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Somehow, I can't really deny the possibility of mobility specs getting buffed in the future. I mean, everybody thought for the longest time customs weren't getting touched until the recent patch, and didn't they randomly buff Kirby's walking speed when charging hammer? I'm not about to dismiss speed buffs in the future just yet, because Mash Potato Sakurai is a silly, unpredictable troll like that who doesn't really follow consistent patterns like we tend to believe.
I don't know why people call them lemons, when they're obviously eggs.
I know this is sarcasm, but rage is THE WORST UGH.
Meta Knight isn't very comparable to Kirby, except for being a ball with 5 jumps, and having a move that's even better than Upper Cutter, without the need for customs. The most comparable character to Kirby imo is Fox, which might be why I've enjoyed playing Fox since Brawl. His Specials are obviously all very different, but his jab, tilts, smashes, and aerials are all extremely similar, both in description and function. It's been said many times, but the key difference that makes Fox's moves work, while Kirby struggles, is SPEED. Kirby's moveset is honestly good, but he doesn't have the speed to use it effectively. Although most of Fox's aerials start up significantly faster than Kirby, so that would be nice too. And I want his dash attack.
We're talking about Kirby's aerial safety on shield, when really, it shouldn't matter much. The ideal strategy against Kirby in the air always has been, and always will be, to just outspace him. It doesn't matter how shieldstun changed in this patch, because you should simply be out of his range. If you're shielding his aerials a lot, you're probably playing the matchup wrong. Even if he had Sheik's Fair, he couldn't use it in rapid succession like she can, because his SHFF is practically half the speed, and he's far slower at closing distance, so it would be a lot less effective on him. You can either throw out a hitbox to beat his aerial, or walk/roll out of the way and wait for his landing. Unrelated fun fact: Kirby's landing hitbox on Dair can clank with moves, so I guess it counts as a grounded move?
14. Sheik +0.254
32. Meta Knight +0.238
8. Mario +0.21
18. ROB +0.19
5. ZSS +0.166
18. Ike +0.1588
50. Charizard +0.113
48. Link +0.0716
35. Fox +0.07
8. Donkey Kong +0.069
38. Peach +0.057
24. Zelda +0.053
48. Diddy Kong +0.0528
12. Mr. Game & Watch: +0.039
28. Lucario +0.023
54. Luigi +0.00098 (lol)
2. Jigglypuff ±0
22. Lucas ±0
37. Ness ±0
41. Toon Link ±0
43. Pikachu ±0
45. Falco ±0
51. Olimar ±0
55. King Dedede ±0
Correct me if this data already exists somewhere, but I don't think I've seen someone list the speed changes in this way before. I probably should have put this in a table, but I forgot and would probably screw it up. Anyway, I think it's neat to look at this. Maybe these differences should be listed somewhere relevant, like the smash academy or something. It's hard to say exactly how many spots characters gained/lost, because Brawl/Smash 4 have different characters and a different number of characters, but obviously Sheik is the biggest winner by far, with Mario/ZSS/Meta Knight etc also gaining massive benefit. I cannot fathom why Meta Knight was slower than Kirby in Brawl, but then gained a ton of airspeed, while Kirby lost some, making the gap huge, and opposite the previous game. Kirby has the 4th slowest airspeed in the game and lost the 4th most out of all the Brawl vets. Ganondorf has the 3rd slowest, and lost the 2nd most. Basically what I gather from this info is that Brawl MK was underpowered and needed buffs, while Kirby and Ganondorf were OP and needed big nerfs. Also Luigi needed 0.00098 more airspeed. I'm being a little sarcastic.
Anyway yeah, obviously Kirby shouldn't approach with aerials in this game. At least his Ftilt and Dtilt are relatively safe on shield.
Yup, I have no idea why Kirby got his air speed nerfed. I guess it's to stay true to his series? That said, you do have a point of his aerials being outspaced, especially N-Air in particular.
In short, the way I see it, the biggest problem with Kirby is that for a character of his stature, he needs either speed or range to fully utilize his kit. Kirby has neither. And seeing as how neither is likely going to be buffed, an improvement to the frame data on his aerials would be best (ESPECIALLY N-Air).
By the way, I mainly compare Kirby and Meta Knight as most Kirby mains have extreme bias towards the series and most likely won't play anybody outside of it.
Somehow, I can't really deny the possibility of mobility specs getting buffed in the future. I mean, everybody thought for the longest time customs weren't getting touched until the recent patch,
That never worked. N-Air has/had negative frame advantage on hit and you can't footstool an opponent out of most options, so if they use most Up-Bs or any fast aerial (5 frame aerials or faster), it will not work.
I don't know what MikeKirby thinks of Kirby besides "kiiiiiinda viable" (when I talked to him about a vid I was planning to make), so hearing more from him would be sick.
I don't know what MikeKirby thinks of Kirby besides "kiiiiiinda viable" (when I talked to him about a vid I was planning to make), so hearing more from him would be sick.
I actually asked @MikeKirby on my Skype about Kirby's current viability now with 1.1.1 not too long ago. If I recall correctly (since I don't have Skype in front of me), he and a lot of the other Kirby mains believed that not a lot has changed in terms of viability.
