Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

You know, people talk alot about how ZSS doesn't have an amazing neutral but tbh, I'm starting to see how that isn't really the case (especially now). ZSS has alot of good moves to use in the neutral (particularly nair, zair, b reverse neutral B and so on) that are pretty safe, and can lead into grabs which then leads to combos. So ZSS doesn't have to constantly go for risky grabs. The one shining advantage ZSS has over shiek is that she has a kill option at any percent practically. We have seen nairo pull it off regularly, it really is possible to kill people over the top (especially from on top of a platform) with landing the grab on sub 40%. Once she is beyond the point where upB won't consistently work (because with ZSS rage/opponent high percent, like you alluded to at the end, people can just slip out) instead, uair, utilt, bair, downb, all can kill and are relatively safe to use if used appropriately. Hence, you always have to respect the ZSS because they can kill you at almost literally any percent. IF I were to nerf her, reduce the knock back growth on her bair and uair so that it can't really be used as a kill move for when upB is inconsistent. (I believe in one of Nairo's last sets (in FAF), he grabbed someone at like 70%, and then killed them with a RAR bair. That imo is a little ridiculous).

Also, why do you say that Ness beats ZSS? Seems like ZSS has the ability to run circles around him, but I'd like to know the specifics on why. (Asking here since apparently, character boards aren't a good source for MU information).

The main problem with ZSS in neutral is that she has no rising shorthop game on grounded opponents and her out of dash options are generally poor. Dash attack is only good for punishes since it doesn't set up into anything and is very laggy, while dash grab comes out slow and if it misses you'll get punished heavily (luckily dash grab goes far and the reward is big so it's still worth going for).

Her SHFF aerial game is amazing and really safe especially after the patch, but SHFF aerials with ZSS mean actions of 20-25 frames so you can just react to her jump and powershield, and even if it's an empty hop she's not going to be able to grab you for the wrong call. Some characters can read ZSS' shorthop and jc usmash her, so it's not something she can just keep going for brainlessly all the time either despite everything being safe after the hit. As a result she has strong defense but no real offensive options.

However, the new patch improved her pressure game because now you can nair, uair or bair your opponent's shield and jab, utilt or up b before they can shieldgrab you (unless they powershield), creating additional pressuring options you didn't have before despite those moves being unpunishable already. Still, her ground game is lacking. Ftilt is good and dsmash is still decent, also side b might've found some use after the patch. You'll occasionally catch your opponent with paralyzer but it's certainly nothing to ever rely on.

Also I didn't say Ness beats ZSS, just that it's an arguably problematic MU and possibly less so after the patch. Ness' rising fair can mess with ZSS' aerial spacing, Ness floats away from her uair up b combos and back throw is a serious threat to ZSS (less so now with additional shield safety).

Not to mention that her neutral comes out on frame 1....

And the only other character who's neutral comes out that fast is Little Mac's...

ZSS' jab isn't that useful despite being fast. The hitbox is bad on the first jab, it goes over a lot of characters in many of their animations and if you hit with the closer hitbox your opponent can SDI out of it. Her ftilt has a lot more utility because of its range, better damage and a far better hitbox plus the ability to angle it.

Falcon's f3 jab is a lot better than ZSS' for instance, it's slower but it's fast enough and more reliable in every other aspect with a higher damage output, and you can hold it out to stuff out a lot of things (ZSS can hold hers out but it resets slower and has a worse hitbox so it's not useful for that). Probably the best jab in the game so perhaps an unfair comparison, but Luigi and Mac also have better jabs than ZSS.

 

[Pazzo.]

I don't think anybody thinks these are terrible characters.

Mediocre, maybe, in the case of Toon Link, but I've heard nothing but praise for Greninja recently.

I must be out of touch then.

Come to think of it, doesn't aMSa play Greninja?

 

[Xygonn]

Samus mains are borderline suicidal.

Speaking of which I have a short writeup I'm gonna share here that I also put on reddit:

1.1.1 is a huge buff for Samus.

