Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Browny]

I think Luigi is pretty much in the same position as Greninja, a character who's totally fine but is held back from being solo viable by having a horrible MU with the best character in the game.

Dude... Seriously. We get it. We got it ages ago. Stop giving it.

Meanwhile Sheik wrecks him pretty severely (more than she does to some other high tiers at least) and that alone is a massive hit to his viability.

I keep playing Greninja because I love him and I do well with him. Never do I feel like I'm losing because of my character choice (except against Sheik, sometimes)

But geez the Sheik MU is a major roadblock for Greninja in tournaments.

Given the results Greninja has, I do have to say that he's likely not solo viable with Sheik around. The MU really is looking to be unwinnable at top level for us given how Some keeps getting roadblocked by her.

Sheik is far too overwhelming for Greninja, the only thing we have over her is that we have more immediate kill power on our moves, otherwise she just destroys us unless she gets really outplayed.

Sheik is a massive roadblock for Greninja and she's basically the only thing keeping him from being solo viable.

It's just the same problem that we've discussed even before the patch hit:
Sheik exists.
That alone makes Greninja not solo-viable

Not while Sheik exists.

I see Pikachu as being 55:45 at worst. He's nowhere close to be as bad as Sheik.

As far as viability goes he's not solo viable while Sheik is around and I guess at the end of the day that's what matters.

Just about every second post of yours on this forum is complaining about Sheik as if she is an auto-win vs greninja. This is not rosalina vs ness where one character has an auto-gimp on the other with a move that goes through airdodges to push him offstage. That is a counter that will stop you in your tracks

Here's a free lesson; Every character struggles to deal with Sheik. The same weaknesses that sheik exploits to 'invalidate' Greninja, other top tier characters are able to do as well. Similarly many other top tier characters have the same advantages over Greninja as they do the rest of the cast.

To suggest that Sheik is the only reason Greninja is held back, is to suggest that if she was taken out of the game, Greninja would suddenly be high tier. But wait a minute, if that happened EVERY character would go up since they no longer deal with such a harsh matchup, and now the entire cast is high tier!

We could do what you do to literally every character in the game.
"The only reason Bowser Jr is held back because of Sheik"
"Toon Link would be solo viable if he didnt lost so bad to sheik"

EVERYONE loses to sheik, Greninja is not special. I refuse to believe that sheik is the literal anti-greninja because everything that she does to counter him, she does to everyone else.

 

[Antonykun]

Dude... Seriously. We get it. We got it ages ago. Stop giving it.












Just about every second post of yours on this forum is complaining about Sheik as if she is an auto-win vs greninja. This is not rosalina vs ness where one character has an auto-gimp on the other with a move that goes through airdodges to push him offstage. That is a counter that will stop you in your tracks

Here's a free lesson; Every character struggles to deal with Sheik. The same weaknesses that sheik exploits to 'invalidate' Greninja, other top tier characters are able to do as well. Similarly many other top tier characters have the same advantages over Greninja as they do the rest of the cast.

To suggest that Sheik is the only reason Greninja is held back, is to suggest that if she was taken out of the game, Greninja would suddenly be high tier. But wait a minute, if that happened EVERY character would go up since they no longer deal with such a harsh matchup, and now the entire cast is high tier!

We could do what you do to literally every character in the game.
"The only reason Bowser Jr is held back because of Sheik"
"Toon Link would be solo viable if he didnt lost so bad to sheik"

EVERYONE loses to sheik, Greninja is not special. I refuse to believe that sheik is the literal anti-greninja because everything that she does to counter him, she does to everyone else.

tbh Greninja mains talk about Sheik like if instead of starting the battle the game checks if its specifically greninja vs sheik and if it is it goes directly to the win screen

but still that's not exactly the best line of thinking that you have though
if a character does fine with every other top tier but gets destroyed by Sheik then that character is simply not viable. the Greninja mains Argument is that Greninja has winnable matchups with everyone BUT sheik and thats why they are not viable

 

[TDK]

On a different topic, what's s worst MU?

