Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Browny]

Ok that's just not true. Jack of All Trades characters ARE good in regular fighters. A Ken player won SF4 Evo. Ky Kiske also frequently wins tournaments. All rounders are amazing when done well.

That makes sense, but it has literally nothing to do with smash. At no time did Tri Knight talk about street fighter.

In smash, the all rounders are never top tier.

 

[Nobie]

One thing I never see from Link players is full utilization of his quick vertical movement. I keep picturing a link that is essentially a giant projectile-hurling, sword swinging wall and it doesn't happen.

 

[meleebrawler]

Really? When?

Also, it makes sense for Mario to be middleweight. And he's not THAT short.

If we want to say a short but heavy character... Mega Man and Wario (Especially Wario. His weight is near someone with an effing metal suit) comes to mind.

Meanwhile. Mewtwo.

Low weight is pretty much the only way to convey Mewtwo's relative frailty (by Legendary standards) in Smash.
And if we're still ****hing about Pokedex descriptions, Pikachu and Jigglypuff are giants in Smash (also Olimar but no one complains because there's no comparison to make).

The best defence for Mewtwo is a good offence, and by that I mean selecting the right move to defeat or counter the opponent's. You know, like in an actual Pokemon battle.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The reason I didn't say Pit beats Ryu is because I don't think he does.

He can get a gimp if he manages to get Ryu off the stage. During neutral however I do not feel his disjoints are enough for him to claim victory. And of course out right killing is a real problem. And Pit's recovery is not hard to harass either.

Arrows on stage are a mere annoyance. They are not adept zoning tools, more like long range pressure to force an approach. A blocked/dodged arrow at mid range means Pit gets his face rearranged so he wouldn't risk throwing out one there.

His main advantage in this fight is the ability to make FA a non issue with several multihit attacks. His reward for trying to outspace Ryu however is low. Actually his damage is quite average across the board. He has some low percent grab follow ups and some nice traps dude to arrows and lingering hitboxes but as a character he is not incredibly deadly. Ryu gets to make alot of mistakes. Once Pit hits about 80% even a careless SH aerial can be his demise.

Hell I could be wrong though. Pit might demolish Ryu.

Idk.

I just uppercut people.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Do you guys think has a chance of being really good someday? The latest patch made things harder for us and we don't get any fancy buffs beyond minor Leaf Shield buffs. It makes me depressed and not seeing Mega Man used that often makes me believe he's a bad character.

 

[Tri Knight]

Ok that's just not true. Jack of All Trades characters ARE good in regular fighters. A Ken player won SF4 Evo. Ky Kiske also frequently wins tournaments. All rounders are amazing when done well.

That was kinda my point. I worded it wrong I guess... You've got Mario who is considered all-rounded right? He was built to be able to handle that task. Well then you have Link who is all-rounded the wrong way. He's limited by the way he was built. PM had done it right but then again it's PM.

But then again do you see Mario being top tier? He's good but he's not the best is he? This, again, is because he was built correctly. Link was definitely built canonicaly, but not correctly. So yes, his versatility holds him back when he could be focusing on sword with projectiles as support.

 

[Smog Frog]

Spoiler: :4mewtwo: weight compared to other legendaries

except.... is average bulk among legendaries. 106/90/90(286 overall) is pretty in the middle. overall, there's plenty of legendaries below him in defensive stats.
deoxys-normal(150 overall)
deoxys-attack(90 overall)
deoxys-speed(230 overall)
terrakion/keldeo(271 overall)
azelf(215 overall)
latios(270 overall)
tornadus(229 overall)
tornadus-therian(239 overall)
thundurus both formes(229 overall)
darkrai(250 overall)
meloetta-pirouette(267 overall)
raikou(265 overall)
entei(275 overall)
landorus both formes(259 overall)
zapdos(265 overall)
moltres(275 overall)
genesect(261 overall)
hoopa both formes(270)
shaymin sky(250)

thats 23 if we count mons with 2 formes as 2. there are 53 legendary pokemon(if we count mons w/ multiple forms that arent mega evolutions/primal reversions)

our cat is 24/53 on the legendary weight scale. that seems in the middle.

i'm fine with weights in smash(except for the pokemons overall).

but off of the topic of weight, oos. who has the best overall oos game? it seems like it could go to a variety of characters( etc.)

