Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Prometheus16]

His neutral is much better now with the shield changes

But he is in no way a "jack of all trades" or "all-rounder" character. He is very clearly unique and has several top tier attributes (air speed, jump, shield reliability) along with several bottom tier attributes (grab/combos, recovery, return to neutral options)

All-rounders are characters like Mario, Diddy Kong, Falco, Pits, maybe Greninja who have mobility, kill set-ups, and neutral potency but aren't overly reliant on any single aspect.

Characters like Pikachu, Sonic, and Sheik may seem all-rounded at a glance due to the "can deal with any situation" mentality their designs allow, but they're clearly much more reliant on neutral play than they are kill set-ups or mobility.

Sheik without needles, Sonic without shield cancellable spindash, and pikachu without quick attack are underwhelming characters.



He can't even fish for kills as safely/consistently as most characters. Even post-patch luigi is waaay safer going for reads than yoshi.

Kill set-ups are a bit overrated despite the amount of top tiers that have them. But mario, rosalina, sonic, and pikachu are characters that while lack super consistent kill set-ups throughout a large array of percents/positions, have the ability to safely fish for kills. (Mario's usmash, Sonic's Fsmash, Luma's anything, Pikachu's fsmash/thunder. Along with very potent and consistent e/ldgeguarding from these characters)

Yoshi's safest kill set-up is a spaced fair (and it's really only worth mentioning now as most top tiers could punish it before). All the others you mentioned are VERY unsafe to just fish for in neutral.

But, even DHD has a safe on shield kill set-up. (Two now, actually) The issue is they just aren't consistent or overall safe enough.

What does fishing for kills mean?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mewtwo better than Jiggs? Wut. Plz.

Get off my internets

 

[wedl!!]

I would say that Jiggly is without a doubt bottom 3 at this point IMO.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

What does fishing for kills mean?

Basically hoping to get a read that lets you land a KO move without being able to combo or otherwise hit-confirm into one.

 

[KenMeister]

Didn't the shield nerfs work in her favor, though? I don't play the character much at all tbh, though was aware of her endlag and shield issues pre-patch, so I want to hear input from actual Jigglypuff mains.

 

[DunnoBro]

What does fishing for kills mean?

The best way I can explain it would be:

Exercising specific options that can result in a stock but is in no way guaranteed, and generally can lend yourself to being punished.

Ex. Smashes, Kill moves, or kill set-up moves.

To be particularly efficient at fishing for kills you need to be able to do it while having the risk/reward in your favor.

Ex. Safe on shield/whiff smashes, safe on shield/whiff kill combo starters, and quick, low endlag grabs with a kill throw/kill set-up off throw.

In the context of "fishing for kills" it assumes these moves are used in a way that's guessing they'll connect rather than knowing via a punish or unavoidable situation.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Considering that other bottom tier characters have been receiving buffs EXCEPT her, like Ganon, Zelda, Samus, Palutean, Doc, and ESPECIALLY Wii Fit, it's pretty easy to see Jiggs as being bottom tier at this point.

Problem is, Sakurai seems pretty satisfied with keeping her the way she is; he didn't even bother to fix her ****ty Up-B custom in the 1.1.1 patch, despite the heavy emphasis on balancing customs this time around.

EDIT: Removed the "except Mewtwo" part.

 

[Nobie]

Considering that other bottom tier characters have been receiving buffs EXCEPT her (and Mewtwo), like Ganon, Zelda, Samus, Palutean, Doc, and ESPECIALLY Wii Fit, it's pretty easy to see Jiggs as being bottom tier at this point.

Problem is, Sakurai seems pretty satisfied with keeping her the way she is; he didn't even bother to fix her ****ty Up-B custom in the 1.1.1 patch, despite the heavy emphasis on balancing customs this time around.

Mewtwo has been buffed. He received a boost in knockback growth to down smash and a higher damage forward throw and possibly something with the up smash (I don't think we ever figured out what those hitbox changes meant). I think people tend to forget that those changes happened though, for whatever reason.

 

[Wintropy]

I would say that Jiggly is without a doubt bottom 3 at this point IMO.

I'm still deeply concerned by her inability to threaten shields.

