Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[TriTails]

Also Luigi needed 0.00098 more airspeed. I'm being a little sarcastic

Yes. It's a huge buff considering there's like 3 zeros behind the decimals while only being 0.00002 more for it to become 0.001. Just.... lmao.

Can anyone check lemons' safety on shield? They used to be weak to shields due to their 1 frame of shieldstun, but I'm not sure how they fare against the R button now.

 

[Shaya]

Greninja getting a shield drop dash grab/in from nair before meant something, if ZSS jumped or rolled you could punish that, if she jabbed you could shield it.
Less opportunity for that now.
Also side-b is a better move for us now. If you aren't within its range during start up so you can forward roll, you likely can't punish it. Clanks/cancels out shuriken I believe (not fully charged?). A reasonable mid range buff, which was a bit of a deadspot between both characters before (either trying to impose within that zone was likely to get punished).
Well spaced side-b lost it's ability to be punished by MK, Fox and all the best dash attacks (before it wasn't punishable by 90% of the cast, now probably 100%).

Just so we're on the same page here though, it's not like shielding it gives anything to ZSS, and being within its range on reaction (it's poor start up) is a free punish. So no extra q_q please. Paralyzer is kinda bad on shield now in contrast [it went from a 1.0 "natural" modifier, to 0, because of it's properties, even though it's meant to naturally have a 2.0 modifier], which would likely be ruining my ledge trap shenanigans I was working on and probably being more of a nerf overall. So yeah implicit side-b buffs in contrast to implicit paralyzer nerfs which would be more impacting.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja getting a shield drop dash grab/in from nair before meant something, if ZSS jumped or rolled you could punish that, if she jabbed you could shield it.
Less opportunity for that now.
Also side-b is a better move for us now. If you aren't within its range during start up so you can forward roll, you likely can't punish it. Clanks/cancels out shuriken I believe (not fully charged?). A reasonable mid range buff, which was a bit of a deadspot between both characters before (either trying to impose within that zone was likely to get punished).
Well spaced side-b lost it's ability to be punished by MK, Fox and all the best dash attacks (before it wasn't punishable by 90% of the cast, now probably 100%).

Just so we're on the same page here though, it's not like shielding it gives anything to ZSS, and being within its range on reaction (it's poor start up) is a free punish. So no extra q_q please. Paralyzer is kinda bad on shield now in contrast [it went from a 1.0 "natural" modifier, to 0, because of it's properties, even though it's meant to naturally have a 2.0 modifier], which would likely be ruining my ledge trap shenanigans I was working on and probably being more of a nerf overall. So yeah implicit side-b buffs in contrast to implicit paralyzer nerfs which would be more impacting.

How much worse is Paralyzer now exactly? It's probably not going to matter much at least in the Greninja MU but I didn't know it was affected.

And honestly I kinda forgot ZSS's Plasma Whip existed outside of being a tether lol.

 

[Shaya]

Best move in the game, campy ZSS meta is in guys.

... Not really. Paralyzer went from 6 frames hit lag/1 shield stun + 7 frames hit lag/2 shield stun to 0 frames hit lag/3 shield stun. And up to 7 frames shield lock now to 4.
So while it isn't exactly a zoning projectile, it was kinda trump cardy in a given scenario and that's less of a case now.

Side-b benefiting is pleasant, at least. Paralyzer is/was pretty amazing so it's alright (we have more options to dealing with shield now so it doesn't need to be "good" like that).

 

[Mario766]

Hearing Zero say that Ike is overbuffed just makes me appreciate just how much Ike got since release.

Release Ike had:
No throw combos *True ones anyways*
A down tilt that didn't get combos but instead sent you at a very low angle for 'gimps'
A jab combo that didn't link correctly. Anyone remember Greninja vs Ike in release? Jab was unsafe on HIT.
A dash attack that killed at a percent that didn't matter because EVERYTHING ELSE killed you faster.
A F-Air that didn't auto cancel and was unsafe to use...period.

Now Ike has:
True throw combos on the entire cast towards upward to 110 percent
Combo starters with down tilt, N-Air, Down Air and up air.
Jab combo that links, and can combat walk effectively and can combo back into jab 1 through holding A while they are in the air above Ike.
Safety in aerials, being extremely good when spaced.
A dash attack that kills you at EIGHTY.

The only things Ike could possibly want is a combo breaker, a workable down smash and some kind of kill confirm on a chunk of the cast besides like 3-4 characters. Those characters are the most meta characters though so I guess it works?