 

[TriTails]

In smash, the all rounders are never top tier.

True, but all-rounders usually can just play a lot of games decently instead of playing a sytle impressively but badly on the other. this allows big amount of creativity on the character, increasing depth. People may say 'All-rounders can do everything, but someone always do something better' but to me, all-rounders don't beat you in one sytle, but instead they mix up multiple sytles to out-maneuver you. Mario is worse than Luigi in damage wracking, but then he can play Cape shenanigans to stop him from getting the grab (And to send back his own Fireballs), Fireball to zone and use his mobility to camp him out, or use his frame 2 repeatable jab whenever neccesary (After all, Luigi doesn't have an attack that is faster than frame 2, same as him).

In the end of my analysis anyway. All rounders may never be top tiers but they can always put in work. It's just up to players on playing them. After all, all rounders tend to have MUs no worse than 4:6 or better than 6:4.

IMO, the most balanced character is actually Pit. Mario is more of a speedster sytle. Moves fast, hits weak.

 

[FullMoon]

Outside of Mewtwo the weight of the Pokémon characters seem to be pretty consistent with how they're said to weigh, Jigglypuff < Pikachu < Greninja < Lucario < Charizard

Greninja's weight is actually pretty accurate overall, he actually weighs around a kid's average weight and he does share his value with both Ness and Lucas.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Spoiler: :4mewtwo: weight compared to other legendaries

except.... is average bulk among legendaries. 106/90/90(286 overall) is pretty in the middle. overall, there's plenty of legendaries below him in defensive stats.
deoxys-normal(150 overall)
deoxys-attack(90 overall)
deoxys-speed(230 overall)
terrakion/keldeo(271 overall)
azelf(215 overall)
latios(270 overall)
tornadus(229 overall)
tornadus-therian(239 overall)
thundurus both formes(229 overall)
darkrai(250 overall)
meloetta-pirouette(267 overall)
raikou(265 overall)
entei(275 overall)
landorus both formes(259 overall)
zapdos(265 overall)
moltres(275 overall)
genesect(261 overall)
hoopa both formes(270)
shaymin sky(250)

thats 23 if we count mons with 2 formes as 2. there are 53 legendary pokemon(if we count mons w/ multiple forms that arent mega evolutions/primal reversions)

our cat is 24/53 on the legendary weight scale. that seems in the middle.

i'm fine with weights in smash(except for the pokemons overall).

but off of the topic of weight, oos. who has the best overall oos game? it seems like it could go to a variety of characters( etc.)

It's between Doc and Charizard (most likely zard). Zard has that quick Usmash and invincible and meaty up b of death that kills at like 90. That's pretty hard to top.

 

[TriTails]

IDK if we should take logic into account when discussing weight value.

Marth weights less than effing Ness and Lucas.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Do you guys think has a chance of being really good someday? The latest patch made things harder for us and we don't get any fancy buffs beyond minor Leaf Shield buffs. It makes me depressed and not seeing Mega Man used that often makes me believe he's a bad character.

He's not a bad character. His high learning curve and middling power mean he's never going to be a regular tourney pick, but I do think he'll eventually see 1 or 2 really good players do work with him, because he does have a decent toolkit and an interesting playstyle.

 

[adom4]

IDK if we should take logic into account when discussing weight value.

Marth weights less than effing Ness and Lucas.

I think their heads alone weigh as much as Marth .

 

[FullMoon]

I think their heads alone weigh as much as Marth .