Even with the new shieldstun mechanics, I don't feel endangered if Jiggly tries to approach. Pound is ostensibly a shield-breaker, but the hitlag means you can get half of your shield eaten up and still have enough time to punish her OOS.

It's just peculiar design, in my opinion. She's slow and weak on the ground, where she can grab you but will probably never get in range to do; she excels in the air where, except for command grabs, it isn't possible to grab.

I know she has other options besides floating over and trying to beat on your shield, but otherwise she seems to suffer from the same fundamental inability to approach that Kirby does. Kirby has some degree of speed and reward for getting in, Jiggly doesn't have that beyond f-air wall of pain and maybe Rest (which, incidentally, can be punished even if it connects).

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm still deeply concerned by her inability to threaten shields.

Even with the new shieldstun mechanics, I don't feel endangered if Jiggly tries to approach. Pound is ostensibly a shield-breaker, but the hitlag means you can get half of your shield eaten up and still have enough time to punish her OOS.

It's just peculiar design, in my opinion. She's slow and weak on the ground, where she can grab you but will probably never get in range to do; she excels in the air where, except for command grabs, it isn't possible to grab.

I know she has other options besides floating over and trying to beat on your shield, but otherwise she seems to suffer from the same fundamental inability to approach that Kirby does. Kirby has some degree of speed and reward for getting in, Jiggly doesn't have that beyond f-air wall of pain and maybe Rest (which, incidentally, can be punished even if it connects).

Jiggly's entire gameplan is basically just dancing around the opponent in the air until they get frustrated or impatient enough to stop shielding and try to go after her, potentially making mistakes she can rest. Unfortunately even when she does manage to do this she still has to contend with her abysmal range and lowest weight making all trades very harmful to her.

 

[Xandercosm]

I think Jiggly's whole design is flawed. Maybe in the next patch they should try to rework her. Maybe a little more range, maybe rest should kill earlier since getting hit by that is rare anyway. The only thing is, I feel like the casuals would be upset with changes like that. Jigglypuff is already a menace to people who play casually because they have no idea how to escape rest other than running away. I know we don't usually bring casual players into the discussion but I think it matters with characters like this that have a very unbalanced moveset for casual play. Remember, Sakurai is trying to cater to both.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think Jiggly's whole design is flawed. Maybe in the next patch they should try to rework her. Maybe a little more range, maybe rest should kill earlier since getting hit by that is rare anyway. The only thing is, I feel like the casuals would be upset with changes like that. Jigglypuff is already a menace to people who play casually because they have no idea how to escape rest other than running away. I know we don't usually bring casual players into the discussion but I think it matters with characters like this that have a very unbalanced moveset for casual play. Remember, Sakurai is trying to cater to both.

No move represents "nerfed to make it less abusable for casual players" better than Din's Fire IMO.

 

[Wintropy]

I just don't think her "secret weapon" is even that threatening.

With Little Mac, you have to play very careful footsies with him because a single jab or d-tilt can confirm into KO Punch.

With Wario, the entire dynamic of the match changes when you know he has the Waft prepared.

Even weaker characters with "charge shots", i.e. Samus and Mewtwo, demand respect when their neutral-b is ready to go (unless you have a reflect or absorb option, but even the reflect option can be deadly if Mewtwo's quick on the trigger). Even shielding it comes with the risk of getting your shield broken or severely weakened.

With Jiggly, there's isn't that much to worry about. Yeah, Rest can end your stock at about 40% if she gets the hard read, but (and correct me if I'm wrong here) it has no definitive confirms and, if you're on your first stock, a standard off-blastzone kill still gives you ample time to get off of the respawn platform and punish Jiggly for landing the move.

If she misses, well, that's pretty much her stock gone. No other character with a move as powerful as Rest has that kind of risk / reward ratio, since missing KO Punch or Waft means, at worst, you're back to square one. Mac isn't compromised by whiffing KO Punch, he's still a demon in footsies, and Wario is a very strong character even if the Waft is his golden ticket.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but I just don't see how Jiggly's gameplan is sustainable in the realms of high-level play. I can't think of anything about her that I am frankly threatened by.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Come on, buffing rest is not a good idea. It's better to have characters be decent because of qualities rather than because they can employ a gimmick kill which you have to constantly watch out for.

