Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[KirbySquad101]

*sigh* Pretty much.

It still drives me nuts when people say stuff like "Pit can't land" or "he's easy to gimp" or even "Dark Pit's slower and more powerful." (How are there people who still believe that?) Actually, nearly every perceived drawback to the character is wrong from my experience. "Arrows are useless in neutral," "his range is bad," "he moves slow," "frame data is bad," "multihit attacks don't link properly," "really light," "easy to combo," "lacking air game," "struggles with projectiles," and heck, you can't even truly say he doesn't have kill setups. (SHAC Dair > ground bounce > U/Fsmash)

Yeah, he has trouble killing, but that's it. Not too hard to work around with rage.

Well, firstly, that seems more like an issue with bad/inexperienced players (lightweight my a**, the dude's somehow heavier than Roy/Robin)

Secondly, if you feel that's the case, then you should try to inform us why you think Ryu's bad against Pit. If you elaborate more, then I'm sure more people would be willing to discuss the Ryu v. Pit matchup, instead of just saying "whatever".

 

[Knife8193]

Radical Larry I think you're being a little too optimistic in regards to Link. I main him too, but I just think that a lot of swordsmen cover his niches better. On one end of the spectrum, Ike has slightly more power and reach plus more combos, while Toon Link has the better walling/camp game. He is just extremely average in this game, while he isn't worst, lots of character can also do what he does better, whether its camping, spacing, punishing, rushdown, etc.. I pretty much play Link cause he's Link.

...I realize you may have just been talking about a specific attribute of Link, but nonetheless I thought I'd share anyway.

On another note, I played against a really good Ryu the other day, and my impression is the MU against Ryu is starting to feel a little more like pre-patch Luigi (though obviously at a higher skill curve) honestly in that walling him out seems to be the best way to safely build damage on him. I imagine as Ryu gets more popular, and I think he will, we will be seeing more running away from him. His damage output and kill potential is just too crazy up close with a frame 3 utilt comboing into true Shoryuken, killing most characters around 80%.

Oh and shield is bad against him. I've been utilted/Shoryukened out of a shield drop/roll many times.

 

[Radical Larry]

Radical Larry I think you're being a little too optimistic in regards to Link. I main him too, but I just think that a lot of swordsmen cover his niches better. On one end of the spectrum, Ike has slightly more power and reach plus more combos, while Toon Link has the better walling/camp game. He is just extremely average in this game, while he isn't worst, lots of character can also do what he does better, whether its camping, spacing, punishing, rushdown, etc.. I pretty much play Link cause he's Link.

...I realize you may have just been talking about a specific attribute of Link, but nonetheless I thought I'd share anyway.

On another note, I played against a really good Ryu the other day, and my impression is the MU against Ryu is starting to feel a little more like pre-patch Luigi (though obviously at a higher skill curve) honestly in that walling him out seems to be the best way to safely build damage on him. I imagine as Ryu gets more popular, and I think he will, we will be seeing more running away from him. His damage output and kill potential is just too crazy up close with a frame 3 utilt comboing into true Shoryuken, killing most character around 80%.

Oh and shield is bad against him. I've been utilted/Shoryukened out of a shield drop/roll many times.

I know, I know, but I feel like I want to play someone with my Link to see how the MUs can go. I'm not good at explaining how an MU can go, but I'd like to show it in matches. Link might be average, but it's all because Link is probably the most balanced character in the game. He's not too bad, but I know he's not the best, but he's still one of the most balanced characters in the game.

In other news, I picked up Robin.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Please do.

It's frame 4 and kills you. Your move.

 

[Prometheus16]

Is Marth higher than Lucina in tiers?

Also, if he is, is there anything that she has that is better than his?

 

[Pazzo.]

It's frame 4 and kills you. Your move.

Sounds about right.

Little Mac has insane normals on the ground.

 

[Xandercosm]

this discussion is getting lengthy...

 

[Pazzo.]

Is Marth higher than Lucina in tiers?

Also, if he is, is there anything that she has that is better than his?

Marth is because of kill power.

But Lucina, off the top of my head, has a better Shield Breaker because it has no sourspot.
And F-Smash probably would be objectively better because it also has an even distribution of power. It's just not going to kill really early like Marth's tipper.

 

[Prometheus16]

Sounds about right.

Little Mac has insane normals on the ground.

Not to mention the "Easy Mac" combo: Jab -> KO Punch.

Pazzo. Okay, thanks...

 

[Pazzo.]

Not to mention the "Easy Mac" combo: Jab -> KO Punch.

Pazzo. Okay, thanks...

No problem.

I'm no Lucina expert (in SSB4), so I'd suggest checking out the Marth/Lucina fourms for more information.

