Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

Wait, Ryu's nair is +/-0 on shield?

He can actually grab 7 frame grab characters after nair before they can OoS grab him?

help

 

[Jehtt]

Aerial shield safety assumes you land on the frame immediately after the move connects, right? So Ryu woudln't be able to do that unless he landed immediately as he hit the nair.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Thoughts on Kirby? Imo he isn't good. Quick write up on phone glhf:

So kirby has a great combo game (not going into great detail) with many combo starters, and his fast moves with no landing lag help him with this. Since his moves are fast (and d-air is a thing) Kirby is also really good at edge-guarding. Basically his advantage state is really good.

Thing is, his neutral and disadvantage states are horrid. Kirby has a slow running, walking, and air speed, Kirby has bad range, Kirby has no safe aerials on shield (retreating f-air and RAR u-air are the only two), and other things. This makes his neutral REALLY bad. Kirby is super threatening from behind, that's not where your opponent will be most of the time.

Kirby is light, has bad landing options, no reliable combo-breakers, and gets edge-guarded easily. This gives him a bad disadvantage state.

Put his trash neutral and bad disadvantage state, Kirby can never achieve his really good advantage state. Another thing to add, Kirby has some of the worst approach options in the game, but also can't really punish the opponents approaches. His kill moves are also pretty slow (except for b-air) and his good combos stop working after 60%. We have a character that struggles a LOT in almost every aspect, except for when he can finally get where he strives, his advantage state. This makes him a bad character.

Sure at low-level play you will always get that 50% combo and do well, but in high-level play, the opportunies get smaller and almost non-existant. I can't see this puffball I call my main becoming anything past mid tier (even if he could've been in 1.1.0, the shield nerf def took him down).

EDIT: Also, characters like ZSS can be related to Kirby, except that ZSS can kill you at 40% for getting the advantage. Kirby can only do a small combo/maybe achieve an edge-guard. Higher risk but a lot worse reward.

 

[Nobie]

Kirby has no safe aerials on shield

(retreating f-air and RAR u-air are the only two)

???

I'm sorry but characters only have 5 aerials. If you have two of them that are safe, that's already 40% of your aerial arsenal bar special moves.

I know Kirby players talk about their bad landing options against shield, but they're a breath of fresh air compared to a huge chunk of the cast.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

???

I'm sorry but characters only have 5 aerials. If you have two of them that are safe, that's already 40% of your aerial arsenal bar special movies.

I know Kirby players talk about their bad landing options against shield, but they're a breath of fresh air compared to a huge chunk of the cast.

retreating f-air and reverse u-air (AKA the very tip of u-air). For my retreating f-air to be safe, i have to predict their shield and lose the potential of any combos i can get off of them not shielding a full on f-air. Reverse part of u-air does no shield damage and is slow to get out, no point in even going for it lmao. Everything else he has (tips, autocancels) completely not safe.

You didn't explain what his good landing options are though. Frame 17 d-air which can be shield grabbed during the move, frame 10 fastfall n-air which is also insanely unsafe, fastfall but slow fastfall speed, what does he have?

 

[Prometheus16]

According to Thinkaman's list, both the frisbee itself and the 2 shots have 2.0 hitlag multipliers.

I know this doesn't really matter all that much, but what he's actually throwing is a clay pigeon, not a frisbee. Clay pigeons are used in gun sports, which is why he's throwing it and then it gets shot.

 

[Nobie]

retreating f-air and reverse u-air (AKA the very tip of u-air). For my retreating f-air to be safe, i have to predict their shield and lose the potential of any combos i can get off of them not shielding a full on f-air. Reverse part of u-air does no shield damage and is slow to get out, no point in even going for it lmao. Everything else he has (tips, autocancels) completely not safe.

You didn't explain what his good landing options are though. Frame 17 d-air which can be shield grabbed during the move, frame 10 fastfall n-air which is also insanely unsafe, fastfall but slow fastfall speed, what does he have?

Most characters usually do not have good landing options in the face of the opponent because being above is generally a bad place to be in Smash Bros.

Having multiple jumps, even if they're slow, to help you decide when and where to land on your own terms is pretty important.

Having aerials that are fairly safe, even if dair isn't, is also pretty special. Kirby also has some of the best aerial landing lag frame data in the game, and that INCLUDES dair being averaged in.

