Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

after the patch there are STILL people calling Ryu "arguably upper mid tier if not mid"

like what

Hm? I didn't mean that, if that's what you're saying.

 

[Xandercosm]

A man who's F-Air sounds like he's tearing through the opponent like a piece of paper. No really, that's what Ganondorf's F-Air sounds like and it kind of works that way too.

Yup. It's just too bad that Ganondorf is so slow and has to commit so much on all his moves. He deserves the true power of the dark arts but Nintendo doesn't wanna give him that, I guess...

 

[TTTTTsd]

Unless Ryu wants to get turned into a pin cushion he's not going to get into a position where he can't shield. Pit has full control of arrows offstage, plus the reduced endlag. Even without arrows I'd just trump him. If he does nothing (standing on the ledge basically) then I just Uspecial. The ledge snap makes it easy to avoid anything Ryu can throw out.

Again, Pit would be trash without his recovery being one of the best in the game. Ryu either has to be incredibly lucky or the Pit got himself into that situation by being stupid... Not "bad at the matchup" stupid, but "bad at the character" stupid.

Pit's only two points lighter then Mario. He can afford to make a few mistakes.

I can see it being even, but I'm more inclined for it to be in Pit's favor. Especially if everybody's vision of the "even" matchup features a gimpable Pit.



Guardian Orbitars don't have super armor, it's a special effect that registers Pit as "hit" by the attack without being damaged. Doesn't reflect people either, just shoves them with windboxes.

Impact Orbitars have super armor though, as did his old Mirror Shield Dspecial in conjunction with the other mechanic. In the data though Guardians call for SA but don't specify a frame. Pretty sure it's the only attack that does.



Right, I heard about him (her?) the other day. Like you said, it's hard to fid his sets. And then when you do find them they're always compressed because of Nikoniko.

Mario dies around 80% to SRK with like no rage and Ryu builds ridiculous damage. The reason I don't think Ryu has large problems in this MU is because he gets 4-5 hits and you're in kill zone and he doesn't have to work that hard to seal it with conversions from the neutral. If your character also doesn't have an easy way to take stocks (i.e. one of the large reasons why Ryu beats a lot of people) Ryu is going to hit high rage because he's also heavy, and this is a problem because then kill % becomes like, 60-70 if not a bit lower depending on the ceiling.

Gimping has nothing to do with why I think Ryu doesn't struggle in this MU. It's a matter of reward mostly, and Ryu has a ridiculous amount of it. It's solely that Ryu can make much more mistakes comparatively. I don't think Ryu wins outright but I don't see him having an exceptionally hard time.

(FYI I don't think anyone in the game can gimp Pit (edgeguard maybe but not gimp))

 

[Prometheus16]

Outside of Earth, Nairo, Kiraflax, and Pink Fresh, are there any Pit players that we should be keeping an eye out for?

My friend Eli...

Also guys, I want to bring the topic back to weight for a moment.

Isn't the lightest character in the game?

 

[adom4]

My friend Eli...

Also guys, I want to bring the topic back to weight for a moment.

Isn't the lightest character in the game?

Puff is the lightest, Mewtwo is 2nd.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

My friend Eli...

Also guys, I want to bring the topic back to weight for a moment.

Isn't the lightest character in the game?

No, that would be .

 

[meleebrawler]

Puff is the lightest, Mewtwo is 2nd.

Also, the game is lying when it says G&W is second and Kirby is third since it didn't update with Mewtwo.

 

[DunnoBro]

Would it be accurate to say that while jigglypuff is lighter, mewtwo's larger frame lends itself to him dying as quick or quicker than her in certain situations? (Akin to how giants die so awkwardly if their hurtbox so much as glances the blastzone)

 

[meleebrawler]

Would it be accurate to say that while jigglypuff is lighter, mewtwo's larger frame lends itself to him dying as quick or quicker than her in certain situations? (Akin to how giants die so awkwardly if their hurtbox so much as glances the blastzone)

I doubt size really affects how close you need to be to blastzone for it to kill you, it's just a visual effect.

