Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Mario766]

Wait, what are the new shield drop rules?

Are you talking about shield lock? I thought for every attack regardless of damage, shield lock now overlaps shield stun?

I swear I'm learning so much today.

What I've heard is that if an attack does I believe more than 10.5 percent shield lock goes after shield stun, but if it does less than it does not.

 

[bc1910]

What I've heard is that if an attack does I believe more than 10.5 percent shield lock goes after shield stun, but if it does less than it does not.

I think that's wrong.

According to Shaya's new thread, if an attack does 10.5% or more then shield lock is ignored completely because of the new overlap. So some of those Ike numbers you have might be wrong (7 frames worse in some cases).

 

[Mario766]

I think that's wrong.

According to Shaya's new thread, if an attack does 10.5% or more then shield lock is ignored completely because of the new overlap. So some of those Ike numbers you have might be wrong (7 frames worse in some cases).

That's the theory, if so then F-Air and B-Air go to -5 and U-Air go to -6. D-Air goes to -12 but Ike never uses D-Air in neutral so that doesn't matter. Those are still really good numbers for a character with such a strong disjoint.

 

[Nu~]

So is this: https://trinket.io/python/35c2ec074b?toggleCode=true

Still valid?

 

[Thinkaman]

So is this: https://trinket.io/python/35c2ec074b?toggleCode=true

Still valid?

It should be X/1.75 + 2; that's wrong.

 

[Radical Larry]

I would argue Link is better than Toon Link in every way except mobility + bombs.

And mobility + bombs are good enough to make Toon Link a better pick than Link overall.

Bombs are not good with Toon Link. His range of throwing bombs are just as bad as Peach's Turnip range. Link on the other hand has more range and power to his Bombs, and even more combo and kill confirm capability.

Toon Link just has the better ground mobility and air mobility (though his air mobility is not by much).

 

[PUK]

But you don't want range on a item tossed lol that's why turnips are so good

 

[Nobie]

This is an odd question, but did Little Mac's KO punch at some point become more difficult to get rid of?

I could swear that you used to be able to kill the KO punch's full meter pretty easily but more recently I've felt that it's been harder to actually knock him out of it. Like, it used to take only one hit but now it sometimes takes as many as 2 or 3.

 

[Zelder]

I think it's the first tumble hit (that is, hit that makes Little Mac tumble) after five seconds. I don't believe it's changed recently.

 

[wedl!!]

I don't know why range would matter on a thrown item. You'd want them to be good at midrange to begin with, that's why they're worth their salt in combos.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Bombs are not good with Toon Link. His range of throwing bombs are just as bad as Peach's Turnip range. Link on the other hand has more range and power to his Bombs, and even more combo and kill confirm capability.

Toon Link just has the better ground mobility and air mobility (though his air mobility is not by much).

Toon Link actually benefits from shorter throwing distance because it means there's less distance for him to close at optimal bomb range (hitting only the explosion and not directly making contact with the bomb). That said, longer throwing range on adult Link makes his bombs contribute more to his ranged kit, since item tossing is still the fastest ranged attack out there and so he's able to apply greater projectile pressure.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Sooo... This happened...

What is happening with this patch? Or was it the Luma type of glitch? Bowser charging a Smash attack and Luma killing him easily.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So yall know Greninja is top tier now right?

 

[Smog Frog]

no, enlighten us

 

[Routa]

Sooo... This happened...

What is happening with this patch? Or was it the Luma type of glitch? Bowser charging a Smash attack and Luma killing him easily.

Could be possibly that, but I doubt it.

 

[Firefoxx]

Sooo... This happened...

What is happening with this patch? Or was it the Luma type of glitch? Bowser charging a Smash attack and Luma killing him easily.

Thats not a bug, per say. Mewtwo if very light and was charging a smash and the first hit of Aether has high base knockback. add in a little rage and you get this

 

[Nobie]

The Rise and Fall and Rise of Greninja, a Story of Perseverence (and Balance Patches) by AmSa Q. Amserson.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Sooo... This happened...

What is happening with this patch? Or was it the Luma type of glitch? Bowser charging a Smash attack and Luma killing him easily.

