Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

I actally saw somewhere that the sour-spot on his dair is the strongest sourspot in the game. Not sure if that's true or not though...

Falcon's sour spot (nipple hitbox) Dair is probably stronger. At least in any relevant percent ranges with the base knockback. It's actually really stupid. That nipple Dair should have the same KB values as the feet Dair.

Relative to sourspots, Ganondorf's D-Air does 17% damage on sourspot, F-Air does 17% with a sourspot, B-Air does 16% on sourspot. Captain Falcon's sourspot deals 14% damage like his legs do (though I'm looking at info from SSBWiki). But the most powerful sourspot attack in terms of damage and probably knockback is Ganondorf's Up Smash sourspot, which deals 21% damage (compared to 24% if it was sweetspotted); it deals 29% damage fully charged and thus becomes the most powerful sourspot in the game in damage and KB.

But between Down Aerials, Ganondorf has the most powerful in terms of meteor and sourspot.
But overall, Ganondorf's Up Smash sourspot wins the argument.

 

[Pressio]

Can someone explain me, why we purposely ignore the fact that the most shiek players have an much higher skill level than the player that are playing low or mid tier characters? (like in our discussion: Shiek vs Greenninja)

For example: Zero , Dabuz, Mew2king, Nairo etc ( all good smashers with a long smash history= much experience )

 

[Rizen]

Can someone explain me, why we purposely ignore the fact that the most shiek players have an much higher skill level than the player that are playing low or mid tier characters? (like in our discussion: Shiek vs Greenninja)

For example: Zero , Dabuz, Mew2king, Nairo etc ( all good smashers with a long smash history= much experience )

Top players use characters who will win more so that Sheik attracts skilled players more than other characters. Sheik's the best. Before Diddy was patched Zero used him. I know Nario has used Zelda as his low tier but she's just not a good character. I could be wrong but didn't M2K use DK?

 

[Blobface]

Can someone explain me, why we purposely ignore the fact that the most shiek players have an much higher skill level than the player that are playing low or mid tier characters? (like in our discussion: Shiek vs Greenninja)

For example: Zero , Dabuz, Mew2king, Nairo etc ( all good smashers with a long smash history= much experience )

Well that won't be totally universal, but I think I know what you mean.

Which Sheiks has Some been losing to? If he's losing to Mr. R/Vinnie level Sheiks it doesn't show much. If he's losing to random, average Sheiks, then it truly is that bad of a matchup.

Also, I checked the hitbox data and Ganondorf's sourspot Dair is slightly stronger than Falcon's. Falcon's might be stronger with rage though, since it has better knock back values (20 more base knockback).

 

[Tri Knight]

Top players use characters who will win more so that Sheik attracts skilled players more than other characters. Sheik's the best. Before Diddy was patched Zero used him. I know Nario has used Zelda as his low tier but she's just not a good character. I could be wrong but didn't M2K use DK?

M2K was actually into Charizard at one point as well but I'm certain hes not anymore.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

M2K was actually into Charizard at one point as well but I'm certain hes not anymore.

No, pretty sure M2K still has Charizard in his list, but he doesn't use him at tournaments because of Shiek and Diddy putting out a more profitable performance.

If we had customs default, it's pretty likely he could add Zard to his mains list; M2K seems to have quite a bit of fun with using Charizard in online matches, and Customs Zard is a lot better than Default Zard.

 

[teddystalin]

@Browny
If you look at the results that DO exist, you see Some losing to 2 Sheiks at Umebura FAT and a rando Sheik (no disrespect; as rando as you get in top 32) in Umebura 19. Daiki knocked him out but it's not too hard to stomach him losing to a player of that caliber. And on a lower more personal level of gameplay Greninja players seem to lose to Sheik more than any other character. So, the results do point to Sheik being his major roadblock. Does she warrant the amount of complaining from Fullmoon and others (including myself prepatch), probably not. But there's a clear correlation that she was his biggest problem prepatch and the biggest thorn in his side.

Well that won't be totally universal, but I think I know what you mean.

Which Sheiks has Some been losing to? If he's losing to Mr. R/Vinnie level Sheiks it doesn't show much. If he's losing to random, average Sheiks, then it truly is that bad of a matchup.