You can make a case for Mewtwo having worse survivability than Jigglypuff since he is far easier to hit on average with his bigger size and lacks multiple jumps or a sex kick. But in exchange he has a far more powerful and versatile moveset that is more capable of challenging others (Jiggly pretty much has to dodge everything to even land a hit).

 

[Browny]

Yes they are, in EVERY smash game lol.
Pikachu had no weakness in 64 besides weight, very rounded
In melee, sheik has needles for zoning and can rushdown
Brawl, MetaKnight was everything
Smash 4, sheik is nearly everything besides kill power and damage output, but whatever.
All-arounds are always ahead of everybody when they have everything

Lets see... 1) You've got a lightweight, fast, combo heavy character with a good recovery. 2) A lightweight, fast, combo heavy character with a good recovery. 3) A lightweight, fast, combo heavy character with a good recovery. 4) A lightweight, fast, combo heavy character with a good recovery.

Pretty sure Pikachu, Fox, MK and Sheik are all the same. They are in no way all-rounders.

meleebrawler what are you talking about, mewtwo has a third jump with sideb (which goes higher and faster than any of jigglypuffs jumps mind you) and his nair lasts forever as a sex kick...

DunnoBro I woudn't say so, since jigglypuff needs to risk trading to get any damage. Vs falcon for example, once shes at high % she has literally no option that wont trade with his uair/bair/tilts and will kill her while Mewtwo has a ton of keep-away options to safely do damage while not getting hit.

Being able to avoid KO moves better doesnt really help too much, when you can't damage the enemy at the same time, while losing every trade.

I pretty much main Jpuff and Mewtwo. While I usually live to a higher % with jigglypuff due to being evasive, it is extremely annoying when whatever lead I get evaporates because I cant KO. I die later in %, but its also before I take the enemies stock as oppose to taking their stock first.

As a result, attempting to maintain a lead will end up in me losing the first stock. So I can live to a high % if I want to.... but I'll also risk never getting the KO. If you want to win you have to risk dying earlier. Either trade and take the first stock, or live to 140%, never get the KO and die anyway,

Since the aim of the game is to take stocks before losing your own... It's kind of irrelevant who dies earlier, only who takes the enemies stock before losing their own.

 

[TheJolteon]

Puff is the lightest, Mewtwo is 2nd.

Speaking of which why is mewtwo the 2nd LIGHTEST character in the game. In pokemon he/she it weighed more than charizard.
PS- I think he/she it is the worst in the game

 

[DunnoBro]

This is the first smash you can be balanced/all-round and top tier imo. But the best will always be a cut above the balanced and fair.

Every past smash's top tiers were absolutely oppressive to everyone but each other or very specific characters that might've been able to deal with one of them but not another.

 

[Prometheus16]

I doubt size really affects how close you need to be to blastzone for it to kill you, it's just a visual effect.

You can make a case for Mewtwo having worse survivability than Jigglypuff since he is far easier to hit on average with his bigger size and lacks multiple jumps or a sex kick. But in exchange he has a far more powerful and versatile moveset that is more capable of challenging others (Jiggly pretty much has to dodge everything to even land a hit).

Yeah, how exactly do the blast-zones even work? Do you just have to touch it, or does the entire character model have to be behind the line to KO?

 

[Vyrnx]

Yoshi is the best example of a jack of all trades imo and is somewhere in the high to top tier range.

 

[meleebrawler]

meleebrawler what are you talking about, mewtwo has a third jump with sideb (which goes higher and faster than any of jigglypuffs jumps mind you) and his nair lasts forever as a sex kick...

A third jump that prohibits Mewtwo from doing anything else like dodging or attacking until it finishes. I'm definitely not denying it's usefulness in evasion but it still doesn't really compare to one of Jiggly's jumps.