 

[Steelballray]

I just don't think her "secret weapon" is even that threatening.

With Little Mac, you have to play very careful footsies with him because a single jab or d-tilt can confirm into KO Punch.

With Wario, the entire dynamic of the match changes when you know he has the Waft prepared.

Even weaker characters with "charge shots", i.e. Samus and Mewtwo, demand respect when their neutral-b is ready to go (unless you have a reflect or absorb option, but even the reflect option can be deadly if Mewtwo's quick on the trigger). Even shielding it comes with the risk of getting your shield broken or severely weakened.

With Jiggly, there's isn't that much to worry about. Yeah, Rest can end your stock at about 40% if she gets the hard read, but (and correct me if I'm wrong here) it has no definitive confirms and, if you're on your first stock, a standard off-blastzone kill still gives you ample time to get off of the respawn platform and punish Jiggly for landing the move.

If she misses, well, that's pretty much her stock gone. No other character with a move as powerful as Rest has that kind of risk / reward ratio, since missing KO Punch or Waft means, at worst, you're back to square one. Mac isn't compromised by whiffing KO Punch, he's still a demon in footsies, and Wario is a very strong character even if the Waft is his golden ticket.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but I just don't see how Jiggly's gameplan is sustainable in the realms of high-level play. I can't think of anything about her that I am frankly threatened by.

That's a very nice way to put things. +1

Would rest be broken if she doesn't have the endlag when she lands it? Can anyone think of a similar scenario?

 

[Zannabluke]

i remember playing my friend's jiggs with the new patch. he managed to break two times my shield with jab>pound and i still won by two stocks (in a 3-stocks game)

she is atrocious

 

[Steelballray]

Come on, buffing rest is not a good idea. It's better to have characters be decent because of qualities rather than because they can employ a gimmick kill which you have to constantly watch out for.

I agree with you mostly. But this game IS gimmicky. LM being the best on stage but dying once he is off is a gimmick. Samus's jabs not comboing is a gimmick, and lucario killing you with a smash at 30% when he has aura is a gimmick. I can go on and on but you get my point. I personally rather see a character be viable due to a gimmick than remain trash forever.

 

[Wintropy]

Who said anything about buffs? It's not my jurisdiction to theorycraft about what would and would not make a character better.

My thesis statement is simply that, here and now, Jiggly isn't a good character and that not even Rest can salvage her fundamental weaknesses.

But I think we've beaten this dead balloon-shaped horse to a sufficient degree.

I have a few friends who believe Dedede is "slept on" and that his frame data and non-existent approach options can be mitigated by his immense strength and ability to finish the stock in a handful of hits. Is there merit to this theory, or is Dedede destined to remain in the bottom-tier camp of "can kill you quickly, but has no reliable means of getting to that stage"?

Something something kill confirms.

Discuss.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Mewtwo has been buffed. He received a boost in knockback growth to down smash and a higher damage forward throw and possibly something with the up smash (I don't think we ever figured out what those hitbox changes meant). I think people tend to forget that those changes happened though, for whatever reason.

I didn't forget, but Mewtwo always got a nerf along with his buffs. So I wasn't sure whether to not to include him.

Up smash's hitbox got neutered to oblivion, and the hitbox duration of one his tilts got reduced, I believed.

 

[Mario766]

Ike can kill faster and more reliably than DDD regardless.

He also doesn't have the same atrocious frame data, better mobility and actual approach options.

DDD isn't slept on.

 

[Wintropy]

Ike can kill faster and more reliably than DDD regardless.

He also doesn't have the same atrocious frame data, better mobility and actual approach options.

DDD isn't slept on.

Agreed, but to be fair, I did paraphrase what they said.

I believe their theory is more so that Dedede is best off played defensively, rather than offensively; essentially a 180 from what he was in Brawl. I believe @Fatmanonice made a good post about this in either this or the old CCI thread.

Even so, I don't think defensive Dedede is a good character. Better, but relative to how weak he is fundamentally. The fact that his best stonewall strategy can be volleyed back to him kind of dismantles whatever competitive use it may have, in my opinion.

 

[irokex13]

Come on, buffing rest is not a good idea. It's better to have characters be decent because of qualities rather than because they can employ a gimmick kill which you have to constantly watch out for.