Plausible, considering Ness's Up-Air his head must be made of bricks

 

[Radical Larry]

Plausible, considering Ness's Up-Air his head must be made of bricks

No, Ganondorf's body is apparently made of quality bricks due to his weight, mobility and extreme power. Astonishingly that brick body has some decently fast attacks.

 

[bc1910]

Spoiler: :4mewtwo: weight compared to other legendaries

except.... is average bulk among legendaries. 106/90/90(286 overall) is pretty in the middle. overall, there's plenty of legendaries below him in defensive stats.
deoxys-normal(150 overall)
deoxys-attack(90 overall)
deoxys-speed(230 overall)
terrakion/keldeo(271 overall)
azelf(215 overall)
latios(270 overall)
tornadus(229 overall)
tornadus-therian(239 overall)
thundurus both formes(229 overall)
darkrai(250 overall)
meloetta-pirouette(267 overall)
raikou(265 overall)
entei(275 overall)
landorus both formes(259 overall)
zapdos(265 overall)
moltres(275 overall)
genesect(261 overall)
hoopa both formes(270)
shaymin sky(250)

thats 23 if we count mons with 2 formes as 2. there are 53 legendary pokemon(if we count mons w/ multiple forms that arent mega evolutions/primal reversions)

our cat is 24/53 on the legendary weight scale. that seems in the middle.

i'm fine with weights in smash(except for the pokemons overall).

but off of the topic of weight, oos. who has the best overall oos game? it seems like it could go to a variety of characters( etc.)

Not really a fair comparison. The only legendary in that list that matches Mewtwo's 680 BST is Hoopa Unbound. So he's the second most frail 680 BST legendary, and Hoopa Unbound is brand new, he was the most frail until now.

OT: I'm inclined to think Doc has one of the best OoS games with his deadly f3(!!!) Up B, a frame 6 grab and powerful Usmash, plus various useful aerials. Mario's is also really good, and Ness is up there too. And of course there's Diddy holding a banana...

 

[Routa]

It's between Doc and Charizard (most likely zard). Zard has that quick Usmash and invincible and meaty up b of death that kills at like 90. That's pretty hard to top.

Yeah. But he has 2 good OoS options compared to Doc's 3 (4?). Doc's Up-B is a lot faster than Charizards Fly (Doc's comes out on frames 3-5 while Charizards comes on 9-10). Ofc it kills later, but do to its speed it is a lot safer to throw out than fly. Also due to its shorter range it is harder to punish. Oh and Doc has his sex kick.

Overall I think the OoS king is Doc.

 

[meleebrawler]

No, Ganondorf's body is apparently made of quality bricks due to his weight, mobility and extreme power. Astonishingly that brick body has some decently fast attacks.

He's very obviously wearing heavy armour. You can almost hear the clanking. That plus muscles no doubt on par with or possibly even surpassing Falcon's or Ryu's makes him the heaviest human in Smash.

 

[⑨ball]

Plausible, considering Ness's Up-Air his head must be made of bricks

"THIS IS WHERE I KEEP MY PSYCHIC POWER."

Lord help us if Villager ever realizes bargain turnips might be inferior to his noggin.

 

[Nocally]

Official weight of all playable pokémon in smash: (used Bulbapedia.com as source)

12.1 lbs./ 5.5 kg - Jigglypuff
13.2 lbs / 6.0 kg -Pikachu
88.2 lbs./ 40.0 kg -Greninja
126.8 lbs./ 57.5 kg- Lucario
199.5 lbs./ 90.5 kg - Charizard
269.0 lbs./ 122.0 kg -Mewtwo

Would be cool if Mewtwo had an ability like Shulk, but instead of using a futuristic sword, Mewtwo uses his psychic powers to alter his stats, at least that would explain some of his stats in smash.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That makes sense, but it has literally nothing to do with smash. At no time did Tri Knight talk about street fighter.

In smash, the all rounders are never top tier.

