Djent
Smash Champion


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I'm not good and I know he ain't viable. On the other hand, the best Kirby mains seem to say not much has changed. So I'm not about to drop Kirby to bad/terrible. Probably just meh, need a secondary.Where is this Kirby being viable topic coming from?
I'm fairly positive that most *good* Kirby mains have put their input in this thread already and said he is not viable: I loosely remember reading that he needs characters to make up for his bad matchups, all of which are top tiers that are commonly used. Kirby may have certain advantages with his crouch against Sheik, Fox or ZSS, but that doesn't mean these MUs are suddenly in his favor. I personally don't know MikeKirby, but I imagine he must put in a lot of work labbing, practicing, etc to get the results he gets with him.
You guys are sounding like the Tweek fanboys who deluded themselves into thinking BJr. is viable. He's not. Tweek also pulled incredible results with Yoshi in Brawl, yet that character was still bad in that game; Kage pulls good results with Ganon in Melee and beats some talented spacies, Sheiks and Marths, but by no means does that mean Ganon is suddenly viable in that game either.
It's subtle, but it's his disadvantaged state/ability to get out of bad situations that's overtuned. His recovery is very difficult to gimp or intercept, and he has a ton of options when he's being juggled/in the air: Quick Attack (resets to ledge or ground), literally all 5 aerials in different situations (even up-air can be used to get out due to the arc of the tail and the fact that it comes out so fast), Thunder (escapes Mario combos for instance, sometimes Sheik f-air chains), and even Skull Bash sometimes--QA is so flexible that if your opponent is trying to bait an airdodge you can get out of there with SB and then QA to the ledge to reset. Pikachu isn't immune to true combos like MK up-air chains of course, but he still has the best disadvantaged state in the game relatively speaking, with the easiest time recovering and landing. Sheik would be better or on par if her natural physics weren't so vulnerable to true combos, because Bouncing Fish is pretty strong.I do not understand why Pika is thought to be top 5 by some. Most of top 10 all have some characteristic that is drastically overtuned, ie, Sheik's neutral, ZSS's kill setups, Sonic's ability to avoid fights altogether, Mario's great damage rackup. Pika doesn't feel overtuned... at all. Quick attack is good and everything but it's not bulletproof like needles, Luigi fireballs, ZSS nair, or Ryu landing aerials. Here's one example: MK is generally accepted by MK users to go even or better with Pika, and has no issues with QA. Why? You can repeatedly fsmash and Pika has no shot of getting in with it, what-so-ever. The extended hitbox screws him over so hard. His combos aren't even that potent compared to top tiers, they're basically less damaging mario combos... And to kill he needs a hard read. Simply put, the character just seems far too honest to me to be considered top 5. I think when people put Pikachu in top 5, they're really putting Esam in top 5. Rosa, Sonic and Mario all seem better to me than Pika...
Some people were saying this a while ago.NairWizard was one of them who has since changed his mind. I frankly don't know enough about Greninja to make the call, and with high-level frog and rodent talent being practically anticorrelated at the regional level, it's not like I can fall back on tournament results either.
If Pikachu is good enough to go even/beat everyone in top 3 I don't see why he wouldn't be able to function the same against the rest of the cast.Ghostbone Not before factoring in how he does vs. the rest of the cast, which is well, but the other 3 arguably all do better. So I don't think he's the best even though I unashamedly believe he's top tier now.
That's not true. You don't see Pika tearing up Regionals/Majors/Nationals like you do other top 10 fighters. It's literally just esam with top level Pika play.Really for every character (besides mewtwo, dr.mario etc) There is that 1 good player that beats all the others so I don't understand why Pikachu shouldnt be top 5
Inui Logic: Character EditionIf Pikachu is good enough to go even/beat everyone in top 3 I don't see why he wouldn't be able to function the same against the rest of the cast.