I'm not a Kirby player so I don't know the intricacies of the character as you might, but have you seen like, Pit's or Duck Hunt's or Meta Knight's landing lag frame data? Some of them have tools like Dimensional Cape but wow what a difference compared to Kirby.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Most characters usually do not have good landing options in the face of the opponent because being above is generally a bad place to be in Smash Bros.

Having multiple jumps, even if they're slow, to help you decide when and where to land on your own terms is pretty important.

Having aerials that are fairly safe, even if dair isn't, is also pretty special. Kirby also has some of the best aerial landing lag frame data in the game, and that INCLUDES dair being averaged in.

I'm not a Kirby player so I don't know the intricacies of the character as you might, but have you seen like, Pit's or Duck Hunt's or Meta Knight's landing lag frame data? Some of them have tools like Dimensional Cape but wow what a difference compared to Kirby.

Multiple jumps doesn't make you have good landing options. Landing, not jumping options. Still punishable because anyone with a high jump height can just hit you out of your decision making.

I made my point that his aerials are not safe whatsoever. He has two safe options that aren't worth going for, since they are slow and punishable if they spotdodge/roll. Low landing lag is a good bonus, but it doesn't mean anything from what I said earlier on why he isn't a good character.

 

[Prometheus16]

Most characters usually do not have good landing options in the face of the opponent because being above is generally a bad place to be in Smash Bros.

Having multiple jumps, even if they're slow, to help you decide when and where to land on your own terms is pretty important.

Having aerials that are fairly safe, even if dair isn't, is also pretty special. Kirby also has some of the best aerial landing lag frame data in the game, and that INCLUDES dair being averaged in.

I'm not a Kirby player so I don't know the intricacies of the character as you might, but have you seen like, Pit's or Duck Hunt's or Meta Knight's landing lag frame data? Some of them have tools like Dimensional Cape but wow what a difference compared to Kirby.

Yeah. Compared to traditional fighting games, Smash is a very aerial fighting game.... this allows you to juggle the person, as well go for the aerial kill moves, which usually seem to come out a lot faster than Smash attacks. (Unless you're dis guy ....)

 

[Radical Larry]

@MaskO' Alright, add me up sometime and we can test some MUs.

Yeah. Compared to traditional fighting games, Smash is a very aerial fighting game.... this allows you to juggle the person, as well go for the aerial kill moves, which usually seem to come out a lot faster than Smash attacks. (Unless you're dis guy ....)

Watch out, Little Mac can actually be an air Mac if you're not careful. His F-Air and B-Air are semi-spikes, so at higher damages, you might find yourself regretting getting a read wrong, because he can string F-Air. Also, U-Air is decent for mid-percent juggles. DJFF (double jump fast fall) is usually a good way to do it.

 

[Mo433]

I was waiting for someone to mention Kirby in this recent patch. While his main method of approach was nerfed, it everything kinda got balanced out in the end. Fair, Dair, and reversed Up Air have all gotten a bit safer on shield due to the added shield stun. Also, he's gotten a better Rock Smash since shields have become a lot easier to break. And while his THROW combos stop working at 60%, Kirby still has decent options/combos at those percents.

To be honest, I do think it's a BIT too early to say if Kirby was weakened or helped from this patch.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Wait, is N-Air SERIOUSLY still not safe on shield even after the patch? That move has 10 frames of landing lag, I figured it would've helped.

And please, let's not make assumptions about how good Kirby is until AFTER we get a few results in; we can't just already claim that he's neutered by the patch when it is very early.

And BTW, why are you exclusively comparing Kirby to ZSS in terms of a reward like that? NO ONE can get a kill off of a punish at 40% like her, except maybe MK.

 

[Browny]

She gets juggled incredibly easily. When your feet are off the ground, it's hard to get them back there safely without going to the ledge.

And that's what I expect a lot of people will do.

If I'm using a character with bad landing options, I just fade away and go for the edge if I'm getting juggled. Its all about running the %'s. I know there's a high chance of taking a lot of damage trying to come down and even if I do, I'll probably get grabbed out of landing lag. I'd rather go for the ledge and take a 50:50 on getting off for free.

I find it funny how going for the ledge is such a big strategy with characters like WFT, yet choosing to go to the ledge to avoid pressure is somehow... not an option when talking about negating the weaknesses of floaty characters?

Give up stage control or get juggled indefinitely, I think I know what one I'd take.