 

[Antonykun]

On a different topic, what's s worst MU?

you should go ask the peach mains that
my guess, it's probably Sheik due to her ant air capabilities

 

[wedl!!]

probably. Did I mention ?

 

[Pyr]

On a different topic, what's s worst MU?

In my limited time with her, I feel she has a lot of trouble with characters that primarily want to keep her out. She doesn't have the easiest time against other characters that just sit back and create walls against her. Breaking those walls isn't the easiest, either.

Again, limited play time (less then triple digit hours) in her character, but that's my initial impression.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

On a different topic, what's s worst MU?

Personally, I think she struggles against Diddy / Sheik.

 

[Browny]

tbh Greninja mains talk about Sheik like if instead of starting the battle the game checks if its specifically greninja vs sheik and if it is it goes directly to the win screen

but still that's not exactly the best line of thinking that you have though
if a character does fine with every other top tier but gets destroyed by Sheik then that character is simply not viable. the Greninja mains Argument is that Greninja has winnable matchups with everyone BUT sheik and thats why they are not viable

This is what I, and anyone else can see. Switch Greninjas comment with any other character and it makes just as much sense.

There is no way that Greninja mains can argue that he would be solo viable if sheik was gone, that cant apply to every other character. When you are so far down the tournament rankings list its ridiculous to suggest that you and you alone are the worst affected by sheik, when sheik does not have an auto-win vs greninja.

She beats plenty of characters just as bad as greninja, yet they dont claim theyd be high tier without her. Thats the point I am making. There is nothing about that particular matchup that sheik doesnt do to invalidate a whole bunch of the cast, she doesnt have some auto-death combo on him.

 

[Gunla]

Greninja loses matchups. In my opinion, we lose to:
, possibly , and , and probably a few more.

Sheik is just the one that gets placed into the spotlight the most since it ends up devolving into people saying "why play this character when Sheik does everything better, projectiles, aerials, grab game, etc"? I personally think Greninja is solo viable with the Sheik matchup being taken into account, but likely at the near end of that line (like many characters in this game)

I get that Greninja is talked about a lot and we say that Greninja is invalidated by Sheik, but that's not us saying that no one else has as bad a time; there are characters that are practically desolated by Sheik, there's characters that have better times. For us, it's the worst MU we have, and it's the MU that honestly matters the most right now for many characters.

On that point, I still think Luigi is solo viable thanks to his good strengths. He's definitely not the polarizing character that many complained about anymore, but he's still good.

 

[wedl!!]

I am awful at writeups, so if you want to know my opinion of Peach/Sheik go watch Vinnie/Slayerz.

tl;dr: It's hard for Peach to get in, but realistically possible. Stay at midrange and harass her hard. You're not winning up close or far away, be really patient and wait for an opening.

Also just BTW she only really loses to , , , , , , and if we're talking the strongest character list.

 

[Antonykun]

This is what I, and anyone else can see. Switch Greninjas comment with any other character and it makes just as much sense.

There is no way that Greninja mains can argue that he would be solo viable if sheik was gone, that cant apply to every other character. When you are so far down the tournament rankings list its ridiculous to suggest that you and you alone are the worst affected by sheik, when sheik does not have an auto-win vs greninja.

She beats plenty of characters just as bad as greninja, yet they dont claim theyd be high tier without her. Thats the point I am making. There is nothing about that particular matchup that sheik doesnt do to invalidate a whole bunch of the cast, she doesnt have some auto-death combo on him.

after this I'll stop arguing about this but you do realize that results chart has far more variables involved such as love of character and love of playstyle or ease of play

 

[Blobface]

Re Dair: GanonDair is pretty good. Onstage you can land it off of relatively safe reads, and the huge damage, lengthy hitstun, and straight vertical knockback make it very rewarding. It can even true combo to U-smash (in an admittedly tiny % bracket) for a hilarious 45 damage.

