Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Mario766]

Not even Luigi can combo all the time. That isn't the point, the characters who are good basically follow this trend

Combo until kill percents

When at kill percents, they link into kill options or have 50/50s based on reads or DI. This is the case for ZSS, Sheik, Pre-Patch Luigi, Diddy.

Other combo orientated characters combo until kill percents, but require a read that isn't based on another attack or are just short of getting a combo kill.

Mario is in this book. He doesn't have kill combos, but is amazing at racking up damage, but he requires a hard read because killing is not his forte.


Ike, on the other hand, racks up damage with short combos or strings, kills with a regular attack and gets 50/50s and SOMETIMES combo kills off up throw or down tilt.

There's also Meta Knight, who gets follow-ups that can either rack up damage or straight up kill you.

 

[Browny]

Elusive footage of Japanese Mewtwo (Game 2)

Isn't it amazing when people actually play a character instead of complaining all the time

things get done, and the world moves forward.

 

[Mario766]

Nairo was playing Mewtwo vs Smasher in pools at the weekly today.

 

[Browny]

Also regarding Docs sheildbreak combo, there is like... 8-10 or so frames for DK to drop shield after the bair

so whoever made that video should feel bad.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Not even Luigi can combo all the time. That isn't the point, the characters who are good basically follow this trend

Combo until kill percents

When at kill percents, they link into kill options or have 50/50s based on reads or DI. This is the case for ZSS, Sheik, Pre-Patch Luigi, Diddy.

Other combo orientated characters combo until kill percents, but require a read that isn't based on another attack or are just short of getting a combo kill.

Mario is in this book. He doesn't have kill combos, but is amazing at racking up damage, but he requires a hard read because killing is not his forte.


Ike, on the other hand, racks up damage with short combos or strings, kills with a regular attack and gets 50/50s and SOMETIMES combo kills off up throw or down tilt.

There's also Meta Knight, who gets follow-ups that can either rack up damage or straight up kill you.

Not to sound nitpicky

But how can you talk about characters with kill followups and not mention fox.

Were talking about a character who can setup a kill confirm from literally almost every attack in his moveset at high %. Some of them being 100% guaranteed.

I'm just saying

 

[Radical Larry]

Not even Luigi can combo all the time. That isn't the point, the characters who are good basically follow this trend

Combo until kill percents

When at kill percents, they link into kill options or have 50/50s based on reads or DI. This is the case for ZSS, Sheik, Pre-Patch Luigi, Diddy.

Other combo orientated characters combo until kill percents, but require a read that isn't based on another attack or are just short of getting a combo kill.

Mario is in this book. He doesn't have kill combos, but is amazing at racking up damage, but he requires a hard read because killing is not his forte.


Ike, on the other hand, racks up damage with short combos or strings, kills with a regular attack and gets 50/50s and SOMETIMES combo kills off up throw or down tilt.

There's also Meta Knight, who gets follow-ups that can either rack up damage or straight up kill you.

By your logic, this applies well to Link, who can do pretty much all of what you listed obviously.

 

[Megamang]

Speaking of fox, his perfect pivot being massive is gonna be very helpful as dash to shield is way worse. Learn your PPs guys, its not that hard and it opens all kinds of options and spacing tricks.

 

[Mario766]

By your logic, this applies well to Link, who can do pretty much all of what you listed obviously.

Link still has to get around his below average grab and having slow projectiles, to get to those 'set-ups.' I'd put Toon Link on that list faster than Link.

Fox has damage racking, but they are based on weight or bad DI, like the F-Air off throw follow-up. His main way to get a kill set-up usually rely on a N-Air or down air into up smash. Besides that he doesn't have really any super good kill set-ups, or 50/50s since his throws don't go into anything and he doesn't have a super good move to set-up up air/up smash outside of that.


No that isn't the full list, I just put some big examples and threw Ike in there because he's the character I play. SORRY

 

[Ffamran]

Too lazy to rewrite this, so going to quote it over.

Using @LordWilliam1234's data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/edit?pli=1#gid=1103436121... First number is on-shield and second is after shield drop. Late hits of dash attack and Side Smash haven't been found nor has the second hits of Utilt and Up Smash since they shouldn't be worse on-shield... Both numbers of Utilt and Up Smash also match and since they both do 4%... Yeah... I'm going to say take those numbers with skepticism. Aerials I'm also assuming are all on landing without auto-canceling.

Note: It's 1.0.8 since I never reentered the numbers for rapid jab finisher, Up Smash's second hit, Fair, and Dair's clean hit that were affected by the hit lag and shield interactions in 1.1.0. Kind of doesn't really matter now, so whatever.