 

[Prometheus16]

No problem.

I'm no Lucina expert (in SSB4), so I'd suggest checking out the Marth/Lucina fourms for more information.

Okay.

 

[Vipermoon]

Is Marth higher than Lucina in tiers?

Also, if he is, is there anything that she has that is better than his?

Marth is better for sure. He gets more reward for playing safely. Your second question depends on who you ask. Marth has better tilts, jab, dash attack, dancing blade. No one will argue that.

But I believe Marth has a better Shield Breaker and Fsmash. Ever since the jab buff Marth's Fsmash has been slightly more important than Lucina's. You can definitely argue that Lucina's is still better but I won't go further than saying it's a tie.

Kill Move-that-doesn't-break-shields... ahem... I mean Shield Breaker is better because holy hell it kills early. If it ever does break a shield, Marth gets more reward because he can end your stocks more often after a break. You want to max space this move anyway so the tipper should come naturally.

FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS CAN BE TAKEN TO MARTH OR LUCINA BOARDS.

 

[Prometheus16]

Marth is better for sure. He gets more reward for playing safely. Your second question depends on who you ask. Marth has better tilts, jab, dash attack, dancing blade. No one will argue that.

But I believe Marth has a better Shield Breaker and Fsmash. Ever since the jab buff Marth's Fsmash has been slightly more important than Lucina's. You can definitely argue that Lucina's is still better but I won't go further than saying it's a tie.

Kill Move-that-doesn't-break-shields... ahem... I mean Shield Breaker is better because holy hell it kills early. If it ever does break a shield, Marth gets more reward because he can end your stocks more often after a break. You want to max space this move anyway so the tipper should come naturally.

FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS CAN BE TAKEN TO MARTH OR LUCINA BOARDS.

*hair is now defying gravity and is pointing behind me* Okay, okay... Calm down a bit...

 

[Nargacuga1212]

I think Link should go higher

 

[Rizen]

Link has a weird swordsman niche in SSB4. He outright loses to another character's strong game: He'll lose a sword zoning battle with Marth, be out maneuvered by Toon Link, etc. But he's versatile enough to find a game he's stronger in like using Zair and Projectiles to space Marth and create openings or having better survivability and reach than TL. Link is good at adapting to any situation but will never be the best at a given situation.

I agree with what @Emblem Lord said:

Basically Ryu loses to characters that kinda suck, but since they suck and have sucky flaws he doesnt suffer as much as he should.

Sucks to be a sucky mid tier or lower I guess.

^This sums up Link. He has a lot of versatility and tools but isn't great with any of them.

 

[TurboLink]

Link has a weird swordsman niche in SSB4. He outright loses to another character's strong game: He'll lose a sword zoning battle with Marth, be out maneuvered by Toon Link, etc. But he's versatile enough to find a game he's stronger in like using Zair and Projectiles to space Marth and create openings or having better survivability and reach than TL. Link is good at adapting to any situation but will never be the best at a given situation.

I agree with what @Emblem Lord said:

^This sums up Link. He has a lot of versatility and tools but isn't great with any of them.

How funny.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I think Link would be a lot better if late hit NAir had less knockback growth.

On a less relevant note:

You know what's really disgusting?

Kirby has a true combo into a pocketed tree when he inhales villager

Apparently that's a thing. Doesn't make Kirby good but it's still hilarious. Also Monado Kirby is several levels of amazing. (Or at the very least really fun to play. Smash mode Kirby FSmash confirmed god tier.)

 

[RonNewcomb]

Link has a weird swordsman niche in SSB4. He outright loses to another character's strong game: He'll lose a sword zoning battle with Marth, be out maneuvered by Toon Link, etc. But he's versatile enough to find a game he's stronger in like using Zair and Projectiles to space Marth and create openings or having better survivability and reach than TL. Link is good at adapting to any situation but will never be the best at a given situation.

I agree with what @Emblem Lord said

Even "most balanced swordsman" goes to Pit, not Link. "Slow, hard-hitting swordsman w/projectiles" is shared with Robin. I think that tethergrab is the only thing keeping Robin from overshadowing him. He CAN run out of bombs. The max is 3 in play, I think? After that he just does an empty animation, same as Robin.

Link really does have to change up his gameplan based on the MU. Since he's not top-tier in any single category, but decent in every category, he's really reliant on understanding what his opponent is weakest to, which puts the onus on the player to really know the game.

I agree with what Emblem Lord said too, but to be fair, it isn't specific to Link.