Nair doesn't have the range or damage to challenge anything except on it's last hit... if they don't beat it's frame 5 startup to the punch instead. When you land with nair, you're really hoping the opponent won't throw out a move in time.

It's just if you look at things from a strict "not dying" perspective Jigglypuff has the edge simply by being way smaller and harder to hit. But as you and me said before Mewtwo soundly trumps her when it comes to actually engaging targets due to actually having range on his moves (especially on the ground), and when coupled with Mewtwo's not-quite-as-good but still effective evasion (that short-hop airdodge people) makes him a far more versatile and effective character overall.

 

[KenMeister]

Mewtwo better than Jiggs? Wut. Plz.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Yeah, how exactly do the blast-zones even work? Do you just have to touch it, or does the entire character model have to be behind the line to KO?

If I had to guess based on early Smash 3DS physics with the Yoshi enlarging enemies glitch, I'd guess it's based on when the center of the character model passes it or something similarly weird.

 

[Prometheus16]

This is the first smash you can be balanced/all-round and top tier imo. But the best will always be a cut above the balanced and fair.

Every past smash's top tiers were absolutely oppressive to everyone but each other or very specific characters that might've been able to deal with one of them but not another.

Well, Smash 64 seemed to be the most balanced until number 4 (except for Pikachu, who was top tier).

If I had to guess based on early Smash 3DS physics with the Yoshi enlarging enemies glitch, I'd guess it's based on when the center of the character model passes it or something similarly weird.

Okay, thanks...

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo better than Jiggs? Wut. Plz.

If you think I'm gonna explain myself with an argument like this, think again.

Because really, I'd like to know what makes Jigglypuff SO superior to Mewtwo.

 

[Shaya]

LancerStaff, I'm not entirely sure how or why you're going to argue under the delusion that characters can't harass Pit trying to recovery unless they're bad or stupid, holy crap.
Yes, Pit's recovery is very good and will allow him to come back in most scenarios, but the assertion that "if Pit could get hit off stage/harassed he'd be one of the worst character in the game"? Come on. You're the one sounding like you're only referencing For Glory anecdotes with that one where people actually reacting to things which are TELEGRAPHED is not reliable.

Pit's up-b has slowish start up. He can't shoot an arrow and have that cover him up-bing to the stage universally by an opponent dodging or clanking with it.

What makes a character actually hard to threaten off stage? Their ability to use counter attacks to protect themselves as an opponent moves to intercept. Sheik's crazy fair [or bair] or difficult to react to + invincible bouncing fish and vanish.
Unfortunately Pit does not have this capability, arrows are helpful but is not a winning ticket and only slows down how quickly Pit can move toward the ledge / give opponents time to cover more of your linear recovery paths.
Neither does Pikachu, actually. Another character who people talk about as if he's infallible recovering.
Neither does Meta Knight, if he doesn't have shuttle loop as an immediate ledge grab option he is vulnerable.

Any character with a fast vertical recovery option with a single forward facing aerial (that includes back airs) that doesn't kill them can harass a hyper majority of recoveries in the game, let alone the ones with no hitboxes nor real rewards gained from an opponent failing to intercept it [like vanish].

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

LancerStaff, I'm not entirely sure how or why you're going to argue under the delusion that characters can't harass Pit trying to recovery unless they're bad or stupid, holy crap.
Yes, Pit's recovery is very good and will allow him to come back in most scenarios, but the assertion that "if Pit could get hit off stage/harassed he'd be one of the worst character in the game"? Come on. You're the one sounding like you're only referencing For Glory anecdotes with that one where people actually reacting to things which are TELEGRAPHED is not reliable.

Pit's up-b has slowish start up. He can't shoot an arrow and have that cover him up-bing to the stage universally by an opponent dodging or clanking with it.