Offstage it's not something you'll connect consistently but it's basically instant death if you land it; and I'm not kidding when I say the sheer amount of mental damage sustained by stomped opponents can make it worth it.

You'd probably see Ganons go for Dair more often if it weren't for U-air... somehow being the best spike in the game.

 

[Tri Knight]

There's this magical button called R. Push it.

No you fool! Link's weakness! You're giving it away!

 

[thehard]

I tuned into Pink Fresh's Lucas at Xanadu. That char can terrorize shields now.

 

[Vipermoon]

Greninja loses matchups. In my opinion, we lose to:
, possibly , and , and probably a few more.

Sheik is just the one that gets placed into the spotlight the most since it ends up devolving into people saying "why play this character when Sheik does everything better, projectiles, aerials, grab game, etc"? I personally think Greninja is solo viable with the Sheik matchup being taken into account, but likely at the near end of that line (like many characters in this game)

I get that Greninja is talked about a lot and we say that Greninja is invalidated by Sheik, but that's not us saying that no one else has as bad a time; there are characters that are practically desolated by Sheik, there's characters that have better times. For us, it's the worst MU we have, and it's the MU that honestly matters the most right now for many characters.

On that point, I still think Luigi is solo viable thanks to his good strengths. He's definitely not the polarizing character that many complained about anymore, but he's still good.

Nah, Greninja doesn't lose to Marth. Especially since Shurikens were buffed Marth doesn't really have an answer to constant Shuriken spam. As long as the Greninja bans Battlefield they're good. I know this by experience.

 

[Speed Boost]

You have to be seriously bad to fall for that considering the ftame data on arrows is mediocre. That's nearly as fraudulent as Mario landing Dthrow Usmash on an airdodge read on Battlefield...in short, why would anyone get hit by that?

In fact, why wouldn't you just go straight for the aerial or Usmash when those by themselves can trap dodges and Pit runs fast, something to abuse to stay under your opponent. In fact if it's a Uthrow->arrow followup, Dark Pit also gets more reward if for whatever reason they refuse to airdodge.

The frame data on the arrows is irrelevant because you either hit them with the arrow or they dodge or double jump. If they air dodge the frame data on their air dodge is all that matters. You catch them coming out of the air dodge with an aerial or up smash. This is called a frame trap because once they air dodge they cant avoid it.

It's not read like down throw charged up smash as you described. It's a landing trap. You want them to air dodge the arrow. I'm afraid I can't put it any clearer.

 

[Smog Frog]

whaddya all think of in terms of viability? i mean he doesnt really seem to have any very bad matchups(except mayyybeeee ...)

 

[Nu~]

whaddya all think of in terms of viability? i mean he doesnt really seem to have any very bad matchups(except mayyybeeee ...)

I think that he will become a future high tier character...

But there are no results so don't mind me

 

[hypersonicJD]

ZeRo actually had a good reasoning... Lucas can have an even or match-up with Rosalina since he also has disjoints, PK Fire murders Luma easily and he isn't easy to edgeguard (tether boys). I might be wrong with this though. It's just how I think. Besides, Lucas can kill Rosalina easily with a Down Throw Up Air confirm at 90% or less. Rosalina is also combo food for Lucas since she is tall.

Correct me if i'm wrong please. I don't want to get in trouble again

 

[momochuu]

Greninja loses matchups. In my opinion, we lose to:
, possibly , and , and probably a few more.

unless you could 45:55 as "losing a matchup" (in any other game 45:55 is basically an even matchup except smash for some reason) greninja doesn't lose to any of those characters except maybe sonic. fox is 45:55 at worst, same with pikachu, and zss. he beats ness barely, he beats marth, and he goes even with wario.

the only undeniably bad matchup he has is against sheik. his other matchups are no worse than 45:45.