The "rando Sheik" he lost to at Umebura 19 was Shu, who's ranked #6 on the latest Umebura ranking. Compare/contrast with Daiki, who's ranked 13th. Shu also ultimately placed 2nd at that tournament. Some got knocked into losers at Umebura F.A.T. by Rain and eliminated by Nietono (#2 and #8 respectively.) Some is a valiant wi-fi warrior and the best Greninja in the world, but it's hard to argue that he's been losing exclusively because of the MU and not because he's up against players who are on a higher level.

Edit: I also don't think Nietono switched off Diddy in Umebura FAT. Paging @Djent

 

[Zannabluke]

sethlon's roy climbed up to losers semis in that tourneylocator 1k tourney but he got 3-0'd by a rob

finally a spark of hope for this good character tho??

 

[wedl!!]

Roy's combo game is very... all right. Before around 60% he gets good leverage off of Dthrow/Jab, but he doesn't have a safe 50/50 past then (Flare Blade is the best he can really get, and that move is not nearly as good as Shuttle Loop or Boost Kick, nor as safe.). All he can do is hope for random Usmash/Fsmash/Up-B baits to hit (which aren't nearly as safe as they sound).

Disadvantage is hard for Roy: he's easy to juggle due to lacking landing options and being very fast falling+heavy. Offstage this character sucks. The only threat he could possibly be is getting a hilter bair/fair, which aren't free. His recovery is pretty bad; its only saving grace is its high knockback and armor on startup.

What makes Roy not totally mediocre is the fact that his footsie game is superb. Being that mobile with such good poking game is a godsend, but he isn't totally safe. To do real damage, Roy has to get hilters which require him to be in your face. His approach game also suffers a bit from his lack of shield pokes outside of hilter jab/hilter dtilt/nair/grab.

Then comes another problem: long-range. Roy is the only swordsman who isn't capable of staying back and walling you. This combined with his lack of true safety on shield except at very close range forces him to play a weave-in style where he constantly has to try to outbox you. If his normals don't do work in neutral, he sucks. Against characters with long range? You're screwed.

Summary: play Ike if you want to win, he's similar but better. He trades mobility for more range and no sourspot+fast moves with silly damage per hit. Roy is great at footsies but average or worse at everything else.

 

[Ffamran]

Roy's combo game is very... all right. Before around 60% he gets good leverage off of Dthrow/Jab, but he doesn't have a safe 50/50 past then (Flare Blade is the best he can really get, and that move is not nearly as good as Shuttle Loop or Boost Kick, nor as safe.). All he can do is hope for random Usmash/Fsmash/Up-B baits to hit (which aren't nearly as safe as they sound).

Disadvantage is hard for Roy: he's easy to juggle due to lacking landing options and being very fast falling+heavy. Offstage this character sucks. The only threat he could possibly be is getting a hilter bair/fair, which aren't free. His recovery is pretty bad; its only saving grace is its high knockback and armor on startup.

What makes Roy not totally mediocre is the fact that his footsie game is superb. Being that mobile with such good poking game is a godsend, but he isn't totally safe. To do real damage, Roy has to get hilters which require him to be in your face. His approach game also suffers a bit from his lack of shield pokes outside of hilter jab/hilter dtilt/nair/grab.

Then comes another problem: long-range. Roy is the only swordsman who isn't capable of staying back and walling you. This combined with his lack of true safety on shield except at very close range forces him to play a weave-in style where he constantly has to try to outbox you. If his normals don't do work in neutral, he sucks. Against characters with long range? You're screwed.

Summary: play Ike if you want to win, he's similar but better. He trades mobility for more range and no sourspot+fast, high DPH. Roy is great at footsies but average or worse at everything else.

Little nitpick: Roy's Blazer only has armor when used on the ground like Ganondorf's Warlock Punch. Its main advantage is its ability to angle unlike Marth's Dolphin Slash which is fixed.

 

[L9999]

Little nitpick: Roy's Blazer only has armor when used on the ground like Ganondorf's Warlock Punch. Its main advantage is its ability to angle unlike Marth's Dolphin Slash which is fixed.

Even if it had armor, Roy's recovery would still be terrible and easy to gimp.

 

[Vipermoon]

Little nitpick: Roy's Blazer only has armor when used on the ground like Ganondorf's Warlock Punch. Its main advantage is its ability to angle unlike Marth's Dolphin Slash which is fixed.

Thanks I was going to make a post about the armor except Marth's DS can be angled straight up, normal, and sideways.