And BTW, why are you exclusively comparing Kirby to ZSS in terms of a reward like that? NO ONE can get a kill off of a punish at 40% like her, except maybe MK.

40%?

Try more like 25%. And its not just off a punish, its off a variety of safe moves... its too good.

 

[Prometheus16]

@MaskO' Alright, add me up sometime and we can test some MUs.



Watch out, Little Mac can actually be an air Mac if you're not careful. His F-Air and B-Air are semi-spikes, so at higher damages, you might find yourself regretting getting a read wrong, because he can string F-Air. Also, U-Air is decent for mid-percent juggles. DJFF (double jump fast fall) is usually a good way to do it.

Yeah. He also seems like he's a fairly good gimper.

This is the video where I originally thought that might be true...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...0-Lw1O&usg=AFQjCNHh6kXd-DLJN89qJTxxLPrwS6nQYw



(Posting video link I don't know how to attach the actual video itself onto here...)

 

[Browny]

Don't tell them the secret air mac meta, let them continue thinking hes low tier...

 

[Aunt Jemima]

N-Air is safe if you fast fall it at the peak of your short hop and hit with the initial hit.

F-Air is never safe, I don't know where that's coming from? You can SHFF retreating F-Air but anybody who has a good dash attack or dash grab can punish you.

Reverse U-Air is safe but like N-Air it's a super long start-up move with short range. I personally like it a lot, it's Kirby's best aerial. N-Air being safe on shield is pretty useless because the range allows anybody to hit you as you're preparing for it.

Lavani was correct about D-Air, when it's crossed up it's safe on shield. When it isn't, it's super easy to shield grab. I believe San talked about why this was useless, but used Yoshi as an example. You're never going to be shielding D-Air because it's an incredibly short ranged move on a slow character with a 17 frame start-up. This applies to Kirby's N-Air and U-Air, too, but reverse U-Air works well with multiple jumps. F-Throw > D-Air forces shields from like, 0~10% though which is cool.

Kirby's throw combos stop working at around 25% when DI'd properly. Final Cutter works a bit longer but you can tech the spike and punish Kirby so it's useless.

Stone doesn't break shields and is super punishable if you land it on a shield. It's pretty useless, I don't get why people are still hyping this up.

I don't get why anybody talks about Kirby anymore because he's completely irrelevant. He's in the lower section of the cast (bottom 20) and barely has any players. Triple R and MikeKirby really aren't threats because all they attend is locals and regionals. They'll occasionally go to something bigger but they get knocked out relatively soon.

Like. Meta Knight. That dude's the ****. He's viable, he's getting results, and he's constantly showing us that victory is his destiny. He invalidates every reason to use Kirby now because there's literally no advantageous match-ups that Kirby has over him. Why the **** is Kirby the "Hero of Dreamland" when Meta Knight's tearing through everything left and right?

Although I guess his tier list position is canon. He's the "greatest warrior in the galaxy" (more like the universe).

fyte mii

 

[PK Gaming]

Samus' bair was definitely always safe on shield and quite easily so. It has so much range and power that it was unpunishable if spaced even remotely well, and after the patch it's just ridiculous similar to how the patch changed top tiers. Nair also used to be safe, but required much better precision.

How much did Robin's aerial safety get buffed? I notice fair, bair and uair can't be punished even by the fastest dash attacks anymore. Maybe Shaya has the numbers or has posted them already?

Literally every one of Robin's aerials (bar dair) can't be punished when sufficiently spaced. It's awesome.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

A large issue with kirby imo is his abysmal airspeed combined with his floatiness. This problem, exacerbated by his lack of fast landing moves and terrible recovery, makes him very easy to juggle and edgeguard. I think he gets destroyed by characters such as diddy kong as soon as he is put in the air because of this.

 

[warionumbah2]

i thought awhile back we agreed that wasnt really a swordsman? or is my memory failing me?

 

[Browny]

He invalidates every reason to use Kirby now because there's literally no advantageous match-ups that Kirby has over him.

Please don't suggest that Kirbys use in this game is in any way related to metaknight. Seriously where do people get the idea from that character choice is restricted to game series and viability.

Even zero recently said once that there is no reason to use dk for anything because diddy is a better character... WTF.

 

[TriTails]

Shiek is the best swordsman. Her Fair is a sword.