 

[Jehtt]

If Greninja had no bad matchups aside from Sheik, you'd think he'd see some results by now. I'm not going to pretend like I understand Greninja as a character very well, but the claim that none of his matchups are below 45:55 seems ridiculous to me.

Gunla I'd be curious to here your opinion on those matchups and why you think they are negative.

 

[Prometheus16]

Re Dair: GanonDair is pretty good. Onstage you can land it off of relatively safe reads, and the huge damage, lengthy hitstun, and straight vertical knockback make it very rewarding. It can even true combo to U-smash (in an admittedly tiny % bracket) for a hilarious 45 damage.

Offstage it's not something you'll connect consistently but it's basically instant death if you land it; and I'm not kidding when I say the sheer amount of mental damage sustained by stomped opponents can make it worth it.

You'd probably see Ganons go for Dair more often if it weren't for U-air... somehow being the best spike in the game.

I actally saw somewhere that the sour-spot on his dair is the strongest sourspot in the game. Not sure if that's true or not though...

 

[L9999]

This Greninja talk is going nowhere.....

 

[Vipermoon]

I actally saw somewhere that the sour-spot on his dair is the strongest sourspot in the game. Not sure if that's true or not though...

Falcon's sour spot (nipple hitbox) Dair is probably stronger. At least in any relevant percent ranges with the base knockback. It's actually really stupid. That nipple Dair should have the same KB values as the feet Dair.

 

[Gunla]

If Greninja had no bad matchups aside from Sheik, you'd think he'd see some results by now. I'm not going to pretend like I understand Greninja as a character very well, but the claim that none of his matchups are below 45:55 seems ridiculous to me.

Gunla I'd be curious to here your opinion on those matchups and why you think they are negative.

Just some quick general summaries here.
- Pikachu is a character that can really get under Greninja's skin; he's able to get out of many of Greninja's things, and generally can edgeguard him very well. 45:55 or 40:60.
- My personal least favorite matchup for the character. Fox's safe options can really shut out Gren. I think it's 40:60, but others will say 45:55.
- It's Sheik. 40:60.
- Similar reasons why other characters have issues; solid control over our options and makes our shuriken not as useful. 45:55.
- This is personally me at this point but I have never felt that we won this one. This post from Mik explains my sentiment. 45:55.
- Incredible and safe aerial options, another MU where shurikens aren't really as useful. 50:50 or 45:55.
- Really unsure on this one, discussed this one often with Shaya. I think it's a bit more even but some of Marth's options are very good against Gren, notably aerials. 50:50 or 45:55.
- Data should show that this in ZSS's favor, at least to me, but more often than not this feels even to me when I play against ZSS players. I genuinely am unsure of this matchup despite the large amount of experience I have had with it. 50:50?

This Greninja talk is going nowhere.....

Wouldn't say that at all, really; it's not a character that's often discussed and sparks some interest for myself at least.

 

[Browny]

after this I'll stop arguing about this but you do realize that results chart has far more variables involved such as love of character and love of playstyle or ease of play

I realise what I posted didn't convey what I was talking about properly.

I fully understand that its possible to have such a horrid matchup vs sheik that that one matchup alone would nuke his tournament results, but thats not what I was getting at, I'll try this one more time.

This applies to

If Greninja had no bad matchups aside from Sheik, you'd think he'd see some results by now. I'm not going to pretend like I understand Greninja as a character very well, but the claim that none of his matchups are below 45:55 seems ridiculous to me

as well, but it is not targeted at you Jehtt this is agreeing with you

My point was, Shiek beats a significant majority of the cast pretty easily. It can be true that Greninja goes 35:65 vs her and 45:55 vs everyone else. HOWEVER the vast majority of the cast also goes 35:65 vs sheik or worse. Many are too biased to admit that sheik really does stomp on them.

