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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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FimPhym

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Anyone claiming pit and dark pit are not adjacent in the tier list are suggesting that the game's balance is so tight that the difference in power between two arrows and some knockback on f tilt contains several characters.

By sheer chance, five or more characters landed in the power level between two variations on a projectile, and a touch of knockback on one move.

This is clearly not true. A trick of perspective and over analysis. Take a step back and look at the big picture.
 
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Samexnyhi

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that the difference in power between two arrows and some knockback on f tilt contains several characters.
We don't now for sure if there is any character between them, there is no order between tiers. Pit could be the last character from the A tiers and DPit the first of the B+. Maybe he only wanted to show that Pit is better than DPit.
 

Tri Knight

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We don't now for sure if there is any character between them, there is no order between tiers. Pit could be the last character from the A tiers and DPit the first of the B+. Maybe he only wanted to show that Pit is better than DPit.
But they're not in order, so putting them in separate tiers suggests that Dark Pit is a whole tier lower.
 

Boney

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Anyone claiming pit and dark pit are not adjacent in the tier list are suggesting that the game's balance is so tight that the difference in power between two arrows and some knockback on f tilt contains several characters.

By sheer chance, five or more characters landed in the power level between two variations on a projectile, and a touch of knockback on one move.

This is clearly not true. A trick of perspective and over analysis. Take a step back and look at the big picture.
Pit has an easier time killing due to how his specific moves work. And that's a huge deal.
 

Routa

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I'm going to throw out my opinion about Pit(s).

Pit might be better, but the difference is so damn minimal that no one should give a ****. There is no way that Pit is a TIER above Edgy Pit.
Oh and about the arrows... Edgy Pit has superior arrows when customs are allowed.

Now can we talk about something els like Lucario?
 
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Antonykun

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It feels kind of weird to single out Ike's D-Air as bad when practically EVERY character that's not Peach, Kirby, Fox, Mario, Luma, or Pit (and probably someone else, but I forgot) has a pretty mediocre to awful D-Air.
you forgot Villager's disjointed (sometimes) spike and Swordfighter's borderline impossible to challenge attack btw
 

FullMoon

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Greninja's D-Air is a mixed bag. It's safe on shield, combos in kill percentages, jab-locks and can spike, but if you miss you're going to eat some nasty punishments and it's frame 17 at earliest.

It's a pretty decent move all things considered, as long as you know when to use it and are careful with it.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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Zelda has a noteworthy Adair as well, F14, but it's very strong and doesn't have much end lag and always spikes even with the sourspot, which sometimes leads to a footstool, and on grounded opponents can combo into other attacks if sweet spotted, while also being autocancelable
 

Wintermelon43

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It feels kind of weird to single out Ike's D-Air as bad when practically EVERY character that's not Peach, Kirby, Fox, Mario, Luma, or Pit (and probably someone else, but I forgot) has a pretty mediocre to awful D-Air.
Jigglypuff, Falco, and Mii Swordfighters are good as well.
 

Spinosaurus

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DAirs aren't universally mediocre in this game. On top of the ones mentioned already there's Meta Knight, Yoshi, Wario, Ryu, Luigi, Sonic, etc etc etc

And I don't even know how you can talk about good dairs without mentioning Villager.
 

L9999

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I'm going to throw out my opinion about Pit(s).

Pit might be better, but the difference is so damn minimal that no one should give a ****. There is no way that Pit is a TIER above Edgy Pit.
Oh and about the arrows... Edgy Pit has superior arrows when customs are allowed.

Now can we talk about something else like Lucario?
Doesn't Pit gets the same treatment with his custom arrows? Can't remembered since I played customs a long time ago.
Last I remembered, it was talked how to DI out of Aura Sphere at the edge. And most Lucario talk is summed up that he is atrocious without aura and is deadly and jank with aura, and something about Sheik matchup that went nowhere.