So, I'm a Samus main and I think a lot about the game mechanics and frame data and stuff like that. One thing a lot of people have focused on in the 1.1.1 patch is how much safer a bunch of top tier characters are on shield. That's really cool and all, but it doesn't buy them much. They were already safe. The characters that benefit the most for the new shield mechanics are characters that were just barely unsafe on shield before. These characters now have a bunch of new approach options on shield and their whole neutral has really changed a lot.

Samus gained a lot of new advantages in the 1.1.1 patch. Before, the only aerial moves that were vaguely safe on shield was uair crossed up, a perfectly spaced bair moving away from your opponent, and zair. Now bair is super safe, nair is safe (longer ranger plus more shield stun), uair is a tiny bit safer, and zair is safe. Finally, the late hit of nair can be safe too if you hit the very end of the late hit and get the autocancel window. This is best on cross up where you hit with the first hit of nair on front of shield and back hit of nair on the other side.

Additionally ftilt and dtilt are much safer on shield at max range than they were before.

Samus is also a shield pressure character. A passive buff Samus got that many of you didn't notice is that most shield break moves were nerfed with the new shield mechanics. In the mean time, none of Samus' shield damaging moves were nerfed. Super missile does 15% shield damage, CS does 28% and bomb (both hits) does 21%. Screw attack also does a ton (48%) of shield damage and breaks shields more now. In addition to having bair (14%) safe on shield, and zair (6.5% vs. shield) being safer on shield, Samus just became the foremost character to net shieldbreaks (IMO). If you haven't kept up with the character, samus has a kill combo on shield break from low percents (bomb to dair, not actual shield break of super missile to charge shot).

Any of the following plus charge shot can break shield now (in addition to the old combo of bomb+CS):

• Strong hit of dair
• Strong hit of bair
• Both hits of nair
• Jab1 + Jab2 (if opponent is super terrible since everyone knows jab1 isn't even safe on shield)
• Utilt (if utilt and CS are both fresh)
• Two zairs where both hits tag the shield

http://smashboards.com/guides/outsmarting-mother-brain.343/

 

[Pazzo.]

Come now, Ryu with the Surge of Murderous Intent isn't DLC yet.

He's not even an alt.

But seriously, Ryu is a monster. I fear the day I must fight a good one.

 

[bc1910]

I think the can is hard get used to but otherwise DHD isn't too hard. And he's pretty good. Definitely not seeing him as a bottom 5 or even bottom 10 character especially not now that frisbee is ridiculous on shield.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think the can is hard get used to but otherwise DHD isn't too hard. And he's pretty good. Definitely not seeing him as a bottom 5 or even bottom 10 character especially not now that frisbee is ridiculous on shield.

I wish they had more KBG.

Then they'd be one of the better Zoners in the game.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think the can is hard get used to but otherwise DHD isn't too hard. And he's pretty good. Definitely not seeing him as a bottom 5 or even bottom 10 character especially not now that frisbee is ridiculous on shield.

How is frisbee ridiculous on shield? It feels about the same or worse to me.

With most characters getting buffs so they actually benefit off rage mode, I can see DHD getting pretty far down on the tier list honestly.

 

[LiteralGrill]

SmashCapps, what is the writing staff?

The staff that writes for Smashboards.

 

[HeroMystic]

1.1.1 is a huge buff for Samus.

Gonna be honest, this seems like an overreaction.

The buffs mentioned are all true, and they do indeed make Samus better, but if with the exception of the N-air buff (which is indeed a very strong buff, as it's now an all-purpose tool), this all doesn't address the faults she has as a character.

Samus still lacks tools to get opponents out of her personal space. She has tools to keep them away, but once they're in she's at their mercy. In addition to this, Samus is still lacking when she loses stage control. When she is at the edge, N-air is her only effective answer against this. Her other options are to SHAD or camp the ledge. Lastly, Samus still has a really silly time netting a kill. Shield-breaking is nice but it's still unknown if this is reliable or not (and I'm pretty sure it won't be).