Spoiler: Falco on-shield comparison

Move|1.0.8|1.1.1|Difference
Jab 1|-19 / -12|-17 / -10| +2
Jab 2|-22 / -15|-19 / -12|+3
Rapid Jab Finisher|-39 / -32|-31 / -24|+8
Dash Attack|-28 / -21|-24 / -17|+4
Utilt (first hit-only)|-23 / -16|-27 / -20|-4?
Ftilt|-18 / -11|-14 / -7|+4
Dtilt (12% hit)| -16 / -9|-12 / -5|+4
Up Smash (first hit-only)|-36 / -31|-27 / -20|+9
Side Smash|-27 / -20|-21 / -14|+6
Down Smash|-34 / -27|-29 / -22|+5
Nair (Last Hit)|-14 / -7|-11 / -4|+3
Uair|-12 / -5|-8 / -1|+4
Fair (Landing)|-29 / -22|-14 / -7|+15
Bair|-10 / -3|-6 / +1|+4
Bair (Late)|-13 / -6|-9 / -2|+4
Dair|-28 / -21|-14 / -7|+7
Dair (Late)|-20 / -13|-20/ -13|0
Blaster|-40 / -33|-40 / -33|0
Reflector|-43 / -36|-41 / -34|+2

Questionable things aside from Utilt and Up Smash, Fair landing, Dair's late hit, Blaster, and Reflector. Fair landing gaining +15 seems kind of extreme, but it's still relatively unsafe on-shield and with frame syncing... yeah... The thing is that it only does 3% which shouldn't lead to such a massive gain even if its hit lag of 2.0x is now "normal" with the shielder if I understood the changes to shields correctly. Dair's late hit should have some change as well, but it's apparently 0? It does 8% which should be like a +3. Blaster and Reflector should have worse frame advantage due to the changes with how electric moves work on shields; it's a 0.5x to whatever hit lag modifier. In this case, Blaster would be 0.6x and Reflector would be 1.0x instead of 0.1x and 0.5x.

Edit: Apparently not for electric moves: http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-48#post-20233216.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Too many numbers! Fixed? Up Smash. Utilt's still weird... Still don't know if either is the first or second hit. Up Smash might be the second hit, but Utilt since a 5% should be +2 instead of -4.

TL;DR version: There's some missing data, late hits of dash attack and Side Smash, Dtilt's 11% and 9% hits - probably just -1 of what the 12% has -, second hits of Utilt and Up Smash?, and some kind of wonky stuff with Blaster and Reflector not being worse despite what being found with electric moves on-shield, and late Dair apparently didn't change for whatever reason - should probably be +3 for its difference. Biggest things would be his Ftilt being more safe on-shield, Dtilt even more safe on-shield, and Falco's aerials being all safe-ish even Dair's clean hit. Also, dash attack is still hilariously unsafe on-shield. Thanks for doubling the startup, developers. They could have just gave us Brawl ZSS's frame 6 dash attack... Meanwhile, Fox and his dash attack...

Edit: Forgot about this. So, is Falco one of the winners of this patch? Personally, to him only, probably yes. I say probably since this is a universal change that benefited and harmed all characters and Falco's been riding on universal changes with patch 1.1.0 - probably targeted at Ryu to make his hit lag not atrociously painful on shields - and patch 1.1.1 - probably targeted at Ryu again and maybe everyone else.

Is he one of the losers of this patch? Probably. Falco's low mobility and lack of approach options more or less made shields useful for him just as it was useful for everyone else. At the same time, because he can challenge shields a bit better now, it's a slight counter or reversal. The main issue is his out of shield options aren't considered that great - confirm or deny Shaya since I don't know - and you can thank the developers for one of them: doubled startup on dash attack. Falco was already reliant on movement to do anything with shielding helping out. Now he's even more reliant on movement in a way like a boxer will usually prefer to be on the move rather than sitting and blocking.

In my opinion and from what the numbers showed: he's neither a loser or a winner. Time will tell since this is a new thing people will have to learn, but Falco benefited and was harmed by this patch as everyone was. With no other changes even if they're not as commonly used like custom changes, Falco has nothing to edge him to winner or loser like Luigi could be said to be a loser of this patch because of both shield stun changes and his change to D-throw or how Ryu could be said to be a winner as his hit lag modifiers on all his moves more or less were negated on shields.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I wanna go on record that I shield broke Vinnie's Sheik in tournament a few days back. Twice in one game.

**** is legit and scary as ****.

Going for the shield break is def viable at high level with Ryu.

 

[TurboLink]

Link still has to get around his below average grab and having slow projectiles, to get to those 'set-ups.' I'd put Toon Link on that list faster than Link.

Fox has damage racking, but they are based on weight or bad DI, like the F-Air off throw follow-up. His main way to get a kill set-up usually rely on a N-Air or down air into up smash. Besides that he doesn't have really any super good kill set-ups, or 50/50s since his throws don't go into anything and he doesn't have a super good move to set-up up air/up smash outside of that.