What makes a character actually hard to threaten off stage? Their ability to use counter attacks to protect themselves as an opponent moves to intercept. Sheik's crazy fair [or bair] or difficult to react to + invincible bouncing fish and vanish.
Unfortunately Pit does not have this capability, arrows are helpful but is not a winning ticket and only slows down how quickly Pit can move toward the ledge / give opponents time to cover more of your linear recovery paths.
Neither does Pikachu, actually. Another character who people talk about as if he's infallible recovering.
Neither does Meta Knight, if he doesn't have shuttle loop as an immediate ledge grab option he is vulnerable.

Any character with a fast vertical recovery option with a single forward facing aerial (that includes back airs) that doesn't kill them can harass a hyper majority of recoveries in the game, let alone the ones with no hitboxes nor real rewards gained from an opponent failing to intercept it [like vanish].

Pikachu at least has a hitbox (even if it's tiny) and the ability to make non-linear recovery paths for himself. Pit? Not so much lol. Pit's recovery is actually really bad for all the same reasons Rosalina's Launch Star is bad, except Pit's is worse because it has massive startup that makes it really easy for a competent player to stuff it. Especially Ryu, lol. Especially if the Pit player's on his last stock, he can expect a Ryu who meteors him with DAir to immediately follow him over the edge and meet his recovery with a second DAir.

Now if Pit could at least cancel his recovery into aerials or had intangibility early in the move or something it might actually be good, but nope. No idea why Sakurai felt it necessary to replace Pit's old recovery with this piece of garbage, especially since he then basically gave Pit's old Up Special to Villager while R.O.B. kept his as well.

 

[Shaya]

It's not garbage, most characters put into positions Pit can recover from have no chance whatsoever and they're not that uncommon. He still has side-b for stage height recovering which is quite helpful [it's what allows him to stop the endless loop of being hit while up-bing).
Just to assert that it can't be harassed or that it isn't a match up consideration most characters would be looking for was way too much to bare though.

 

[Vipermoon]

It doesn't have that much start-up and travels pretty fast. But still I never agreed that Pit was recovering for free. It still isn't that hard to intercept him.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

It's not garbage, most characters put into positions Pit can recover from have no chance whatsoever and they're not that uncommon. He still has side-b for stage height recovering which is quite helpful [it's what allows him to stop the endless loop of being hit while up-bing).
Just to assert that it can't be harassed or that it isn't a match up consideration most characters would be looking for was way too much to bear though.

It's still not great, I mean it mostly does its job but still. Mostly, I just have a personal problem with moves that are only good for recovery with no other combat or mobility applications. And since Power of Flight can't be aimed in any direction without at least a bit of a vertical component and takes so long to start up, it's almost entirely useless as a mobility tool, and its lack of a hitbox or ability to be interrupted with aerials removes all offensive applications as well. Contrast Pit's old Up Special, which could be used to move around the stage or even to go under the stage from one side to the other, and which could be cancelled into aerials for at least some benefit to Pit's offensive game.

Edit: Just to clarify, I still like Pit. I still like playing as Pit, even. That's why I'm still salty about what Sakurai did to his Up Special in Smash 4.

 

[Antonykun]

Neither does Meta Knight, if he doesn't have shuttle loop as an immediate ledge grab option he is vulnerable.

just saying that the height of meta knight's Shuttle Loop is pretty low and with that fast fall speed he can easily reach that point unscathed on most MU's ( i do feel nervous against Marth sometimes), if he needs to recover horizontally then he can teleport there

 

[Steelballray]

Ignore this. Probably nothing and the wrong thread to post it.

 

[Shaya]

just saying that the height of meta knight's Shuttle Loop is pretty low and with that fast fall speed he can easily reach that point unscathed on most MU's ( i do feel nervous against Marth sometimes), if he needs to recover horizontally then he can teleport there

His down-b has less range than Brawl I believe, can't be stealth broken by extending [bug abuse] it on stage for safety in a way no one can discern + also has large-ish start up (he can still be hit during early invisibility).