Samus is better but I'm really doubting she's viable. If the patch gave her more effective stage control (such as bombs exploding on contact or missiles having better IASA frames) then there would be stronger reasons to be hyped, but as it stands it just seems like her new N-air allows her to have a complete moveset that flows better, but isn't quite enough to bring her out of the low tiers.

 

[bc1910]

How is frisbee ridiculous on shield? It feels about the same or worse to me.

With most characters getting buffs so they actually benefit off rage mode, I can see DHD getting pretty far down on the tier list honestly.

According to Thinkaman's list, both the frisbee itself and the 2 shots have 2.0 hitlag multipliers. These make you get stuck in shield for longer when shielding the frisbee; not for twice as long as a regular attack since the 1.25 divider for hitlag is still there for projectiles, but still longer than a regular attack. So frisbee is much safer and harder to punish on shield.

Certainly feels this way when I fight DHD.

 

[Xygonn]

Gonna be honest, this seems like an overreaction.

The buffs mentioned are all true, and they do indeed make Samus better, but if with the exception of the N-air buff (which is indeed a very strong buff, as it's now an all-purpose tool), this all doesn't address the faults she has as a character.

Samus still lacks tools to get opponents out of her personal space. She has tools to keep them away, but once they're in she's at their mercy. In addition to this, Samus is still lacking when she loses stage control. When she is at the edge, N-air is her only effective answer against this. Her other options are to SHAD or camp the ledge. Lastly, Samus still has a really silly time netting a kill. Shield-breaking is nice but it's still unknown if this is reliable or not (and I'm pretty sure it won't be).

Samus is better but I'm really doubting she's viable. If the patch gave her more effective stage control (such as bombs exploding on contact or missiles having better IASA frames) then there would be stronger reasons to be hyped, but as it stands it just seems like her new N-air allows her to have a complete moveset that flows better, but isn't quite enough to bring her out of the low tiers.

I'm not saying she is top tier. I'm saying she is much better. I think the meta need to develop a lot around the new shields before we know what the implications are.

 

[TriTails]

His kill power wasn't nerfed (besides tornado's light nerf), his kill setups were. Pretty key difference. Just from this patch and the last, upb and down air are more reliable move to kill with. He still has better kill moves than the majority of the cast!

Up-B wasn't changed. The one which was altered was Fiery, which is still garbage.

'Better kill moves' don't exactly matter if you yourself struggle to land them. Mario struggles to get a kill despite having above average mobility and that U-smash. Imagine a more DIable U-smash on one of the slowest character in the game. You do the math.

What I always wondered about Luigi was his damage output. The damage he does in Smash 4, while still less than previous Luigis, wouldn't be out of place in Brawl or Melee.

I think it's already common knowledge Luigi needs his high damage output to keep up. While it may make nonsense on a character with the highest overall attack speed, they are on a character with slower airspeed than Ganon and one of the slowest character in the game who fights with his bare hands, stubby bare hands.

Besides, his damage is tame enough. Thinking of 14% N-air or 13% U-air would probably make everyone shudder.

Besides, we're already nerfed. Time for buffs .

 

[Vyrnx]

Gonna be honest, this seems like an overreaction.

The buffs mentioned are all true, and they do indeed make Samus better, but if with the exception of the N-air buff (which is indeed a very strong buff, as it's now an all-purpose tool), this all doesn't address the faults she has as a character.

Samus still lacks tools to get opponents out of her personal space. She has tools to keep them away, but once they're in she's at their mercy. In addition to this, Samus is still lacking when she loses stage control. When she is at the edge, N-air is her only effective answer against this. Her other options are to SHAD or camp the ledge. Lastly, Samus still has a really silly time netting a kill. Shield-breaking is nice but it's still unknown if this is reliable or not (and I'm pretty sure it won't be).