I know we shouldn't talk about Zero, but did the guy really just

1) Call Ike bad when complimenting Ryuga on their matches at BH5
2) Call Roy the 'best swordsman'
3) Call Ike 'An already good character that was overbuffed'

?????

 

[Shaya]

ZeRo makes videos days/weeks/months/years in advance and waits for people to have been wondering about the related subjects before uploading them.

Overbuffing does result in a character potentially being abusive in match ups they were already good in/balanced around.
So maybe Ike's been overbuffed in the sense that other characters have in contrast been underbuffed, but he's still not a top ten threat.
I think it would be fairer to say Ryu has been overbuffed~

 

[Zannabluke]

when did he say that? genuinely curious

 

[Mario766]

when did he say that? genuinely curious

He said the overbuff comment in his latest video, just about at the end.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja/Pika is probably even. Pika gets insane close range pressure, really nice low percent combos and some kill combos that work well on Greninja's fall speed class. Greninja has a very unique anti-QA tool in Hydro Pump (can be thrown out in neutral, beats QA cleanly and allows for probably the hardest feasible punishes in the game) and is one of the only characters who can feasibly gimp Pikachu. Plus generally higher mobility and range. Greninja couldn't punish Pika on shield anyway and Pika now doesn't get free dashgrabs from a shielded Fair so funnily enough, Greninja probably benefits more from the patch in this particular MU.

Greninja/ZSS we SHOULD lose but don't in practice. It's incredibly weird. She just doesn't overpower him in neutral like she should, and if she can't get her kill combos she will struggle to kill such a mobile character with Bair spam or Up B OoS. Prepatch we couldn't touch her shield with a barge pole, now we have multiple moves with which to pressure her. Greninja is generally better at killing her (Usmash can kill any flip jump overextension with good reactions) but doesn't punish nearly as hard. Greninja did quite like his shield in this MU, with the new patch this might move to her favour because she just got SO dumb, although he couldn't punish Nair. Again I don't see much changing but I think this hovers between even and 55:45 Zero Suit. Shaya what exactly happened to paralyser? Why is it worse on shield? Do you know if shurikens are better or worse on shield?

Greninja/Ryu no idea. Keeping him out and running away from him isn't hard in my experience but I haven't played a really good one.

Fox I feel got better with the patch. Again, Fox always destroyed our shield, but now we can actually poke at him and try to wall him out with Fair and Ftilt without constantly getting hit by OoS dash attack. As we get better at resetting to the ledge with Hydro Pump to stop his dash attack landing punishes, and also edgeguarding him, I can see this approaching even.

Sheik still beats us but I don't think she destroys us as bad as before for similar reasons to Fox.

I don't think Sonic beats us and haven't done for a long time. It really is as simple as learning how to deal with Spin Dash and reacting to his dash ins. He doesn't exert the up close pressure you usually need to beat Greninja, despite his mobility.

I do think we lose to Wario and Toon Link. The former just outbuttons us and has annoyingly good mobility, the latter creates the hardest zoning wall in the game for Greninja to get through. We may also lose to Diddy, he can lame us out and neutral and though matches with him are always close, he usually pips Greninja to the post. This happens a lot at high level if you watch Some and other Greninjas. I don't think we exploit his recovery enough though.

Our best MU is Ganondorf most likely, Jiggs isn't that easy to beat.

 

[adom4]

Greninja/Pika is probably even. Pika gets insane close range pressure, really nice low percent combos and some kill combos that work well on Greninja's fall speed class. Greninja has a very unique anti-QA tool in Hydro Pump (can be thrown out in neutral, beats QA cleanly and allows for probably the hardest feasible punishes in the game) and is one of the only characters who can feasibly gimp Pikachu. Plus generally higher mobility and range. Greninja couldn't punish Pika on shield anyway and Pika now doesn't get free dashgrabs from a shielded Fair so funnily enough, Greninja probably benefits more from the patch in this particular MU.

Greninja/ZSS we SHOULD lose but don't in practice. It's incredibly weird. She just doesn't overpower him in neutral like she should, and if she can't get her kill combos she will struggle to kill such a mobile character with Bair spam or Up B OoS. Prepatch we couldn't touch her shield with a barge pole, now we have multiple moves with which to pressure her. Greninja is generally better at killing her (Usmash can kill any flip jump overextension with good reactions) but doesn't punish nearly as hard. Greninja did quite like his shield in this MU, with the new patch this might move to her favour because she just got SO dumb, although he couldn't punish Nair. Again I don't see much changing but I think this hovers between even and 55:45 Zero Suit. Shaya what exactly happened to paralyser? Why is it worse on shield? Do you know if shurikens are better or worse on shield?