Despite this, a huge range of characters, who enter the exact same tournaments as Greninja does, are getting better results. How is this possible? Sheik beats down all of mid tier and lower just as hard as she does to Greninja, and these other characters lose harder to top tiers than Greninja does, yet they manage more consistent higher placings.

There are ONLY TWO possibilities in this situation, and I am using the words/mindset of greninja mains here when doing this;
1) The rest of the cast has more favourable matchups against the top/high tiers than greninja does or
2) Greninja is absolutely, brutally murdered by sheik with a unique auto-win playstyle vs him

If option 1 was true, then this would mean that Greninja actually falls into mid tier, since he is outclassed against sheik and the other top tiers by about half of the cast
If option 2 was true, then Greninja must have some incredibly easy-to-exploit weakness by sheik

But he doesnt! There is NOTHING that Sheik does to greninja, that she doesnt do to everyone else. She walls him out with fair, she kills with dthrow-uair, needles are annoying, she cant be edgeguarded.

There is just no way that Greninja loses SO BAD to sheik, that a huge amount of the cast does better than him vs her. There is no logic, no reasoning as to why this would be the case. Seems to me like its just a cop out, blaming sheik for Greninjas poor performances when other characters who lose WORSE to sheik than greninja do, still manage to place better because they have better matchups vs the rest of the cast (and thats probably because Greninja doesnt truly go 45:55 vs many of the top and high tiers).

 

[RIP_Lucas]

whaddya all think of in terms of viability? i mean he doesnt really seem to have any very bad matchups(except mayyybeeee ...)

While I don't agree that Lucas is just a worse Ness, a lot of what makes Ness work is a terrific grab game and how his Forward Air works. Without those things, Lucas has to play very differently, and it's just not as good. Personally I think he's just a minor grab buff away from high tier, but for now he languishes in the middle of the pack

Oh, and you forgot about Rosa, that can do down B for an easy kill whenever you're too far away to tether. He has an easier time than Ness, but still a bad match up.

 

[Megamang]

Or greninja is hard to pick up, and less represented. Just because you say there are 2 options doesnt mean there are only 2 options. Ganon got results in brawl...


Relating two topics, greninja benefited massively from the patch in my opinion. He went from almost safe to safe, its very apparent to me. He has hit confirm kills and a kill throw, some of the best mobility.

But anyways, stop pointing this out. I want him buffed more if people believe he is underwhelming. He feels like a top tier to me. Except against shiek. Its really hard. Thats what people are trying to express.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I realise what I posted didn't convey what I was talking about properly.

I fully understand that its possible to have such a horrid matchup vs sheik that that one matchup alone would nuke his tournament results, but thats not what I was getting at, I'll try this one more time.

This applies to
as well, but it is not targeted at you Jehtt this is agreeing with you

My point was, Shiek beats a significant majority of the cast pretty easily. It can be true that Greninja goes 35:65 vs her and 45:55 vs everyone else. HOWEVER the vast majority of the cast also goes 35:65 vs sheik or worse. Many are too biased to admit that sheik really does stomp on them.

Despite this, a huge range of characters, who enter the exact same tournaments as Greninja does, are getting better results. How is this possible? Sheik beats down all of mid tier and lower just as hard as she does to Greninja, and these other characters lose harder to top tiers than Greninja does, yet they manage more consistent higher placings.

There are ONLY TWO possibilities in this situation, and I am using the words/mindset of greninja mains here when doing this;
1) The rest of the cast has more favourable matchups against the top/high tiers than greninja does or
2) Greninja is absolutely, brutally murdered by sheik with a unique auto-win playstyle vs him

If option 1 was true, then this would mean that Greninja actually falls into mid tier, since he is outclassed against sheik and the other top tiers by about half of the cast
If option 2 was true, then Greninja must have some incredibly easy-to-exploit weakness by sheik

But he doesnt! There is NOTHING that Sheik does to greninja, that she doesnt do to everyone else. She walls him out with fair, she kills with dthrow-uair, needles are annoying, she cant be edgeguarded.