No that isn't the full list, I just put some big examples and threw Ike in there because he's the character I play. SORRY

Toon Link's projectiles are slower than Link's. What in the world are you talking about?

 

[Sir Tundra]

Link still has to get around his below average grab and having slow projectiles, to get to those 'set-ups.' I'd put Toon Link on that list faster than Link.

Fox has damage racking, but they are based on weight or bad DI, like the F-Air off throw follow-up. His main way to get a kill set-up usually rely on a N-Air or down air into up smash. Besides that he doesn't have really any super good kill set-ups, or 50/50s since his throws don't go into anything and he doesn't have a super good move to set-up up air/up smash outside of that.


No that isn't the full list, I just put some big examples and threw Ike in there because he's the character I play. SORRY

Well there's also pivot forward tilt which is a really good move for fox in fact many fox mains have been using that move as of late for approaching. Pivot forward tilt can actually setup to up smash much like n-air and down air. So you might wanna add that to main ways to get a kill setup.

Since this isn't a full list then I suppose it's all good

 

[Mario766]

Toon Link's projectiles are slower than Link's. What in the world are you talking about?

Same frame, actually.

Toon Link gets better conversions from it, and is more mobile.

 

[Jiggsbomb]

I believe that Diddy have more potential now then ever before. Because it wasn't long ago when everyone and their grandmothers played Diddy kong just because of a small combo. But now when Hoo ha is practically gone. Only the skilled and dedicated diddy players will be left. So I would say that the current status for Diddy is that he has an extremley high potential over all.

 

[bc1910]

And now Greninja has somewhat of a D-throw combo, but people still don't give a damn about the tongue-scarfed frog.

Only in NA. He's getting regular top 16 placements in Japan and Europe and has actually won stuff in both regions.

 

[thehard]

Nairo lost to MJG and AbadangoKnight at that pre-TBH MI local... thoughts? They're both shorties and Villager kinda wrecks ZSS's neutral with his aerials. Your take Shaya ? Nairo doesn't run into either of those characters in his region so he may have gone into both sets underprepared, but then Ranai was also cruel to him at Umebura.

Also go watch ESAM v Ally GFs from that same tournament. That's the penultimate hurrah before a potentially very different game. I can't believe how skilled those two are. I'm kinda scared that this was all done on a pre-patch WiiU too lol

 

[Mario766]

Hit his shield and he loses it.

To keep it he has to not shield, which all you have to do is poke him once and he loses it instant.

This is good for him for a bug but it's not game breaking since he is forced to do something that he will be punished for not doing. Shield might have gotten nerfed this patch but trust me, he will need to shield at some point.

Diddy also gets the bug for basically everything.

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/649812516344754180

Ike jabs Diddy, he drops shield and gets hit: -> Activates

Ike shield pokes Diddy with Aether -> Activates.


EVERYTHING ****ing activates it. That should never be allowed in a tournament.

 

[Shaya]

Why is this thread turning into a rule set argument?
We have dedicated rule set threads, and this glitch probably deserves it's own thread to discuss it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-grab-immunity-glitch-1-1-1.419325/

 

[Thinkaman]

The hitlag multiplier's application to projectiles changes the theorycraft. This hurts these projectiles:

Falco Blaster #1 (0.1x)
Fox Blaster #2 (0.3x)
G&W Chef #3 (0.5x/0.1x/0.0x)
Greninja charged Shuriken #1 repeating hits (0.6x)
Bowser Fire Roar (0.5x)
Bowser Jr. Up-b 2 initial hit on group or aerial sourspot (0.5x)
Bowser Jr. Up-b 3 explosion (0.8x)
Link Arrow #1/3 (0.8x)
Charizard Fire Breath #1 (0.5x)
Luigi Fireball late hit (0.5x)
Luigi Iceball (0.8x)
Mario Fireball/Doc Capsule (0.3x)
Mario Fast Fireball/Doc Fast Capsule (0.0x)
Mii Gunner Grenade (0.3x repeating hits, 0.6x final hit)
Villager dash attack (0.6x)
Pac-Man Meteor Trampoline projectile hitbox (0.8x)
Pikachu Thunderjolt (0.45x total)
Pikachu Thunder #1/3 initial hit (0.0x total)
Robin Arcfire #1/2/3 repeating hits + #1/2 final hit (0.5x)
Mega Man uair (0.2x)
Mega Man f-smash (0.3x)
Mega Man Crash Bomber explosion (0.3x)
Mega Man side-b #3 initial hit (0.7x)
Mega Man Leaf Shield #1/3 shield hits (0.5x)
Mega Man Leaf Shield #1/2/3 thrown hit (0.3x)
Mega Man Tornado Hold (0.8x/0.3x)
Rosalina Shooting Star Bit (0.2x)
Luma fair (0.3x)
Luma uair, late utilt, star bits #1 (0.5x)
Samus Bomb #1/3 initial hitbox (0.6x)
Samus Bomb #1/2 explosion (0.3x)
Samus Bomb #3 explosion (0.5x)
Sheik Needle Storm (0.8x)
ZSS Paralyzer #3 initial hits (0.6x total)
Toon Link Boomerang #2 initial hit (0.5x)
Toon Link Boomerang #3 (0.8x)
Toon Link Arrow #2/3 (0.5x)
WFT Hula Hoops #1 (0.0x)
WFT Hula Hoops #3 initial hits (0.5x)
WFT Condensed Sun Salutation uncharged (0.8x)
WFT Sweeping Sun Salutation (0.8x)
Yoshi up-b #1/3 hit (0.3x)
Yoshi up-b #1 explosion (0.3x)