Greninja/Ryu no idea. Keeping him out and running away from him isn't hard in my experience but I haven't played a really good one.

Fox I feel got better with the patch. Again, Fox always destroyed our shield, but now we can actually poke at him and try to wall him out with Fair and Ftilt without constantly getting hit by OoS dash attack. As we get better at resetting to the ledge with Hydro Pump to stop his dash attack landing punishes, and also edgeguarding him, I can see this approaching even.

Sheik still beats us but I don't think she destroys us as bad as before for similar reasons to Fox.

I don't think Sonic beats us and haven't done for a long time. It really is as simple as learning how to deal with Spin Dash and reacting to his dash ins. He doesn't exert the up close pressure you usually need to beat Greninja, despite his mobility.

I do think we lose to Wario and Toon Link. The former just outbuttons us and has annoyingly good mobility, the latter creates the hardest zoning wall in the game for Greninja to get through. We may also lose to Diddy, he can lame us out and neutral and though matches with him are always close, he usually pips Greninja to the post. This happens a lot at high level if you watch Some and other Greninjas. I don't think we exploit his recovery enough though.

Our best MU is Ganondorf most likely, Jiggs isn't that easy to beat.

I haven't played that many Greninjas but i agree on that part from what i've played, it's easily one of Dorf's harsest MUs.

 

[Radical Larry]

Too bad it weakens over time.

Well, the attack may weaken over time, but it can still string well into itself with enough time and practice. Plus, that weakening isn't much of a problem if the opponent's around 120%-150% (weight dependent) and Link has rage. The second Link activates the attack under the opponent, if they can't use anything to get away, they'll be hit by the initial hit. If they use air dodge, they'll still get hit if Link can follow them.

Now out of U-Air, people have to treat Link's F-Air much like Ike's, since it's best used that way. Yes, it may be used as a follow up from Bombs or Boomerang, but it works very well as a standalone attack for footsies, offensive play. This also applies to Link's D-Tilt, which you must treat like Ike's, since both characters have fast D-Tilts that have follow ups and almost the same angles, and even poke shields pretty well. (Should I mention that Link can repeatedly use D-Tilt from a distance on an opponent shielding and set up for a shield break?)

 

[Mario766]

Link's F-Air does not operate like Ike's F-Air. Stop making these comparisons.

Ike's hits way above him, leaving it as a good juggle option on platform stages, as the range is absolutely MASSIVE. I'm talking BF top platform on a short hop massive. It's frame 12 to your frame 14-15 frame 26-27 2 hit move. Your move also doesn't auto cancel, though I guess it doesn't need to with only 12 frames of landing lag. Ike's F-Air is much better for combos and for killing in general, as Ike has better kill confirms and covers a much better area around him.

His D-Tilt is also not as good as Ike's. It's frame 11 compared to our frame 7. It doesn't set up nearly as well as Ike's due to our better combo options and aerials that work better for combos, as we get guaranteed F-Air and B-Air follow-ups out of it.



For more Ike news: I'm watching 9B's smashfest happening and there's a rather good Ike named Nojinko. I'm pleasantly surprised that there's an Ike out there in Japan.

 

[Rizen]

Edit Mario766 beat me to it.

Well, the attack may weaken over time, but it can still string well into itself with enough time and practice. Plus, that weakening isn't much of a problem if the opponent's around 120%-150% (weight dependent) and Link has rage. The second Link activates the attack under the opponent, if they can't use anything to get away, they'll be hit by the initial hit. If they use air dodge, they'll still get hit if Link can follow them.

Now out of U-Air, people have to treat Link's F-Air much like Ike's, since it's best used that way. Yes, it may be used as a follow up from Bombs or Boomerang, but it works very well as a standalone attack for footsies, offensive play. This also applies to Link's D-Tilt, which you must treat like Ike's, since both characters have fast D-Tilts that have follow ups and almost the same angles, and even poke shields pretty well. (Should I mention that Link can repeatedly use D-Tilt from a distance on an opponent shielding and set up for a shield break?)