It's not. I checked up on 1/4 speed Training Mode in 3DS a while ago. I initially thought she uses her sword because on how it produces a slash effect and sound but I was basically mindblown when finding out.

And BTW, why are you exclusively comparing Kirby to ZSS in terms of a reward like that? NO ONE can get a kill off of a punish at 40% like her, except maybe MK.

Rage FJP and Rest probably can. Input Shoryu also, maybe.

Also, MK kills people at 0% if you're really screwed. Have you seen that Leo 0-death against Mr. R?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I thought it was common knowledge that Sheik's Fair was a hand slap and... well not anything else like a sword ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's not. I checked up on 1/4 speed Training Mode in 3DS a while ago. I initially thought she uses her sword because on how it produces a slash effect and sound but I was basically mindblown when finding out.


Rage FJP and Rest probably can. Input Shoryu also, maybe.

Also, MK kills people at 0% if you're really screwed. Have you seen that Leo 0-death against Mr. R?

Doesn't True SRK kill at around 80%?

Edit: nvm, didn't see the part about rage. Forgot that was a thing.

 

[|RK|]

N-Air is safe if you fast fall it at the peak of your short hop and hit with the initial hit.

F-Air is never safe, I don't know where that's coming from? You can SHFF retreating F-Air but anybody who has a good dash attack or dash grab can punish you.

Reverse U-Air is safe but like N-Air it's a super long start-up move with short range. I personally like it a lot, it's Kirby's best aerial. N-Air being safe on shield is pretty useless because the range allows anybody to hit you as you're preparing for it.

Lavani was correct about D-Air, when it's crossed up it's safe on shield. When it isn't, it's super easy to shield grab. I believe San talked about why this was useless, but used Yoshi as an example. You're never going to be shielding D-Air because it's an incredibly short ranged move on a slow character with a 17 frame start-up. This applies to Kirby's N-Air and U-Air, too, but reverse U-Air works well with multiple jumps. F-Throw > D-Air forces shields from like, 0~10% though which is cool.

Kirby's throw combos stop working at around 25% when DI'd properly. Final Cutter works a bit longer but you can tech the spike and punish Kirby so it's useless.

Stone doesn't break shields and is super punishable if you land it on a shield. It's pretty useless, I don't get why people are still hyping this up.

I don't get why anybody talks about Kirby anymore because he's completely irrelevant. He's in the lower section of the cast (bottom 20) and barely has any players. Triple R and MikeKirby really aren't threats because all they attend is locals and regionals. They'll occasionally go to something bigger but they get knocked out relatively soon.

Like. Meta Knight. That dude's the ****. He's viable, he's getting results, and he's constantly showing us that victory is his destiny. He invalidates every reason to use Kirby now because there's literally no advantageous match-ups that Kirby has over him. Why the **** is Kirby the "Hero of Dreamland" when Meta Knight's tearing through everything left and right?

Although I guess his tier list position is canon. He's the "greatest warrior in the galaxy" (more like the universe).

fyte mii

Realistically, Kirby is going to continue being a guess unless we get a top-level Kirby player... and that's it.

Also, yeah... IDK why people are like "use Meta Knight" - MK was always a better character. I use Kirby because I wanna.

 

[Radical Larry]

CyberHyperPhoenix Sheik's F-Air is a mid-air karate chop with her hands, which have metal blades on the end of her four fingers (although the blade part is just a pointy part where her nails are). That's why there's a slash effect and not the same SFX from Brawl.

Also, off of a huge punish, there is a fact that Ganondorf can do a 0% punish on an opponent (with enough rage). It's only performed by exploiting an opponent's attack if they use a high endlag attack or by breaking their shield, the latter of which is more likely.

But neither FJP, Rest nor (to answer your question) Input Shoryuken can KO at 0%. One can set up a combo string of a zero-to-death with it, but it won't KO at 0% regardless of rage. There are only a few attacks that can actually one-shot opponents when Rage is applied, like a library rewriting aerial reverse Warlock Punch (42% damage and instant death) and (more likely to happen) Roy's Up B attack when it hits with the set knockback hitbox, or Game and Watch's Oil Panic and 9 Judge, which come off the top of my head.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Realistically, Kirby is going to continue being a guess unless we get a top-level Kirby player... and that's it.

Also, yeah... IDK why people are like "use Meta Knight" - MK was always a better character. I use Kirby because I wanna.

