasn't gone to many tournaments though, and even then, Vermanubis and Ray_Kalm may have surpassed him at some point. Does Japan have any tourney-heavy Ganon's? A2ZOMG

As for the character himself, Ganon has his issues, but I'd never place him in the same tier as Zelda, Jiggs, and Samus. I'd honestly put him in B-/B+ if it were up to me, but I suppose it really depends on the semantics of the tiers themselves, what the cutoff for viability is. Even then, Ganon's viability is trapped in "maybe-sort-of-sometimes-viable" limbo due to how drastic the difference between "doing well" and "doing badly" is with Ganon.

Ganon's viability in two sentences: When Ganon is winning, he's top tier. When he's losing, he's rock bottom.

And Ganon is the best sword character ever

 

[RonNewcomb]

Well to be fair that discussion happened RIGHT before 1.1.1 which made Shulk's moves somewhat better via shieldstun (especially Buster, and giving Shield a small niche in that regard). Not that he rose drastically, but...

That would explain bottom-tier Lucas. That patch really helped his whole kit congeal.

 

[Browny]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

ilu rain and neitono keep doing what youre doing.

If anyone is ever interested, on Neitonos stream he sometimes uses Mewtwo and swags on people all day long. Ginko/Abadango/Neitono are all really good at showing what Mewtwo can do over there.

Personally I think Ike and DK should go up a tier and G&W down a tier and we're good

 

[ぱみゅ]

>Not grouped within tiers
>Groups like 15 characters in each tier
>Most complaints get dismissed because they're not ordered

Well played Rain-san, well played.
I have a lot of disagreements with that list, but not really willing to debate them.
DK, Ike and LUIGI are incredibly low (I can understand Luigi in their footsies/spacing-based metagame though).
And why is Doctor Mario that high up?
The rest of my opinion differences fall under the "not ordered" thing.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

I'm a bit surprised at Ganon's placement. I can't imagine Japan not having Ganon rep seeing as they have Gungnir, unarguably one of the best Ganon's and quite possibly the best period. I've heard he hasn't gone to many tournaments though, and even then, Vermanubis and Ray_Kalm may have surpassed him at some point. Does Japan have any tourney-heavy Ganon's? A2ZOMG

As for the character himself, Ganon has his issues, but I'd never place him in the same tier as Zelda, Jiggs, and Samus. I'd honestly put him in B-/B+ if it were up to me, but I suppose it really depends on the semantics of the tiers themselves, what the cutoff for viability is. Even then, Ganon's viability is trapped in "maybe-sort-of-sometimes-viable" limbo due to how drastic the difference between "doing well" and "doing badly" is with Ganon.

Ganon's viability in two sentences: When Ganon is winning, he's top tier. When he's losing, he's rock bottom.

And Ganon is the best sword character ever

I sometimes think Ganon's underrated myself. Then I run into Sheik, and my carriage turns back into a pumpkin.

That needle throw sound effect is in my nightmares. Fast Damage Racking Projectiles on Characters Who Are Already Fast and Dangerous Up Close, Part 2, In Which We Clearly Learned Nothing From Melee Fox's Blaster.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/653589788570726400

Rain's 1.1.2 Tier List (collaboration with Nietono)
Not ordered within tiers

A+
A
B+
B-
C+
C-

Thoughts?

Why hasn't anybody mentioned Kirby being bottom 5? He isn't good or anything (trust me, I've been advocating him being bad for a while now) but he has enough strengths to keep him from trash tier. His d-air ALONE is enough to keep him out of bottom tier, since it can demolish so many characters from a simple air-dodge bait/up-b intercept. He is guarunteed bottom 20, bottom 15 maybe. I can't see him bottom 10 let alone bottom 5, his strengths (while hard to achieve) definitely put him above most of the other bottom 10s.

Also lucas bottom tier...

 

[Mr. Johan]

Every character can do this, with varying degrees of success.

However, as far as utility goes this could help Link and Toon Link significantly beyond the Ftilt and grab. The slide also works with item tosses, and so Link can get Bomb -> Uair/Fair strings when he couldn't before, and Toon Link can guarantee he gets them all the time, pretty much. Toon Link also gets massive coverage with his Usmash, and even moreso when Jump Canceled. A very nifty maneuver.

 

[Nu~]

Every character can do this, with varying degrees of success.

However, as far as utility goes this could help Link and Toon Link significantly beyond the Ftilt and grab. The slide also works with item tosses, and so Link can get Bomb -> Uair/Fair strings when he couldn't before, and Toon Link can guarantee he gets them all the time, pretty much. Toon Link also gets massive coverage with his Usmash, and even moreso when Jump Canceled. A very nifty maneuver.

So you're telling me that I can do this into DACIT galaxian and bell? And possibly make my grab a little less ****ty?

What a time to be alive