Rest should totally be buffed, especially when you realize that shoryuken is essentially a better rest. It kills at around the same percents, has way more invincibility, way less ending lag, can be combo'd into, and is on a much heavier character.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I agree with you mostly. But this game IS gimmicky. LM being the best on stage but dying once he is off is a gimmick. Samus's jabs not comboing is a gimmick, and lucario killing you with a smash at 30% when he has aura is a gimmick. I can go on and on but you get my point. I personally rather see a character be viable due to a gimmick than remain trash forever.

Little Mac is one of the most yawn inducing gimmicky characters in the game. Don't like Lucario's mechanics either. I get your point, I'd also rather a character be viable due to a gimmick than just trash. Still too many single gimmick kills from too many characters and the whole game just gets lame : P

It's cool if its layers and layers of gimmicky stuff none of which is really great but the sum of which is hard to respond properly to, like Pacman, or Palutena at her best. But when it's just one damn attack and the whole game gets shaped by it its lame.

Rest should totally be buffed, especially when you realize that shoryuken is essentially a better rest. It kills at around the same percents, has way more invincibility, way less ending lag, can be combo'd into, and is on a much heavier character.

Shoryuken kills are kinda lame, I'd rather Ryu was a little better in general than him running around Shoryukening killing people at ridiculous percents. Two wrongs don't make a right. In any case there's a significant difference in power between the moves.

Really, what Jigglypuff needs is Sonics groundspeed in the air.

Edit: ah crap doublepost, now to see if I can delete post in time to avoid infraction
Edit2: there is no delete option?! **** im screwed

 

[Spinosaurus]

Puff's biggest issue isn't even shields, it's rolling. She absolutely can't do anything if the opponent just chooses to roll back safely.

I can't think of any other character where I can just comfortably roll around the stage against. Her neutral is pretty much non existent.

 

[Mario766]

Agreed, but to be fair, I did paraphrase what they said.

I believe their theory is more so that Dedede is best off played defensively, rather than offensively; essentially a 180 from what he was in Brawl. I believe @Fatmanonice made a good post about this in either this or the old CCI thread.

Even so, I don't think defensive Dedede is a good character. Better, but relative to how weak he is fundamentally. The fact that his best stonewall strategy can be volleyed back to him kind of dismantles whatever competitive use it may have, in my opinion.

Other characters play defensively better than Dedede regardless. Gordos are one of the worst projectiles in the game, and his terrible frame data makes playing defensively harder without a good low-frame option for punishing mistakes. He gets decent damage on hit, but he gets MAYBE 2 hits max. Unlike Ike, who also only gets 2-3 hits at a time, he gets guaranteed combos for a large amount of the time, while Dedede just doesn't. Dedede's best spacing is just at f-tilt range, any farther and he doesn't have any presence, any closer and his really bad frame data makes him weak to CQC.

 

[Browny]

Considering that other bottom tier characters have been receiving buffs EXCEPT her (and Mewtwo), like Ganon, Zelda, Samus, Palutean, Doc, and ESPECIALLY Wii Fit, it's pretty easy to see Jiggs as being bottom tier at this point.

Jiggs is cool, and Mewtwo has got buffs.

Way too many people overlook the 2-3% buff on fthrow. It does 14% fresh, which is equal to or more than many characters' throw combos; palutenas dthrow-uair does 14% and even diddy uthrow-uair-uair only does 16%. Like... just think about that for a minute.

I would rather a character have a very high damage throw than only getting like 1 aerial follow up from a throw that stops working at mid %'s.

Mewtwo's grab rewards were never the worst in the game (that probably belongs to marth/lucina or samus) but now with such a high damaging throw that he isnt afraid to stale (so he can use it at high %s to save the uthrow) his grab reward moved up considerably relative to the rest of the cast and honestly, I'd say is now in the top half of the cast. Seriously just look at how many characters have no grab follow ups at all, stop working at around mid % or do less than 14%.

That buff put it above so many characters' follow ups from throws.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

I apologize for my ignorance, but what do those little plus/minus numbers in parentheses mean?

 

[Prometheus16]

The best way I can explain it would be:

Exercising specific options that can result in a stock but is in no way guaranteed, and generally can lend yourself to being punished.