...and helps these: (Grey attacks don't actually have a difference due to the way things are calculated)

DDD Gordo #1/2/3 (1.5x)
DHD Discus #1/2/3 hit (2.0x)
DHD Discus #1/3 shots (2.0x)
DHD Discus #3 explode (2.0x)
DHD ZZS Shot (1.2x)
DHD Gunmen #1/2 (1.5x)
DHD Gunmen #3 (2.0x)
Fox Blaster #3 (1.2x)
G&W Chef #2 (1.8x/1.5x)
Greninja uncharged Shuriken #3 (1.5x)
Greninja charged Shuriken #1 final hit (1.5x)
Bowser Jr. Up-b 2 aerial sweetspot (2.0x)
Link Arrow #2 (1.7x)
Charizard Flare Blitz explosion (1.5x)
Charizard Blast Burn explosion (2.0x)
Lucas PK Thunder (1.5x total)
Mario Scalding FLUDD (1.2x)
Mii Brawler Iron Ball (1.5x)
Mii Gunner Flame Pillar final hit (1.5x)
Mii Gunner Charge Shot max charge (1.05x total)
Mii Gunner f-smash final hit (2.0x)
Villager Explosive Ballon Trip (2.0x) --- remember, these hitboxes were significantly nerfed in size this patch!
Villager Giant Timber tree fall (2.0x)
Pac-Man default hydrant fall and hydrant projectile (1.5x)
Pac-Man On-Fire Hydrant flame initial hit (1.2x)
Pikachu Thunder Wave (2.5x/2.1x/1.5x)
Pikachu Thundershock (1.5x total)
Pikachu Thunder #1/3 later hits (1.5x total)
Olimar Explosive Pikmin Pluck (1.5x)
Robin Elwind #3 initial hit (2.0x)
Robin Arcfire #3 final hit (2.0x)
Robin (El)Thunder (1.5x total)
Robin (El)Thunder+ (2.25x total)
Robin Speed (El)Thunder (1.2x total)
Robin Arcthunder(+) (1.5x/0.6x/3.0x total)
Robin Speed Arcthunder (1.5x/0.6x/2.25x total)
Robin (Speed) Thoron(+) (1.5x total)
ROB max charge beam #1/2/3 (1.3x)
Luma Jabs 1/2/3, dash attack, bair, dair, dtilt, usmash, dsmash (1.5x)
Luma nair, fsmash (1.7x)
Luma Jab finisher, initial utilt (2.0x)
Ryu blue Hadoken (1.4x)
Ryu red Hadoken (0.25x/1.8x)
Samus Charge Shot #1/2/3 sub-max charge (1.5x total)
Samus Charge Shot #1/2 max charge (1.05x total)
Samus Charge Shot #3 max charge (3.3x total)
Sheik Penetrating Needles (1.1x) --- remember, these got a shield damage nerf
Sheik Paralyzing Needle (2.0x)
ZSS Paralyzer #1 (2.0x)
ZSS Paralyzer #2 charged (1.2x total)
ZSS Paralyzer #3 final hit (1.4x)
Toon Link Boomerang #2 late hit (1.2x)
Wario Bike #3 (1.2x)
WFT Jumbo Hoops (1.5x)
WFT Condensed Sun Salutation charged (1.5x)
Yoshi down-b 2 star (1.5x)
Yoshi up-b #3 explosion (1.5x)
Zelda Phantom #1/2/3 max charge 2nd hit (1.2x)

 

[bc1910]

Greninja uncharged Shuriken #1 repeating hits (0.6x)

What does this mean?

Greninja's uncharged default shuriken doesn't have repeating hits.

I assume you meant the charged variant?

And if so do you know how Greninja's uncharged default shuriken is affected? Does it have a hitlag multiplier of 1.0?