Bad DI, Mewtwo being light af, Ike being strong af, set knockback, rage, and charging smash = increased knockback taken. Not a glitch but it's jank, no doubt.

 

[Sir Tundra]

So yall know Greninja is top tier now right?

Greninja top tier?

This is news to me.

You care to explain this

 

[Damandatwin]

Sooo... This happened...

What is happening with this patch? Or was it the Luma type of glitch? Bowser charging a Smash attack and Luma killing him easily.

Same as the bowser thing. Aether has high BKB and mewtwo is light and was charging a smash attack.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

-sigh-

1) Already known

2) Already posted in this thread before in a different video

3) Has been posted on the Ike boards multiple times before

Usual "moves with set knockbacks can do weird things with high rage and if you're charging a smash attack" situation.

DI had nothing to do with it though. Under those situations its pretty much an instakill. Don't charge a smash attack if Ike is in rage. Ever.

 

[Nobie]

There's an ironic buff vs. some multi-hitting moves that happened in this patch.

It used to be that sometimes when shielding against a multi-hit attack that you would let go of shield early by accident and eat the rest of the attack. This was especially a problem online where timing can be thrown off by input delay.

Now, however, some multi-hit attacks keep you in shieldstun for so long that you CAN'T accidentally unshield. It happened to me when shielding a Wario Down Air.

Keep in mind that not all multi-hit moves are affected by this, however.

 

[FullMoon]

So yall know Greninja is top tier now right?

Not while Sheik exists.

 

[wedl!!]

IDK how a character with a 65:35 against the best and most common character in the game can be considered top tier.

 

[Crudele]

Not just shiek, pikachu and fox are pretty big problems too. So, how'd we jump up a few tiers?

 

[FullMoon]

Pikachu is up in the air, I personally feel the MU is even. Added safety on N-Air and F-Air is going to help a lot against him now and since our OoS options were poor to begin with Pikachu having added safety on his electric attacks is not much of a problem.

I see Pikachu as being 55:45 at worst. He's nowhere close to be as bad as Sheik.

Though Sonic probably got worse for us too, now that I think about it.

 

[Radical Larry]

PUK and wedl!! An item's toss range comes in two forms used most commonly: Light (Jab) Throws and Smash Throws. Let's take these two here, and look at Link. Link can use his light throw and throw it at the range of Peach's Turnips and TL's Bombs, which in itself gives Link the same good opportunity. Now let's use Smash Throws, which make Link far superior since he can cover an extreme amount of distance with the Bomb. So Link can be a close range to high-mid range user with his item-type projectile, Bomb, so he's just in league with the distance of Toon Link and Peach with their Smash Throws.

That being said...

Toon Link actually benefits from shorter throwing distance because it means there's less distance for him to close at optimal bomb range (hitting only the explosion and not directly making contact with the bomb). That said, longer throwing range on adult Link makes his bombs contribute more to his ranged kit, since item tossing is still the fastest ranged attack out there and so he's able to apply greater projectile pressure.

I agree, Link's better range with Bombs allow for greater projectile pressure, too.

But to you three, though, which item projectile is guaranteed to really stay for a period of time after SH Z-Dropping? That would be Link's, because Peach's might end up disappearing and Toon Link's SH Z-Drop Bombs explode, so Toon Link needs to be closer to the ground for them not to. To add to this, since Link can Z-Drop his Bombs without them instantly exploding, Link has a far better defensive tool, since his Bombs beat out most projectiles coming at him, even (like I've said in the past) fully charged Charge Shots (Samus), Aura Spheres and Shadow Balls.

Toon Link, on the other hand, needs to actually throw his Bombs, and Peach can't beat them with her Veggies. Plus, with Link having a more efficient SH Z-Drop than both characters, Link can also grab a Bomb once more from the ground and throw it at an opponent for such a huge mind game.