Your first sentence is true. However, the smaller the gap between the highest tier and the others, the more the lower-tier MUs start mattering as well. And the characters in the few tiers beneath top are viable enough that I don't think you can ignore them. I wouldn't even weight those MUs much less heavily than the MUs within top tier anymore, since the number of characters capable of going far at the national level has arguably increased with each patch.Plus the most important matchups are the matchups against the other best characters. Your thinking is inconsistent, if you believe Pikachu has the matchups you claim you should also think he's the best characters as that matchup spread would only belong to the best character. At worst he should be 2nd or something if you think Pika has a weirdly hard time with other characters despite beating the best characters.
Explain to me why Pikachu particularly struggles with Mario and MK while winning vs ZSS and Ryu/going even with Sheik.I can't see Sheik, ZSS, or Ryu really losing to Mario or MK (and I agree w/ SolidSense that those are probably bad MUs). He might do well vs. Rosalina (I'm actually less confident about this one), but ZSS devours her and Sheik is still like +1 on her despite not being too dominant. Meanwhile, does anyone else in top tier have to worry about characters like...Ike? Pika does (it's not clear what the ratio is, but it is not free); I'm pretty sure Sheik/ZSS are solidly advantaged there and I have to imagine Ryu is too. There's just noticeably more that can potentially go wrong in a Pikachu's bracket, such that winning vs. ZSS and Ryu doesn't automatically make him #2.
Lemons.So why exactly does Ryu lose to Mega Man?
Lucas? Could you elaborate on that please?Ryu has to become "meta" before MM's good match vs him has relevance.
Lets say Ryu sees an explosion of growth and high level mains. He starts beating on Sheik and ZSS in high stakes tournies. Utilt locks and kill confirms out the booty. Now Ryu becomes "THAT" guy to beat.
THEN Megaman becomes relevant because he has a good match vs the King.
Characters that do well vs Ryu.
Diddy, Pac-man, Megaman, Lucas, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Ike, Villager, Olimar and Yoshi. This is all imo. Sonic does not beat Ryu imo. Ryu has answers to all of Sonic's stuff, the key is choosing the right option. Pika def doesnt beat Ryu. No way. Ryu can shut down every button Pika has with light ftilt, hard jab and fair. QA loses to SH nair as well.
Keep in mind I dont think Ryu has any match worse then 4/6. The raw killing power and threat of his damage keeps his ratios from spiraling out of control.
How do you define "well" exactly?Ryu has to become "meta" before MM's good match vs him has relevance.
Lets say Ryu sees an explosion of growth and high level mains. He starts beating on Sheik and ZSS in high stakes tournies. Utilt locks and kill confirms out the booty. Now Ryu becomes "THAT" guy to beat.
THEN Megaman becomes relevant because he has a good match vs the King.
Characters that do well vs Ryu.
Diddy, Pac-man, Megaman, Lucas, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Ike, Villager, Olimar and Yoshi. This is all imo. Sonic does not beat Ryu imo. Ryu has answers to all of Sonic's stuff, the key is choosing the right option. Pika def doesnt beat Ryu. No way. Ryu can shut down every button Pika has with light ftilt, hard jab and fair. QA loses to SH nair as well.
Keep in mind I dont think Ryu has any match worse then 4/6. The raw killing power and threat of his damage keeps his ratios from spiraling out of control.
Dropping in to lay some pikachu thoughts. He only SLIGHTLY beats Rosa (Been telling people this for like a month now, though post-patch that MIGHT change...depends entirely on whether fair and quick attack become safe on block vs. Rosa)
Pikachu is overrated as heck, he is always forced to take some degree on risk when fighting because of having like no range on his attacks, quick attack is also not as free as you guys make it out to be when getting on stage (though getting to the ledge is basically guaranteed), he struggles a bit to get off the ledge (unless QA is well, unpunishable on block now). In general his neutral is pretty gimmicky because you beat it by waiting for him to commit at a distance and cornering him if he doesn't.
No (but these things help, obviously).Explain to me why Pikachu particularly struggles with Mario and MK while winning vs ZSS and Ryu/going even with Sheik.