There is just no way that Greninja loses SO BAD to sheik, that a huge amount of the cast does better than him vs her. There is no logic, no reasoning as to why this would be the case. Seems to me like its just a cop out, blaming sheik for Greninjas poor performances when other characters who lose WORSE to sheik than greninja do, still manage to place better because they have better matchups vs the rest of the cast (and thats probably because Greninja doesnt truly go 45:55 vs many of the top and high tiers).

Doesn't Greninja have good result in europe and japan? I've been seeing several greninja mains talk about his strong results in those regions.

 

[Browny]

And that, also Megamang is the elusive third possibilty, the one that I didn't mention because I was only using the words of Greninja mains there

3) Greninja doesnt lose that bad to sheik and in fact, does better than most of the cast.

Its impossible to get good results while getting wrecked by sheik, but so many greninja mains are obsessed over claiming how bad the matchup is and its almost unwinnable.

Europe and Japan prove that it isnt that bad at all. So please Greninja mains... just give it a rest for a bit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Okay, thanks.

While we're on the subject, what exactly is "cancel" supposed to mean? I've heard it be used in so many different ways that it has no definite meaning....

It doesnt mean a damn thing because this community perverted its meaning two console generations ago.

 

[NairWizard]

Greninja does get dominated by Sheik harder than most characters around his general power level do in other matchups.

The thing about Greninja is that he has excellent midrange options and probably top 5 mobility (all things considered like initial dashes etc.) but awful answers to pressure, with a bad OOS game and no n-air escape option against up-tilt chains or pseudo-combos, which are particularly effective on fastfallers. He's basically not great at fighting at close range, but excellent at fighting from close-midrange (spacing using his high range) or at dashgrab/shuriken range. He can generally do pretty well against all the characters in the game, even those who excel in CQC, by keeping them out of close range using his high mobility and midrange spacing/baiting tools. That's the key to playing Greninja: use your top-tier midrange and top-tier mobility to bypass your bottom-tier CQC. And most characters have to play by these rules to at least some extent.

But then you have Sheik, who is not only great at CQC and pseudocomboing fastfallers but also has Needles to shut down Greninja's midrange game, and has terrifying mobility and midrange options herself besides. Greninja's gameplan completely falls apart vs. Sheik. No other character in the game is both good at applying close-quarters pressure and adept at midrange/longrange combat. Maybe Fox might be a horrible matchup too. Maybe. Still nowhere near as bad as Sheik just because of Needles though. The other matchups in the game are all mangeable.

So yes, quite literally it is Sheik that is holding Greninja back from solo main viability. His design is just such that it doesn't get shut down by any design in the game except for Sheik's (which is both unique and slightly overtuned).

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit doesn't get Usmash or Uair off arrow airdodge traps. Are you serious?

Doesn't have the airspeed to chase after aerial arrows, doesn't have good enough IASA to run after arrows to chase landings.

The main situation where Pit lands more arrows is literally against air projectile zoning, which is not common in this game.

For catching landings at long range or contesting grounded projectiles, the superior reward on Dark Pits arrows is relevant. This is actually a reasonably common situation.

Also Pit can't edgeguard anyone smart with arrows. He only has enough control to reach common recovery paths when his arrows aren't fully charged, which gives more than enough time to reactively airdodge. So again, the control factor on Pit arrows is overrated and mostly irrelevant. They're too high commitment to be good for starting traps, and for generic projectile wars and catching landings, Dark Pit simply gets more reward.

He does. Maybe not a true trap with Usmash, but if they're out of double jumps and Pit's in the right spot then they'll dodge through Usmash but then get struck by the final hit. Uair most certainly works.

Except Dark Pit's have more risk since you can't reduce the lag effectively. That's an instant advantage you've done a poor job of shrugging off...