And yes, this can be used practically, and no, I am not kidding you.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

PUK and wedl!! An item's toss range comes in two forms used most commonly: Light (Jab) Throws and Smash Throws. Let's take these two here, and look at Link. Link can use his light throw and throw it at the range of Peach's Turnips and TL's Bombs, which in itself gives Link the same good opportunity. Now let's use Smash Throws, which make Link far superior since he can cover an extreme amount of distance with the Bomb. So Link can be a close range to high-mid range user with his item-type projectile, Bomb, so he's just in league with the distance of Toon Link and Peach with their Smash Throws.

That being said...



I agree, Link's better range with Bombs allow for greater projectile pressure, too.

But to you three, though, which item projectile is guaranteed to really stay for a period of time after SH Z-Dropping? That would be Link's, because Peach's might end up disappearing and Toon Link's SH Z-Drop Bombs explode, so Toon Link needs to be closer to the ground for them not to. To add to this, since Link can Z-Drop his Bombs without them instantly exploding, Link has a far better defensive tool, since his Bombs beat out most projectiles coming at him, even (like I've said in the past) fully charged Charge Shots (Samus), Aura Spheres and Shadow Balls.

Toon Link, on the other hand, needs to actually throw his Bombs, and Peach can't beat them with her Veggies. Plus, with Link having a more efficient SH Z-Drop than both characters, Link can also grab a Bomb once more from the ground and throw it at an opponent for such a huge mind game.

And yes, this can be used practically, and no, I am not kidding you.

Yeah, I know Link's bombs are effective as a trap. That said, Toon Link having an item smash throw equal to Link's normal throw also means his normal throw is even shorter, which can be a good thing. Now, I personally like longer-range bombs for the ranged pressure applications, but Toon Link's bombs can be used effectively against closer foes than Link's can and that's definitely a plus for Toon Link.

 

[Radiant Hero]

In regards to Thinkaman's tier list, I'm a bit confused as to why Ike is placed so low. I won't try to pretend that I know all his frame data and how it clashes with others, but last patch most everyone put him in high-mid or even low-high, beating out the other FE characters (though some argued Roy was better).

Now, not only is he beneath the other FE characters, but he's also in the bottom 15? People on the Ike boards seem to think the shield changes and such benefit Ike, and even if they actually hinder him, would it really be by such a huge margin compared to the others?

 

[Planty]

Adding on to critiques in Thinkaman's tier list, why is Rosalina in top 3? Pre-patch she was being moved out of top 5 in favor of other characters. It seems like Rosalina mains can't figure out if the shield changes are buffs or nerfs, due to her complex nature. I personally feel like the changes don't benefit her as much as they harm her, and that's KIND OF what is getting agreed on by most Rosa mains, but again nobody knows how this patch is affecting her. I've also heard that Dabuz might just find a new main, which is most likely a knee-jerk reaction, but it's worth mentioning. On top of that, if we look purely at her matchup spread, she's not even a top 10 character. So why is she put in top 3?

 

[bc1910]

Pika is fine. Fox and Sheik just got better since we can actually hit their shields while they don't butcher ours any harder than they did before.

So yall know Greninja is top tier now right?

ik, he's really ****ing good isn't he

I can't even put my finger on why. But I've been playing him all day and I feel like I'm using a different character. I'm sure it's down to safety on Nair and Fair.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Adding on to critiques in Thinkaman's tier list, why is Rosalina in top 3? Pre-patch she was being moved out of top 5 in favor of other characters. It seems like Rosalina mains can't figure out if the shield changes are buffs or nerfs, due to her complex nature. I personally feel like the changes don't benefit her as much as they harm her, and that's KIND OF what is getting agreed on by most Rosa mains, but again nobody knows how this patch is affecting her. I've also heard that Dabuz might just find a new main, which is most likely a knee-jerk reaction, but it's worth mentioning. On top of that, if we look purely at her matchup spread, she's not even a top 10 character. So why is she put in top 3?

It's mostly because Luma's really freaking weird and I've heard conflicting information about whether it benefits from the shield changes or not. If it does, then I think Rosalina will stay in place at worst and rise at best. If it doesn't, then the opposite would be true and she could fall a bit.

That said, I think the sheer obnoxiousness of Luma will prevent her from ever being low tier, as long as they don't gut her numbers to insane levels.

 

[Apeirohaon]

So is this: https://trinket.io/python/35c2ec074b?toggleCode=true

Still valid?