Ex. Smashes, Kill moves, or kill set-up moves.

To be particularly efficient at fishing for kills you need to be able to do it while having the risk/reward in your favor.

Ex. Safe on shield/whiff smashes, safe on shield/whiff kill combo starters, and quick, low endlag grabs with a kill throw/kill set-up off throw.

In the context of "fishing for kills" it assumes these moves are used in a way that's guessing they'll connect rather than knowing via a punish or unavoidable situation.

Okay, thanks....

......what does whiff mean?

 

[Mario766]

Whiff means miss.

 

[FimPhym]

Ahhhhhh you guys are killing me with this dedede talk. I dunno if any character produces as low level talk as dedede due to sheer lack of experience with the character or if I just know so little about everyone that all the other mains are tearing their hair out at character talk.

Okay so the idea that dedede is bad, but he ends stocks so fast it's okay. Here's the thing: he just doesn't. If you land bair off stage, that kills decently well. Down smash at high percents, though that is hardly safe to just throw out. His up air kills kinda okay, but not at any particularly low percent. There are no kill set ups and his moves do not have Ganon level knockback.

Sheik "has trouble killing" and has risk free 50/50s off grabs before 150% for easy kills. Dedede "has great killing power" and needs either a hard read on stage or to land bair off stage, often requires rage to really add punch to his moves. His jab can kill at like 150 with some rage, but then why are you playing dedede to kill at 150%?

Next up, and maybe the thing I should have addressed as first and only issue with dedede talk: gordos. Holy crap you guys stop please. Gordos being reflectable makes them awful in neutral, we all get it. Likewise, Ike's eruption is bad to use when you're not doing the ledge snap vuln thing. The only difference is when people talk about ike the first thing they say is not "well he seems pretty good but eruption is so easy to punish on stage during neutral". Ahhhh.

Okay so here's the deal. Dedede doesn't have a projectile, and that's okay. What he does have is an independent hitbox that pressures the opponent that he can set up during advantage time. When someone is trying to get up from the edge and you have a gordo bouncing in place, good things happen. When someone is knocked way high in the air, you can throw a gordo to encourage them to drift over you and risk having an air dodge read/being hit by uair, or force them to land behind a gordo. In these situations, you are free to act long before the enemy gets anywhere near the gordo, and they are in disadvantage rather than neutral, so attempts to reflect or dodge the gordo can be read and punished.

That doesn't mean gordos are good or save the character, but just letting you guys know how gordos actually work. The fact that a scrub can get destroyed for spamming gordo in neutral doesn't make dedede a worse character any more than sheik would be weak because it's not safe to spam down smash.

Anyway, dedede is pretty bad and has some awful match ups against the best characters in the game. More than their power level discrepancy, their tools happen to work well to really mess dedede up. Fast rushdown characters can use their threat of projectiles to force a clumsy dedede approach and mercilessly exploit it. These match ups might merely be "tough" if they rushed him down, but instead they dismantle him.

I have some great ideas for subtle and appropriate dedede buffs that keep his neutral game crappy but open up his ability to edge guard more but I don't believe in those posts so I'll just tease you with the concept instead.

Thanks. Sorry.

 

[williamsga555]

I have a few friends who believe Dedede is "slept on" and that his frame data and non-existent approach options can be mitigated by his immense strength and ability to finish the stock in a handful of hits. Is there merit to this theory, or is Dedede destined to remain in the bottom-tier camp of "can kill you quickly, but has no reliable means of getting to that stage"?

Something something kill confirms.

Discuss.

Thing is, Dedede usually doesn't kill all that early, from my experience. He has some moves that can, but not many. Often times I find my opponent living to about 120% or so, which is deffo not super early. He's one of the only super heavyweights that lacks an early-killing tilt (up tilt is fairly strong, but again, doesn't usually finish stocks until later percents) and/or an early-killing throw.

Of his moves that kill early and are at least semi-reasonable to throw out in the match, two of them are almost always stale because they need to be used at other points during the match for damage racking (bair and up air). This basically leaves down smash, f smash (which can only really be used for trap purposes), and edgeguarding in general (which, granted, is pretty good).