Link's Fair is different from Ike's. I agree with most of that except the Dtilt part. A frame 11 Dtilt isn't exactly a "fast tilt". It has 17 frames of end lag, ending frame 29, which isn't bad but it's not something you can spam on an opponent's shield. Compare it to other Dtilts: Ike's Dtilt is frame 7, ends 29. Lucina's starts frame 7 and ends 24. They have similar range.

My feelings about Link are he, like most characters, can compete sometimes. I'm not saying he's solo viable though. Even low tiers aren't anywhere near as bad as they were in Brawl. But relative to other characters Link is lacking. Some minor frame data buffs would do him wonders.

 

[Tri Knight]

Well, the attack may weaken over time, but it can still string well into itself with enough time and practice. Plus, that weakening isn't much of a problem if the opponent's around 120%-150% (weight dependent) and Link has rage. The second Link activates the attack under the opponent, if they can't use anything to get away, they'll be hit by the initial hit. If they use air dodge, they'll still get hit if Link can follow them.

Now out of U-Air, people have to treat Link's F-Air much like Ike's, since it's best used that way. Yes, it may be used as a follow up from Bombs or Boomerang, but it works very well as a standalone attack for footsies, offensive play. This also applies to Link's D-Tilt, which you must treat like Ike's, since both characters have fast D-Tilts that have follow ups and almost the same angles, and even poke shields pretty well. (Should I mention that Link can repeatedly use D-Tilt from a distance on an opponent shielding and set up for a shield break?)

Ike's D-tilt is way faster. His F-air has a much better hitbox. I'm not seeing the relevance.

I like your enthusiasm over the character but you're making him way better than what he really is. He's great in high mid as Rizen had said. But he won't get any further than that because of his god awful mobility and sluggish attacks. He's great in For Glory but that's just about it. He struggles against any actual competent player in high level play.

Now give him less lag times on his attacks, less jump squat lag, and maybe even a little more mobility and that could be a whole different story.

 

[FullMoon]

Do you know if shurikens are better or worse on shield?

From what I'm seeing in the frame data they're either the same as before or 1 frame safer.

Also I really disagree with us losing to Toon Link and that's a MU I have plenty of experience with.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's F-Air does not operate like Ike's F-Air. Stop making these comparisons.

Ike's hits way above him, leaving it as a good juggle option on platform stages, as the range is absolutely MASSIVE. I'm talking BF top platform on a short hop massive. It's frame 12 to your frame 14-15 frame 26-27 2 hit move. Your move also doesn't auto cancel, though I guess it doesn't need to with only 12 frames of landing lag. Ike's F-Air is much better for combos and for killing in general, as Ike has better kill confirms and covers a much better area around him.

His D-Tilt is also not as good as Ike's. It's frame 11 compared to our frame 7. It doesn't set up nearly as well as Ike's due to our better combo options and aerials that work better for combos, as we get guaranteed F-Air and B-Air follow-ups out of it.



For more Ike news: I'm watching 9B's smashfest happening and there's a rather good Ike named Nojinko. I'm pleasantly surprised that there's an Ike out there in Japan.

But I'm not talking about vertical reach, which Ike can do wonders in. Link's horizontal reach happens to be superior to Ike's (from various tests), so Link can get a horizontal reach down on Ike pretty easily.

And with D-Tilt, I know it's not as good as Ike's, but Link can get some easy follow ups out of it as well, with N-Air, F-Air and U-Air all having followups, with U-Air being a good followup at higher damages. Link can also use the time to jump back from the opponent and send out the boomerang toward them, so there are still good guaranteed followups.

 

[Prometheus16]

Can anyone check lemons' safety on shield? They used to be weak to shields due to their 1 frame of shieldstun, but I'm not sure how they fare against the R button now.

I've heard people constantly say that Mega Man's side-tilts are probably the best side-tilts in the game, but I honestly don't understand how that works.... (could you maybe explain?)

They move you towards your opponent, and don't cause any knock-back, meaning they only stun the opponent for a few frames....

 

[Tri Knight]

But I'm not talking about vertical reach, which Ike can do wonders in. Link's horizontal reach happens to be superior to Ike's (from various tests), so Link can get a horizontal reach down on Ike pretty easily.

And with D-Tilt, I know it's not as good as Ike's, but Link can get some easy follow ups out of it as well, with N-Air, F-Air and U-Air all having followups, with U-Air being a good followup at higher damages. Link can also use the time to jump back from the opponent and send out the boomerang toward them, so there are still good guaranteed followups.