So you're saying you want to be right below Pit offstage? If anything it's worth it to rope in opponents for easier Dair spikes... If they don't, then they're getting arrow'd.

You have to be seriously bad to fall for that considering the ftame data on arrows is mediocre. That's nearly as fraudulent as Mario landing Dthrow Usmash on an airdodge read on Battlefield...in short, why would anyone get hit by that?

In fact, why wouldn't you just go straight for the aerial or Usmash when those by themselves can trap dodges and Pit runs fast, something to abuse to stay under your opponent. In fact if it's a Uthrow->arrow followup, Dark Pit also gets more reward if for whatever reason they refuse to airdodge.

They come out on f20/22 ground/aerial or upwards and can act on 59/43 as of 1.1.1. Mario's fireballs start on 17 and can act on 53, at least on 1.0.4. How's that slow?

 

[Megamang]

Before 1.1.1, it felt ludicrous because any time you hit shiek's shield you got faired, which due to greninjas lack of a gtfo move, got you combod. Now fair is deadly pressure (before shiek should be killing anyways) and nair can be safe if done very close to the ground, so it is now certainly doable. Id say greninja was one of the winners of the patch, by a lot.

 

[FullMoon]

Eupore and Japan prove that it isnt that bad at all. So please Greninja mains... just give it a rest for a bit.

Uh... Some gets roadblocked by Sheik in Umebura, like, severely roadblocked, constantly.

The reason we claim that Greninja loses really badly to Sheik is not just because of some gut feeling, it's in face of actual evidence as the best Greninja player gets his tournament runs constantly stopped by good Sheiks getting in his way.

Sure, we shouldn't base MUs based on just one player's performance, but we don't exactly have a lot of top level Greninja material to base ourselves on

 

[bc1910]

Browny There's also secret option 4. Greninja is solo viable and Sheik is just his worst MU.

Which I... Am starting to think is the case. Roll the clock back to 1.1.0 and you'd hear me lamenting the Sheik MU as badly as the other Greninjas. Hell, I'd be at the front of the line. I'm not afraid to admit this. But now? We actually have safe on block pokes against her. We can actually challenge her tomahawks with Ftilt and Fair, Fair in particular having large reward and working a bit like hers, because she doesn't get press R and own us any more.

Now, to explain. In whatever patch, Greninja does lose to characters besides Sheik. Not many IMO, but he does have had MUs. The reason for all this invalidation chat? Sheik is thought to be worse than 60:40, none of the others are, and Sheik is the best most common character in the game. Others have touched upon why this MU is worse for Greninja than it is for other characters of his strength, so I won't go down that road for long, suffice to say I agree that he has (or, had) a worse MU with Sheik because she specifically targets his weaknesses and shuts down his strengths better than any other character and better than she does to others of his strength. She has a projectile good enough to consistently force his approach, the frame data to exploit his poor OoS game and the mobility to stay on him if she wants to. She is the only character in the game with all three of those qualities.

There aren't many Greninja players. This is a massive factor in his lack of results and no, maybe he wouldn't be storming everything without Sheik, but he isn't widely used. He is only just starting to recover from the overreaction to his original nerfs by the Japanese, who all (repeat: ALL) dropped him for Sheik except aMSa. Two months into the game, that is a massive stigma to overcome. Even those who didn't understand the root of the "Greninja is bad now" stigma would still be fully aware of the stigma itself. Now, public opinion of him is rising, it's rare to see him below the 15-25th position and some believe he could crack the tail end of top 15. That has taken a fairly long time, though.

If you look at the results that DO exist, you see Some losing to 2 Sheiks at Umebura FAT and a rando Sheik (no disrespect; as rando as you get in top 32) in Umebura 19. Daiki knocked him out but it's not too hard to stomach him losing to a player of that caliber. And on a lower more personal level of gameplay Greninja players seem to lose to Sheik more than any other character. So, the results do point to Sheik being his major roadblock. Does she warrant the amount of complaining from Fullmoon and others (including myself prepatch), probably not. But there's a clear correlation that she was his biggest problem prepatch and the biggest thorn in his side.