 

[Tri Knight]

I know, I know, but I feel like I want to play someone with my Link to see how the MUs can go. I'm not good at explaining how an MU can go, but I'd like to show it in matches. Link might be average, but it's all because Link is probably the most balanced character in the game. He's not too bad, but I know he's not the best, but he's still one of the most balanced characters in the game.

In other news, I picked up Robin.

This I can kinda agree with in a sense but youre missing something. In FG play or even in friendlies you're probably looking at a much better time with Link but getting into high level does nothing but drop Link down. Trust me, I want him to be amazing too but he just can't be when he's not the best at anything.... he's just one of the best at doing almost everything. That's a great quality but it's just not practical. Having a focus on specific qualities is always better than being a jack-of-all-trades. Which is why I have always stood by the idea of a Link who is built for sword fighting. It won't happen, but that's really all that can be said about his viability as of right now.

Ironically for someone who is considered the do-it-all character he really is limited by it.

 

[Prometheus16]

Even "most balanced swordsman" goes to Pit, not Link. "Slow, hard-hitting swordsman w/projectiles" is shared with Robin. I think that tethergrab is the only thing keeping Robin from overshadowing him. He CAN run out of bombs. The max is 3 in play, I think? After that he just does an empty animation, same as Robin.

Link really does have to change up his gameplan based on the MU. Since he's not top-tier in any single category, but decent in every category, he's really reliant on understanding what his opponent is weakest to, which puts the onus on the player to really know the game.

I agree with what Emblem Lord said too, but to be fair, it isn't specific to Link.

Wait, there are multiple catagories for tiers?

That's actually very fitting that link should should know his opponent's weakness(es)...since that's how he defeats his opponents in his home series also (although I suppose that's how it's supposed to be...)

 

[Antonykun]

I think Link would be a lot better if late hit NAir had less knockback growth.

On a less relevant note:

Apparently that's a thing. Doesn't make Kirby good but it's still hilarious. Also Monado Kirby is several levels of amazing. (Or at the very least really fun to play. Smash mode Kirby FSmash confirmed god tier.)

If Villager lets Kirby pocket her tree, she deserves to be combed into the OHKO

 

[MachoCheeze]

If Villager lets Kirby pocket her tree, she deserves to be combed into the OHKO

This sounds fun as hell in doubles though, tbh.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This I can kinda agree with in a sense but youre missing something. In FG play or even in friendlies you're probably looking at a much better time with Link but getting into high level does nothing but drop Link down. Trust me, I want him to be amazing too but he just can't be when he's not the best at anything.... he's just one of the best at doing almost everything. That's a great quality but it's just not practical. Having a focus on specific qualities is always better than being a jack-of-all-trades. Which is why I have always stood by the idea of a Link who is built for sword fighting. It won't happen, but that's really all that can be said about his viability as of right now.

Ironically for someone who is considered the do-it-all character he really is limited by it.

Except having specific traits instead jack of all trades is more suited for secondaries instead of primarily mainig them. For example, I would use Mario, or Dr. Mario, over LM any time as my mains since no won't have to worry about extreme disadvantaged MUs.

 

[Rizen]

Even "most balanced swordsman" goes to Pit, not Link. "Slow, hard-hitting swordsman w/projectiles" is shared with Robin. I think that tethergrab is the only thing keeping Robin from overshadowing him. He CAN run out of bombs. The max is 3 in play, I think? After that he just does an empty animation, same as Robin.

Link really does have to change up his gameplan based on the MU. Since he's not top-tier in any single category, but decent in every category, he's really reliant on understanding what his opponent is weakest to, which puts the onus on the player to really know the game.

I agree with what Emblem Lord said too, but to be fair, it isn't specific to Link.

He can have 2 bombs on screen at once but he never runs out. As soon as a bomb goes away he can pull another. In a practical sense since bombs explode after 3.5 seconds iirc, it's unlikely Link will ever have the oppertunity to try and pull more that 2 at a time.

IMO it's hard to compare Robin to Link since they play so differently. Pretty much all of Link's moves and projectiles were designed to work together for frame traps. IDK how good Robin is after the patch.

 

[Djent]

Karisuma 5 is on SHI-Gaming now. Right now they're still on Bo1 pools for seeding purposes. Top level talent in attendance includes Ranai, 9B, and Earth, and as usual Kansai's regional threats are out in full force too.

EDIT: Nga beats 9B in pools. Ryu vs. MM is indeed crap lol.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, firstly, that seems more like an issue with bad/inexperienced players (lightweight my a**, the dude's somehow heavier than Roy/Robin)

Secondly, if you feel that's the case, then you should try to inform us why you think Ryu's bad against Pit. If you elaborate more, then I'm sure more people would be willing to discuss the Ryu v. Pit matchup, instead of just saying "whatever".