Is it just "lol short" and "lol multi-hits" (in regards to pikachu beating ZSS and ryu).
See, now this is funny. Because if determining MUs is as simple as looking at problematic extreme attributes, then why wouldn't "lol short" and "lol multi-hits" be acceptable answers to your first question?This game isn't so balanced that every character excels in particular areas, top tiers just excel more at mostly everything than characters below them. If Pikachu is very safe/elusive then Pikachu beats MK, if Pikachu can't play safe then pikachu loses to Ryu as well because Ryu trading is always in his favour and his punishes are ridiculous (same with ZSS).
Why does Pikachu have to worry about Ike? If Pikachu is prone to getting walled out then pikachu's going to get walled out by Sheik or ZSS as well.
Yeah like getting sent to losers regularly vs the top tiers because pikachu isnt winning tournaments anywhere except florida.There's just noticeably more that can potentially go wrong in a Pikachu's bracket
Maining Ryu myself, I know that Link is either an even MU or a win for Link. All the aforementioned characters here have either disjoints or projectiles with them, and Link has both, as well as good frame data and ways to shut down Ryu's recovery. Link's N-Air can completely defeat Hadoukens, his F-Air can gimp Ryu if Ryu uses Focus Attack or Tatsumaki, Link's D-Air works surprisingly well to meteor Ryu if Ryu uses Tatsumaki or FADCs out of Focus Attack.Ryu has to become "meta" before MM's good match vs him has relevance.
Lets say Ryu sees an explosion of growth and high level mains. He starts beating on Sheik and ZSS in high stakes tournies. Utilt locks and kill confirms out the booty. Now Ryu becomes "THAT" guy to beat.
THEN Megaman becomes relevant because he has a good match vs the King.
Characters that do well vs Ryu.
Diddy, Pac-man, Megaman, Lucas, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Ike, Villager, Olimar and Yoshi. This is all imo. Sonic does not beat Ryu imo. Ryu has answers to all of Sonic's stuff, the key is choosing the right option. Pika def doesnt beat Ryu. No way. Ryu can shut down every button Pika has with light ftilt, hard jab and fair. QA loses to SH nair as well.
Keep in mind I dont think Ryu has any match worse then 4/6. The raw killing power and threat of his damage keeps his ratios from spiraling out of control.
It was a joke; in all seriousness, though, Lemons can be good for stopping a Ryu who's trying to close in the gap against MM. But in practical terms, MM shouldn't use them unless he wants to stop Ryu from rushing in, especially in the air.Lemons aren't really an answer. You can't win with just lemons and they aren't broken enough to shut characters down (they aren't broken at all).
I want to address some things:N-Air is just...so good. It comes out fast, has pretty much non-existent endlag, deals 11% damage in a clean, early kick, has good knockback on all variations of his attack. Fun fact about the late hits and the back hit; they set up to ALL of his grounded attacks due to their low knockback even at higher damages, so N-Air can essentially be a kill setup to confirm, because it's so low risk, high reward if it happens. N-Air also allows Link to set up for some amazing shield pressure to D-Tilt or even end up grabbing the opponent if spaced well. N-Air is one of the best edge-guarding tools in the game due to its hitbox length, and it's that one attack that just loves setups into D-Smash and read setups to Dash Attack.
His F-Smash is also absurdly powerful, especially with Rage. Link's uncharged F-Smash can send lighter opponents to KO at 20% damage if both hits connect (this also applies to Samus, strangely enough). People say it's bad because the second hit has high endlag, which I can agree with, but that's why you train yourself to hit with the first hit if the opponent shields. However, with the aforementioned N-Air shield pressure setups, this attack will serve you well if you N-Air, D-Tilt and then use F-Smash in good succession; it will likely pop the shield because all 3 attacks would deal a combined total of 50% damage if N-Air is fresh and clean as a hit, and no attack has staled. Thanks to the shield nerf, Link's probably able to pop shields easily if you do it.
