Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[YerTheBestAROUND]

the only truly bad dairs are... ...Little Mac's (duh).

Mac's dair is actually rather useful, even off stage. Along with Mac's fair, it's useful for gimping characters with more linear recoveries, like Mario for example. Though I suppose I shouldn't been exposing some of the secret Air Mac techniques..

Mac's dair is also good for jab locking. Now you're probably thinking, just tech, but let's be honest, who's really gonna tech every single time the get to the ground. It's not unreasonable to say you'll miss a tech occasionally, Macs just have to be ready for when you do.

 

[Mario766]

You pretty much described every Dair in the game.

Not all D-Airs throw you straight into the ground, force you to undergo over 30+ seconds of landing lag and is easily punishable while not covering your sides.

That's Link's down air.

 

[Rizen]

Not all D-Airs throw you straight into the ground, force you to undergo over 30+ seconds of landing lag and is easily punishable while not covering your sides.

That's Link's down air.

No, Link's Dair does not throw you strait into the ground. You're thinking of Toon Link's Dair.

 

[Mario766]

No, Link's Dair does not throw you strait into the ground. You're thinking of Toon Link's Dair.

It can, even if he doesn't it's still not a move that you'd use over his other aerial options because it still has 30+ landing lag and leaves you free to be punished.

 

[Nobie]

Have you seen the hitbox on Link's dair that seems to hit you with invisible non-parts of his sword, has application as an anti-anti-air, and can be safe on shield in some circumstances?

Like, this is way back in the early days of Smash 4 but ZeRo did a video on the Link vs. Diddy matchup during the hoo hah era. While he argued that the match was clearly in Diddy's favor, one thing that Link could count on was being able to challenge that old monstrous up-air head on and come out the winner. That move still exists, and hasn't been changed, even as Diddy's up-air lost its power and range. It basically makes trying to juggle Link easier said than done unless your name is like, Mega Man or Dedede.

 

[Rizen]

It can, even if he doesn't it's still not a move that you'd use over his other aerial options because it still has 30+ landing lag and leaves you free to be punished.

It's a move that you'd use offstage or to recover down because it has 50 strait frames of disjointed attack in front of and bellow Link that starts with a meteor then turns into a 15% attack with more upwards launch power than his Uair (but slightly less KBG). Pair that with Link's incredible FF speed and he can start Dair early, wait until the right moment then drop with 50 frames of attack if the opponent trys to jump up at Link. It also bounces projectiles like Samus' charge shot and shields.
Link has a good Dair, you just don't SH it on stage.

 

[Wintropy]

What gets me about Link's d-air is that it bounces off of shields.

Does that have any practical application beyond "psych, I'm still going!" or is it just a useful trick for catching shield-happy fighters?

 

[TDK]

What gets me about Link's d-air is that it bounces off of shields.

Does that have any practical application beyond "psych, I'm still going!" or is it just a useful trick for catching shield-happy fighters?

If your opponent drops their shield after you bounce off the first time, you can hit them with it. Of course, if you're Sheik and Link bounces off your shield, it's a free sweetspot Up-Smash.

 

[Rizen]

What gets me about Link's d-air is that it bounces off of shields.

Does that have any practical application beyond "psych, I'm still going!" or is it just a useful trick for catching shield-happy fighters?

Bouncing give it more air-time to end and not have landing lag.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Wasn't Links Dair a stall then fall in brawl? Or was it always like it was now?
And man that move is so good at ledge guarding O.o

 

[KirbySquad101]

Wasn't Links Dair a stall then fall in brawl? Or was it always like it was now?
And man that move is so good at ledge guarding O.o

The move was pretty much like how it was since Smash 64. Sooooo nope.

Toon Link's stalled-then-fall was in Brawl, though.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Well if we're talking about certain characters moves, how about we do ones that have Insane priority or for whatever reason have the ability to OHKO because of their ridiculous BKB.
Peachs UpB is one, I remember seeing one for Mario, but that was near the top blast zone, I think Samus is capable as well.

Seriously Peachs UpB peats Soooooo many things.
Kirbys Final cutter spike is almost very well capable doing it as well

 

[Prometheus16]

Zelda has a noteworthy Adair as well, F14, but it's very strong and doesn't have much end lag and always spikes even with the sourspot, which sometimes leads to a footstool, and on grounded opponents can combo into other attacks if sweet spotted, while also being autocancelable

What do you mean by "autocancelable?"