I think they want to be more like ZeRo. So instead of saying "Don't pick Bowser, pick Sheik", they say "Don't pick Kirby, pick Meta Knight"

Although I hate thie aruguement too. Like, why so you think I'm playing a worse character? Because I ENJOY playing them. I HATE playing as Sheik, so why would I want to play her over Kirby?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

CyberHyperPhoenix Sheik's F-Air is a mid-air karate chop with her hands, which have metal blades on the end of her four fingers (although the blade part is just a pointy part where her nails are). That's why there's a slash effect and not the same SFX from Brawl.

Also, off of a huge punish, there is a fact that Ganondorf can do a 0% punish on an opponent (with enough rage). It's only performed by exploiting an opponent's attack if they use a high endlag attack or by breaking their shield, the latter of which is more likely.

But neither FJP, Rest nor (to answer your question) Input Shoryuken can KO at 0%. One can set up a combo string of a zero-to-death with it, but it won't KO at 0% regardless of rage. There are only a few attacks that can actually one-shot opponents when Rage is applied, like a library rewriting aerial reverse Warlock Punch (42% damage and instant death) and (more likely to happen) Roy's Up B attack when it hits with the set knockback hitbox, or Game and Watch's Oil Panic and 9 Judge, which come off the top of my head.

....I'm pretty sure they were talking about 40% rather than 0%

 

[wedl!!]

That literally has nothing to do with "wanting to be like Zero". no idea why anyone here would want to be Zero as an analyst and not a player, but whatever.

That's just being realistic. If you want to win, pick a good character. It's really that simple. It's not saying "pick Sheik" either.

 

[Mario766]

Add Aether to the list of 0 percent kill moves.

I'd also say Super Jump Punch, but being right at the top blast zone isn't the same as on the ground.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's D-taunt is OHKO at the ledge. But it has the level of consistency even lower than Mario's SJP.

That said. If you ever get hit by this move you'll probably buffer ledge getups for the rest of your life .

 

[wedl!!]

Good thing that Parasol reverse single hit OHKO is difficult to land because the hitbox is so small, otherwise I'd be mauling Foxes when I get rage.

What a good mechanic.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Wait, is N-Air SERIOUSLY still not safe on shield even after the patch? That move has 10 frames of landing lag, I figured it would've helped.

And please, let's not make assumptions about how good Kirby is until AFTER we get a few results in; we can't just already claim that he's neutered by the patch when it is very early.

And BTW, why are you exclusively comparing Kirby to ZSS in terms of a reward like that? NO ONE can get a kill off of a punish at 40% like her, except maybe MK.

I can still make assumptions, there is good theorycraft (and proof) that 1.1.1 is a nerf, and that Kirby isn't a very good character. I compared Kirby to ZSS a because they both struggle to get the advantage. It makes sense with ZSS, she can't get it easily, but if she can take their stock at anything past 40 if she gets it. Same with Kirby, except the reward is WAY less and it is even MORE risky.

N-Air is safe if you fast fall it at the peak of your short hop and hit with the initial hit.

F-Air is never safe, I don't know where that's coming from? You can SHFF retreating F-Air but anybody who has a good dash attack or dash grab can punish you.

Reverse U-Air is safe but like N-Air it's a super long start-up move with short range. I personally like it a lot, it's Kirby's best aerial. N-Air being safe on shield is pretty useless because the range allows anybody to hit you as you're preparing for it.

Lavani was correct about D-Air, when it's crossed up it's safe on shield. When it isn't, it's super easy to shield grab. I believe San talked about why this was useless, but used Yoshi as an example. You're never going to be shielding D-Air because it's an incredibly short ranged move on a slow character with a 17 frame start-up. This applies to Kirby's N-Air and U-Air, too, but reverse U-Air works well with multiple jumps. F-Throw > D-Air forces shields from like, 0~10% though which is cool.

Kirby's throw combos stop working at around 25% when DI'd properly. Final Cutter works a bit longer but you can tech the spike and punish Kirby so it's useless.

Stone doesn't break shields and is super punishable if you land it on a shield. It's pretty useless, I don't get why people are still hyping this up.

I don't get why anybody talks about Kirby anymore because he's completely irrelevant. He's in the lower section of the cast (bottom 20) and barely has any players. Triple R and MikeKirby really aren't threats because all they attend is locals and regionals. They'll occasionally go to something bigger but they get knocked out relatively soon.