Yes they are, in EVERY smash game lol.
Pikachu had no weakness in 64 besides weight, very rounded
In melee, sheik has needles for zoning and can rushdown
Brawl, MetaKnight was everything
Smash 4, sheik is nearly everything besides kill power and damage output, but whatever.
All-arounds are always ahead of everybody when they have everything

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit's recovery is not hard to harass either.

...

...Didn't I just get through saying that's wrong? I don't even mean, like, slightly wrong, I mean completely and utterly wrong. Pit would be one of the worst characters in the game if that were true. He would quite literally be worse then Lucina because now he's not really durable at all and his general power is just worse. His KOing ability would be even worse still because now he doesn't get much of anything out of rage.

Pit can be 100% reactionary to at least forty characters and still make it back to the ledge. Considering that two of those characters that can even get him some of the time are himself, it's not hard to see that Ryu can't do anything. Nope, not even the two frame window on the ledge grab.

Like I was saying about the arrows... Lost three frames of lag two real patches ago, and you shave off almost ten just by jumping with it. Even at mid rage they're effective because Pit can fly in place and shoot at you. Not many characters can get him out of the air, definitely not Ryu. It's pretty safe thanks to the wide variety of options Pit can do out of it.

With how good Pit's grabs are (standing grab is one of the fastest in the game, dash grab covers a lot of distance, pivot grab is slidey and hella disjointed) combined with his other options out of a dash (read: almost everything) getting grabs and thus F/Bthrows isn't an issue, so Ryu will have to be pretty careful or he's going to get gimped hard and early.

Y'all need to stop playing for Glory Pits.

 

[bc1910]

Sheik is everything but damage per hit. There is nothing wrong with her kill power.

Riskless 50/50s, guys.

 

[san.]

...

...Didn't I just get through saying that's wrong? I don't even mean, like, slightly wrong, I mean completely and utterly wrong. Pit would be one of the worst characters in the game if that were true. He would quite literally be worse then Lucina because now he's not really durable at all and his general power is just worse. His KOing ability would be even worse still because now he doesn't get much of anything out of rage.

Pit can be 100% reactionary to at least forty characters and still make it back to the ledge. Considering that two of those characters that can even get him some of the time are himself, it's not hard to see that Ryu can't do anything. Nope, not even the two frame window on the ledge grab.

Like I was saying about the arrows... Lost three frames of lag two real patches ago, and you shave off almost ten just by jumping with it. Even at mid rage they're effective because Pit can fly in place and shoot at you. Not many characters can get him out of the air, definitely not Ryu. It's pretty safe thanks to the wide variety of options Pit can do out of it.

With how good Pit's grabs are (standing grab is one of the fastest in the game, dash grab covers a lot of distance, pivot grab is slidey and hella disjointed) combined with his other options out of a dash (read: almost everything) getting grabs and thus F/Bthrows isn't an issue, so Ryu will have to be pretty careful or he's going to get gimped hard and early.

Y'all need to stop playing for Glory Pits.

Outside of Earth, Nairo, Kiraflax, and Pink Fresh, are there any Pit players that we should be keeping an eye out for?

 

[LancerStaff]

Outside of Earth, Nairo, Kiraflax, and Pink Fresh, are there any Pit players that we should be keeping an eye out for?

Technology's been doing well with Pit as a secondary, although he tends to use Pit a lot when he does use him. Haven't had a chance to see how Chompy's been doing since he got back to Pit...

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of other good Pits in Japan too, but they're hard to find and watch.

 

[Boney]

Sheik is everything but damage per hit. There is nothing wrong with her kill power.

Riskless 50/50s, guys.

Seriously. This myth that Shiek has trouble killing needs to die. You get bouncing fish setups that can ko incredible safe and early. 50/50 from grabs until you can just go for a fair ko. An insane up smash in stages like battlefield. Sure she can't ko at 40% like others (unless she gimps you, which she can easily) but she'll get you to 120% on a heart beat and then you're half dead from a grab.