It should be X/1.75 + 2; that's wrong.

is this correct? I'm still not 100% sure on the shield lock stuff...
https://trinket.io/python/e7f3bde847?toggleCode=true

anyway if that's wrong then just use this:
https://trinket.io/python/e874995f02?toggleCode=true

 

[DanGR]

Initial analysis of Rosalina's new frame data suggests she's ~3 frames less safe on block to shielddrop options if the opponent just misses the powershield window. She's roughly ~4 frames safer against natural OoS options. It varies with the attack slightly, but all of luma's attacks have lowish damage, so the calculations shouldn't be too different.

This is a big nerf to Rosalina's spacing game, considering good spacing usually forces the opponent to drop shield to punish regardless, as natural OoS options weren't a huge factor to begin with (except against jab2).

 

[NairWizard]

On , the patch may be a bigger buff to him than people realize. Obviously, it's early, so theorycraft abounds, but most of it is based on a ton of Pikachu experience.

Pikachu's biggest strength as a character (something I feel that Shaya repeatedly underrated, even though I agreed with his general perception of prepatch Pikachu as "not that good") has always been mixups and the ability to have options in every situation, including disadvantaged situations. None of Pikachu's tools by themselves have ever been OP (bar Quick Attack), but the entire kit collectively was great, offering as many options as Sheik's kit, or in some cases even more. Pikachu could always do things, and you could never guess what he was going to do, so he could constantly just hit you from unexpected angles. (I'm guessing Shaya's swordsman spacing/reaction mentality made this seem less generally workable as a game plan). Even in disadvantage, a state where most characters have maybe 1 or 2 options at most, Pikachu could QA, n-air, falling up-air, falling f-air, b-air, d-air... just so many different options. Even his spotdodge/roll/airdodge were among the best in the game (only Mewtwo could act faster out of airdodge).

Every move in prepatch Pikachu's kit was useful in some, frequently unexpected, way. d-smash could be used as an anti-air against short-ranged characters for instance (try a pivot d-smash sometimes against a falling Mario to see what I mean)... Add to this that he was so small and hard to pressure, and you had the makings of a great character. Yes, tjolt was shieldable, Quick Attack was punishable, falling b-air was punishable, edgeguarding was avoidable... BUT you had to expect these options in order to deal with them. You had to be ready to react to the Quick Attack to hit Pikachu during its endlag. And because you had so many options to watch out for, expecting a particular option wasn't always feasible, not if you also wanted to maintain offensive pressure.

The problem was that this plan of mixups, mixups, mixups didn't work out against some really dominant options like Ness' airdodge -> n-air or Luigi's dashgrab. Some characters didn't care if Pikachu's entire kit was usable when their own options offered so much more reward--as long as they won *sometimes*, they won overall. So his bad matchups were characters who got higher reward while having good/workable neutral games: Mario, Luigi, Ness, Fox.

In 1.1.1, Pikachu's matchup spread got much better. is the big one, and not just because he was nerfed... f-smash gaining 10 frames of safety on shield means that you can win neutral in this matchup pretty much by spamming f-smash (you already kind of could before but if Luigi got in even once it was death, and now that's been toned down a little). d-air, d-tilt, Tjolts and QA (3 of which are safer now) make the gameplan of "never let Luigi touch you" very feasible. is so much easier now that you have to worry less about getting shieldgrabbed. Ness still has some nice anti-Pika tools (magnet, PKT vs. QA, huge aerials), but that shieldgrab is the biggest part of the MU for such a light character. is way easier. The problem with the MU was that you could never Quick Attack, but the +7 frames of shield safety on QA gives you some freedom in that department (Fox can still drop shield -> DA though if you misspace). And a better f-air/d-air against a character vulnerable to SH aerials in the first place is great.

In these 3 MUs, Pikachu gained tools that boost his performance in specific ways. The f-smash boost on shield feels almost custom-tailored to fix the Luigi matchup, for instance. I couldn't have asked for a better buff in the Luigi MU, really. And I can say the same of QA's extra shield safety vs. Fox (well, unless you want to increase the distance of QA for me, pls Sakurai ). I would say that these MUs are now even at the least.