Like. Meta Knight. That dude's the ****. He's viable, he's getting results, and he's constantly showing us that victory is his destiny. He invalidates every reason to use Kirby now because there's literally no advantageous match-ups that Kirby has over him. Why the **** is Kirby the "Hero of Dreamland" when Meta Knight's tearing through everything left and right?

Although I guess his tier list position is canon. He's the "greatest warrior in the galaxy" (more like the universe).

fyte mii

oops, sorry if i got a couple things wrong.

 

[Prometheus16]

Does anyone know if Little Mac's N-air combo where he footstools and N-airs, and repeats into an up-B is still there, or was it patched out?

 

[Vipermoon]

http://smash4u.net/the-big-house-5-smash-4-top-32-stats/

Very interesting stats. MI did well (and there were a lot of 33rd and such placing MI players too). They put Ally in MI but the one who went to top 8 was Rayquaza.

Ofc Smashville was the most popular but we generally saw a good diversity. Castle Siege was oddly very popular in top 8 so that had some %s.

Congrats to Sheik, Mario, and Rosa. We could have already guessed you guys had the most wins. Luigi was among the highest in win %. Fairly diverse for top 32, I counted 20 characters.

 

[bc1910]

I know this doesn't really matter all that much, but what he's actually throwing is a clay pigeon, not a frisbee. Clay pigeons are used in gun sports, which is why he's throwing it and then it gets shot.

I know. I assume @DunnoBro knows too.

But it looks like a frisbee. And dogs like frisbees.

Why did you even post this? You know we're also aware that Mega Man's not actually shooting lemons, right?

 

[Wintropy]

Please don't suggest that Kirbys use in this game is in any way related to metaknight. Seriously where do people get the idea from that character choice is restricted to game series and viability.

Even zero recently said once that there is no reason to use dk for anything because diddy is a better character... WTF.

It's probably because Kirby and MK's physics are kinda similar. Same hitbox size, multiple jumps, close-range moves, aerial viability, that kinda thing.

But that's being very superficial about it. I'm pretty sure they're nothing alike beyond the tiny handful of fundamental similarities. Otherwise I agree with you.

I think Reserved was just using MK as the most convenient example. I don't think he's implying there's a tangible connection between the two competitively.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think they want to be more like ZeRo. So instead of saying "Don't pick Bowser, pick Sheik", they say "Don't pick Kirby, pick Meta Knight"

Although I hate thie aruguement too. Like, why so you think I'm playing a worse character? Because I ENJOY playing them. I HATE playing as Sheik, so why would I want to play her over Kirby?

Uuummmm, I thought most of the Kirby hype CAME from Zero, who kept saying he was amazing, apparently.
Honestly, it really feels like he's overrating the character to oblivion, which leads to so many casuals complaining about simple things that can be avoided like D-Air.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Does anyone know if Little Mac's N-air combo where he footstools and N-airs, and repeats into an up-B is still there, or was it patched out?

That never worked. N-Air has/had negative frame advantage on hit and you can't footstool an opponent out of most options, so if they use most Up-Bs or any fast aerial (5 frame aerials or faster), it will not work.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

It's probably because Kirby and MK's physics are kinda similar. Same hitbox size, multiple jumps, close-range moves, aerial viability, that kinda thing.

But that's being very superficial about it. I'm pretty sure they're nothing alike beyond the tiny handful of fundamental similarities. Otherwise I agree with you.

I think Reserved was just using MK as the most convenient example. I don't think he's implying there's a tangible connection between the two competitively.

This. I guess it'd be other Kirby mains that'd end up taking it so literally.

You guys (Kirby mains) are all taking this on a more casual level. You can play basically anybody on For Glory or probably online friendlies and still do relatively well. When you're playing in higher play, however, Kirby will get you nowhere. As I said, the two best Kirby players have yet to make any noise outside of locals, sometimes regionals. That's probably saying something.

Uuummmm, I thought most of the Kirby hype CAME from Zero, who kept saying he was amazing, apparently.
Honestly, it really feels like he's overrating the character to oblivion, which leads to so many casuals complaining about simple things that can be avoided like D-Air.

If I'm gonna be honest, a lot of the reason anybody thought Kirby was at least out of the low tiers pre-patch was because of my posts about the character. Outside of random Reddit players who are influenced by anything and everything ZeRo says, almost nobody will listen to his videos because they're usually focused on his impressions specifically.