And she just loses when trading in terms of damage department. She has the easiest time of all the cast in racking up damage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If Pit's going for the ledge could Ryu not just jump and Nair at the ledge repeatedly? Assuming Pit's burning his Up+B at some point (which is likely depending on his angle, the likeliest occurence is actually probably if he recovers from Ryu's Dair spike since he can do that with some meteors and I'd imagine Ryu's is one of them). I don't think he's very EASY to harass but I do think it's pretty possible even with Ryu (but only because Nair is dumb)

I still fail to see how he beats Ryu (it's probably even) because he doesn't have free ways to kill Ryu and he'll die in one mistake. SHAC Dair into FSmash would be a lot better if you couldn't tech meteors (thx Sakurai). Gimping Ryu is usually sufficient in the MU but he too has really silly recovery mixups (that are not solely limited to Focus Attack) and despite his airdodge being bleh, it's still pretty usable as far as recovery goes. I'd probably never FA offstage in this MU, would likely just Tatsu and then DJ since Tatsu is really good.

Arrows are irritating but they won't really box Ryu out for very long regardless of their endlag, not a lot of good characters can really easily camp Ryu in the traditional sense and even if they do it's inherently risky because if they mess up once there's a fairly large chance they could lose their percent lead (or just a stock)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sheik is everything but damage per hit. There is nothing wrong with her kill power.

Riskless 50/50s, guys.

kill power =/= kill setups imo.

 

[Amadeus9]

kill power =/= kill setups imo.

Kill setups > Kill power

 

[Radical Larry]

If Sheik used any of her aerials except for F-Air, it wouldn't be as safe as using F-Air because her hitboxes are more extended, they come out later and they have more landing lag than F-Air. But nonetheless if an opponent shields on Sheik's F-Air correctly, they should grab Sheik the moment the hit lands on shield so as to be able to grab her while she's still in mid-air. Sheik's not an unpunishable character by far, all of her aerials can be punished, but it takes timing and a long or fast grab depending if she rushes in or not with her attacks. Since her aerials (bar U-Air and D-Air) are attacks that will lose their hitbox the second they connect to the shield, one must make the optimum choice to use a fast attack, OoS option or grab, because Sheik still needs to land with her aerials.

She might be a good damage racking character, but she is still punishable; not as easy as other characters, but still punishable.

 

[bc1910]

kill power =/= kill setups imo.

Sheik doesn't need kill power because her kill setups are so good. Kill setups are more important.

If you want to get technical about it then sure, she doesn't have good raw kill power. But it doesn't hurt her in the slightest so it's barely worth mentioning.

 

[Xandercosm]

No, Ganondorf's body is apparently made of quality bricks due to his weight, mobility and extreme power. Astonishingly that brick body has some decently fast attacks.

I think one day a giant boulder decided to assemble itself into the shape of a man and so Ganondorf was born.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Kill setups > Kill power

not arguing against it

 

[RonNewcomb]

I'd probably never FA offstage in this MU, would likely just Tatsu and then DJ since Tatsu is really good.

Can't Pit just reflect Tatsu? Reflect is armored...

I can see Pit > Ryu, but it's a case of Perfect Play Required or else Mr. Big Punch takes it. In what ways can Ryu force a mistake outside his own tilt range?

 

[Radical Larry]

I think one day a giant boulder decided to assemble itself into the shape of a man and so Ganondorf was born.

A man who's F-Air sounds like he's tearing through the opponent like a piece of paper. No really, that's what Ganondorf's F-Air sounds like and it kind of works that way too.

 

[Greward]

Outside of Earth, Nairo, Kiraflax, and Pink Fresh, are there any Pit players that we should be keeping an eye out for?

Pit is pretty popular in Europe, we have some good players with him.
Pretty much every country has a good Pit main. I don't really know nicks lol but I've seen Pit play from Germany / France / Spain / UK at high rounds.

