Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nabbitnator]

IDK how a character with a 65:35 against the best and most common character in the game can be considered top tier.

You can still have a poor match up at the top while doing really well against others. Now if you have multiple poor and questionable match ups then i dont think a character can be considered top tier.

 

[Nobie]

But that's the thing is that Mega Man's pellets used to not remove shield lock. Single pellets were really really good.

Powershielded pellets are better (as powershielding got nerfed) but powershielded pellets were never an issue for Mega. Pellets on a late shield (which would be if you used 2 or 3 pellets on shield) are buffed by a couple frames, which is big. Shield drop>utilt is better than it has been on early shields, which means going for powershield>utilt all the time is the goal, but powershield>utilt is nerfed and shield drop>utilt on late shield is also nerfed (vs multi-hits).

MB is significantly worse, as it was good at abusing shield lock frames (you run in to grab and they can't shield drop>jab. Now they can.) and Fsmash is tons less safe even at full charge.

It's a complex patch. I still think he lost more than he gained, but it might be that I actively abused shield lock frames.

Edit: Oh, also any gain in shield stun is also lessened by a loss in hitlag. Forgot that big part about pellets. The loss in hitlag is why fsmash is stupidly unsafe.

Edit 2: Also, I think the shield stun is now based on base damage and not damage after freshness/staling (found by Shaya in a thread I'm too lazy to link).

Can I just say that extra shield stun in 8 player smash free for all is really really dumb? Especially with equipment. (Competitively, this applies to the doubles format and triples/vip and 4v4.)

Pellets alone are 1.0x hitlag right? They're just affected by the overlap between shield lock and shield stun.

Looking at Shaya's theory list above, one big change for Mega Man that I think is going to be a super big deal is that he has high aerial mobility AND his aerials are safer on shield now by a significant margin. As a Mega Man player I know you know the pain of taking a risk on shorthop fair or bair in the hopes that you catch the opponent off-guard, only to get it shielded and punished. Just being that much more capable of avoiding retaliation through proper spacing is huge, and as Mega Man players are generally familiar with the idea of good spacing it's going to matter a lot, I think.

A fun mixup used to be f-tilt one pellet and grab, as you can often grab just as you reach the opponent, but now that's probably less possible I assume.

 

[Balgorxz]

after testing in the lab every character and their new pressure tools, I might as well predict the tier list in the future
Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Competitive Tier 2.5:
Viable Tier 1:
Okay Tier:
;_; :
Terrible Matchups Bros:
No idea thanks to the new mechanics:

 

[|RK|]

Watching Dat BlastZone as I wait for Big House - if you get hit by the first part of Browser's Down B while in shield, it's a guaranteed shield break?

EDIT: misworded

 

[Wintropy]

after testing in the lab every character and their new pressure tools, I might as well predict the tier list in the future
Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Competitive Tier 2.5:
Viable Tier 1:
Okay Tier:
;_; :
Terrible Matchups Bros:
No idea thanks to the new mechanics:

Makes sense for the most part, but nothing changed with Dark Pit to justify that kind of difference between himself and Pit.

Except for n-air and f-air maybe being safer and shield and ZSS possibly being an easier matchup / Pikachu being a more difficult matchup, nothing substantial changed for the Pits.

Watching Dat BlastZone as I wait for Big House - if you get hit by the entirety of Browser's Down B while in shield, it's a guaranteed shield break?

Wasn't that always the case?

I've been on the receiving end of it many times, one of which even cost me a tournament.

 

[HeavyLobster]

after testing in the lab every character and their new pressure tools, I might as well predict the tier list in the future
Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Competitive Tier 2.5:
Viable Tier 1:
Okay Tier:
;_; :
Terrible Matchups Bros:
No idea thanks to the new mechanics:

Could you explain Link? What happened to give him particularly bad MUs? Everything else seems plausible, though I'd probably rate Lucas higher.

 

[LancerStaff]

after testing in the lab every character and their new pressure tools, I might as well predict the tier list in the future
Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Competitive Tier 2.5:
Viable Tier 1:
Okay Tier:
;_; :
Terrible Matchups Bros:
No idea thanks to the new mechanics:

*ragle bragle rant about how Pit and Dark Pit should share a tier slot*

 

[ILOVESMASH]

after testing in the lab every character and their new pressure tools, I might as well predict the tier list in the future
Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Competitive Tier 2.5:
Viable Tier 1:
Okay Tier:
;_; :
Terrible Matchups Bros:
No idea thanks to the new mechanics:

Apart from shulk being too high and link being too low, this looks alright. I think you might be underrating little mac as well.