Personally, I don't care about Kirby's viability from the patch. They're most likely going to buff him when they start adjusting to this patch, or possibly revert the shield changes. Luckily, if they do decide to touch up on him, they may fix his biggest flaw by adding mobility to him in an effort to fix his shield safety.

btw

meta knight is a kirby :4kirbyknight:

 

[Asdioh]

Why did you even post this? You know we're also aware that Mega Man's not actually shooting lemons, right?

I don't know why people call them lemons, when they're obviously eggs.

Good thing that Parasol reverse single hit OHKO is difficult to land because the hitbox is so small, otherwise I'd be mauling Foxes when I get rage.

What a good mechanic.

I know this is sarcasm, but rage is THE WORST UGH.


Meta Knight isn't very comparable to Kirby, except for being a ball with 5 jumps, and having a move that's even better than Upper Cutter, without the need for customs. The most comparable character to Kirby imo is Fox, which might be why I've enjoyed playing Fox since Brawl. His Specials are obviously all very different, but his jab, tilts, smashes, and aerials are all extremely similar, both in description and function. It's been said many times, but the key difference that makes Fox's moves work, while Kirby struggles, is SPEED. Kirby's moveset is honestly good, but he doesn't have the speed to use it effectively. Although most of Fox's aerials start up significantly faster than Kirby, so that would be nice too. And I want his dash attack.

We're talking about Kirby's aerial safety on shield, when really, it shouldn't matter much. The ideal strategy against Kirby in the air always has been, and always will be, to just outspace him. It doesn't matter how shieldstun changed in this patch, because you should simply be out of his range. If you're shielding his aerials a lot, you're probably playing the matchup wrong. Even if he had Sheik's Fair, he couldn't use it in rapid succession like she can, because his SHFF is practically half the speed, and he's far slower at closing distance, so it would be a lot less effective on him. You can either throw out a hitbox to beat his aerial, or walk/roll out of the way and wait for his landing. Unrelated fun fact: Kirby's landing hitbox on Dair can clank with moves, so I guess it counts as a grounded move?


More random fun facts, assuming http://www.ssbwiki.com/Air_speed is correct:

Spoiler: Character air speed changes from Brawl, ordered from most gain to most loss, along with their current ranking

14. Sheik +0.254
32. Meta Knight +0.238
8. Mario +0.21
18. ROB +0.19
5. ZSS +0.166
18. Ike +0.1588
50. Charizard +0.113
48. Link +0.0716
35. Fox +0.07
8. Donkey Kong +0.069
38. Peach +0.057
24. Zelda +0.053
48. Diddy Kong +0.0528
12. Mr. Game & Watch: +0.039
28. Lucario +0.023
54. Luigi +0.00098 (lol)

2. Jigglypuff ±0
22. Lucas ±0
37. Ness ±0
41. Toon Link ±0
43. Pikachu ±0
45. Falco ±0
51. Olimar ±0
55. King Dedede ±0

46. Pit -0.003
3. Wario -0.012
26. Marth -0.014
1. Yoshi -0.036
38. Samus -0.037
8. Sonic -0.0408
52. Kirby -0.05
33. Bowser -0.054
53. Ganondorf -0.056
14. Captain Falcon -0.08

Correct me if this data already exists somewhere, but I don't think I've seen someone list the speed changes in this way before. I probably should have put this in a table, but I forgot and would probably screw it up. Anyway, I think it's neat to look at this. Maybe these differences should be listed somewhere relevant, like the smash academy or something. It's hard to say exactly how many spots characters gained/lost, because Brawl/Smash 4 have different characters and a different number of characters, but obviously Sheik is the biggest winner by far, with Mario/ZSS/Meta Knight etc also gaining massive benefit. I cannot fathom why Meta Knight was slower than Kirby in Brawl, but then gained a ton of airspeed, while Kirby lost some, making the gap huge, and opposite the previous game. Kirby has the 4th slowest airspeed in the game and lost the 4th most out of all the Brawl vets. Ganondorf has the 3rd slowest, and lost the 2nd most. Basically what I gather from this info is that Brawl MK was underpowered and needed buffs, while Kirby and Ganondorf were OP and needed big nerfs. Also Luigi needed 0.00098 more airspeed. I'm being a little sarcastic.