Samus is better but I'm really doubting she's viable. If the patch gave her more effective stage control (such as bombs exploding on contact or missiles having better IASA frames) then there would be stronger reasons to be hyped, but as it stands it just seems like her new N-air allows her to have a complete moveset that flows better, but isn't quite enough to bring her out of the low tiers.

You made really good points--finally, someone who cited real problems Samus has. The nair buff ofc is really great, way better than I thought when I read the patch notes.

But the shield change did fix a big problem that Samus had, which was struggling in the neutral. SHFF bair being safe on shield gives Samus a real neutral, combined with safer zair, safer options out of SHAD, etc. It didn't fix all of her major flaws, but it's not exactly an overreaction because it did fix one of her major flaws. Samus can now compete in the neutral, and, should she win neutral 1-2 times per stock, use her very good advantage state to compensate for her awful disadvantage state.

Something worth exploring after the patch is Samus' shield pressure vs grab, two ways to counter shields. For almost every character the clear winner is grab, but with Samus' now unsurpassed shield pressure (I said it) it may be a better option to whittle shields to the point where the opponent cannot take the risk of using shields--not necessarily getting shield breaks, though it may not be out of the question depending on what we find...

 

[Planty]

Samus can now compete in the neutral, and, should she win neutral 1-2 times per stock, use her very good advantage state to compensate for her awful disadvantage state.

Awful disadvantaged? High weight makes her tough to kill, yet she's not particularly easy to combo. Her recovery is really good and she could mix up landings with bombs. What am I missing?

 

[Vyrnx]

Awful disadvantaged? High weight makes her tough to kill, yet she's not particularly easy to combo. Her recovery is really good and she could mix up landings with bombs. What am I missing?

Samus' disadvantage state is the clear reason why she is considered low tier. She is challenging to combo, but it doesn't matter because she is terrible at landing, to the point where losing neutral once on certain stages can leave Samus at a disadvantaged state for a very long time. Maybe she can escape combos, but she cannot escape juggles and is generally more susceptible to strings. Weight is not nearly as big a factor as being unable to land.

Her recovery is very good, but Samus being stuck on the ledge is not a good place for Samus. She has really good ways of getting off the ledge and onto the stage, some of which can get her out of bad situations, but in general a smart opponent will just step back and trap the Samus against the ledge. Samus needs space to move, and if she loses it, she is in trouble.

 

[TheJolteon]

Awful disadvantaged? High weight makes her tough to kill, yet she's not particularly easy to combo. Her recovery is really good and she could mix up landings with bombs. What am I missing?

Well the fact her jab can not even connect is a disadvantage. Also bomb jumping sucks in this game a the N-air is well bad. I will agree on the recovering as it can kill but being heavy and floaty doesnt mix.

 

[Trifroze]

Samus' bair was definitely always safe on shield and quite easily so. It has so much range and power that it was unpunishable if spaced even remotely well, and after the patch it's just ridiculous similar to how the patch changed top tiers. Nair also used to be safe, but required much better precision.

How much did Robin's aerial safety get buffed? I notice fair, bair and uair can't be punished even by the fastest dash attacks anymore. Maybe Shaya has the numbers or has posted them already?

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus' bair was definitely always safe on shield and quite easily so. It has so much range and power that it was unpunishable if spaced even remotely well, and after the patch it's just ridiculous similar to how the patch changed top tiers. Nair also used to be safe, but required much better precision.

How much did Robin's aerial safety get buffed? I notice fair, bair and uair can't be punished even by the fastest dash attacks anymore. Maybe Shaya has the numbers or has posted them already?

Samus' bair pre patch could be safe on hit but required razor precision. Now it's safe without having to use it while retreating and hitting the tip of the sweetspot. It was really challenging and wasn't reliable in the neutral against many characters. Now it is.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Awful disadvantaged? High weight makes her tough to kill, yet she's not particularly easy to combo. Her recovery is really good and she could mix up landings with bombs. What am I missing?

She gets juggled incredibly easily. When your feet are off the ground, it's hard to get them back there safely without going to the ledge.