Overall, though, him and a lot of other big Kirby mains (such as Ken109 and D3K) say that not a whole lot has been changed overall about his outlook, mentioning a lot about how he is nowhere near as bad as he sounds in theory with this patch. Not quite sure what this means, and I'm just paraphrasing, but they think that Kirby did not get as impacted as other characters.
Of course, this is just me trying to remember what they say, and I might just be saying things wrong; that or I caught them when they were drunk or something. I'll double-check later.
Yea. I'm under the same impression that Kirby hasn't been changed much. Approaching with shield has been nerfed, but it's not something that breaks Kirby. While Kirby clearly hasn't benefited drastically from this patch, I definitely don't think he's anywhere close to unviable from it.
Don't know if this has been brought up, but a quick update came out for smash 4 (not sure how long ago, I was in school). I assume this is just to refine and fix things like Diddy's no grab glitch and maybe nerf sheik (fingers crossed)
I actually asked @MikeKirby on my Skype about Kirby's current viability now with 1.1.1 not too long ago. If I recall correctly (since I don't have Skype in front of me), he and a lot of the other Kirby mains believed that not a lot has changed in terms of viability.
Overall, though, him and a lot of other big Kirby mains (such as Ken109 and D3K) say that not a whole lot has been changed overall about his outlook, mentioning a lot about how he is nowhere near as bad as he sounds in theory with this patch. Not quite sure what this means, and I'm just paraphrasing, but they think that Kirby did not get as impacted as other characters.
Of course, this is just me trying to remember what they say, and I might just be saying things wrong; that or I caught them when they were drunk or something. I'll double-check later.
So you do want him to be more viable?
I think Kirby is somewhat decently viable, he has flaws that will almost require a secondary, but he's usable right?
Someone here mentioned Ike needs a kill setup. Weak reverse Nair leads into Bair/Uair/Fair(although you have to act fast) and kills at around 90%, Nair leads into Fair and kills near the ledge, tilts and aerials are pretty fast and kill around the 100s and Eruption can be dangerous around 60% depending on rage/charge time and can be setup everytime your opponent is offstage. His Smashes are bad but you can use them as trapping/tech chase device. Ike doesn't need kill setups, he is one.
Although more reliable setups could make him compete better with the tops for sure.
Btw, Aether is only a 0 death attack with full rage and if the opponent is charging a smash attack. Oh and Aether spike may also be 0 death depending on how bad the recovery of the character is.
------------------
About Kirby, I don't think he is unviable at all with the reward he gets for getting in(seriously grab->Dair->regrab Fair does like 30% already and that is only one of his options). If I would be forced to compare him to someone, I would compare him to Luigi.(struggles to get in but huge reward if they do).
I really think they should power up his kill power though as he has no long range threatening projectiles and his midrange is abysmal especially after the increased shieldstun(he has neither the range of a swordie/heavy juggernaut nor the speed of rushdown monsters). I know that his close range game is pretty good(pretty fast attacks, very good reward out of grab and good setups to get into grab like dair) but once you get into the higher percents, you notice how hard Kirby struggles to kill. Let's look at his kill options:
Smash attacks(pretty fast but can still be reacted and punished not to mention a little bit weak)
Down/side-b hard read
Dair edgeguard(need to position your opponent)
Dair/Dtilt setup into smashes (not reliable enough)
Those are not bad but none of them are reliable enough that I should fear Kirby to get too close even with his damage racking ability. He needs something scary like a kill throw with Ness B-throw power, or a Jab cancel into smash attacks. Giving him something like a Ryu up-b equivalent would also be great. Kirby also can't make use of rage to his advantage because of his weight. Tto compensate, if you let Kirby in, you should really regret it considering how you can wall him out because you have more range than him and Kirby isn't paticularly fast.
Kirbys smashes are all quite powerful actually, and he has Bair to kill and Fair offstage
For his weight his power is definitely good, but landing them......yea that's a different story
Kirbys smashes are all quite powerful actually, and he has Bair to kill and Fair offstage
For his weight his power is definitely good, but landing them......yea that's a different story
I knew about bair offstage but I didn't know about Fair haha. But yeah, instead of his killpower I should have refered to Kirby's reliability to land a kill.
I agree with the Japanese consensus that // are top 3 (maybe not that order, though). I'd add as #4 because he's probably even with Sheik and very likely positive vs. the other two.
Also, holy hell @ that Japanese Genesis attendance. Komorikiri is going to wreck us; we're not ready for optimal .
Post-patch, how do you all feel other high tiers have improved against Sheik? Do you think she now likely has any losing matchups besides pika? I just haven't seen any in depth analysis yet of how her matchup spread might change with the new shield mechanics.
Honestly I'd like to have a discussion of how ZSS is the best character in the game according to the Japanese. I can kind of see how she's ridiculously anti-meta for them (zone breaker that kills you super early), but first in the game? That's still a bit fishy to me.
@Reserved I noticed you discussing that Lucas got decently buffed from the shieldstun changes earlier on this thread. Where do you see him now that everyone's had time to play him?