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

What do you mean by "autocancelable?"

You can autocancel it in a short hop if used immediately after leaving the ground, which is nice

 

[DunnoBro]

Uh actually duck hunt's gunmen do lose/trade with arrows consistently. The quickshot tends to win due to his range/speed but pit's normal range of useage let it challenge 4/5 of them fine in my experience.

Similarly with an absolute long range war vs link. Of course it won't be faster than a fully charged arrow but link isn't launching those non-stop :/

This game actually does have tiers compressed extremely tight and having 3+ inferior tools to an otherwise identical can be enough to drop a character a tier imo.

Funny thing is Sheik has a Ken combo with stall and fall Dair.

Edit: it may not combo. I saw that it was frame 15. Even with that air speed idk if that works.

It works as a frame trap at strict percents. Vinnie does it occasionally when he has a stock lead, I only ever see him gimp with it rather than outright kill though due to the absurdly low percents it needs to be done at.

 

[Prometheus16]

You can autocancel it in a short hop if used immediately after leaving the ground, which is nice

Okay, thanks.

While we're on the subject, what exactly is "cancel" supposed to mean? I've heard it be used in so many different ways that it has no definite meaning....

 

[KirbySquad101]

Okay, thanks.

While we're on the subject, what exactly is "cancel" supposed to mean? I've heard it be used in so many different ways that it has no definite meaning....

Well, auto cancel is its own term, and means to land just before an attack's animation has ended, and without any further input, receive no landing lag from the attack.

Though, next time, if you're wondering what certain terms mean, you should look to the Smash Dictionary first before asking it here. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

 

[TheJolteon]

Does anyone think Luigi is still a great character? I still personally thinks he is still top 10 but every one now thinks that because he lost 1 kill option out of like 9 he's officially bad or something. Im sure though that true Luigi mains will expand his character.
Fun fact N-air for Luigi is a kill move.

 

[wedl!!]

Past patch release day, who the hell ever said Luigi wasn't still great? He's not top 10 anymore, but he's still better than a ton of characters.

To paraphrase our Overlord Shaya , Luigi at this point is this game's Brawl Falco; threatens you with a great projectile, grab game, and stupid good frame data/CQC, but has trouble securing stocks due to his low mobility and lack of setups.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Does anyone think Luigi is still a great character? I still personally thinks he is still top 10 but every one now thinks that because he lost 1 kill option out of like 9 he's officially bad or something. Im sure though that true Luigi mains will expand his character.
Fun fact N-air for Luigi is a kill move.

What other kill confirms does he have? Everything else needs a read. That doesn't suddenly make him bottom tier, but he's out of contention for top

 

[DunnoBro]

What other kill confirms does he have? Everything else needs a read

Dthrow > Bair and air dodge cyclone reads off dthrow. His smashes are also among the best set in the game. After mac and luma crap I don't see many characters having anywhere near the safety or power his smashes do.

I don't think he's top 10 but he's still very viable.

 

[Mario766]

I don't think B-Air works with DI. It didn't really work before the patch, now it DEFINITELY doesn't work.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Dthrow > Bair and air dodge cyclone reads off dthrow. His smashes are also among the best set in the game. After mac and luma crap I don't see many characters having anywhere near the safety or power his smashes do.

I don't think he's top 10 but he's still very viable.

Is back air guaranteed? Does he have anything that combos into his smashes. Don't get me wrong, has certainly still viable, though his bad match up to Sheik makes me question if he's solo viable, and that up smash is a great tool, but Luigi used to be able to grab you at under a hundred and basically always kill you, and now that's not the case, thereby greatly lowering his viability.

 

[FullMoon]

I think Luigi is pretty much in the same position as Greninja, a character who's totally fine but is held back from being solo viable by having a horrible MU with the best character in the game.

 

[DunnoBro]

Is back air guaranteed? Does he have anything that combos into his smashes. Don't get me wrong, has certainly still viable, though his bad match up to Sheik makes me question if he's solo viable, and that up smash is a great tool, but Luigi used to be able to grab you at under a hundred and basically always kill you, and now that's not the case, thereby greatly lowering his viability.