 

[Thinkaman]

I assume you meant the charged variant?

And if so do you know how Greninja's uncharged default shuriken is affected? Does it have a hitlag multiplier of 1.0?

Yeah and yeah.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah and yeah.

Thanks.

Do you know how many frames of hitlag you suffer when hit by a regular move (hitlag multiplier 1.0)? I read it was about 12 frames but I don't actually know.

If anyone could tell me how long hitlag is in this game I'd appreciate it.

 

[Lavani]

Thanks.

Do you know how many frames of hitlag you suffer when hit by a regular move (hitlag multiplier 1.0)? I read it was about 12 frames but I don't actually know.

If anyone could tell me how long hitlag is in this game I'd appreciate it.

　INT{(Base damage÷2.6＋5)×Hitlag modifier×Element}

With Element being 1.5 for electric and presumably 1 for everything else. On shield, hitlag modifiers above 1 are divided by 1.25 with a ceiling at 1.

For an uncharged Water Shuriken (3%, x1.0), there should be 6 frames of hitlag.

 

[Ravine]

Speaking of fox, his perfect pivot being massive is gonna be very helpful as dash to shield is way worse. Learn your PPs guys, its not that hard and it opens all kinds of options and spacing tricks.

How do you do that?

 

[bc1910]

　INT{(Base damage÷2.6＋5)×Hitlag modifier×Element}

With Element being 1.5 for electric and presumably 1 for everything else. On shield, hitlag modifiers above 1 are divided by 1.25 and floored at 1.

For an uncharged Water Shuriken (3%, x1.0), there should be 6 frames of hitlag.

Thanks.

But didn't this patch just change shield hitlag mechanics? So that 1.25 divider thing goes out the window and the shielded suffers the same hitlag as the attacker?

 

[Nu~]

The hitlag multiplier's application to projectiles changes the theorycraft. This hurts these projectiles:

Falco Blaster #1 (0.1x)
Fox Blaster #2 (0.3x)
G&W Chef #3 (0.5x/0.1x/0.0x)
Greninja charged Shuriken #1 repeating hits (0.6x)
Bowser Fire Roar (0.5x)
Bowser Jr. Up-b 2 initial hit on group or aerial sourspot (0.5x)
Bowser Jr. Up-b 3 explosion (0.8x)
Link Arrow #1/3 (0.8x)
Charizard Fire Breath #1 (0.5x)
Luigi Fireball late hit (0.5x)
Luigi Iceball (0.8x)
Mario Fireball/Doc Capsule (0.3x)
Mario Fast Fireball/Doc Fast Capsule (0.0x)
Mii Gunner Grenade (0.3x repeating hits, 0.6x final hit)
Villager dash attack (0.6x)
Pac-Man Meteor Trampoline projectile hitbox (0.8x)
Pikachu Thunderwave (0.45x total)
Pikachu Thunder #1/3 initial hit (0.0x total)
Robin Arcfire #1/2/3 repeating hits + #1/2 final hit (0.5x)
Mega Man uair (0.2x)
Mega Man f-smash (0.3x)
Mega Man Crash Bomber explosion (0.3x)
Mega Man side-b #3 initial hit (0.7x)
Mega Man Leaf Shield #1/3 shield hits (0.5x)
Mega Man Leaf Shield #1/2/3 thrown hit (0.3x)
Mega Man Tornado Hold (0.8x/0.3x)
Rosalina Shooting Star Bit (0.2x)
Luma fair (0.3x)
Luma uair, late utilt, star bits #1 (0.5x)
Samus Bomb #1/3 initial hitbox (0.6x)
Samus Bomb #1/2 explosion (0.3x)
Samus Bomb #3 explosion (0.5x)
Sheik Needle Storm (0.8x)
ZSS Paralyzer #3 initial hits (0.6x total)
Toon Link Boomerang #2 initial hit (0.5x)
Toon Link Boomerang #3 (0.8x)
Toon Link Arrow #2/3 (0.5x)
WFT Hula Hoops #1 (0.0x)
WFT Hula Hoops #3 initial hits (0.5x)
WFT Condensed Sun Salutation uncharged (0.8x)
WFT Sweeping Sun Salutation (0.8x)
Yoshi up-b #1/3 hit (0.3x)
Yoshi up-b #1 explosion (0.3x)

...and helps these:

DDD Gordo #1/2/3 (1.5x)
DHD Discus #1/2/3 hit (2.0x)
DHD Discus #1/3 shots (2.0x)
DHD Discus #3 explode (2.0x)
DHD ZZS Shot (1.2x)
DHD Gunmen #1/2 (1.5x)
DHD Gunmen #3 (2.0x)
Fox Blaster #3 (1.2x)
G&W Chef #2 (1.8x/1.5x)
Greninja uncharged Shuriken #3 (1.5x)
Greninja charged Shuriken #1 final hit (1.5x)
Bowser Jr. Up-b 2 aerial sweetspot (2.0x)
Link Arrow #2 (1.7x)
Charizard Flare Blitz explosion (1.5x)
Charizard Blast Burn explosion (2.0x)
Lucas PK Thunder (1.5x total)
Mario Scalding FLUDD (1.2x)
Mii Brawler Iron Ball (1.5x)
Mii Gunner Flame Pillar final hit (1.5x)
Mii Gunner Charge Shot max charge (1.05x total)
Mii Gunner f-smash final hit (2.0x)
Villager Explosive Ballon Trip (2.0x) --- remember, these hitboxes were significantly nerfed in size this patch!
Villager Giant Timber tree fall (2.0x)
Pac-Man default hydrant fall and hydrant projectile (1.5x)
Pac-Man On-Fire Hydrant flame initial hit (1.2x)
Pikachu Thunder Wave (2.5x/2.1x/1.5x)
Pikachu Thundershock (1.5x total)
Pikachu Thunder #1/3 later hits (1.5x total)
Olimar Explosive Pikmin Pluck (1.5x)
Robin Elwind #3 initial hit (2.0x)
Robin Arcfire #3 final hit (2.0x)
Robin (El)Thunder (1.5x total)
Robin (El)Thunder+ (2.25x total)
Robin Speed (El)Thunder (1.2x total)
Robin Arcthunder(+) (1.5x/0.6x/3.0x total)
Robin Speed Arcthunder (1.5x/0.6x/2.25x total)
Robin (Speed) Thoron(+) (1.5x total)
ROB max charge beam #1/2/3 (1.3x)
Luma neutral-b #3
Luma Jabs 1/2/3, dash attack, bair, dair, dtilt, usmash, dsmash (1.5x)
Luma nair, fsmash (1.7x)
Luma Jab finisher, initial utilt (2.0x)
Ryu blue Hadoken (1.4x)
Ryu red Hadoken (0.25x/1.8x)
Samus Charge Shot #1/2/3 sub-max charge (1.5x total)
Samus Charge Shot #1/2 max charge (1.05x total)
Samus Charge Shot #3 max charge (3.3x total)
Sheik Penetrating Needles (1.1x) --- remember, these got a shield damage nerf
Sheik Paralyzing Needle (2.0x)
ZSS Paralyzer #1 (2.0x)
ZSS Paralyzer #2 charged (1.2x total)
ZSS Paralyzer #3 final hit (1.4x)
Toon Link Boomerang #2 late hit (1.2x)
Wario Bike #3 (1.2x)
WFT Jumbo Hoops (1.5x)
WFT Condensed Sun Salutation charged (1.5x)
Yoshi down-b 2 star (1.5x)
Yoshi up-b #3 explosion (1.5x)
Zelda Phantom #1/2/3 max charge 2nd hit (1.2x)

So bonus fruit isn't affected. Why?

 

[Lavani]

Thanks.

But didn't this patch just change shield hitlag mechanics? So that 1.25 divider thing goes out the window and the shielded suffers the same hitlag as the attacker?

That's what I thought before, but when looking at Luma hitlag on shield tonight I learned the 1.25 divider is still there. Both sides suffer the same hitlag when projectiles aren't involved though, yes.

 

[Thinkaman]

So bonus fruit isn't effected. Why?

This doesn't include items, only projectile articles.

On shield, hitlag modifiers above 1 are divided by 1.25 and floored at 1.

That's what I thought before, but when looking at Luma hitlag on shield tonight I learned the 1.25 divider is still there. Both sides suffer the same hitlag when projectiles aren't involved though, yes.

Did you mean ceiling to 1?

 

[Nu~]

This doesn't include items, only projectile articles.

Ah, thanks.

 

[Lavani]

Did you mean ceiling to 1?

I did, thanks. Got mixed up by another post I read earlier.

 

[Thinkaman]

This means all the attacks with hitlag modifiers between 1.0 and 1.25 haven't actually changed their on-block timings. I will go flag this in my list.

So the only real projectile/article winners are, in my opinionated order:

1. WFT Jumbo Hoop + Weighted Header
2. Robin Thunder (all)
3. Luma
4. Duck Hunt Gunman + Discus
5. Pikachu Thunder Wave
6. Ryu Hadokens

 

[Shaya]

Okay, I'm going to make some big statements.