Mmm... Well technically I guess. Seems especially common for Pit though, Marth too. I don't see any other really viable characters get talked down on regularly.

I mean, what do you guys think I'll say? Disjoints, multihits, arrows > hadokens, arrows > poor aerial momentum, powerful offstage game that abuses Ryu's exposed noggin during tatsuwhatywhat kick... Just thought it was obvious is all.

Well, in customs... Hehehe. I'd rather wait and see what the CCI here thinks if it happens.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I feel ya; so many people talk about Kirby in the other direction, in particular (someone actually thought D-Air into D-Smash was broken. -_-)

Well, I'm guessing either Emblem Lord forgot to mention Ryu having a bad matchup against Pit, or that he thinks otherwise. And if it's the latter, then I don't think it's as obvious as it seems. I have no thoughts on the match-up, though, I don't have much experience with either.

Seriously, though, how DOES Pit weigh more than Roy/Robin? I know there are other silly problems with the weights in this game, but this one kind of bugs me too. -_-

 

[webbedspace]

WFs of this tournament are (Ryo's) Ike vs. Samus. Good at demonstrating what Samus doesn't have an obvious answer for (namely, lots of aerials).

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm more worried about how heavy Diddy, Toon Link, Sonic, Ness, and Mario are. Small characters. High density.

 

[Shaya]

Sonic's weight got randomly stealth nerfed at some point (by 1, apparently) if that suffices?
Don't really think Sonic's weight is too much, Mario/Ness maybe. The other characters don't really have high damage values along with their faster attacks.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I want him to be amazing too but he just can't be when he's not the best at anything.... he's just one of the best at doing almost everything. That's a great quality but it's just not practical. Having a focus on specific qualities is always better than being a jack-of-all-trades.

I strongly disagree about jack-of-all-trades being impractical. USF4's Juri is also a jack-of-all-trades, and once they fixed the unblockable glitch in Ultra, she immediately made top 8 at the following EVO.

Juri has good fireballs, but she'll lose a fireball war against the best fireballers Guile, Sagat, Akuma, Ryu.
Juri has good footsies, but she loses footsies against the best footsy chars Vega, Bison, Chun Li.
Juri has good offense/vortex, but it fails against the best defensive chars Honda, Boxer.
Juri has the 4th best kara throw in the game, but she won't get close to grapplers Zangief, Hugo, T.Hawk.

Juri's just as popular with the SF crowd as Link is with the Smash crowd, but like Link she just really needs to know what her opponents are weakest at, and exploit that. That IS practical.

Link's issue is frame data or mobility. If he could either get out of the way, or beat them to the punch, then he can play the game. I choose Quickspin but if someone told me that pressing Block + Up makes Link do a fast Shield Bash that does 0% damage and fixed knockback, I'd be happy as well.

 

[LancerStaff]

I feel ya; so many people talk about Kirby in the other direction, in particular (someone actually thought D-Air into D-Smash was broken. -_-)

Well, I'm guessing either Emblem Lord forgot to mention Ryu having a bad matchup against Pit, or that he thinks otherwise. And if it's the latter, then I don't think it's as obvious as it seems. I have no thoughts on the match-up, though, I don't have much experience with either.

Seriously, though, how DOES Pit weigh more than Roy/Robin? I know there are other silly problems with the weights in this game, but this one kind of bugs me too. -_-

If it helps, I don't think Kirby's that good. Really though, sometimes I think Kirby mains are a little hard on their character but I don't exactly play him so I keep my mouth shut.

Wasn't really talking about him in specific... Probably hasn't tried the matchup for real. It's just that the people talking about theoretical stuff not mentioning Pit like ever is getting pretty silly at this point... He has a few notable matchups but they're almost never brought up, and often when they are they get shrugged off for one reason or another.

Fits pretty well into his chewtoy/cosmic plaything status in cannon, and in Smash it gives him a pretty good niche in durably and the ability to abuse rage. Roy's weight makes sense, (Probably pretty light armor all things considered, especially with how frail he is in-game.) but Robin... Like, if he's weighed down by his books so much for his mobility specs to be so bad then why is he so light? Meh, I just don't think Robin is well designed in general.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I'm more worried about how heavy Diddy, Toon Link, Sonic, Ness, and Mario are. Small characters. High density.

Well, Mario IS meant to be an all-rounder, so it really wouldn't make sense that he's lighter than an average middleweight; that, and well, he's kind of... "thick"; Ness and Pit are the same age so I expected them to weigh the same.

Sonic actually seems pretty damn big in this game; from what I've seen he almost reaches the height of regular human characters, like Link or Ike.