Dthrow > bair is a 50/50

No, he doesn't have free kills off grabs anymore. He has to go for reads like every other character. Also sheik never really died to dthrow > cyclone anyway unless the luigi AND sheik screwed up really bad (both high rage). Unless his overall damage output on fast fallers is reduced, I don't think that MU is notably worse.

I don't think B-Air works with DI. It didn't really work before the patch, now it DEFINITELY doesn't work.

It definitely worked before on mid/fast fallers. Though it was often a 50/50 still (though some characters got stuck in situations where they could air dodge it, suffer landing lag, then get baired again anyway :G)

Timing is more strict now and not very reliable across the cast or all kill percents/positions, but he's still a ridiculously potent character.

 

[Prometheus16]

Well, auto cancel is its own term, and means to land just before an attack's animation has ended, and without any further input, receive no landing lag from the attack.

Though, next time, if you're wondering what certain terms mean, you should look to the Smash Dictionary first before asking it here. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

Oh, okay. Thanks. I'll take a look at it then.

Luigi's up-B OoS is really good if they get too close to you, like with a dash attack or something...

 

[bc1910]

Luigi has more bad MUs to hamper his solo viability than Greninja does. He probably did pre-patch as well. His strengths, though, are still more polarising.

The two characters are in very different situations. They have different reasons for their viability issues. They're only comparable insofar as "X character has shaky solo viability, so does Y character". Which can be said for a ton of characters.

For what it's worth I think Greninja is significantly closer to solo main viability than Luigi, but far less valuable if you just want a pocket to counterpick certain bad MUs.

 

[warionumbah2]

According to the Frog crew, Greninja only gets butt blasted by Sheik. Luigi loses to way more characters now, he wasn't even solo main viable pre patch.

 

[Routa]

Luigi was a strong counterpick character pre-patch. Now he is just a counterpick character in my eyes. He still has some strong tools and if you ask me his players will adapt the same way as Diddy mains adapted.

 

[FullMoon]

Which of Luigi's bad MUs other than Sheik are very common though? Rosalina?

I really don't know myself but for the most part I think a good portion of Luigi's bad MUs were some more rare characters (Greninja, Pac-Man, Megaman, others probably)

Again I really don't know how much worse Luigi's MU chart is now as I don't play him nor do I care much.

 

[Planty]

Which of Luigi's bad MUs other than Sheik are very common though? Rosalina?

In a tournament, most Rosa mains will get weeded out due to her many bad matchups against high tiers, such as Sheik/ZSS, among others. Rosalina also isn't played too much in comparison to Luigi's other bad matchups. The biggest threat Luigi will face at a tournament is probably one of the 500 Sheiks.

EDIT: I actually just noticed that you stated "other than Sheik"....

 

[TDK]

Well, that just happened. I was facing on Dream Land 64. I was at 120%, they were at 100%. I used Parasol and began floating down above the top platform. They jumped, started Vanish, but before the explosion came out, they hit the Parasol and were killed off the top.

I didn't think Parasol had THAT much power.

 

[Speed Boost]

Anyone claiming pit and dark pit are not adjacent in the tier list are suggesting that the game's balance is so tight that the difference in power between two arrows and some knockback on f tilt contains several characters.

By sheer chance, five or more characters landed in the power level between two variations on a projectile, and a touch of knockback on one move.

This is clearly not true. A trick of perspective and over analysis. Take a step back and look at the big picture.

Also the extra control on Pit's arrows is really overrated imo. You don't really hit people with arrows except in situations where they're either committed to something punishable or asleep frankly. They're not hard to dodge on reaction realistically, and the situations where extra control actually gets you more hits in trap situations are pretty rare honestly.

These responses along with many others discounting the differences in the arrows have made me wonder if many of you truly understand the "traps" I was talking about in my OP. Landing traps are what I was referring to, and Pits arrow control allows him the opportunity to execute them in many more situations.

Yes, you can react to and air dodge the arrows. That is the whole point. Having an arrow that can force more air dodges because of greater control means more "frame traps" into up airs and up smashes. It also means an easier time killing, and when you couple that with the side special and front tilt differences you get a version of Pit that is more complete and measurably better than Dark Pit.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Dthrow > bair is a 50/50

No, he doesn't have free kills off grabs anymore. He has to go for reads like every other character. Also sheik never really died to dthrow > cyclone anyway unless the luigi AND sheik screwed up really bad (both high rage). Unless his overall damage output on fast fallers is reduced, I don't think that MU is notably worse.