 

[Prometheus16]

Relative to sourspots, Ganondorf's D-Air does 17% damage on sourspot, F-Air does 17% with a sourspot, B-Air does 16% on sourspot. Captain Falcon's sourspot deals 14% damage like his legs do (though I'm looking at info from SSBWiki). But the most powerful sourspot attack in terms of damage and probably knockback is Ganondorf's Up Smash sourspot, which deals 21% damage (compared to 24% if it was sweetspotted); it deals 29% damage fully charged and thus becomes the most powerful sourspot in the game in damage and KB.

But between Down Aerials, Ganondorf has the most powerful in terms of meteor and sourspot.
But overall, Ganondorf's Up Smash sourspot wins the argument.

Ok, thanks...

I think that when Sheik gets nerfed, people will focus a little bit less on her...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, thanks...

I think that when Sheik gets nerfed, people will focus a little bit less on her...

You living in a dream.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think that when Sheik gets nerfed, people will focus a little bit less on her...

Yeah, I'm sure they'll do something drastic to her like decreasing utilt damage by 1% or something.

 

[Zelder]

Yeah, I'm sure they'll do something drastic to her like decreasing utilt damage by 1% or something.

Well yes, but what if they *looooooong effort post about nerfing shiek that involves changing things that Nintendo isn't going to change*




There, I saved us about 30 tedious posts.

 

[Prometheus16]

You living in a dream.

Yeah, I'm sure they'll do something drastic to her like decreasing utilt damage by 1% or something.

Well yes, but what if they *looooooong effort post about nerfing shiek that involves changing things that Nintendo isn't going to change*




There, I saved us about 30 tedious posts.

You guys don't think she'll get nerfed at all?

 

[Antonykun]

You guys don't think she'll get nerfed at all?

Sheik has gone through sooooooooooo many patches with either small or no nerfs (excluding the 3ds balance patch) that I doubt she'll be nerfed into oblivion ever

she will forever take greninja to win screen without even having to fight

 

[DunnoBro]

Uh... Some gets roadblocked by Sheik in Umebura, like, severely roadblocked, constantly.

Not true, he gets roadblocked by better characters.

http://challonge.com/users/juddy96

Among the translated brackets some participated in, there's only one example of him being roadblocked hard by sheiks, and those are rain/nietono who'd probably beat him regardless of character. He loses to ness, mega man, and diddy kongs as well.

Hate to tell you guys this but even if sheik weren't around greninja would be about the same level of viability as he is now

Also I can't speak for all Greninja mains but Techei from Xanadu thinks the mu is 55:45 at worst. (MD/VA Sheiks are bad imo tho)

 

[Prometheus16]

Sheik has gone through sooooooooooo many patches with either small or no nerfs (excluding the 3ds balance patch) that I doubt she'll be nerfed into oblivion ever

she will forever take greninja to win screen without even having to fight

Yeah, I suppose so...

It is possible though that they just haven't completely figured out how to nerf her a good amount while still making her viable in tournaments.

I mean, the ultimate goal that Sakurai has is to make it so that if you play your cards right, you'd be able to beat any character with any character (however possible that is....).

 

[DunnoBro]

Honestly sheik is probably the best character to keep at the top.

With her gone, less technical and more gimmicky characters like Ness, ZSS, and Sonic will become the norm and that'd be awful for the game.

I think we really are about at the point where we just need to focus on characters being able to deal with the better characters rather than removing the better characters.

(And removing dumb stuff + rewarding general smart play more but no pure nerfs)

 

[Nobie]

Here's Abadango's Mewtwo on For Glory from about an hour ago: http://www.twitch.tv/abadango/v/20642749?t=1h51m50s

While it's not tournament play, seeing this I get a sense of why the Japanese rate Mewtwo so highly. He just seems capable of doing *STUFF*.

 

[Trifroze]

I think at this point it's pretty fair to say the current Sheik is the weakest top character in any Smash and I'd go as far as to claim that for the sake of avoiding a constant nerf cycle she doesn't need any more nerfs. Right now the gap in potency between her and ZSS may not be any bigger than the gap between ZSS and Rosalina/Sonic or the gap between Rosalina/Sonic and Mario/Diddy/Ryu/Fox/Ness and so on. The groups of similar potency get bigger and bigger as we go further down the perceived viability list not necessarily because of increased balance between them but because of the gradual lack of focus and insight when we look at less and less viable characters.