Dedede's strengths are in *most* of his hitboxes (d tilt why), his absurd survivability, damage-per-hit, gordos, and grab game. These are cool things to have, and keep him at least usable, but his horrendous frame data and the lack of any sort of answer for projectile camping is going to keep him struggling.


Now if gordo reflect percentage were raised to something like 6-8%...



Just barely beat by FimPhym , lol. Glad to see it!

 

[KirbySquad101]

Jiggs is cool, and Mewtwo has got buffs.

Way too many people overlook the 2-3% buff on fthrow. It does 14% fresh, which is equal to or more than many characters' throw combos; palutenas dthrow-uair does 14% and even diddy uthrow-uair-uair only does 16%. Like... just think about that for a minute.

I would rather a character have a very high damage throw than only getting like 1 aerial follow up from a throw that stops working at mid %'s.

Mewtwo's grab rewards were never the worst in the game (that probably belongs to marth/lucina or samus) but now with such a high damaging throw that he isnt afraid to stale (so he can use it at high %s to save the uthrow) his grab reward moved up considerably relative to the rest of the cast and honestly, I'd say is now in the top half of the cast. Seriously just look at how many characters have no grab follow ups at all, stop working at around mid % or do less than 14%.

That buff put it above so many characters' follow ups from throws.

I refer to you my other reply;

I am well aware Mewtwo got buffed, but he's also been nerfed in some form as well, so I wasn't sure whether or not to count him as buffed or nerfed (seems I made the wrong choice obviously). The stuff about his damage buff to his throw is great and all, but that's not the point I was trying to make. If it's that important of a buff, then I'll cite Mewtwo as buffed then, but I'm talking about Jigglypuff right now.

I was simply saying that since many lower tier characters have been getting buffed except Jiggs, I can see her being bottom tier at this point.

 

[FimPhym]

Yo williamsga555 made my post in half as many words and without going insane. His post is on point, especially needing to stale your safest kill moves because they're so important in neutral. And on dedede's upsides which are super real. I can't swap characters because I feel like half the cast isn't allowed to go off stage and really edge guard, and I'm used to not dying until 150%+ every stock forever always in this "kill off the top" game.

Edit: the one thing I'd add is, 120%?? I wish I always killed by then. If I'm not getting off stage bair or d-smash read they are living til 140-150 easy.

 

[Boney]

The only good things going on for DDD are his throw combos, his weight (and by extension recovery) and his ledge setups. He's too slow to be an actual threat and he has a lot of trouble actually koing due to not actually having many kill moves. At least not ones that are stupidly slow and punishable. It should always be one or the other not both.

 

[williamsga555]

Gordo ledge traps to bair work well...most of the time. ;-;

Otherwise I think up air is usually my most common finisher. It's one of the few completely-and-totally-safe things he can throw out (though it has to be when people are above him, of course). Can anything challenge his up air, out of curiosity?

 

[Blobface]

How did the shield changes affect Dedede? Did Gordos get more stun?

 

[meleebrawler]

I didn't forget, but Mewtwo always got a nerf along with his buffs. So I wasn't sure whether to not to include him.

Up smash's hitbox got neutered to oblivion, and the hitbox duration of one his tilts got reduced, I believed.

So you're telling me a measly 1 frame decrease (to the whole move btw, not just hitbox duration), to one of Mewtwo's least important moves (and only on the up-angled variation as well), is enough to cancel out the benefits of a highly damaging throw and drastically more powerful, low endlag smash?

I don't remember what Usmash was like pre-patch, but I can quite confidently assert it hasn't been "obliterated". It's still good enough to challenge most aerials that aren't swords and catch tall people standing inside Mewtwo. The worst issue is not linking if you just barely graze it, and Megaman has that too.

 

[KirbySquad101]

So you're telling me a measly 1 frame decrease (to the whole move btw, not just hitbox duration), to one of Mewtwo's least important moves (and only on the up-angled variation as well), is enough to cancel out the benefits of a highly damaging throw and drastically more powerful, low endlag smash?

I don't remember what Usmash was like pre-patch, but I can quite confidently assert it hasn't been "obliterated". It's still good enough to challenge most aerials that aren't swords and catch tall people standing inside Mewtwo. The worst issue is not linking if you just barely graze it, and Megaman has that too.