I could stipulate Sheik isn't no.1 in the game anymore. Or if she is, it's closer than it was before.

has gained massive amounts of safety on her neutral air and tether attack (zair), some already very potent spacing tools/pokes; zair in particular being a menace. Her up air, back air and nair are all -3 on shield now; zair is -5 and -3; on average for her class she has pretty high damage actions so the literal shield stun gains are great for her too.
Among other things her paralyzer is now a lot safer on shield if I'm reading things correctly; from the opponent receiving six frames of shield lag to ten frames, and 4 frames of shield stun from 1. Reading the data is a bit confusing but I'm not sure if it has an electric modifier either (0x14?... down smash doesn't share it at least); if it does that's amazing too. Paralyzer goes from 4 damage uncharged to 6. Although I'm not entirely sure, I think ZSS may have a guaranteed block string dash grab or very very close to. I don't think you can just hold shield against ZSS anymore... I think a lot of people are kinda already aware of that.
Side-B, a kinda niche move (can't tell if it's electric, can't even find the hitboxes for it), would be safer on shield anyway, and possibly the multi hits of the move can't be rolled through any more (the only reliable way most characters could punish it would be within the side-b range and rolling in). That's nice~

Mobility is becoming more important... so obviously there's . I think with a much safer moveset on shield coming from this patch (uhh +3 on landing with uair? LOL), likely more relevance for down-b usage and very likely stronger options for spin dash on shield than before (although I think the theory on handling it should still be relevant... there will now probably be a timing required to drop shield and reshield for a power shield to beat it now, which may actually make it easier to deal with, who knows?)

Yeah... I could see Sonic and ZSS being as good as Sheik this patch or better. They are ultimately hurt by turtling across the cast more than many top tiers. The two most mobile characters overall (sorry greninja *flip jump spike*) are probably laughing in the face of shields right now... I'm really feeling it~ (note: Shulk may be not trash now that buster is crazy [he benefits a lot from the changes overall]).
If someone were to say to me ZSS is no.1 in the game, I wouldn't think they were insane. Sonic despite all those nerfs is still such a strong and widely successful character, despite his lack of applicable hit lag modifiers I think just the sheer idea he's getting 1 or 2 extra (but it's more like 4 or 5) frames to jump or dash IN or away than before is bonkers.

also is getting a lot of love here, perhaps way too much love; quick attack being 7 frames safer on shield apparently is pretty notable. Thunder shock is apparently safer, forward air is safer, down air is safer...
In fact Pikachu now has sh rising forward air with an auto cancel at -4 (right?); this is IMO a drastic boon to his capabilities in neutral and for helping his out of shield game in general. I would assume the individual early hits of forward air now lock a shield properly, but if fair is fresh those prehits will be an extra frame of shield stun ^_^.
The new found safety of forward air, Pika's short stature and dash speed screams succinct solid game plan that should be good enough to win with; straight up. I think these are bigger gains than quick attack which I think most characters optimal punishes for were "nair" (or long hitbox something; maybe a dash attack) and not being in shield, but it's still something that is reducing the likelihood of punishment on a misuse significantly.

Mario and Luigi's fireballs are becoming worse off on shield. In Luigi's case a mid/longer range fire ball power shielded gained 2 frames of shield stun (3 non-PS'd) and is 3 frames less hit lag on block; I'm not sure if 1 frame less than before is enough to make a huge difference, but it could be the difference between a dash grab winning or losing to a jab.

feels better to handle than before despite me hyping up others, she could very well still be the Queen. But now I'm thinking that we have other top tiers on a similar page in terms of capabilities to her in pressure; more options are being born from things which are now a lot more potent. While Sheik is more potent this patch; she's just getting a flat 2 or 3 frames safer on just about everything, while others are looking at 4 or higher... for Pika and ZSS they're gaining +10 frames of advantage in some cases. It's insane.

S: (no order)

At least on a theory crafting level until further notice.

Olimar with 3 yellows though... *shudder*

 

[Smog Frog]

what about shadow ball and pk fire? were they unaffected?

 

[Thinkaman]

Luigi being replaced with a reasonable character also helps Pikachu's prospects.

I am so on board the ZSS hype train, but a bit more skeptical on Sonic.

How do we feel about Yoshi, Ness, and Rosalina in this brave new world?

what about shadow ball and pk fire? were they unaffected?

If I didn't list it, the hitlag multipler is 1.0x.

 

[adom4]

Isn't ZSS's side-B a fire move?

 

[Mr. Johan]

tbh I'd probably stick Mario in Top 3 now. Shieldstun goes a long way in securing even more safety for a character that can boast to have insane safety as it is. He can pretty much ransack your shield and keep beating at it, or chase you down if you bail, while throwing Fireballs to command pace of the game.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Luigi being replaced with a reasonable character also helps Pikachu's prospects.

I am so on board the ZSS hype train, but a bit more skeptical on Sonic.

How do we feel about Yoshi, Ness, and Rosalina in this brave new world?



If I didn't list it, the hitlag multipler is 1.0x.