 

[Nu~]

after testing in the lab every character and their new pressure tools, I might as well predict the tier list in the future
Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Competitive Tier 2.5:
Viable Tier 1:
Okay Tier:
;_; :
Terrible Matchups Bros:
No idea thanks to the new mechanics:

Tell me why Kirby isn't worse off after the patch

 

[|RK|]

Wasn't that always the case?

I've been on the receiving end of it many times, one of which even cost me a tournament.

Sorry, I messed up the wording of my question. I meant if the first part hits you in shield, are you unable to escape the second part?

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'm not particularly confident about Wario that much anymore, but I personally don't see how half of the tier 2 characters there are better than him.

Though to be fair, I don't know where to place him either. I don't think this patch hurts him at all though, it's actually mostly the..same for him?

 

[Nu~]

So meta knight really is DA -> death isn't he?

Yeah, abadango is dropping pacman. He doesn't even use the character in his favorable matchups anymore.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So my Ryu buddy has been labbing Ryu hard with his sparring partner and apparently Collarbone Breaker is now a true block string. You cannot roll out of it after the first hit connects on shield now.

Thoughts?

 

[warionumbah2]

He already used pacman and beat triple r convincingly, probably went mk to see if he does better in the MU + meta knight vs kirby fanservice.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So my Ryu buddy has been labbing Ryu hard with his sparring partner and apparently Collarbone Breaker is now a true block string. You cannot roll out of it after the first hit connects on shield now.

Thoughts?

Absolutely amazing. It does its job perfectly now and means if you catch someone without max shield health and in kill % range that's a free stock for Ryu.

He was already Top 15 but he's improved so much this patch as he was never reliant on shield at all and now he's a lot less scared to hit it (even if he wasn't super worried about it before).

It's insane.

 

[TTTTTsd]

after testing in the lab every character and their new pressure tools, I might as well predict the tier list in the future
Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Competitive Tier 2.5:
Viable Tier 1:
Okay Tier:
;_; :
Terrible Matchups Bros:
No idea thanks to the new mechanics:

Wouldn't put Doc below Bowser or Mewtwo personally. I feel like he barely lost anything from this patch (only minor gains to his multihit shield pressure and stuff). Up+B OoS as an option is still incredible post-patch it seems, and all of his attributes that made him okay are still here. I think he's part of the "okay" area, personally.

 

[Locke 06]

Pellets alone are 1.0x hitlag right? They're just affected by the overlap between shield lock and shield stun.

Looking at Shaya's theory list above, one big change for Mega Man that I think is going to be a super big deal is that he has high aerial mobility AND his aerials are safer on shield now by a significant margin. As a Mega Man player I know you know the pain of taking a risk on shorthop fair or bair in the hopes that you catch the opponent off-guard, only to get it shielded and punished. Just being that much more capable of avoiding retaliation through proper spacing is huge, and as Mega Man players are generally familiar with the idea of good spacing it's going to matter a lot, I think.

A fun mixup used to be f-tilt one pellet and grab, as you can often grab just as you reach the opponent, but now that's probably less possible I assume.

Spoiler: Mega Man hitlag modifiers thanks to Thankaman

These are also in Indigo Jeans' hitbox data directory, but Thinkaman's list was easier to copy.
Mega Man uair (0.2x)
Mega Man f-smash (0.3x)
Mega Man Crash Bomber explosion (0.3x)
Mega Man side-b #3 initial hit (0.7x)
Mega Man Leaf Shield #1/3 shield hits (0.5x)
Mega Man Leaf Shield #1/2/3 thrown hit (0.3x)
Mega Man Tornado Hold (0.8x/0.3x)

And, something Thinkaman did not list, is that mid-range pellets have a 0.75x hitlag multiplier. I admittedly don't know the exact distances, but the first 3 frames of pellets are a 1x modifier, next 3 frames of pellets is a 0.75x modifier, and last 2 frames are a 1x modifier. As a 2% move, hitlag went from 5(.77) to 4(.32) for mid-range pellets. (hitlag equation I have is "((d/2.6+5)*h*e" where d is damage pre-staling, h is hitlag modifier, and e is either 1 or 1.5 whether the move is electric)

Usmash also has a 0.0x modifier, which explains why it no longer holds you in shield and is generally just worse on shield as the Mega Man boards have found. The idea that his aerials are significantly safer on shield is kind of suspect to me. They're for sure safer point blank without spacing (you'll get hit by strong OoS stuff less), but it might come out as a wash for spacing them/cross ups (FAir/BAir) since shield dropping is buffed.