Now, I think this MU is doable. It needs a lot of work to understand but, no, she may not invalidate him like she once did. I don't think anyone including Some or aMSa have put the work in against Sheik that is required to understand her and beat her. I don't know what your opinion of the character is, but currently I believe Greninja could be solo viable with enough work against Sheik.

tl;dr Sheik really WAS the problem. Invalidation chat comes from Sheik shutting him down harder than she does other high tiers, which she does because of her specific strengths, however it's outdated in the current patch and must be re-evaluated. His relative lack of results also stems massively from lack of representation which can make it seem like he had more significant problem MUs than Sheik, when he probably didn't.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

I feel like Roy is underrated. He's got a great grab combo game, great mobility, and strong finishers. He just hasn't seen many results when characters can space him well. in particular is hell for him. But he's definitely better than lower middle tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The frame data on the arrows is irrelevant because you either hit them with the arrow or they dodge or double jump. If they air dodge the frame data on their air dodge is all that matters. You catch them coming out of the air dodge with an aerial or up smash. This is called a frame trap because once they air dodge they cant avoid it.

It's not read like down throw charged up smash as you described. It's a landing trap. You want them to air dodge the arrow. I'm afraid I can't put it any clearer.

Smart player either opts to get hit by the arrow or reacts to arrow with double jump airdodge and now you basically have no followup or much more limited ones than if you simply walked/ran under them. Why would you ever do this if you're trying to actually get the kill?

He does. Maybe not a true trap with Usmash, but if they're out of double jumps and Pit's in the right spot then they'll dodge through Usmash but then get struck by the final hit. Uair most certainly works.

Except Dark Pit's have more risk since you can't reduce the lag effectively. That's an instant advantage you've done a poor job of shrugging off...

So you're saying you want to be right below Pit offstage? If anything it's worth it to rope in opponents for easier Dair spikes... If they don't, then they're getting arrow'd.



They come out on f20/22 ground/aerial or upwards and can act on 59/43 as of 1.1.1. Mario's fireballs start on 17 and can act on 53, at least on 1.0.4. How's that slow?

Aerial Arrow -> U-air trap really only works if your opponent literally doesn't touch the control stick...so Dark Pit being more limited in this is pretty irrelevant lol.

Pit's D-air is not extremely fast, and he has to hit you in a very specific position to spike you with D-air. Recovering low against him is extremely preferable anyway. Especially since the time you spent shooting arrows is also time you aren't chasing offstage

Arrows have 39 frames of lag time on the ground. That's generally significantly more commitment than airdodge and a lot of time you aren't abusing mobility. The frames on air arrows are better but with Pit's air mobility, you don't really get anything from it.

Mario fireballs are horrible for traps lol, you're not proving your point in any way with that example

 

[momochuu]

no n-air escape option against up-tilt chains or pseudo-combos, which are particularly effective on fastfallers.

that's actually not true at all. he can block basically every utilt string after the first hit at low percents because he hits the ground too fast, and he can also just shadow sneak out of almost every combo like that anyway.

 

[Browny]

Browny There's also secret option 4. Greninja is solo viable and Sheik is just his worst MU.

See now this I can agree with, if you go to the top of this page and see the 10 quotes I had about Greninja, you'll see what we see often in this thread, which is that Greninja is not solo viable.

That is what I've had enough of. If people wanna say Greninja is a high tier character, I'm not gonna care. The issue is when people say a character is made utterly unviable because of one matchup, a matchup that is NO WHERE NEAR bad enough to warrant a character being unviable.

This is not Brawl DDD vs DK.

I can fully believe that shiek is greninjas worst matchup, but is not enough to make him unviable because by that logic about 50 characters in this game would be unviable since they have literally the exact same probelm greninja does.