What you're implying is that Link will always be able to space out Ike with his F-air. It doesn't work that way. Ike's F-air is still 2 frames faster, covers a much much broader area, kills more consistently, and all for a little less horizontal reach.

 

[PUK]

Because he shot numerous lemons but he doesn't have lag before three i think. So he can ftlit jab and nair like if it was jab 123

 

[Radical Larry]

I've heard people constantly say that Mega Man's side-tilts are probably the best side-tilts in the game, but I honestly don't understand how that works.... (could you maybe explain?)

They move you towards your opponent, and don't cause any knock-back, meaning they only stun the opponent for a few frames....

But seriously, the safety of Mega Man's lemons on shield aren't guaranteed against tether grabbers or speedy characters due to the endlag of the attack. Some opponents have amazing OoS and grab options to punish the lemons on shield, and some don't need to resort to shield if they know what they're doing, like characters with better spacing, projectiles and reflectors.

What you're implying is that Link will always be able to space out Ike with his F-air. It doesn't work that way. Ike's F-air is still 2 frames faster, covers a much much broader area, kills more consistently, and all for a little less horizontal reach.

Then again, I can block Ike's attack; since it's a single-hit attack compared to Link's double-hit attack, Ike won't be able to space away as well as Link can. Also, Link's F-Air has 6 frames less landing lag and 5 frames less FAF than Ike's F-Air, so Link can get out of his attack faster than Ike.

If Link and Ike go against each other horizontally, Link's F-Air may actually hold the advantage. If Link's any higher than Ike, Ike holds the advantage with broader area. However, if both of them land before the attacks finish, Link has the advantage with his superior landing lag. Ike's attack may come out faster, but Link still holds the advantage if he's equal to or lower than Ike's elevation.

Link's F-Air is also better to use after letting go of the edge, jumping then F-Air toward the stage because Link deals more damage for shield pressure, the attack links up better and can easily allow Link to space backward in the event of a shield.

But yes, Ike's can be better if it comes out first and it has the admirable knockback for a kill, but Link has the superior damage, can link up, and has the superior landing and endlag than Ike does. In fact, almost all of Link's aerials have superior langing lag than Ike's, with the exception of D-Air, which Ike is superior with the endlag.

So it's a broad argument that may happen between the characters on who has the better F-Air, because both have really great F-Air attacks.

 

[Gunla]

I've got some experience with Toon Link from the previous patch (going to practice more with this patch tonight) and it's not an MU we lose, at least in my ventures. It's definitely one of the harder MUs, however; TLink's arsenal is harassing and definitely is not a pushover, especially seeing how we can shut down his recovery and certain other things he can do with shuriken.

I've played lots of Diddy (a good bud of mine and one of my usual sparring partners is a Diddy) and I think it's still even. Diddy is a strong character but I don't find that I have any issues with the MU as a whole with the many Diddys I have played. Lot of it comes down to stages though.

Forgot about the Dorf as well. That one is really bad for Ganon, but not impossible. Probably a 65:35 like Jiggs, I'd say.

This patch makes me really want to reevaluate the Ike, ZSS and Pika MUs, however. Fortunately next week I'll be doing just that, at least 2/3.

 

[Ffamran]

Overbuffing does result in a character potentially being abusive in match ups they were already good in/balanced around.
So maybe Ike's been overbuffed in the sense that other characters have in contrast been underbuffed, but he's still not a top ten threat.
I think it would be fairer to say Ryu has been overbuffed~

Speaking of which, does Ike have any 80:20 or remotely invalidate anyone? I'm going with no. Feel like I should tag San, Ryuga, and someone else... I bet Ike has a/some 70:30, but that might be the max. Ike's clearly nothing like Sheik or any of the marginally stronger characters in Melee and Brawl. The changes to Ike are significant, but I don't think any of them caused major issues against other characters. For example, technically, Ike always had the same Fair, but like Meta Knight, the hitboxes weren't correct.