The MU didn't change much due to the patch, other than Pikachu just generally getting better, but ESAM vs. Ally showed that the MU was possible even prepatch (set count ESAM-Ally was 3-2, 1-3, 1-3). It's probably not too bad, but I would say at this point that Mario is Pikachu's only losing MU remaining from his old losing MUs.

Other characters did get better too, of course. Thankfully, Ryu, ZSS, and Sonic (three of the big top tier winners) are not MUs that Pika has ever struggled with, and in fact he probably maintains the advantage against 2/3 of these characters (I don't know how much better Sonic got... that MU has always been contentious anyway). Robin and Lucas and random other mid tiers who were buffed also aren't too scary in theory, just because Pika already won those MUs convincingly before.

The only "new" matchups I'd really be worried about postpatch are and . Thankfully super-safe d-air is a REALLY good tool against MK (whose immunity to some SH aerials due to height has been annoying for Pika), and QA can be difficult for Ike to punish consistently (he has the mobility to do it, but his airspeed is hampered by a poor jumpsquat (7 frames), and his great initial dash is offset by poor run speed and poor dash distance--it's worth noting that Ike's pivot grab is disgustingly good though). Pikachu has to work hard in both MUs to make sure that he doesn't get murdered, but I don't think it'll be too bad. Once we see the MUs played out at high level, I think that Ike vs. Pika will probably end up being even; MK vs. Pika may end up slightly in MK's favor.

So I'd say Pikachu is overall way way way better, completely viable as a solo main after this patch, and doesn't have any matchup worse than 45:55, and that too probably only against Mario and MK. Two big thumbs up from me for this patch.

Also Shaya the tournament last night was prepatch, so Nairo's prepatch ZSS lost to prepatch Villager and prepatch MK, not indicative of anything about the buffs/nerfs. ZSS is way better after the patch; her buffs were pretty insane.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

This patch has got me wondering, how much does Lucas gain from the new shield stun? Would he now be able to apply serious pressure to shields like his other incarnations?

 

[Rizen]

Toon Link actually benefits from shorter throwing distance because it means there's less distance for him to close at optimal bomb range (hitting only the explosion and not directly making contact with the bomb).

Ideally you want to hit the opponent with the bomb, that way the explosion only hurts them.

That said, Toon Link having an item smash throw equal to Link's normal throw also means his normal throw is even shorter, which can be a good thing. Now, I personally like longer-range bombs for the ranged pressure applications, but Toon Link's bombs can be used effectively against closer foes than Link's can and that's definitely a plus for Toon Link.

Bombs count as an active hitbox (which triggers the explosion) as soon as they leave Link's hand. If they hit the opponent the explosion will not affect Link. He can throw them as close or far as they'll hit.
Link does stand taller than TL so bombs can go over small characters next to Link.


@ thread most of the Link forums agree that the increased shield stun buffs him slightly. Link's Zair and CQC are safer on shields and that's a big boost for his spacing.

 

[Nu~]

This patch has got me wondering, how much does Lucas gain from the new shield stun? Would he now be able to apply serious pressure to shields like his other incarnations?

He gains so much. Bair and fair are safe, I know that much.

@Reserved can fill you in in the details.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Ideally you want to hit the opponent with the bomb, that way the explosion only hurts them.

Bombs count as an active hitbox (which triggers the explosion) as soon as they leave Link's hand. If they hit the opponent the explosion will not affect Link. He can throw them as close or far as they'll hit.
Link does stand taller than TL so bombs can go over small characters next to Link.


@ thread most of the Link forums agree that the increased shield stun buffs him slightly. Link's Zair and CQC are safer on shields and that's a big boost for his spacing.

If you hit with only the explosion and not the bomb itself, it deals more damage, thus meaning more hitlag and hitstun, and more shield damage, shieldlag, and shieldstun if it hits a shield. As such, hitting with only the explosion is advantageous to Link/Toon Link.

 

[FullMoon]

I might pick up Lucas again now that the patch buffed him. I was experimenting with Peach but Lucas is going to be a lot easier for me to play with.