I planned on doing some sort of more thorough analysis on what it actually means for pellets (how much is gained with shieldstun and how much is lost with hitlag), but got lazy/tired of analyzing this patch and just wanted to play.

Spoiler: impression about the change after studying it a lot

I'm being rewarded less for spacing and being punished less hard for mindlessly hitting your shield point blank. This is clearly a buff for mid-level players, but people who learned how to play around OoS options got their options weakened slightly. While I dislike that what I put work into is nerfed, I think Shaya's right in that the shield stun/shield lock change is possibly genius design; the skill floor for being offensive in Smash 4 has been lowered and top tiers got nerfed slightly. The gap between OoS options and natural shield drop options has decreased, which is something most top tiers had (SH FAir for Sheik, Boost kick for ZSS... although she has godly natural shield drop options) and something low tiers didn't (heavies minus Bowser). I want to say that the Smash 4 team wanted the game to develop around conservation of shield lock frames, but it never did because very few people really understood the mechanic. So they said, "nope" and made it a little bit more consistent so that the metagame can develop around "X is -5 on shield drop and is always -3 on shield" instead of "X is between -7 and +0 on shield drop depending on shield lock frames." The hitlag change is very significant and is consistent with making moves consistent (hitlag on shield matches hitlag on hit), but this makes electric attacks (Pikachu) and high hitlag modifiers so much safer than they used to be and low hitlag modifiers so much less safe. Consistency makes things easier to lab, which is why you see new people trying to lab "Oh, this is -3 on shield. If I use my f4 jab, it beats anyone who has worse than a f7 OoS option."

The take away is that there's a lot going on in this patch that balance each other out and Smash 4 is different for sure. I think the game will develop faster, but whether it's better or worse... whatever. Just play the game.

 

[SuqAta8]

after testing in the lab every character and their new pressure tools, I might as well predict the tier list in the future
Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Competitive Tier 2.5:
Viable Tier 1:
Okay Tier:
;_; :
Terrible Matchups Bros:
No idea thanks to the new mechanics:

why such a large gap between toon link and link, with link in the terrible tier?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So my Ryu buddy has been labbing Ryu hard with his sparring partner and apparently Collarbone Breaker is now a true block string. You cannot roll out of it after the first hit connects on shield now.

Thoughts?

It's also a true block string if the first hit of it is power-shielded. It just means that there will be no shield damage for the first hit.

 

[LancerStaff]

So my Ryu buddy has been labbing Ryu hard with his sparring partner and apparently Collarbone Breaker is now a true block string. You cannot roll out of it after the first hit connects on shield now.

Thoughts?

Kinda late there... Thought that was one of the first things found with the shield changes.

 

[C0rvus]

So my Ryu buddy has been labbing Ryu hard with his sparring partner and apparently Collarbone Breaker is now a true block string. You cannot roll out of it after the first hit connects on shield now.

Thoughts?

Ryu is even scarier now. Might move him up from a for fun character to a serious main. Ryu looks very, very potent in this new meta.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, San apparently made it through his pool, beat mjg and manny

We gonna have 3 Ikes in Top 3 boys.

To add to this:

All 3 confirmed to be on winners side of the Top 32.

We.

Like.

Ike.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Too bad people will still deny Ike's viability.

 

[Blobface]

I don't think anyone could deny Ike's viability at this point.

 

[hypersonicJD]

6WX still thinks Sonic is Top 3. And... Maybe he is right. We just saw how Sheik lost to Sonic in a 2-0 match and it was the best Sheik in the world. I do think Sonic can be Top 5 with the newest patch.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Too bad people will still deny Ike's viability.

Who is this "people" you are talking about?

I haven't really seen him in this thread so far.

 

[Nu~]

6WX still thinks Sonic is Top 3. And... Maybe he is right. We just saw how Sheik lost to Sonic in a 2-0 match and it was the best Sheik in the world. I do think Sonic can be Top 5 with the newest patch.

Don't take it out of context.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Yeah. But that was actually a post after he said Sonic was top 3. But anyways. I'm just so damn overhyped by Seagull's win. It was insane. And now I understand why Big Bouse was so overhyped. This is truly an amazing tourney. History has been made. And we even haven't got the Smash Ballot results. Even more hype :O

Speaking of Ike. I think Japan has to understand that Ike isn't bottom tier anymore. Maybe not even Middle Tier. He is possibly a High Tier right now.