Ike is, however, an example of significant buffing and a "proper" one at that. Nothing Ike gained are polarizing or extreme like DK gaining a really strong kill setup out of cargo U-throw or the insanity that is Charizard's U-throw. Those aren't really good examples of buffing since they just overpower a move to compensate issues with the character. Ike's changes were concentrated around how he functions like making jab connect quicker, fixing Fair's hitbox, making dash attack not completely useless, or making Ftilt more consistent. Those kinds of changes including toning and improving things around a character like Diddy are good examples of buffs/nerfs. The poorest examples would be Link, Sheik, and even Captain Falcon. Link's jab change seemed more like a thoughtless hotfix - he has been getting compensated with incremental Spin Attack power -, Sheik was nerfed in the wrong ways where Bair and even Fair were nerfed, but Fair still remains an issue - still, the shield stun changes at least make it so Sheik's not the only one safe on shield - and Captain Falcon got somewhat minor nerfs to Uair and Bair, a proper hitbox to rapid jab finisher, but what about his other moves like Up Smash, Down Smash, or Ftilt? Those underused moves? Hell, you could make Side Smash even stronger and remove the disjoint. Seriously, that disjoint shouldn't exist and if he and Ganondorf really needed range for Side Smash, why are they doing weird elbow thrusts? Captain Falcon had a perfectly fine Side Smash in 64 and you could just give Ganondorf a spinning backfist like Guile? and Charlie in Street Fighter.

 

[Vipermoon]

Radical Larry We need to talk about your claims.

If Ike usually outranges Marth how can Link possibly hold up? Link's Fsmash and Dsmash outrange Marth's. However, jabs, tilts, and aerials hands down go to Marth.

Also this topic is dumb.

 

[Amadeus9]

Um how do comparisons between swordsman ALWAYS come down to range. It doesn't make sense. Shulk is not the best swordsman and Meta Knight is not the worst. Can we stop using range like it's some end all character attribute?

 

[PUK]

Um how do comparisons between swordsman ALWAYS come down to range.?

Swordman are man before anything you know

 

[Mario766]

You really don't know Ike.

You won't act faster out of F-Air to us, because our F-Air auto cancels on a short hop. Ike controls air faster, so we can space better than Link, and our moves WILL have less landing lag because we have actual auto cancels.

To answer your question, Ike doesn't invalidate anyone because it comes down to the Ike player ability to space. The best Mu we have would be likely 6-4 and I honestly have no idea who that'd be.

 

[Pazzo.]

So...

Uses a sword does not equal true swordsman?

 

[LancerStaff]

Dunno how we can talk about Ryu's bad matchups and completely ignore Pit but whatever...

 

[MachoCheeze]

Dunno how we can talk about Ryu's bad matchups and completely ignore Pit but whatever...

Well I mean most people ignore Pit so...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Against Ryu if you have strong runaway and/or buttons that can beat his (sword wielder for example) then you will have a much easier time. The meta vs Ryu is to run the **** away. It is just too stupid to approach a character who has risk vs reward almost entirely in their favor at all times during neutral.

Since Ryu IS neutral game, losing in that state of the game makes things rough for him. Honestly he SHOULD have some 3-7s but all the characters that beat him on paper are just so flawed that he can capitalize which closes the gap. For example Roy beats Ryu, but Ryu can crap on Roy's recovery like everyone else and Ryu can utilt lock him bad. This match imo should be almost impossible for Roy to lose if he plays well but one guess from Ryu can seal a stock. And a single mistake means Roy takes around 30% damage at minimum.

Lucas just runs away all day and with b-stick specials, Ryu has to basically hard guess to hit him. But the reward for Lucas hitting a PK fire is so trivial. Ryu gets ALOT of chances to make something happen vs Lucas.

Same thing vs Megaman. Megaman has the tools to run all day, but if Ryu guess right, he hurts Megaman hard. And Megaman has a really hard time killing.

Links imo are even. They can run sure but they commit to projectiles more so then others and bombs can be caught by Ryu and used against them supplementing Hadouken pressure.

Basically Ryu loses to characters that kinda suck, but since they suck and have sucky flaws he doesnt suffer as much as he should.

Sucks to be a sucky mid tier or lower I guess.

 

[Xandercosm]

Shulk is the worst swordsman and Meta Knight is the best.

Fixed it.

 

[Ffamran]

You really don't know Ike.
You won't act faster out of F-Air to us, because our F-Air auto cancels on a short hop. Ike controls air faster, so we can space better than Link, and our moves WILL have less landing lag because we have actual auto cancels.

Granted, if both don't auto-cancel their Fair - Link can't do it in a short hop anyways... -, Link's going to win since his only has 12 frames while Ike has 18. Damage-wise, Ike's going to win since his does 12% while Link's might not connect completely leaving him with either 8% or 10%, but if he does fully connect it, then Link wins. Hitbox-wise, it's Ike. The ability to cover above and below him to Link's just in front and behind? makes Ike's Fair that safer of a move.