 

[|RK|]

Sheik doesn't need kill power because her kill setups are so good. Kill setups are more important.

If you want to get technical about it then sure, she doesn't have good raw kill power. But it doesn't hurt her in the slightest so it's barely worth mentioning.

I said it already, but Big House proved that it hurts her. Not enough to make her anything but #1, but at the very top level of play, it looks like struggles.

Vinnie commented on Twitter how annoying ZeRo and Anti are at avoiding the kill setups. Granted, there are only a couple people at that level, clearly. But we theorycraft for the very top level play.

 

[Djent]

Outside of Earth, Nairo, Kiraflax, and Pink Fresh, are there any Pit players that we should be keeping an eye out for?

Paseriman (also from Japan) has a pretty good Pit. His most notable accomplishment is an (unrecorded) win over Choco in pools. Sadly, this is a recurring problem with his sets - few are recorded.

 

[LancerStaff]

If Pit's going for the ledge could Ryu not just jump and Nair at the ledge repeatedly? Assuming Pit's burning his Up+B at some point (which is likely depending on his angle, the likeliest occurence is actually probably if he recovers from Ryu's Dair spike since he can do that with some meteors and I'd imagine Ryu's is one of them). I don't think he's very EASY to harass but I do think it's pretty possible even with Ryu (but only because Nair is dumb)

I still fail to see how he beats Ryu (it's probably even) because he doesn't have free ways to kill Ryu and he'll die in one mistake. SHAC Dair into FSmash would be a lot better if you couldn't tech meteors (thx Sakurai). Gimping Ryu is usually sufficient in the MU but he too has really silly recovery mixups (that are not solely limited to Focus Attack) and despite his airdodge being bleh, it's still pretty usable as far as recovery goes. I'd probably never FA offstage in this MU, would likely just Tatsu and then DJ since Tatsu is really good.

Arrows are irritating but they won't really box Ryu out for very long regardless of their endlag, not a lot of good characters can really easily camp Ryu in the traditional sense and even if they do it's inherently risky because if they mess up once there's a fairly large chance they could lose their percent lead (or just a stock)

Unless Ryu wants to get turned into a pin cushion he's not going to get into a position where he can't shield. Pit has full control of arrows offstage, plus the reduced endlag. Even without arrows I'd just trump him. If he does nothing (standing on the ledge basically) then I just Uspecial. The ledge snap makes it easy to avoid anything Ryu can throw out.

Again, Pit would be trash without his recovery being one of the best in the game. Ryu either has to be incredibly lucky or the Pit got himself into that situation by being stupid... Not "bad at the matchup" stupid, but "bad at the character" stupid.

Pit's only two points lighter then Mario. He can afford to make a few mistakes.

I can see it being even, but I'm more inclined for it to be in Pit's favor. Especially if everybody's vision of the "even" matchup features a gimpable Pit.

Can't Pit just reflect Tatsu? Reflect is armored...

I can see Pit > Ryu, but it's a case of Perfect Play Required or else Mr. Big Punch takes it. In what ways can Ryu force a mistake outside his own tilt range?

Guardian Orbitars don't have super armor, it's a special effect that registers Pit as "hit" by the attack without being damaged. Doesn't reflect people either, just shoves them with windboxes.

Impact Orbitars have super armor though, as did his old Mirror Shield Dspecial in conjunction with the other mechanic. In the data though Guardians call for SA but don't specify a frame. Pretty sure it's the only attack that does.

Paseriman (also from Japan) has a pretty good Pit. His most notable accomplishment is an (unrecorded) win over Choco in pools. Sadly, this is a recurring problem with his sets - few are recorded.

Right, I heard about him (her?) the other day. Like you said, it's hard to fid his sets. And then when you do find them they're always compressed because of Nikoniko.

 

[Ikes]

after the patch there are STILL people calling Ryu "arguably upper mid tier if not mid"

like what