DAirs aren't universally mediocre in this game. On top of the ones mentioned already there's Meta Knight, Yoshi, Wario, Ryu, Luigi, Sonic, etc etc etc

And I don't even know how you can talk about good dairs without mentioning Villager.
They are. :4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4myfriends::4littlemac::4marth::4shulk::4robinm::4lucina::4pacman::4palutena::4zss::4wiifit::4tlink::4sonic::4sheik::4samus::4duckhunt::4falco::4gaw::4miibrawl::4miigun::4ness::4feroy: This are all the characters on top of my head that have a Dair that's either mediocre or absolute garbage that their only use is for disrespect.
 

KirbySquad101

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DAirs aren't universally mediocre in this game. On top of the ones mentioned already there's Meta Knight, Yoshi, Wario, Ryu, Luigi, Sonic, etc etc etc

And I don't even know how you can talk about good dairs without mentioning Villager.
There are some that are good, but I can think of a good majority that are pretty bad.

EDIT: L9999 just ninja'd me.
 
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A2ZOMG

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The higher damage and kb on Dark Pit's arrows actually matters in legitimate projectile wars if you ask me. Like say vs Sheik, a Dark Pit arrow is frankly going to be a lot more practical for trading against Needles than Pit's arrows, even factoring relatively gimmicky shenanigans where you try to hover above needles with Pit (which is pretty high commitment).

Also the extra control on Pit's arrows is really overrated imo. You don't really hit people with arrows except in situations where they're either committed to something punishable or asleep frankly. They're not hard to dodge on reaction realistically, and the situations where extra control actually gets you more hits in trap situations are pretty rare honestly. The main situation arrow control helps Pit is punishing like...air projectile zoning, which is actually fairly rare in this game outside of certain item tosses, Mario, and Doc (also really minor in the matchups anyway).

Pit's overall better due to F-tilt and SideB being better KO options, but Dark Pit has the noticeably better Rosalina matchup and realistically in most situations I'd argue his arrows are better simply because in the uncommon situations where you can trap people into a projectile, the reward on his projectile matters more.
 
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L9999

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just saying these characters can d-air into up b for nasty bellow the stage pressure
Sonic in particular can spike and then happily come back
Yes, it has been a long time since I fought a Sonic/GnW that used those tactics. Most of them just use Spring/Bucket offstage.

As of characters who have good Dairs that are not called Killager: :4fox::4kirby::4link::4lucario::4mario::4megaman::4pit::4peach::rosalina::4yoshi::4zelda:(yes):4diddy::4falcon::4metaknight::4bowserjr::4darkpit::4ganondorf::4miisword::4rob::4pikachu::4wario::4lucas::4ryu:.
With this I not sure.:4greninja::4olimar::4drmario::4jigglypuff::4luigi:.
 
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wedl!!

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Not sure how exactly GnW has a bad Dair.

Also, not sure how no one's talked about :4diddy: or :4falcon:'s dairs. Those things are ridiculously easy to land for how powerful and fast they are. They also combo; Diddy has Dthrow>Dair until like 40% and Falcon has some pretty nasty footstool shenanigans.
 

LancerStaff

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Anyone claiming pit and dark pit are not adjacent in the tier list are suggesting that the game's balance is so tight that the difference in power between two arrows and some knockback on f tilt contains several characters.

By sheer chance, five or more characters landed in the power level between two variations on a projectile, and a touch of knockback on one move.

This is clearly not true. A trick of perspective and over analysis. Take a step back and look at the big picture.
They're not ordered within the tiers...

Don't see how losing a pretty significant tool in recovery isn't major.

I'm going to throw out my opinion about Pit(s).

Pit might be better, but the difference is so damn minimal that no one should give a ****. There is no way that Pit is a TIER above Edgy Pit.
Oh and about the arrows... Edgy Pit has superior arrows when customs are allowed.

Now can we talk about something els like Lucario?
I don't think we can say that Dark Pit's Guiding Bow is better then Pit's. It's a minor difference between control and damage, and if we're talking about customs as a whole then Pit still has his default arrows. Guiding Bow isn't a straight upgrade to Pit's defaults since the arrows are slower and there's more endlag.