If Sheik gets nerfed for the reason that she's a bit better than the next character and everyone below that, this same reasoning can carry on forever and therefore it's flawed. Arguably Sheik, ZSS and maybe Rosalina or even Sonic could get minor adjustments into something that matters lowering them into the big stack placed around Mario we have no clear consensus about, but even then chances are that clear winners and losers would emerge even amongst that group once more development and insight is put into those characters. I'd be surprised to see any considerable changes now that aren't buffs to clearly inferior characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You guys don't think she'll get nerfed at all?

Remember that one time they decreased damage and knockback of her dtilt? That's all you gonna get!

 

[LancerStaff]

Smart player either opts to get hit by the arrow or reacts to arrow with double jump airdodge and now you basically have no followup or much more limited ones than if you simply walked/ran under them. Why would you ever do this if you're trying to actually get the kill?

Aerial Arrow -> U-air trap really only works if your opponent literally doesn't touch the control stick...so Dark Pit being more limited in this is pretty irrelevant lol.

Pit's D-air is not extremely fast, and he has to hit you in a very specific position to spike you with D-air. Recovering low against him is extremely preferable anyway. Especially since the time you spent shooting arrows is also time you aren't chasing offstage

Arrows have 39 frames of lag time on the ground. That's generally significantly more commitment than airdodge and a lot of time you aren't abusing mobility. The frames on air arrows are better but with Pit's air mobility, you don't really get anything from it.

Mario fireballs are horrible for traps lol, you're not proving your point in any way with that example

And extra damage Dark Pit most certainly isn't getting doesn't count for anything? If they double jump, I'm repeating the whole process. Their dash speed plus frame 4 jumpsquat makes their airspeed irrelevant in this situation, and Fair and Bair exist.

It's specific, but I can hit with it at least 90% of the time. Go ahead and hope that the Pit in the matchup will screw up, but in actual serious discussion you should be assuming he'll get the spike. And Fair and Bair stage spikes exist.

And? Don't have a reason to shoot on the ground. Jumping isn't some crazy commitment either.

Luigi fireballs can be acted out of frame 44, at least at one point in the past. Pit's arrows can be acted out of faster then Luigi fireballs... Let it sink in.

 

[Prometheus16]

Honestly sheik is probably the best character to keep at the top

What exactly makes you say that?

Remember that one time they decreased damage and knockback of her dtilt? That's all you gonna get!

Hmm, I personally disagree Gheb...

She may just need the smallest of nerfs in a few key aspects, and that'll bring her on equal footing with rest of the cast [once/if the rest of the cast gets balanced to near-perfection (which, if it is possible, is most likely years away....)].

I think at this point it's pretty fair to say the current Sheik is the weakest top character in any Smash and I'd go as far as to claim that for the sake of avoiding a constant nerf cycle she doesn't need any more nerfs. Right now the gap in potency between her and ZSS may not be any bigger than the gap between ZSS and Rosalina/Sonic or the gap between Rosalina/Sonic and Mario/Diddy/Ryu/Fox/Ness and so on. The groups of similar potency get bigger and bigger as we go further down the perceived viability list not necessarily because of increased balance between them but because of the gradual lack of focus and insight when we look at less and less viable characters.

If Sheik gets nerfed for the reason that she's a bit better than the next character and everyone below that, this same reasoning can carry on forever and therefore it's flawed. Arguably Sheik, ZSS and maybe Rosalina or even Sonic could get minor adjustments into something that matters lowering them into the big stack placed around Mario we have no clear consensus about, but even then chances are that clear winners and losers would emerge even amongst that group once more development and insight is put into those characters. I'd be surprised to see any considerable changes now that aren't buffs to clearly inferior characters.

I'm curious, how long did it take for the final tier lists for 64, Melee, and Brawl to be made after the respective games came out?



(Btw, if I leave for an extended amount of time, it's because I'm in school.)

 

[Mario766]

So I've been watching 9B play Noji a lot on Ranai's stream. It may not be tournament matches, but the matches and the MU, Ike vs Ryu, look pretty even. It might be slightly in ones favor. Ike gets lots of strings on Ryu due to his heavy weight and decent fall speed, and Ryu strings Ike for the same reasons. Ryu doesn't get an up tilt lock very well on Ike, or 9B doesn't do it very well. Ike gets kill confirms off throws at about 100, but Shoryu kills at 90. Ike does better with edgeguarding, down air beats Shoryu with the 2 frame but Ryu can go pretty low to bait Ike into down airing, Eruption is surprisingly useless. I think Ike can back air Tatsu as well like Sonic does, so that shouldn't be a problem for us.