I mean, I think Sheik-Pika is probably even now, but I thought Sheik won cleanly in 1.1.0. I can understand why you'd call it a Pika advantage if you thought it was very close or even before. Either way, the changes to fair and QA really matter a lot, definitely to the point where I'm comfortable saying that Pika is one of the best options vs. Sheik regardless of the exact MU ratio.
To beat Sheik, a character realistically needs to be able to noticeably outpunish her while still being able to keep up in neutral. Very few characters can do both. Ryu is a clear example of the former while Pika/Mario/Sonic/Diddy are all examples of the latter. Can anyone rack damage fast enough off of borked risk:reward while actually being able to seal the stock before she gets into safe deadly mixup territory? I'm not sure, but ZSS is probably the closest thing out there.
Blatantly incorrect is when I say Kirby's uthrow kills under 100% or Mewtwo's Confusion does 15% damage. Facts.
Saying Kirby is viable because of his punish game isn't. Of course it depends on the reader's definition of viable and most discussions digging deeper into Kirby lead to most people disagreeing, but it still promotes discussion that helps learn more.
But I'm specifically worried about Komorikiri because top American players have considerable experience in fighting unoptimized Sonic. I think that could actually be worse than having little to no matchup experience (see: Ryu and Villager). Our top players will have to unlearn what to expect while also learning on the fly. And since less complete Sonic play has still managed to scrape wins off of the likes of ZeRo and ESAM just in the past month, I think everyone except Nairo could be in serious trouble.
Post-patch, how do you all feel other high tiers have improved against Sheik? Do you think she now likely has any losing matchups besides pika? I just haven't seen any in depth analysis yet of how her matchup spread might change with the new shield mechanics.
(I'm not trying to pick on Horseketchup, as I think Pika>Sheik is an understandable-but-wrong opinion, not an outlandish one. I'm just pointing out that Emblem Lord
is not making things up.)
Speaking of pikachu, I remember a while ago some pikachu and greninja players were saying greninja beats pikachu. Is that still true after the patch/was that ever true? And does greninja have a better matchup against pikachu than sheik does?
In a potential future meta where pikachu is a fairly common pick (especially considering pikachu's matchup against ZSS), I can imagine this being a character defining matchup for greninja.
I mean ESAM used to consider the pika/sheik mu as about even, so with all the significant buffs pika got out of hitlag+shieldstun, I don't see how believing pika has a slight advantage in the mu now is outlandish. It's worth discussing anyway.
Speaking of pikachu, I remember a while ago some pikachu and greninja players were saying greninja beats pikachu. Is that still true after the patch/was that ever true? And does greninja have a better matchup against pikachu than sheik does?
Some people were saying this a while ago. @SolidSense was one of them who has since changed his mind. I frankly don't know enough about Greninja to make the call, and with high-level frog and rodent talent being practically anticorrelated at the regional level, it's not like I can fall back on tournament results either.
If it's true, it'd certainly help define Greninja's relevance, but not necessarily his viability (since he apparently gets pooped on by Sheik? IDK). If the representation of top tiers changes such that other characters are seeing similar usage rates as Sheik, that would do wonders for his viability. And I suppose Pika could indirectly contribute to that if he becomes more popular. But now I'm getting into chains of uncertain assumptions.
Where is this Kirby being viable topic coming from?
I'm fairly positive that most *good* Kirby mains have put their input in this thread already and said he is not viable: I loosely remember reading that he needs characters to make up for his bad matchups, all of which are top tiers that are commonly used. Kirby may have certain advantages with his crouch against Sheik, Fox or ZSS, but that doesn't mean these MUs are suddenly in his favor. I personally don't know MikeKirby, but I imagine he must put in a lot of work labbing, practicing, etc to get the results he gets with him.
You guys are sounding like the Tweek fanboys who deluded themselves into thinking BJr. is viable. He's not. Tweek also pulled incredible results with Yoshi in Brawl, yet that character was still bad in that game; Kage pulls good results with Ganon in Melee and beats some talented spacies, Sheiks and Marths, but by no means does that mean Ganon is suddenly viable in that game either.
I agree with the Japanese consensus that // are top 3 (maybe not that order, though). I'd add as #4 because he's probably even with Sheik and very likely positive vs. the other two.
I do not understand why Pika is thought to be top 5 by some. Most of top 10 all have some characteristic that is drastically overtuned, ie, Sheik's neutral, ZSS's kill setups, Sonic's ability to avoid fights altogether, Mario's great damage rackup. Pika doesn't feel overtuned... at all. Quick attack is good and everything but it's not bulletproof like needles, Luigi fireballs, ZSS nair, or Ryu landing aerials. Here's one example: MK is generally accepted by MK users to go even or better with Pika, and has no issues with QA. Why? You can repeatedly fsmash and Pika has no shot of getting in with it, what-so-ever. The extended hitbox screws him over so hard. His combos aren't even that potent compared to top tiers, they're basically less damaging mario combos... And to kill he needs a hard read. Simply put, the character just seems far too honest to me to be considered top 5. I think when people put Pikachu in top 5, they're really putting Esam in top 5. Rosa, Sonic and Mario all seem better to me than Pika...