It definitely worked before on mid/fast fallers. Though it was often a 50/50 still (though some characters got stuck in situations where they could air dodge it, suffer landing lag, then get baired again anyway :G)

Timing is more strict now and not very reliable across the cast or all kill percents/positions, but he's still a ridiculously potent character.

Potent? Yes, nobody is arguing that, but "ridiculously potent"? No. His bad match ups aren't any better, and his good match ups were all weakened. I originally picked up Shiek just to beat Luigi, but now I can beat most of them without too much trouble with just my Sonic. Luigi is no longer a polarizing character in the meta

 

[A2ZOMG]

These responses along with many others discounting the differences in the arrows have made me wonder if many of you truly understand the "traps" I was talking about in my OP. Landing traps are what I was referring to, and Pits arrow control allows him the opportunity to execute them in many more situations.

Yes, you can react to and air dodge the arrows. That is the whole point. Having an arrow that can force more air dodges because of greater control means more "frame traps" into up airs and up smashes. It also means an easier time killing, and when you couple that with the side special and front tilt differences you get a version of Pit that is more complete and measurably better than Dark Pit.

Pit doesn't get Usmash or Uair off arrow airdodge traps. Are you serious?

Doesn't have the airspeed to chase after aerial arrows, doesn't have good enough IASA to run after arrows to chase landings.

The main situation where Pit lands more arrows is literally against air projectile zoning, which is not common in this game.

For catching landings at long range or contesting grounded projectiles, the superior reward on Dark Pits arrows is relevant. This is actually a reasonably common situation.

Also Pit can't edgeguard anyone smart with arrows. He only has enough control to reach common recovery paths when his arrows aren't fully charged, which gives more than enough time to reactively airdodge. So again, the control factor on Pit arrows is overrated and mostly irrelevant. They're too high commitment to be good for starting traps, and for generic projectile wars and catching landings, Dark Pit simply gets more reward.

 

[Pazzo.]

Luigi is no longer polarizing, and shields are less safe.

What's next? Little Mac buffs and hitstun changes?

Sakurai keeps us guessing.

 

[Speed Boost]

Pit doesn't get Usmash or Uair off arrow airdodge traps. Are you serious?

Doesn't have the airspeed to chase after aerial arrows, doesn't have good enough IASA to run after arrows to chase landings.

The main situation where Pit lands more arrows is literally against air projectile zoning, which is not common in this game.

For catching landings at long range or contesting grounded projectiles, the superior reward on Dark Pits arrows is relevant. This is actually a reasonably common situation.

Also Pit can't edgeguard anyone smart with arrows. He only has enough control to reach common recovery paths when his arrows aren't fully charged, which gives more than enough time to reactively airdodge. So again, the control factor on Pit arrows is overrated and mostly irrelevant. They're too high commitment to be good for starting traps, and for generic projectile wars and catching landings, Dark Pit simply gets more reward.

Who is talking about aerial arrows? We are talking about shooting arrows up at your opponent from the ground to get frame trap up airs and up smashes.Yes, it is a thing and it is far from irrelevant.

 

[L9999]

Well, that just happened. I was facing on Dream Land 64. I was at 120%, they were at 100%. I used Parasol and began floating down above the top platform. They jumped, started Vanish, but before the explosion came out, they hit the Parasol and were killed off the top.

I didn't think Parasol had THAT much power.

Yeah, Parasol is that strong. I think it can kill earlier than that.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

H-how can you forget the best D-air in the game?

It ain't Brawl D-air. =\

 

[A2ZOMG]

Who is talking about aerial arrows? We are talking about shooting arrows up at your opponent from the ground to get frame trap up airs and up smashes.Yes, it is a thing and it is far from irrelevant.

You have to be seriously bad to fall for that considering the ftame data on arrows is mediocre. That's nearly as fraudulent as Mario landing Dthrow Usmash on an airdodge read on Battlefield...in short, why would anyone get hit by that?

In fact, why wouldn't you just go straight for the aerial or Usmash when those by themselves can trap dodges and Pit runs fast, something to abuse to stay under your opponent. In fact if it's a Uthrow->arrow followup, Dark Pit also gets more reward if for whatever reason they refuse to airdodge.