I'd say about even but they both do well when the other is in disadvantage.

Emblem Lord probably has more to say about it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ike wins.

I'm done.

..........

What?

 

[DunnoBro]

What exactly makes you say that?

Exactly what I said in the rest of the post.

 

[Mario766]

Ike wins.

I'm done.

..........

What?

Kool

 

[Prometheus16]

Exactly what I said in the rest of the post.

Okay, let me ask about something else...

With her gone, less technical and more gimmicky characters like Ness, ZSS, and Sonic will become the norm and that'd be awful for the game.

What makes you say that?

 

[Antonykun]

Okay, let me ask about something else...


What makes you say that?

idk about you but i don't want to be in a meta where the most prominent thing is people being afraid of Ness's back throw

 

[Boney]

idk about you but i don't want to be in a meta where the most prominent thing is people being afraid of Ness's back throw

Uhhhh yeah that's not gonna happen just because Shiek gets nerfed. Shiek isn't the one keeping all the other top tiers in check from dominating the metagame. She dominates top tiers and strongly dominates mid tiers making them irrelevant mostly and that's the issue.

Just nerf her ****ing needles, remove the hitstun and remove the invincibility frames from vanish. She'd still be the best in the game but at least she'd be a little more manageable.

 

[Rikkhan]

Speaking of dairs, I never realized mario dair was soo strong until I tested this combo.

 

[DunnoBro]

Okay, let me ask about something else...


What makes you say that?

Because they are the least flawed characters from a meta perspective after sheik.

Uhhhh yeah that's not gonna happen just because Shiek gets nerfed. Shiek isn't the one keeping all the other top tiers in check from dominating the metagame. She dominates top tiers and strongly dominates mid tiers making them irrelevant mostly and that's the issue

Sheik isn't dominating anything. Only ZeRo is, there's no other sheiks coming anywhere near "dominating" the meta.

To put it in a somewhat anecdotal perspective, of the top 10 Wii U ranked players, only TWO use sheik. And of the top 30, five.

We'd be saying the exact same thing about ZSS if ZeRo didn't exist.

 

[meleebrawler]

Speaking of dairs, I never realized mario dair was soo strong until I tested this combo.

Just another testament to how scary facing an enraged Mario is when you yourself are at high percents is (then again there was likely no DI but still). Suddenly half of his moves gain legitimate KO potential while still being really fast.

 

[Locke 06]

Sheik isn't dominating anything. Only ZeRo is, there's no other sheiks coming anywhere near "dominating" the meta.

We'd be saying the exact same thing about ZSS if ZeRo didn't exist.

You wouldn't be saying this if you lived in a region with a dominant Sheik. :'(

 

[DunnoBro]

You wouldn't be saying this if you lived in a region with a dominant Sheik. :'(

I'll admit md/va sheiks are booty but the meta isn't defined by a single region and even at mid-level sheik is not dominating.

@ Rage Dair: Unfortunately since the dair is so diable it's difficult to actually kill with it off a straight combo or cross-up. The opponent has to have little horizontal momentum and if they have a dragon punch you can get punished pretty hard for trying it.

It does however kill off air dodge reads, fair/dair popups at high percents, and platform dthrows. It DOES also true combo off RAR Uair(or a uair that just hit with the behind hitbox) into kills, and you might be able to do it off dthrow but I haven't tested it in-depth.

I just know rar uair > dair registers as a true combo with no di in training mode and has a set-up off dthrow if they don't air dodge directly after it(Which if they do air dodge and it gets read is death anyway) Generally these at least open the gateway to frame traps in my experience but since this is essentially a rage mode only combo it's difficult to test.

The alternative is dthrow > dair to punish no air dodge > quickly get atop a platform > try for a 50/50 with super jump punch. Dair puts them at the exact angle for that

 

[Ffamran]

Thanks I was going to make a post about the armor except Marth's DS can be angled straight up, normal, and sideways.

Yeah, but can't Blazer be angled more than Dolphin Slash? Dolphin Slash would be a bit more like PM Wolf Flash while Blazer's a bit more like Launch Star.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, but can't Blazer be angled more than Dolphin Slash? Dolphin Slash would be a bit more like PM Wolf Flash while Blazer's a bit more like Launch Star.

Yep, although DS doesn't lose like half it's height when angled. Aiming back gives it a bit more height, but forward I think doesn't reduce height by anything significant.