Jesus christ, alright, Mewtwo got buffed, I GET IT. Was the "and Mewtwo" REALLY that much of an eyesore to you that you missed my main point in my original post? Mewtwo has an amazing throw and a better down smash, great, amazeballs, but I REALLY don't want to keep talking about someone I didn't really give a **** talking about in the first place.

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff, I'm not entirely sure how or why you're going to argue under the delusion that characters can't harass Pit trying to recovery unless they're bad or stupid, holy crap.
Yes, Pit's recovery is very good and will allow him to come back in most scenarios, but the assertion that "if Pit could get hit off stage/harassed he'd be one of the worst character in the game"? Come on. You're the one sounding like you're only referencing For Glory anecdotes with that one where people actually reacting to things which are TELEGRAPHED is not reliable.

Pit's up-b has slowish start up. He can't shoot an arrow and have that cover him up-bing to the stage universally by an opponent dodging or clanking with it.

What makes a character actually hard to threaten off stage? Their ability to use counter attacks to protect themselves as an opponent moves to intercept. Sheik's crazy fair [or bair] or difficult to react to + invincible bouncing fish and vanish.
Unfortunately Pit does not have this capability, arrows are helpful but is not a winning ticket and only slows down how quickly Pit can move toward the ledge / give opponents time to cover more of your linear recovery paths.
Neither does Pikachu, actually. Another character who people talk about as if he's infallible recovering.
Neither does Meta Knight, if he doesn't have shuttle loop as an immediate ledge grab option he is vulnerable.

Any character with a fast vertical recovery option with a single forward facing aerial (that includes back airs) that doesn't kill them can harass a hyper majority of recoveries in the game, let alone the ones with no hitboxes nor real rewards gained from an opponent failing to intercept it [like vanish].

No. Dunno what "slowish startup" means to you, but with how fast it goes it's pretty irrelevant. Tell you what, I'll measure how much startup is on Uspecial later. You act as if Pit has to try and slowly float over to the ledge with jumps, fall down, and then recover... Nope, that's idiotic.

Fist off, Pit does not need to drop down much to ledge snap with Uspecial. A character height at most. Just aim sideways and ram his head into the wall and you won't fly past the ledge. Doesn't work on sharkable platforms... But now you have the joy of a Pit who essentially swap ledges at will. When recovering he has two ledges to go for. The benefits outweigh what's lost.

Second, unlike Rosalina, Pit's Uspecial isn't practically alone. It's much stronger combined with his jumps, Fspecial and arrows. (Arrows that can be fired up, mind you.) Only a few characters can actually punish his Fspecial by throwing a projectile at it and hitting him after he bounces up, being Duck Hunt, Ness (due to a quirk with PK Fire), and characters with holdable items off the top of my head. The jumps allow him to reposition or potentially stall.

Third, give me one good reason to be predictable with it. Why can't I Uspecial sideways, climb up the wall, and grab he ledge from behind? How many characters can deal that without being offstage already? So now that you're offstage already and... Oh wait, now he stalls you out, you jump back and he gets the ledge. You see what I mean? Okay, like four characters can throw out a projectile that would stop the quick Uspecial, but the slow ones can be Fspecial'd and actually aid Pit's recovery. Or the projectile is already so weak it doesn't mean anything... Regardless, that's just one strategy to approach the ledge. There's more then that. Many more.

Pit's a royally misunderstood character, his recovery being one of the biggest things to be misunderstood. I don't think you understand... I don't think many Pits even understand yet. If the Pits you're fighting don't understand then of course your opinion of Pit's recovery would be askew.

 

[Ikes]

I would make Rest more canonically accurate and have it heal 15 or so % on use, so a rest kill returns you health but a whiff will still get you a hard punish thatll probably kill you or at the very least kill any gains you got from resting.

on another note, I've found that going frequently for grabs as Wario is hilariously rewarding. His relatively quick grab isnt too difficult to land and you get a meaty 12-10% off of an ofthrow which can end up becoming one of your primary sources of damage. Considering a rage waft can kill you at 30, all he needs to do is land a few fairs, get a meaty fthrow and string something into a waft and your stock is gone like that.

Wario is the king of 2-stocks if you play him right and I love every second of it.