I was playing some with Rosalina earlier. The shieldstun seems minorly helpful sometimes, not very helpful at other times. I can guess with fsmash better than before, nair to dtilt is an even better pressure string, I can land with bairs safely somewhat more often (but it's still easily unsafe if I'm not careful), usmash aimed at someone on a platform is now truly safe, and random tilts are just a bit better. However, guessing with usmash on the ground and being wrong is still very easy to punish, bad spacing in general is still unsafe, and amazingly dsmash works out about the same. When you factor in how this can be used against her, I think she ends up about holding steady.

However, the other side is that she got two significant buffs to some previously low value customs. The new Floaty Star Bit is awesome; the reduced endlag greatly enhances that move's utility, and I am seriously considering using it over Shooting Star Bit in a variety of match-ups now. I can put a FSB down as a ledge trap and recover fast enough to enforce the trap, and in a lot of neutral situations, I can put a FSB down and approach behind it a lot more viably now. That speed change on this move definitely crossed some power thresholds. Guardian Luma is also a lot better but still seems very situational; I can see some niche cases I would want to use it now though whereas before it was mostly just kinda bad (the increased size makes it a great low reward anti-air which isn't exactly an important addition to Rosa's kit but in niche match situations might be something you'd like to have, and the faster endlag lets her do some jump-ins with it even though it's generally a very risky thing to do).

The "nerf" to rapid jab is funny. I could visually see the lower hitlag (thanks to less damage); it makes it slightly slower to SDI out so Rosa should do the same damage in the end anyway. This change won't really impact her as a character overall, especially since better players often just avoided rapid jab completely.

 

[Mario766]

Time for Ike theorycrafting.

With the patch, Ike received enough shield stun to finally make him safely throw out hitboxes without being punished by faster opponents. For his numbers after everything it goes like this

N-Air -6
F-Air -2
B-Air -2
U-Air +1
D-Air - 5

These numbers take into account the new shield drop rules since F-Air and B-Air both deal more than the threshold, meaning the shield drop lag does go into effect after shield stun values, but N-Air does not cause this as it only deals 9 percent.

Another thing that we found out is that Jab 1 is basically safe, period. @San actually tested it and jab 2 comes out when someone would be able to act and either trade, or beat the option. This makes jab 1 an actual neutral option for Ike. With the slew of characters throwing out hitboxes, now, Ike can use his huge hitboxes more freely, though he can't crash into people like he NEVER could.Ike's gonna require strong spacing like he always does but I don't see his MUs getting worse besides...maybe ZSS? I feel like Sheik gets better now that she can't freely punish what we can do, and it may be easier to deal with her with the changes. Pikachu might be worse, but we still get huge value off disjoint and d-tilt being amazing with this patch, if it wasn't already so.

Luigi nerf is a huge boon as well LOL.


If people want to make sure my numbers are correct, please do.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I believe that Diddy have more potential now then ever before. Because it wasn't long ago when everyone and their grandmothers played Diddy kong just because of a small combo. But now when Hoo ha is practically gone. Only the skilled and dedicated diddy players will be left. So I would say that the current status for Diddy is that he has an extremley high potential over all.

*character gets worse*
"I think he's way better now"

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm going to post a 1.1.1 tier list so you don't have to. Feel free to use this as a continued diving-board into discussion on the brave new world. Please note that if you post your own list instead of doing that, a certain someone will rightfully drop a mod hammer on you.

(I only get to do this as a "reward" for all the data dump work, where "reward" is making a fool of myself with day-2-theory-based predictions.)

1v1, no customs, ordered within each level, ignoring Diddy glitch:








1v1, customs + Miis, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:







Percentile friendly:








Specific thoughts:

I agree that is hot on the heels of , but am not prepared to put them on their own tier. I feel like that gives more wrong signals than correct.
Not quite prepared to put in the upper pantheon quite yet. Maybe. I guess Shocking Cape and Scalding FLUDD can push him just over that edge.
I'm a skeptic atm. If he starts performing as well as some are predicting, then sure, I'll move him back up to where I had him previously.
is in, is down but not out. gets a slight boost, but will it manifest into results for once?
moves up in customs, but not quite enough to break into the upper levels.
seems less relevant every day, ruleset or not. Still formidable, but meh.
I'm a tad bullish on , and I have moving up a bit too.
is helped a ton in this patch, but I'm not sure I actually see him moving up. I need to see more results before I can visualize the impact of this theory. It's also possible that my long-standing optimism for Robin is just being gradually reconciled with a reality that reflects common opinion.
In contrast, I think this is a bad patch for , but I don't see him moving down much? I also continue to think is pretty decent.
I am waiting to see what happens to , , , and with these changes.
up, down. Pretty expected.
Respecting and slightly more. But not , not this time. MORE PHANTOM BUFFS PLEASE.