If it helps, I don't think Kirby's that good. Really though, sometimes I think Kirby mains are a little hard on their character but I don't exactly play him so I keep my mouth shut.

Wasn't really talking about him in specific... Probably hasn't tried the matchup for real. It's just that the people talking about theoretical stuff not mentioning Pit like ever is getting pretty silly at this point... He has a few notable matchups but they're almost never brought up, and often when they are they get shrugged off for one reason or another.

Fits pretty well into his chewtoy/cosmic plaything status in cannon, and in Smash it gives him a pretty good niche in durably and the ability to abuse rage. Roy's weight makes sense, (Probably pretty light armor all things considered, especially with how frail he is in-game.) but Robin... Like, if he's weighed down by his books so much for his mobility specs to be so bad then why is he so light? Meh, I just don't think Robin is well designed in general.

Heh, that kinda helps. :D; I do definitely agree Kirby's not solo viable, but I wouldn't say he's completely "unviable", when his punish game is pretty neat.

Ah, I see now. I kind of thought the reason behind that was that since Pit's considered an all-rounder, most people just kind of view him as "there", though I wouldn't really know. I do agree it would be better to acknowledge him in terms of theory, since we've seen he's quite capable of being strong.

Yeah, I noticed Sakurai really wanted to keep Pit's character as true to the series as possible. Roy, I was just wondering, since he actually seems quite bulky in terms of his body (though not to the same lengths as Ike, obviously) . Robin, though... with all the junk around I would've expected him to be at least as heavy as the Miis or something.

 

[ARGHETH]

Robin, though... with all the junk around I would've expected him to be at least as heavy as the Miis or something.

The weird thing about Robin is that his weight/running speed isn't canonically established, and to make it even more confusing his stats in-game aren't set-you can change it at the beginning. His weight's probably more to balance his spells/Levin sword than anything.
('s probably a +Magic -Speed Robin)

 

[Gawain]

This I can kinda agree with in a sense but youre missing something. In FG play or even in friendlies you're probably looking at a much better time with Link but getting into high level does nothing but drop Link down. Trust me, I want him to be amazing too but he just can't be when he's not the best at anything.... he's just one of the best at doing almost everything. That's a great quality but it's just not practical. Having a focus on specific qualities is always better than being a jack-of-all-trades. Which is why I have always stood by the idea of a Link who is built for sword fighting. It won't happen, but that's really all that can be said about his viability as of right now.

Ironically for someone who is considered the do-it-all character he really is limited by it.

Ok that's just not true. Jack of All Trades characters ARE good in regular fighters. A Ken player won SF4 Evo. Ky Kiske also frequently wins tournaments. All rounders are amazing when done well.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ok that's just not true. Jack of All Trades characters ARE good in regular fighters. A Ken player won SF4 Evo. Ky Kiske also frequently wins tournaments. All rounders are amazing when done well.

Momochi?

 

[TriTails]

Sonic's weight got randomly stealth nerfed at some point (by 1, apparently) if that suffices?
Don't really think Sonic's weight is too much, Mario/Ness maybe. The other characters don't really have high damage values along with their faster attacks.

Really? When?

Also, it makes sense for Mario to be middleweight. And he's not THAT short.

If we want to say a short but heavy character... Mega Man and Wario (Especially Wario. His weight is near someone with an effing metal suit) comes to mind.

Meanwhile. Mewtwo.

 

[bc1910]

Ok that's just not true. Jack of All Trades characters ARE good in regular fighters. A Ken player won SF4 Evo. Ky Kiske also frequently wins tournaments. All rounders are amazing when done well.

Even in this game, Mario might be a bit more specialised towards his combos than usual but he's still very much an all-rounder. And he's considered top 5 by many, with Anti nearly beating ZeRo's Sheik. Despite this, I very rarely feel like I'm getting cheesed or BS'd when fighting Mario. He's a powerful all-rounder done well.

 

[Gawain]

Momochi?

Yeah Momochi. GG also had a Ky in top 8 at evo, as well as a ky win a recent major.

 

[Mario766]

This game compared to the others being really good at the game means having little to no weaknesses, or weaknesses that don't matter as much in the long run. Examples of this is Sheik and Mario. They both are very well rounded, Sheik is very safe but lacks damage on hit and can't kill reliably. I wonder who shares this same trait...Oh wait. Mario. They both combo well, but don't do amazing damage on hit, but they are both rather safe and have good frame data. ZSS is more of the skewed character, she has weaknesses but has amazing strengths that more than make up for it, kinda like Melee Fox/Falco. The other side of the spectrum would be Brawl MK, where he just does everything amazingly and is the 'broken' character for it.