The higher damage and kb on Dark Pit's arrows actually matters in legitimate projectile wars if you ask me. Like say vs Sheik, a Dark Pit arrow is frankly going to be a lot more practical for trading against Needles than Pit's arrows, even factoring relatively gimmicky shenanigans where you try to hover above needles with Pit (which is pretty high commitment).

Also the extra control on Pit's arrows is really overrated imo. You don't really hit people with arrows except in situations where they're either committed to something punishable or asleep frankly. They're not hard to dodge on reaction realistically, and the situations where extra control actually gets you more hits in trap situations are pretty rare honestly. The main situation arrow control helps Pit is punishing like...air projectile zoning, which is actually fairly rare in this game outside of certain item tosses, Mario, and Doc (also really minor in the matchups anyway).

Pit's overall better due to F-tilt and SideB being better KO options, but Dark Pit has the noticeably better Rosalina matchup and realistically in most situations I'd argue his arrows are better simply because in the uncommon situations where you can trap people into a projectile, the reward on his projectile matters more.
I'd rather hit with ten times as many arrows then do slightly more damage and KB. Even against characters with a recovery like Shiek's you'll be hitting with them that much more when they're offstage. Then there's also following up your BNB Dthrow > Uair with arrows that pop the opponent back up and aren't easily avoided. You see, charging is a very useful thing for Pit because now the opponent doesn't know when he's going to shoot, and since they can be controlled they can hit the opponent wherever they are. If Pit's holding B and they airdodge that's a free 5%. Dark Pit essentially can't charge his arrows, and thus in this situation has to work harder for less damage.

The big thing is that Pit can easily utilize the reduced lag in the air and still hit a grounded opponent. Dark Pit can, but it also puts him right in front of those needles/hadokens/thunder jolts Pit would just jump over. There's really no risk to jumping and shooting anyway... Dunno where that idea came from.
 

Antonykun

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Yes, it has been a long time since I fought a Sonic/GnW that used those tactics. Most of them just use Spring/Bucket offstage.

As of characters who have good Dairs that are not called Killager: :4fox::4kirby::4link::4lucario::4mario::4megaman::4pit::4peach::rosalina::4yoshi::4zelda:(yes):4diddy::4falcon::4metaknight::4bowserjr::4darkpit::4ganondorf::4miisword::4rob::4pikachu::4wario::4lucas::4ryu:.
With this I not sure.:4greninja::4olimar::4drmario::4jigglypuff::4luigi:.
Thats a lot of good dairs
 

A2ZOMG

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I'd rather hit with ten times as many arrows then do slightly more damage and KB. Even against characters with a recovery like Shiek's you'll be hitting with them that much more when they're offstage. Then there's also following up your BNB Dthrow > Uair with arrows that pop the opponent back up and aren't easily avoided. You see, charging is a very useful thing for Pit because now the opponent doesn't know when he's going to shoot, and since they can be controlled they can hit the opponent wherever they are. If Pit's holding B and they airdodge that's a free 5%. Dark Pit essentially can't charge his arrows, and thus in this situation has to work harder for less damage.

The big thing is that Pit can easily utilize the reduced lag in the air and still hit a grounded opponent. Dark Pit can, but it also puts him right in front of those needles/hadokens/thunder jolts Pit would just jump over. There's really no risk to jumping and shooting anyway... Dunno where that idea came from.
You're hitting with ten times as many arrows as Pit as opposed to Dark Pit? Frankly, I don't believe that's how matchups work. This isn't Brawl where Pit's arrows were borderline OP.

Also the arrow shot is reactable even if you try to delay by charging. It's seriously not hard to avoid on reaction, and ultimately makes it mostly irrelevant in matchup discussion.

Also if you're jumping that high as Pit just to shoot arrows, you're putting yourself in a bad position when you could have gotten more stage control with stuff like his better F-tilt, frankly, and now instead of throwing projectiles, a smart opponent would instead go to juggle you. Pit's arrows aren't really "better", especially when in almost all the practical situations where they aren't unsafe to throw out, they're not even likely to hit anyone because their release is reactable.