I just tend to try trading with his shuttle loop as the first hit isn't dangerous + doesn't have any invincibility (usually with your own recovery tool more so than an aerial). Down-B is the "I thought he's going to go lower for shuttle loop recovery but instead he dimension caped" mix up. If someone's already in your face though, MK is definitely not comfortable.

 

[Jehtt]

Ignore this. Probably nothing and the wrong thread to post it.

Edit: Dammit it got edited. How come you can't delete posts on smashboards?!

 

[Amadeus9]

His down-b has less range than Brawl I believe, can't be stealth broken by extending [bug abuse] it on stage for safety in a way no one can discern + also has large-ish start up (he can still be hit during early invisibility).

I just tend to try trading with his shuttle loop as the first hit isn't dangerous + doesn't have any invincibility (usually with your own recovery tool more so than an aerial). Down-B is the "I thought he's going to go lower for shuttle loop recovery but instead he dimension caped" mix up. If someone's already in your face though, MK is definitely not comfortable.

yeah this

Mk doesn't have aerials to escape pressure, general plan with MK offstage if you're being pressured is to fly away and stay off stage as long as possible so that your opponent has to return to stage before you do, then use one of our 3 recovery moves to get back. MK's recovery is good because: multijumps, recovery mixups. Pit tho... 3 jumps and 2 slow, telegraphed recovery moves. I love playing Pit but recovering is not of his strong suits versus a competent player... He can recover from really far tho, so that's good. But it's like jamie said, u can kinda just follow him with spike hitboxes off stage if you're a stock ahead.

 

[Smog Frog]

i have reason to believe that is a legit shieldbreak threat

Shaya can you give me the numbers on his jab/dtilt/fair shieldstun? here are some numbers:

jab:
active on: 5-7 faf: 23 base damage: 7.5/7.5/4.8 bkb: 40/40/32 kbg: 60

fair:
active on: 10-12 faf: 30 base damage: 11/11/11/7 bkb: 50 kbg: 80(plan is to use ded before i hit the ground, so landing lag wouldnt apply here but its 15)

dtilt:
active on: 7-8 faf: 22 base damage: 11/6.5 bkb:50/40 kbg: 40

i'm getting so giddy thinking about it

 

[Ikes]

Yoshi is the best example of a jack of all trades imo and is somewhere in the high to top tier range.

IIRC yoshi has a terrible neutral game though?

if we're looking for potential top tiers, I still think wario takes the cake for having almost everything you need to win in smash

 

[Shaya]

Recoveries like Pits are also easy to follow deep and you can auto-footstool jump them.
Unless the Pit realises he should SD after they know you've gone too far to recover without the footstool otherwise, it's pretty doable.

Think: Snake in Brawl.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Pikachu at least has a hitbox (even if it's tiny) and the ability to make non-linear recovery paths for himself. Pit? Not so much lol. Pit's recovery is actually really bad for all the same reasons Rosalina's Launch Star is bad, except Pit's is worse because it has massive startup that makes it really easy for a competent player to stuff it. Especially Ryu, lol. Especially if the Pit player's on his last stock, he can expect a Ryu who meteors him with DAir to immediately follow him over the edge and meet his recovery with a second DAir.

Now if Pit could at least cancel his recovery into aerials or had intangibility early in the move or something it might actually be good, but nope. No idea why Sakurai felt it necessary to replace Pit's old recovery with this piece of garbage, especially since he then basically gave Pit's old Up Special to Villager while R.O.B. kept his as well.

I just want to point out that Rosalina has an extra degree of protection when using Launch Star through Luma. She can make it use aerials once she goes into helpless fall, and once she lands she can make it do jabs and tilts including backwards ftilt while she's still stuck in her landing animation. So..basically what you said in that Launch Star > Power of Flight, just even more so.

Do you think Launch Star's arcing trajectory vs. Pit's straight line makes any difference worth mentioning?