 

[HFlash]

6WX thinks Sonic is top 3? ESAM thinks Pika is top 2. Where's the big surprise?

 

[Sir Tundra]

Edit: nvm zero's still in the tournament

6WX thinks Sonic is top 3? ESAM thinks Pika is top 2. Where's the big surprise?

If you ask me I think there's a bit of bias between both 6WX and ESAM's claims.

But who knows.

Pikachu being top 5 seems alot more believable now thanks to the shieldstun increase and the luigi nerf.

But top 2 seems debatable

Sonic though? Sure seagull's sonic won against zero sheik I'm not sure if that really makes sonic top 5 let alone top 3.

I mean maybe seagull got into a trip to the hyperbolic time chamber or zero has lost his game and got outplayed hard sending him to the pits known as losers brackets.

Either way this shouldn't automatically make sonic top 5 or top 3.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If you ask me I think there's a bit of bias between both 6WX and ESAM's claims.

But who knows.

Pikachu being top 5 seems alot more believable now thanks to the shieldstun increase and the luigi nerf.

But top 2 seems debatable

Sonic though? Sure seagull's sonic won against zero sheik I'm not sure if that really makes sonic top 5 let alone top 3.

Sonic has done more than Pikachu over this game's lifespan so far and it can't be simply attributed to a single player.

It's all up in the air now with the new patch out. But in 1.1.0 Sonic was a better character than Pikachu and he may very well have been the #3 character in that meta all along.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Sonic has done more than Pikachu over this game's lifespan so far and it can't be simply attributed to a single player.

It's all up in the air now with the new patch out. But in 1.1.0 Sonic was a better character than Pikachu and he may very well have been the #3 character in that meta all along.

I was referring to the recent patch.

I actually forgot that bighouse was going to use 1.1.0. instead of the newest patch.

I agree with you with sonic being then pikachu in the majority of the game's lifespan since pikachu didn't really had much going for him besides the esam hype train. I'm unsure if sonic might have #3 all along in the states(not saying I disagree though). I mean japan saw him as top 3 and still does but that's just because of the fact that japan has a different meta. Yet in the U.S it's unclear if he was or if he wasn't top 3 or not in 1.1.0.

edit: Megafox vs Ryo is up LET'S GO!!!

 

[-RedX-]

Love how Ike continues to **** on Sonic.

Looking at the general consensus of top tiers, I really only think Ike loses to Sheik, Fox, and probably ZSS. The others are manageable.
Post-patch is a different story though. Need more data/footage.

 

[Djent]

Man, the weekend I actually decide to have a social life I miss Zero losing...

Anyway, I think Ike is potentially in a very good position for 1.1.1, since we know that at least Pika, Sonic, and Fox are doable, and there should be less Sheik-blocking in general. Luigi (who probably beat him previously based off of reward disparity) probably loses now. Huge safe aerials on low-traction shield = sad plumber. I'm very interested to see Ryuga vs. Dabuz at this point because I'm not sure how to call that MU.

 

[ReroRero]

So much Ike in top 32 and we are not even in patch 1.1.1.

Can't wait to see how much shield nerf will affect him

 

[Megamang]

Dair thru a platform makes ike one of the scarrier characters to juggle.... since it totally reverses the situation and ike can kill you with a lingering uair OR ccharge a smash on your dodge.


Also, everyone keeps saying that people are sleeping on Ike... everyone ive talked to knows he is terrifying now; I've yet to meet a single person who underestimates him. Hopefully Japan sees BH5, because while he is strong now, another round of buffs would be insanity.

 

[wedl!!]

If Japan ignores BH5 and Ike gets buffed again I'm selling my Wii U.

 

[Djent]

Honestly, at this rate?

Patch 1.1.2 Notes
-Removed Ike from the game
+Replaced Ike with Ike Climbers
Gotta make the most of those new character slots. GLHF

 

[Blobface]

Honestly, at this rate?

Patch 1.1.2 Notes
-Removed Ike from the game
+Replaced Ike with Ike Climbers
Gotta make the most of those new character slots. GLHF

At this rate of buffs they're going to straight up make Ike a double character a la Ice climbers. Two Ike's: the Ike Climbers.

Edit: wow I can't read.

 

[Teshie U]

Sonic
Ike
Sheik
Fox

Rosa
Ike
Pika
Ryu

ZSS
Mario
Sonic
Fox

Mario
Rosa
Mario/Sheik (who does Anti use?)
Ike

Winners right now.

Ike is looking pretty viable. His buffed frame data + his range, combos and power. Why is anyone still doubting this character?