I find myself using F-Air very often, and it's justified too, since you can perform it from a bomb setup, or a good getup technique from backing away from the ledge and jumping back to it. It has the range and beats out all forms of attacks that try getting Link away, except Little Mac's D-Smash, F-Smash and U-Smash, and Mega's projectile game. But F-Air is a relatively safe move with safe landing lag and great damage output.
Link's B-Air, if RAR'd, is good for setups into itself and when Link lands, he can easily perform any follow up since the attack deals small knockback, enough for Link to actually find spacing to hit with F-Tilt and Dash Attack. B-Air is known to be Link's weakest multi-hitting attack, but it combos into itself so fluidly that it can rack up damage quickly on opponents, especially the bulky heavyweights like D3 and DK.
I can go on and on about Link and I can explain how good he can really be, maybe even talk about his MUs a little. But why should I talk about MUs of Link when I can try to at least show them? Link is a very underrepresented character in tournaments for no reason at all, and Link needs to have spotlight in tournaments for people to see that he's relatively good, probably a candidate for top 20. I know there are bad things about him, but I can show that there are good things about him too if someone gets serious with Link and knows what they're doing. (There's a thing called paradigm shift...)
Link having good results in regionals is more than what you can say for a huge majority of the cast people deem mid tier otherwise to be honest. (*cough* Shulk *cough*)I want to address some things:
Nair is not a kill setup because at kill %s the opponent gets launched too far away even with the weak hit. It is nice for intercepting but lacks the launch power to finish an opponent. They usually can still recover if they have a half decent recovery. I agree Nair is a good move, disjoint, lots of active frames and low landing lag. But it does start frame 7, which is pretty slow compared to things like Pac Man's Nair or Sheik's everything.
The Nair>Dtilt>Fsmash chain is fairly easy to escape from. Link did get a nice safety boost in the last patch but I think you're overestimating Link's shield pressure.
Fair is good but you're overrating it as a ledge hop option. It starts frame 14 and most Tilts can hit Link on reaction leaving him offstage without a jump. I do agree that Fair is a good spacing tool with low landing lag.
What you said about Bair is not true. It can combo into its self in the air but not after landing. You're talking about an attack with 10 frames landing lag chaining into a frame 15 Ftilt or frame 20 dash attack- a good opponent should not let this happen. You might be able to Bair>land>reverse jab/Utilt.
At best Link could be a mid tier but I see him at the high end of underwhelming. Top 20 would put him with characters like DK, Ryu, Villager, etc and he isn't as good as them. The highest level Link gets results in is regional.
Didn't a Link player make 34th in a major/national? That's saying something compared to the likes of Shulk.Link having good results in regionals is more than what you can say for a huge majority of the cast people deem mid tier otherwise to be honest. (*cough* Shulk *cough*)
Too bad it weakens over time.Didn't a Link player make 34th in a major/national? That's saying something compared to the likes of Shulk.
Anyways, I got to say that Link is still being quite underestimated, but nonetheless, there has to be that one player that will show Link can be pretty great as a character.
Let me be honest though, who wouldn't want a U-Air that can hit opponents even after they air dodge? Link benefits from punishing air dodges with U-Air, which often sends the opponent to a KO. Link's U-Air is arguably one of the better ones due to how disjointed it is and how long it stays out.
Reiterating, with my take on it.As far as Greninja goes he really is only held back by a terrible Sheik MU. Otherwise he was a pretty solid MU spread I'd say. Other than Sheik, the only MUs I think he loses are Fox and Sonic (though having safer options against Fox might make it easier for us, haven't really gotten to experience much myself).
and
are a bit on the "I don't know" side though, I could see Greninja going even or losing to them, but I find it unlikely that he has a winning MU against either of them.
Sincegot nerfed Greninja kinda lost a "niche" he had in having a winning MU against him.
Otherwise Greninja has even MUs across the board with the high/top tiers, maybe winning against some (? I dunno) but if he does it's probably a slight advantage and not much else
As far as viability goes he's not solo viable while Sheik is around and I guess at the end of the day that's what matters.