Anyway yeah, obviously Kirby shouldn't approach with aerials in this game. At least his Ftilt and Dtilt are relatively safe on shield.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I don't know why people call them lemons, when they're obviously eggs.

I know this is sarcasm, but rage is THE WORST UGH.


Meta Knight isn't very comparable to Kirby, except for being a ball with 5 jumps, and having a move that's even better than Upper Cutter, without the need for customs. The most comparable character to Kirby imo is Fox, which might be why I've enjoyed playing Fox since Brawl. His Specials are obviously all very different, but his jab, tilts, smashes, and aerials are all extremely similar, both in description and function. It's been said many times, but the key difference that makes Fox's moves work, while Kirby struggles, is SPEED. Kirby's moveset is honestly good, but he doesn't have the speed to use it effectively. Although most of Fox's aerials start up significantly faster than Kirby, so that would be nice too. And I want his dash attack.

We're talking about Kirby's aerial safety on shield, when really, it shouldn't matter much. The ideal strategy against Kirby in the air always has been, and always will be, to just outspace him. It doesn't matter how shieldstun changed in this patch, because you should simply be out of his range. If you're shielding his aerials a lot, you're probably playing the matchup wrong. Even if he had Sheik's Fair, he couldn't use it in rapid succession like she can, because his SHFF is practically half the speed, and he's far slower at closing distance, so it would be a lot less effective on him. You can either throw out a hitbox to beat his aerial, or walk/roll out of the way and wait for his landing. Unrelated fun fact: Kirby's landing hitbox on Dair can clank with moves, so I guess it counts as a grounded move?


More random fun facts, assuming http://www.ssbwiki.com/Air_speed is correct:

Spoiler: Character air speed changes from Brawl, ordered from most gain to most loss, along with their current ranking

14. Sheik +0.254
32. Meta Knight +0.238
8. Mario +0.21
18. ROB +0.19
5. ZSS +0.166
18. Ike +0.1588
50. Charizard +0.113
48. Link +0.0716
35. Fox +0.07
8. Donkey Kong +0.069
38. Peach +0.057
24. Zelda +0.053
48. Diddy Kong +0.0528
12. Mr. Game & Watch: +0.039
28. Lucario +0.023
54. Luigi +0.00098 (lol)

2. Jigglypuff ±0
22. Lucas ±0
37. Ness ±0
41. Toon Link ±0
43. Pikachu ±0
45. Falco ±0
51. Olimar ±0
55. King Dedede ±0

46. Pit -0.003
3. Wario -0.012
26. Marth -0.014
1. Yoshi -0.036
38. Samus -0.037
8. Sonic -0.0408
52. Kirby -0.05
33. Bowser -0.054
53. Ganondorf -0.056
14. Captain Falcon -0.08

Correct me if this data already exists somewhere, but I don't think I've seen someone list the speed changes in this way before. I probably should have put this in a table, but I forgot and would probably screw it up. Anyway, I think it's neat to look at this. Maybe these differences should be listed somewhere relevant, like the smash academy or something. It's hard to say exactly how many spots characters gained/lost, because Brawl/Smash 4 have different characters and a different number of characters, but obviously Sheik is the biggest winner by far, with Mario/ZSS/Meta Knight etc also gaining massive benefit. I cannot fathom why Meta Knight was slower than Kirby in Brawl, but then gained a ton of airspeed, while Kirby lost some, making the gap huge, and opposite the previous game. Kirby has the 4th slowest airspeed in the game and lost the 4th most out of all the Brawl vets. Ganondorf has the 3rd slowest, and lost the 2nd most. Basically what I gather from this info is that Brawl MK was underpowered and needed buffs, while Kirby and Ganondorf were OP and needed big nerfs. Also Luigi needed 0.00098 more airspeed. I'm being a little sarcastic.

Anyway yeah, obviously Kirby shouldn't approach with aerials in this game. At least his Ftilt and Dtilt are relatively safe on shield.

Problem with this is more so that Kirby didn't get any of the shield buffs, while other characters did. I don't ever use his aerials on shield outside of landing reverse U-Air, as I usually opt for jab/ftilt/dtilt. Sadly, even those moves are punishable by fast characters when spaced properly. PP F-Tilt is safe on shield because you get the strong hitbox but with the max range, so there's that... I guess.

everything else is gud i like this post

By the way, I mainly compare Kirby and Meta Knight as most Kirby mains have extreme bias towards the series and most likely won't play anybody outside of it.