 

[Antonykun]

IIRC yoshi has a terrible neutral game though?

if we're looking for potential top tiers, I still think wario takes the cake for having almost everything you need to win in smash

anyone who says Yoshi has a terrible neutral need to re evaluate what neutral is

It's his advantage and kill set ups thats holding him back.

 

[NairWizard]

anyone who says Yoshi has a terrible neutral need to re evaluate what neutral is

It's his advantage and kill set ups thats holding him back.

Yoshi's neutral is pretty bad, he's not particularly safe on anything/commits a lot with lingering hitboxes, and he struggles a bit vs. shield though the patch helped f-air/d-air out. You can spotdodge his command grab on reaction. His roll is also 2nd worst in the game next to Samus'.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Contrast Pit's old Up Special, which could be used to move around the stage or even to go under the stage from one side to the other, and which could be cancelled into aerials for at least some benefit to Pit's offensive game.

Yeah, but Wings Of Icarus had its own weirdness. It was the only up-b in the game where if Pit got hit out of it, it didn't refresh.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Yeah, but Wings Of Icarus had its own weirdness. It was the only up-b in the game where if Pit got hit out of it, it didn't refresh.

That's cause Sakurai was an idiot and forgot to set the bit variable used for Wings of Pegasus during aerial flinch, or something along those lines.

 

[Steelballray]

Kill set-ups are overrated. They are nice to have but when you are as good at fishing for kills as Yoshi you don't really care. You do your thing and a perfect chance to fair, bair, uair, upsmash or even a grounded downB will appear. If anything is holding Yoshi back Its his grab.

 

[Drarky]

Kill set-ups are overrated. They are nice to have but when you are as good at fishing for kills as Yoshi you don't really care. You do your thing and a perfect chance to fair, bair, uair, upsmash or even a grounded downB will appear. If anything is holding Yoshi back Its his grab.

You do realize "doing your thing" means setting up a kill right? And that setting up a kill is a kill setup?

*gasp*

 

[DunnoBro]

IIRC yoshi has a terrible neutral game though?

His neutral is much better now with the shield changes

But he is in no way a "jack of all trades" or "all-rounder" character. He is very clearly unique and has several top tier attributes (air speed, jump, shield reliability) along with several bottom tier attributes (grab/combos, recovery, return to neutral options)

All-rounders are characters like Mario, Diddy Kong, Falco, Pits, maybe Greninja who have mobility, kill set-ups, and neutral potency but aren't overly reliant on any single aspect.

Characters like Pikachu, Sonic, and Sheik may seem all-rounded at a glance due to the "can deal with any situation" mentality their designs allow, but they're clearly much more reliant on neutral play than they are kill set-ups or mobility.

Sheik without needles, Sonic without shield cancellable spindash, and pikachu without quick attack are underwhelming characters.

Kill set-ups are overrated. They are nice to have but when you are as good at fishing for kills as Yoshi you don't really care. You do your thing and a perfect chance to fair, bair, uair, upsmash or even a grounded downB will appear. If anything is holding Yoshi back Its his grab.

He can't even fish for kills as safely/consistently as most characters. Even post-patch luigi is waaay safer going for reads than yoshi.

Kill set-ups are a bit overrated despite the amount of top tiers that have them. But mario, rosalina, sonic, and pikachu are characters that while lack super consistent kill set-ups throughout a large array of percents/positions, have the ability to safely fish for kills. (Mario's usmash, Sonic's Fsmash, Luma's anything, Pikachu's fsmash/thunder. Along with very potent and consistent e/ldgeguarding from these characters)

Yoshi's safest kill set-up is a spaced fair (and it's really only worth mentioning now as most top tiers could punish it before). All the others you mentioned are VERY unsafe to just fish for in neutral.

But, even DHD has a safe on shield kill set-up. (Two now, actually) The issue is they just aren't consistent or overall safe enough.