Spoiler: Thoughts on some multi-hit aerials

I forgot about this and it's not really related to Link... Has anyone noticed that some multi-hit aerials tend to have more landing lag than most aerials. They do have more active frames, but some of them do pitiful damage like Fox's Fair does 7.4%, but has 27 frames of landing lag and Fox's Dair does 11.4% with 25 frames of landing lag, Falco's Fair used to do 8% with 32 frames of landing lag, now it's 9% and 25, Sonic and Ness's does 8% with 26 frames of landing lag, Zelda's does 11% or 9% with 19 frames of landing lag - it's more or less a crappier Falco Nair thanks to 1.0.8 -, ZSS's Fair does 12% with 16 frames of landing lag - second highest before Dair's 30 -, the Pits Nair (8.9%) and Uair (10%) have 24 frames of landing lag and Fair (7%) has 20, Mario's Dair does 10% with 19 frames of landing lag, Dr. Mario's does 10.976% - I kid you not - with 21 frames of landing lag, Palutena's Nair does 11.5% with 20 frames of landing lag and Uair does 10% with 24 frames of landing lag, Pikachu's does 12.6% with 30 frames of landing lag, Sheik's Uair does 10% with 21 frames of landing lag, Rosalina's Fair does 9% with 20 frames of landing lag, and Samus's Fair does 12%? with 25 - I can't remember the 1.1.1 changes - frames of landing lag.

Looking at in in a vacuum, some of them are really bad like Fox, Falco, Sonic, Ness, the Pits', and Samus's Fair when there are single hit moves with similar landing lag or even less that do the same or more damage like Ike's Fair or Luigi's Bair. Adding auto-cancel windows makes things better, but only for some like Fox's Dair auto-cancel window is 6 frames after Dair ends and even then, it has a landing hit that can save Fox. Some moves also last forever like Pikachu's Bair. Some characters, however, aren't that fortunate like Samus or the fact some multi-hits don't even link well most of the time like Link's Fair which can end up whiffing the first hit at higher percents or how in a vacuum of Sonic and Ness, Ness's Fair is better since its disjointed while Sonic's isn't.

Most of these moves can't chain together past high percents like Falco's Fair or even low percents like ZSS's Fair? - correct me if I'm wrong. So, even if say, Fox had 17 frames of landing lag for Fair, he probably won't really get that much, especially since Bair does 13% and can auto-cancel at practically any time. In some cases, some of them are strictly worse like Dr. Mario's Dair has almost no redeeming qualities compared to Fox's which is twice as fast or even Mario's which is not only twice as fast, but has a hitbox that covers Mario more. Oh, sure, it has slightly better knockback growth for the last hit compared to Mario's, but the fact Mario can glide around with his Dair or the fact Fox can setup Up Smash makes Dr. Mario's Dair not look so hot.

In a vacuum, they're not that great, but in context to how they work with the character, some of them are really good like Fox's Dair or Mario's Dair. Some aren't meant for hop use like Falco's Fair and Pikachu's Bair which are more for jump or off-stage use where they get to abuse active frames or combo usage like Sonic, Samus, and Ness's Fair or Sheik's Uair or the way Mario works making Dair a stupid move to approach and bait people to challenge him. At the same time, some things are questionable like the landing lag on them when other multi-hits like Captain Falcon's Nair (12) or Samus's Uair 12 to her Fair's 30 have much less landing lag, but have similar recovery and similar damage. Zelda's Nair for instance only has slightly better auto-cancel after the move ends, 38 to Falco's 43, but it has 3 more frames of startup and 4 more frames of landing lag and does 11% in front or 9% in the back which makes it less consistent to Falco's. There is a consequence of adding auto-link angles to Falco's Nair and taking 1% off of it and it's not only to Falco or the consequence of lowering Falco's Fair startup and landing lag so much that it makes Sonic and even Pikachu's look kind of bad since without auto-link angles, they can't lock people in the entire move nor do they have a landing hit which I question why Falco has one since there's almost no reason for him to have a landing hit animation-wise - Moonsault Slash for Falco, please. Man, it'd be scary as hell if Sonic and Pikachu could both drag people down with their Fairs - that would mean Pikachu would have two auto-linking aerials to gimp you.

 

[Nocally]

Man, it'd be scary as hell if Sonic and Pikachu could both drag people down with their Fairs - that would mean Pikachu would have two auto-linking aerials to gimp you.