Meaning in legitimate long range trap situations and in projectile wars, Dark Pit's superior reward on arrows actually matters a lot more in comparison.
 
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meleebrawler

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Thats a lot of good dairs
Thing is a lot of "bad" dairs can at least command respect, or at least have significant reward for landing them.
Nobody likes to be hit by Bowser's falling shell. Then there's the surprise mobility granted by stall-then-falls (especially for Sonic).

With that in mind the only truly bad dairs are Pac-Man's (damage and attack speed are just laughable), Little Mac's (duh), Sheik's (easily the worst stall-then-fall), Shulk's (onstage at least) and maybe Duck Hunt's (not sure what shieldstun did for it).
 
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Mario766

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Define a good D-Air for me again, because I think people have other ideas of what makes a D-Air good.

Is it good in neutral?
Is it good as a spike?

Link's D-Air is...neither. Ganon's D-Air is good as a spike but hitting it literally takes a hard read or a really bad blunder from his opponent

Oh wait

That's Ganon's entire kit in general.
 

Vipermoon

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Funny thing is Sheik has a Ken combo with stall and fall Dair.

Edit: it may not combo. I saw that it was frame 15. Even with that air speed idk if that works.
 
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meleebrawler

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Define a good D-Air for me again, because I think people have other ideas of what makes a D-Air good.

Is it good in neutral?
Is it good as a spike?

Link's D-Air is...neither. Ganon's D-Air is good as a spike but hitting it literally takes a hard read or a really bad blunder from his opponent

Oh wait

That's Ganon's entire kit in general.
A lot otherwise powerful dairs happen to be on characters lacking the mobility to really make them threatening. Case in point: Falcon.

Another thing you should ask about a dair is "does it demand respect?".

Link's dair may not be good in neutral against good opponents or great at spiking, but you definitely don't want to be trying to challenge him when that sword's coming down on your head.
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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Lol, has anyone noticed how so many characters seem to have bad landing options?

BTW out of curiosity what characters that are at least upper mid and below seem to at least stand a chance to a few of top tiers?
Kirby is a decent option for Shiek,Fox,ZSS(debatable), Falcon,Ness(debatable) but mainly struggles with Yoshi the most.
I keep forgetting whos considered top tiers besides those guys.
Well first of all Kirby isn't high-mid.

Kirby Sheik (imo) is not close to good. Sheik demolishes Kirby in neutral, and while we can duck under needles they are hard to react to. She is faster than us in the air and on the ground, she can edge-guard us easily while we can't edge-guard her. That MU is prob 40:60 maybe worse, I no longer see kirby as a good choice against sheik in a non-customs meta.

ZSS can still hit us in duck, even though her neutral is bad (and a bit worse due to ducking) it still beats our neutral, one mistake = death, she is faster than us and outranges us, she covers all (and that's not a lot) of our landing options in the air, and other things. Also probably 40:60 or worse.

Fox is prob 50:50, don't wanna explain but amazing combos + fear of combos + duck under lasers + easy af edge-guarding. He still has plenty of things on us tho, so 50:50.

Another MU I can see being 50:50 is Falcon, due to him being rush down and that being exactly what we want. We make him scared of being to aggressive, if he's offstage he is dead. He still has speed, range, and more power, but imo this is enough to maybe make it a playable MU.
 

Mario766

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A lot otherwise powerful dairs happen to be on characters lacking the mobility to really make them threatening. Case in point: Falcon.

Another thing you should ask about a dair is "does it demand respect?".

Link's dair may not be good in neutral against good opponents or great at spiking, but you definitely don't want to be trying to challenge him when that sword's coming down on your head.
Falcon doesn't have the mobility to make it threatening...

wut


Try again.

Link's Dair doesn't demand respect either, because it gets beaten by just...moving left or right. DAMN

HARD STUFF
 

LancerStaff

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You're hitting with ten times as many arrows as Pit as opposed to Dark Pit? Frankly, I don't believe that's how matchups work. This isn't Brawl where Pit's arrows were borderline OP.