 

[Radical Larry]

@HFlash Well, I pick up DHD as one of my many (by many, I mean I play all characters) pockets, so I don't know everything there is about him.

Pazzo. If you're looking for a decent Ryu, hit me up. But if you want an insane Link that'll blow your mind, hit me up and we can certainly play sometime. I got to brush up on my knowledge of Robin anyways (since I pick Robin as one of my secondaries now).

Vyrnx Now on Samus, her B-Air was pretty much good for me for KO hits from attacks like D-Smash or B-Throw through an RAR hit. I use it on shield a bit, just to bring in some pressur here and there.

She gets juggled incredibly easily. When your feet are off the ground, it's hard to get them back there safely without going to the ledge.

Actually, correction, it's almost impossible to get her feet back on the ground unless you can actually hit the opponent due to Samus's very floaty nature and having a floaty fast-fall. It'll also be easy to hit Samus near the ledge anyways due to this. Better use her D-Spec in order to at least give yourself some opportunistic time and safety, because her aerials won't do any good, not even D-Air.

 

[Jamurai]

Being relatively large and floaty with bad landing options is a huge detriment. It's also a major reason why Bowser is so bad as well; imo he's actually the worst character in 1v1s, at least Zelda has a good teleport so she can land. The best character who has this quality is DK, and he has to have ludicrous grab, combo and kill confirm games to be where he is (ie. barely viable). He is held back so much by his appalling disadvantage state, as are Samus, Bowser and others.

 

[TheJolteon]

I know ZeRo says Roy is the best swordsman but I honestly think its Ike after seeing Ryuga at The Big House take out Fatality

 

[Pazzo.]

Radical Larry - I'll be sure to do so. I need the Ryu and Link matchup knowledge.

 

[Smog Frog]

we all think its . its nothing new or radical.

but speaking of , first hit of nair actually has some pretty dank kill confirm potential. first hit->utilt/dsmash. good ****. and if you manage to frame stack it(i wont use frame cancel, ever), you can do usmash out of it.

 

[Ghostbone]

The best swordsman is MK lol
inb4 MK isn't a man he's a puffball

 

[Apeirohaon]

Samus' bair was definitely always safe on shield and quite easily so. It has so much range and power that it was unpunishable if spaced even remotely well, and after the patch it's just ridiculous similar to how the patch changed top tiers. Nair also used to be safe, but required much better precision.

How much did Robin's aerial safety get buffed? I notice fair, bair and uair can't be punished even by the fastest dash attacks anymore. Maybe Shaya has the numbers or has posted them already?

assuming I'm not messing anything up...

fair is -6 (after shield drop)
bair is -5 (after shield drop)
up air is also -5 (after shield drop)

so I think fair might be able to be punished by something like fox's DA (f4, not sure how quickly it covers ground though), but bair is safe

this is up from -10/-10/-9 so pretty nice

 

[HeavyLobster]

we all think its . its nothing new or radical.

but speaking of , first hit of nair actually has some pretty dank kill confirm potential. first hit->utilt/dsmash. good ****. and if you manage to frame stack it(i wont use frame cancel, ever), you can do usmash out of it.

The best swordsman is MK lol
inb4 MK isn't a man he's a puffball

It's at least one of these two. Think Ike's a bit stronger personally but a good MK is really scary.

 

[Mario766]

Ike still has his issues, and MK still has his rather stupid early kill set-ups out of down throw and dash attack.

Ike would really enjoy his smashes being even slightly better. I'm talking a usable D-Smash or Up-Smash not having a sour spot. Having a legit kill confirm would make Ike a lot more rewarding to play as well. It's kinda rough having to get a hard read when some MUs is just grab near ledge -> Kill like Fox/Falcon/Sheik/ZSS.

 

[Smog Frog]

i thought awhile back we agreed that wasnt really a swordsman? or is my memory failing me?

 

[Mario766]

Even a butter knife is considered a sword in Smash Bros.