Pikachu´s Fair does drag the opponent down (not that potent though), and it semi spikes depending on where you hit with it.

 

[Drarky]

I've heard people constantly say that Mega Man's side-tilts are probably the best side-tilts in the game, but I honestly don't understand how that works.... (could you maybe explain?)

They move you towards your opponent, and don't cause any knock-back, meaning they only stun the opponent for a few frames....

I don't think is the best, but it's a very good one not because of the power, but because of it's flexibility.

FTilt shoots only the first lemon, meaning you can keep moving forward, change direction, jump or anything we really want to. So even if you block the lemons, we can just move away and leave you in the same position as before, or we can try to go for a mix up with NAir or grab.

Mega Man's pellets are a pretty huge think and could easily be considered some of the best moves because they sacrifice 3 options that other character have. Not having an FTilt/Jab/NAir, means that the character doesn't have any "get off me" option like Ness or Luigi. And in the end I think it comes down to the person who's playing to say if it is really worth more having the pellets or normal moves.

I find it worth but it can definitely be painful to watch yourself getting comboed and say "Man if only I had a GTFO option..."

 

[Vyrnx]

What's this about the Japanese having ZSS at #1? Did they make a new tier list or did one of their players say this or what?

 

[Ffamran]

Pikachu´s Fair does drag the opponent down, and it semi spikes depending on where you hit with it.

I meant in a more "guaranteed" way. You can drop low and gimp with Sonic or Pikachu's Fair, but unlike Falco's Nair and Fair, Fox's Fair, or Pikachu's Bair, they won't lock you into the entire move. Auto-link angles forces the opponent to follow the attacker letting the entire move play out. Some multi-hits work fine without them including Pikachu and Sonic's Fair, but they're usually less than 3 hits like Fox's Uair, Falco's Up Smash, or Captain Falcon's Nair. Without them, there can be cases like Falco's Nair before patch 1.0.8 doing anywhere from 3% to 12% because the hits connected unreliably or Samus's Up Smash which for whatever reason only has auto-link angles on the first and fourth hits, but not the rest and how her Uair can sometimes not connect properly at all compared to Sheik's which does have auto-link angles for the looping hits. Auto-link angles would more or less make them guarantee that the move will always connect until the end.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Little mac has the best ftilt in the game by FAR. Do I even have to explain why?

 

[Pazzo.]

Little mac has the best ftilt in the game by FAR. Do I even have to explain why?

Please do.

 

[RonNewcomb]

He's great in high mid as Rizen had said. But he won't get any further than that because of his god awful mobility and sluggish attacks. He's great in For Glory but that's just about it. He struggles against any actual competent player in high level play.

Now give him less lag times on his attacks, less jump squat lag, and maybe even a little more mobility and that could be a whole different story.

They'll never give Link less lag on his sword attacks or more mobility. Link with better frame data on that hard-hitting sword makes me ask why anyone would then play Ike. Link with better sword frames and/or mobility but without the power just makes him a worse Toon Link.

What I'd wish is they remove the three years of endlag on his fastest ground attack, the 4f Spin attack. I don't need that move to kill, cause Link's tilts & aerials & smashes kill, nor to rack damage, cause again Link has no issue racking damage if he's given some space to throw out attacks. I need that move as a fast, safe, almost spammable gtfo move. Because Link needs people to get out of his personal space so he gets a chance to move.

I don't care if the quickspin cannot hit a crouching Kirby/G&W, I don't care if the quickspin is unsafe on hit vs the superheavyweights whom already have issues in the Link MU, I just want a GTFO move I can throw out as a poke against some of the more suffocating speedy rushdown types.

I was really disappointed in his up-B customs, particularly Whirling Leap which doesn't even have a grounded version.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well I mean most people ignore Pit so...

*sigh* Pretty much.

It still drives me nuts when people say stuff like "Pit can't land" or "he's easy to gimp" or even "Dark Pit's slower and more powerful." (How are there people who still believe that?) Actually, nearly every perceived drawback to the character is wrong from my experience. "Arrows are useless in neutral," "his range is bad," "he moves slow," "frame data is bad," "multihit attacks don't link properly," "really light," "easy to combo," "lacking air game," "struggles with projectiles," and heck, you can't even truly say he doesn't have kill setups. (SHAC Dair > ground bounce > U/Fsmash)

Yeah, he has trouble killing, but that's it. Not too hard to work around with rage.