Also the arrow shot is reactable even if you try to delay by charging. It's seriously not hard to avoid on reaction, and ultimately makes it mostly irrelevant in matchup discussion.

Also if you're jumping that high as Pit just to shoot arrows, you're putting yourself in a bad position when you could have gotten more stage control with stuff like his better F-tilt, frankly, and now instead of throwing projectiles, a smart opponent would instead go to juggle you. Pit's arrows aren't really "better", especially when in almost all the practical situations where they aren't unsafe to throw out, they're not even likely to hit anyone because their release is reactable.

Meaning in legitimate long range trap situations and in projectile wars, Dark Pit's superior reward on arrows actually matters a lot more in comparison.
First of all, you're forgetting that arrows travel faster with more charge. At half they're at Brawl arrow speed. At max they're nearly unreactable across FD. And since Pit can hold the charge indefinitely... Yeah. You're going to get hit.

Dark Pit's arrows are even less safe close up because now he has like seven more frames of endlag (because he's on the ground) and only two more frames of safety at most on shield. Doesn't add up. Dark Pit's are much safer with more charge, but what's stopping the opponent from jumping over and Fairing you?

I said it's all offstage. Dark Pit isn't hitting Sheik at all. Pit will get 3 or 6% though, maybe more depending on how hard it is to hit her out of the Uspecial startup. (IIRC it has invincibility before it disappears?) Dark Pit also isn't doing jack to Villager, Bowser Jr, Wario, Ness, Lucas, Fox or Falco offstage with arrows. That's a few too many matchups where Pit's arrows have a major advantage to be ignored. Actually, how often will you hit with Dark Pit's arrows offstage at all? People have to literally line themselves up for you to hit them.

Trading even with Dark Pit's arrows is bad because they still don't do much damage. Typically you'll be out damaged.

In legitimate long range trap situations Pit can effectively vary the speed even after he fires thanks to the superior control. And you're still ignoring the whole "jump over projectiles" thing. It's not five jumps like you're thinking, it's just one full jump off the ground. Quick, easy and painless. Since Pit has three more jumps after that and one of the best Dairs in the game it's nowhere near as bad as you say even if for some reason you're letting them in like that.

Like, the freakin' CPUs demonstrate how much better Pit's arrows are. Why is this even an argument?
 

meleebrawler

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Falcon doesn't have the mobility to make it threatening...

wut


Try again.

Link's Dair doesn't demand respect either, because it gets beaten by just...moving left or right. DAMN

HARD STUFF
Ooh I worded that badly. I meant to say that Falcon does.

Also... moving to avoid a potential sword plant IS respecting the move. It's certainly not easy to dodge on reaction with how fast Link can fall. If you don't pursue him into the air because he might hit you with a painful dair (or nair), then the aerial just fulfilled it's function without even using it.
 
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Antonykun

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A lot otherwise powerful dairs happen to be on characters lacking the mobility to really make them threatening. Case in point: Falco.

Another thing you should ask about a dair is "does it demand respect?".

Link's dair may not be good in neutral against good opponents or great at spiking, but you definitely don't want to be trying to challenge him when that sword's coming down on your head.
i think i fixed a typo for you as I know Falcon has tons of mobility and if that doesn't make his dair threatening, then IDK

EDIT
Ooh I worded that badly. I meant to say that Falcon does.

Also... moving to avoid a potential sword plant IS respecting the move. It's certainly not easy to dodge on reaction with how fast Link can fall. If you don't pursue him into the air because he might hit you with a painful dair (or nair), then the aerial just fulfilled it's function without even using it.
i got ninja'd by this post :/
apologies
 
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Mario766

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Ooh I worded that badly. I meant to say that Falcon does.

Also... moving to avoid a potential sword plant IS respecting the move. It's certainly not easy to dodge on reaction with how fast Link can fall. If you don't pursue him into the air because he might hit you with a painful dair (or nair), then the aerial just fulfilled it's function without even using it.
No it's not. You don't respect it by moving out of the way, that's called...having a brain and punishing?