 

[Shaya]

I think the main notion behind a swordsman is disjointed range on a majority of actions and game play that focuses around said disjoints.
Lucario essentially played similar to a swordsman in Brawl but is now an average CQCer with borked aura scaling (I guess they had to make Greninja more unique somehow). He still kinda has disjoints, but it's not "barely less disjointed than Meta Knight" [well actually, comparatively to now it may still be true] any longer.

Meta Knight isn't really about zoning people out or trapping like a swordsman usually has been in the past. His disjoints aren't really the focus on what he's doing in game, although he sure does like jab, down tilt and forward smash; which is pretty swordsy stuff.

 

[Ghostbone]

i thought awhile back we agreed that wasnt really a swordsman? or is my memory failing me?

I mean, if you're going to define "swordsman" as "fire emblem character + mii swordfighter" then i suppose not.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit's the best swordsman if butter knives don't count and bladed bow dealies do, hehe.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Shiek is the best swordsman. Her Fair is a sword.

 

[Trifroze]

assuming I'm not messing anything up...

fair is -6 (after shield drop)
bair is -5 (after shield drop)
up air is also -5 (after shield drop)

so I think fair might be able to be punished by something like fox's DA (f4, not sure how quickly it covers ground though), but bair is safe

this is up from -10/-10/-9 so pretty nice

They're all looking like -3 after shield drop after some testing, Robin can get her shield up before DK's jab (f5) but not before Ike's (f4). Since shield is frame 2 it looks like the opponent only gets 3 frames of advantage.

Since the moves are all electric and do heavy damage I would've imagined they all got safer by like 10-12 frames with the patch, was it really only -10/-10/-9 after shield drop before?

 

[FullMoon]

Shiek is the best swordsman. Her Fair is a sword.

Seems legit.

So does Greninja count as a swordsman then?

 

[Locke 06]

They're all looking like -3 after shield drop after some testing, Robin can get her shield up before DK's jab (f5) but not before Ike's (f4). Since shield is frame 2 it looks like the opponent only gets 3 frames of advantage.

Since the moves are all electric and do heavy damage I would've imagined they all got safer by like 10-12 frames with the patch, was it really only -10/-10/-9 after shield drop before?

Shield is frame 1. The visual appears on frame 2 unless the shield is hit.

Source: Frame advance zss/Mac jab & shield in training mode.

Just want to avoid miscommunications.

 

[Pazzo.]

Seems legit.

So does Greninja count as a swordsman then?

Greninja has swordsman smash attacks, to be sure.

 

[Apeirohaon]

They're all looking like -3 after shield drop after some testing, Robin can get her shield up before DK's jab (f5) but not before Ike's (f4). Since shield is frame 2 it looks like the opponent only gets 3 frames of advantage.

Since the moves are all electric and do heavy damage I would've imagined they all got safer by like 10-12 frames with the patch, was it really only -10/-10/-9 after shield drop before?

oops, forgot to take into account electric stuff. it was probably worse than that prepatch then; I'm not sure exactly how hitstun mattered in shield safety

...also, all the numbers i posted are off by one. not sure why

so bair and up air are actually -4 I think. whoops

but using bair as an example:
it should have 10 frames of shield stun using this: floor(15 / 1.75 + 2), and it has 21 frames of landing lag. 10 - 21, and then 7 frames of shield drop means 11 - 7 = 4

 

[DunnoBro]

According to Thinkaman's list, both the frisbee itself and the 2 shots have 2.0 hitlag multipliers. These make you get stuck in shield for longer when shielding the frisbee; not for twice as long as a regular attack since the 1.25 divider for hitlag is still there for projectiles, but still longer than a regular attack. So frisbee is much safer and harder to punish on shield.

Certainly feels this way when I fight DHD.

Ah, I didn't know that sorry. I forgot I got in the habit delayed the shots to make them safer on shield by screwing with shield drops but if the shots are just straight better now it looks like I don't need to anymore. (or mix it up differently)