It does 18 damage at the beginning and 15 at any time that you'd actually hit it. It also has enough landing lag that Ike can UP SMASH it on whiff and still punish it. That's BAD. Risk to Reward is terrible. You also don't even have to get out of the way. There's this magical button called R. Push it.
 
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meleebrawler

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No it's not. You don't respect it by moving out of the way, that's called...having a brain and punishing?

It does 18 damage at the beginning and 15 at any time that you'd actually hit it. It also has enough landing lag that Ike can UP SMASH it on whiff and still punish it. That's BAD. Risk to Reward is terrible. You also don't even have to get out of the way. There's this magical button called R. Push it.
My point is: would you chase Link in the air knowing he could do it?

'Cuz if you never do, then he never has to use it and will be perfectly fine with nair. It's the same principle charged projectiles have going for them.

Also how is 15% damage plus potential bounces bad reward for an aerial?
 
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Vipermoon

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If the Link is bad I chase him in the air with Counter. Works every time.

Let me contribute: Link's Dair is great for guarding the ledge. Anything with a constant hitbox is while Link's happens to be powerful and spikes at first.
 
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⑨ball

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:4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4myfriends::4littlemac::4marth::4shulk::4robinm::4lucina::4pacman::4palutena::4zss::4wiifit::4tlink::4sonic::4sheik::4samus::4duckhunt::4falco::4gaw::4miibrawl::4miigun::4ness::4feroy: This are all the characters on top of my head that have a Dair that's either mediocre or absolute garbage that their only use is for disrespect.
Pretty curious what exactly are the standards for a good dair are looking at your two lists.
 

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My point is: would you chase Link in the air knowing he could do it?

'Cuz if you never do, then he never has to use it and will be perfectly fine with nair. It's the same principle charged projectiles have going for them.

Also how is 15% damage plus potential bounces bad reward for an aerial?
The risk is much worse than the reward. Also I DO go after Link even with D-Air, because I'm Ike and I outspace Link's D-Air with up up air.
 

DanGR

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Link's d-air is bad. It's good, great even, at what it does, but it's super limited in when it can be used effectively. It's no different than a character being good in some matchups, but not having the versatility to be a truly good character.

RosaLuma's dair is easily the most versatile and effective one in the game. It has plenty of threatening uses onstage, offstage, aggressively, defensively, in advantage, disadvantage- you name it.
 
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Locke 06

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At max they're nearly unreactable across FD. And since Pit can hold the charge indefinitely... Yeah. You're going to get hIt
No? These things don't fly faster than Link's fully charged arrows, Sheik's needles, or Duck Hunt's gunmen. Are they faster than Fox's blaster or even Pacman's key? Walk & shield or literally just walk away and wait.

Let's not get overly emotional about our main and make outlandish statements.
 

Routa

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How to win Link 101:

Step 1: Pick a character with a counter
Step 2: Get Link off-stage
Step 3: Counter his Ledge Jump Dair
Step 4: Repeat till Link dies.

But yeah it is a bit too laggy to be considered good even tho it deals nice damage.
 

LancerStaff

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No? These things don't fly faster than Link's fully charged arrows, Sheik's needles, or Duck Hunt's gunmen. Are they faster than Fox's blaster or even Pacman's key? Walk & shield or literally just walk away and wait.

Let's not get overly emotional about our main and make outlandish statements.
I said nearly. Link's arrows are much more rigid then Pit's...

Actually, I'm not sure how fast it is compared to those other projectiles. I'll take a look sometime.

Regardless, my point is that you're not going to dodge them every time offstage or in a juggle.
 

Vipermoon

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How to win Link 101:

Step 1: Pick a character with a counter
Step 2: Get Link off-stage
Step 3: Counter his Ledge Jump Dair
Step 4: Repeat till Link dies.

But yeah it is a bit too laggy to be considered good even tho it deals nice damage.
Counter his actual recovery (unless tether will reach then he shouldn't use it).
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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I still wonder with this what changes would be made with the shield changes that went through. Who got noticeably better and who got noticeably worse when those changes hit.

More so I see a lot of characters getting better but it hit the whole cast, so the question is who got the most benefit from it.
 
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